A sad state of affairs... by DarkArchon

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh lord. Does this person seem fit to return to peacetime society any time soon?

I personally would like to prosecute the higher-ups for their policies, rather than focus on the 'swords'. But saying you are merely a sword to avoid responsibility doesn't work: as the powerless grunt you are also the inevitable fall guy. If this author hasn't got the idea by now that the military OWNS him and his military brethren to use them at will, then he's thick as a brick. He volunteered to be a pawn of a heartless master. Now he blames reporters, US citizens, the fog of war, and the Geneva Convention.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 2:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Why does the writer think that he's defending "our freedom" by shooting Iraqis? Since WMD apparently never existed and Iraq was never a threat, one wonders (or SHOULD wonder) why we are in Iraq at all. I feel sorry for him. He's stuck in a situation that requires him and his fellow soldiers to make these split-second decisions. The NEJM study that I referred to in the Falujah thread details the human cost on BOTH sides of this war. When 28% of Marines admitted to being responsible for the death of non-combatants you have to wonder what sort of dehumanizing exeperience this is. A large number suffer from PTSD and depression, and when combined with the civilain casulties in Iraq, it leads me (and should lead everyone) to question WHY we're throwing so many people into the meat-grinder.

So as far as the "outrage" swirling around this incident- I think it's pretty synthetic. Anyone who has been following the occupation with a modicum of understanding would know by now that this happens a lot, and it's not the soldiers' fault. So I sympathize to some extent w/ the outrage of this solider, although I think the target is misplaced.

BTW- HK, I'm surprised that you see my interaction with Geezer as just a "war". The point that I keep trying to make, perhaps not too clearly, is that the Administration obfuscates, delays, defers, and outright lies at every stage: from the reason why we are there (WMD) to the pace of reconstruction (Every day in every way it's getting better and better.) to the cost in terms civilian dead ("We don't do body counts"), American soldiers killed (Bush won't allow photos of coffins coming home). If you want to find out what's happening in Falujah, or anyplace else in Iraq (or the USA for that matter) you won't find out from this government or this media. I think Geezer thinks I'm trying to crucify the grunt, when really the enlisted person is a victim too. I hope w/ my last post, Geezer understands that point.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 3:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Any opinions on the Iraqi elections?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 22, 2004 4:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh my

... but you asked!

I guess my quick answer is "At the point of a gun- at least for Sunnis".

My guess??? Allawi will win(unless he's assasinated b4 the election). He's backed by our military and represents 55-60% of the Iraqi population (the Sunnis quibble about census data but I think it's pretty clear that Shiites make up a majority of the population.)

Whether elections are held in the Sunni regions or not, the Sunnis will be under specific occupation and will feel disenfranchised. Once a Shiite government comes to power, Sunnis will feel even worse.

Just to go back to something I said many threads ago, creating a "unified, secular, democractic" goverment in Iraq is near-impossible. Shiites want nothing to do with "secular", Kurds will chafe at "unified" (if the government tries to gain control of northern oil fields- which I'm sure it will) and Sunnis have NO interest in "democratic" whatsoever (payback's a b*tch). USA Admin has apparently decided that they can live with 2 out of 3 and decided to drop the "secular" part of the plan. Still, at this point, I'm not sure that even 2 out of 3 will work. The Sunnis will feel totally disenfranchised under a Shiite government, and given the rather vengeful nature of Iraqi society the Sunnis will probably want to avenge their dead relatives, so the new government will face an active insurgency even after the elections.

But this prolly needs to be in a new thread.

EDITED TO ADD: I created a new thread, and I didn't even post my opinion! See, I'm recovering!!

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Monday, November 22, 2004 10:52 AM

SOUPCATCHER

For more background information (the point of view of the cameraman) you can read what he wrote on his own blog about the events of that day. Here's the link: http://www.kevinsites.net/ The entry is dated 21 November and is titled, "Open Letter to Devil Dogs of the 3.1" which I am inferring are the Marines that Kevin has been working alongside. Here is the lead in to his account:

Quote:
excerpted from http://www.kevinsites.net/
To Devil Dogs of the 3.1:

Since the shooting in the Mosque, I've been haunted that I have not been able to tell you directly what I saw or explain the process by which the world came to see it as well. As you know, I'm not some war zone tourist with a camera who doesn't understand that ugly things happen in combat. I've spent most of the last five years covering global conflict. But I have never in my career been a 'gotcha' reporter -- hoping for people to commit wrongdoings so I can catch them at it.

This week I've even been shocked to see myself painted as some kind of anti-war activist. Anyone who has seen my reporting on television or has read the dispatches on this website is fully aware of the lengths I've gone to play it straight down the middle -- not to become a tool of propaganda for the left or the right.

But I find myself a lightning rod for controversy in reporting what I saw occur in front of me, camera rolling.

It's time you to have the facts from me, in my own words, about what I saw -- without imposing on that Marine -- guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds about whether you think what I did was right or wrong. All the other armchair analysts don't mean a damn to me.

Here it goes.

What follows is an account of Kevin's activites on that day leading up to the incident and then what followed with respect to the videotaped footage and how it ended up being aired in the US. It looks to me like he is indeed trying to bend over backward to be fair in his reporting. I really have no comment to make on the situation since I have nothing in my own experience to compare it with and there is no way for me to get the viewpoints of everyone involved. So I'll just present this link as an additional piece of evidence and include the end of the detailed entry:

Quote:
excerpted from http://www.kevinsites.net
So here, ultimately, is how it all plays out: when the Iraqi man in the mosque posed a threat, he was your enemy; when he was subdued he was your responsibility; when he was killed in front of my eyes and my camera -- the story of his death became my responsibility.

The burdens of war, as you so well know, are unforgiving for all of us.

I pray for your soon and safe return.
Kevin 1:37 PM

On a side note, this is my first post in quite a while. I've been trying to limit the time I spend on-line since that number had gotten close to the two hour mark right before the elections. I've been ghosting a lot of the threads and am learning, as always, and will chime in every so often but probably will not get involved in too many long responses. That whole real world responsibility thing going on

. Time management... ugh.

* editted to add: I was wracking my memory for where I first saw the link to Kevin Site's blog so I could give proper credit. Probably dailyKos but I can't be sure. The link got posted in a couple of different places at around the same time so at this point it's a crap shoot.

Nature has infinite variety. Straight lines, not so much.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 2:10 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Soupcatcher- Time management? WHAT time management?

I have to reduce my time on the board too. Nice to see your around, if only for the moment. Thanks for link. As always, you provided us with valuable insight.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 2:54 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- HK, I'm surprised that you see my interaction with Geezer as just a "war". The point that I keep trying to make, perhaps not too clearly, is that the Administration obfuscates, delays, defers, and outright lies at every stage: from the reason why we are there (WMD) to the pace of reconstruction (Every day in every way it's getting better and better.) to the cost in terms civilian dead ("We don't do body counts"), American soldiers killed (Bush won't allow photos of coffins coming home)...

Hey there, Signy,

When I said that you and Geezer were embroiled in a "merry war" I was making a hifalutin Shakespearian reference to Much Ado About Nothing in which the two main characters are locked in a constant battle of wits that instantly upstages whatever's going on around them, but which is nonetheless perfectly entertaining to watch. Oh well...

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 3:28 PM

The thread title reminded me...

Check this out. I can't believe this is real. But it is.

According to a new Gallup poll, (site: http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107) "Only about a third of Americans believe that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is a scientific theory that has been well supported by the evidence, while just as many say that it is just one of many theories and has not been supported by the evidence. The rest say they don't know enough to say."

Furthermore, forty-five percent "also believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form about 10,000 years ago. A third of Americans are biblical literalists who believe that the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word."

Now I have nothing against religion serving as a guide for conscience and as a spiritual rock in a difficult world. But when it trumps scientific fact, when it contradicts science and people don't reexamine things, that really puts fear into my heart. Wow.

There is no such thing as a weed.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 5:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HK- I guess that reveals the state of my knowledge about Shakespeare!

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There are a lot of ppl in the USA who apparently can't deal with reality, and Bush is one of them. Their minds are in some imaginary land where God pats them on the back each night and tell them to take Iraq and, while they're at it, spread capitalism around the globe. (Having had religious upbringing, I could say something about "Thou shall not kill" and the money-changers in the temple... but I won't!

)

But stupidity is eventually self-cancelling, although natural selection works long-term for empires, business models, and religions. Fifty years ago, when we were the only industrial power left standing, we could get away with total irrationality. Today we're swimming with sharks, and if we slip ... well, I'm sure China, Russia, the EU and Brazil will all be happy to help us out. So to speak.

Just so you can say you heard it first: Bush will be remembered as the President under which our dollar was rejected as the global currency. And global warming will become a painful problem in 15 years. But hey, we're all OK because God loves us! He told me so this morning.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 5:21 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There are a lot of ppl in the USA who apparently can't deal with reality, and Bush is one of them. Their minds are in some imaginary land where God pats them on the back each night

As opposed to the reality were people reject the existence of God? There's billions of folk in the world who believe in one way or another. Not so many who disbelieve. I'd say dismissing the believers is just an elitists way of justifying their distaste for Democracy in action. They didn't vote your way so they must be stupid.

I've lived in 3 Red states counting PA. I've found the same thing. Democrats and Republicans sharing the same basic core moral values. Values they hold more dear then their class interests or elitist philisophical notions. Most are God, Family, and Football, all of which they manage to fit in on Sunday.

They do not adopt uniform politics. They are split between Republicans and Democrats and for the most part vote partisan interests in all things local. Why? Because local issues generally reflect and do not challenge those core beliefs. When those beliefs are challenged the Reds find themselves on the same side and vote accordingly.

I noticed Kerry remarking in an interview that he only lost by 50,000 votes. How can the Democrats ever expect to compete nationally when they discount the millions whose votes they did not get? Last tally I heard the difference was about 3 million.

I note for the record that this has happened before. Reagan Democrats, Tennessee is Bush Country (Gore lost that election at home, not in Florida), Dixiecrats, all those people on the Mayflower, the ones who went west, the ones who voted for a Lincoln, Truman, a couple Roosevelts, a Kennedy, and a crazy billionaire.

Now the liberal elitists, they been around awhile too. We called em Torries, we knew em as the slave holding plantation owners, we saw em justifying segregation, embracing communism and tellin people that trees birds were more important then jobs and families, tellin people how much to eat, how much to love, how to watch TV, and how to raise their kids. All with good intentions and always cursing the damned fool common folk for their stupidity.

Quote:

But stupidity is eventually self-cancelling, although natural selection works long-term for empires, business models, and religions. Fifty years ago, when we were the only industrial power left standing, we could get away with total irrationality. Today we're swimming with sharks, and if we slip ... well, I'm sure China, Russia, the EU and Brazil will all be happy to help us out. So to speak.

So would the Soviets, the Nazis, the Bath'ists, the slavers, and the Kings and Princes of Europe. The sharks have always been there and it aint luck thats saved us, its faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in our works, faith in our children, and faith in America. The people, not the academics and liberal institutions.

Perhaps you and your fellows would be more comfortable with a President Kerry or living in Canada or Europe. Thats fine. But get out of the way cause the rest of us are comin through. We're building this new world one day at a time. Don't worry though, when you and your European buddies need help...and you WILL need help sometime...we'll be there for you. Thats the American way.

H

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:06 AM

Item 1: Not all good Christians are pro-Bush.

Item 2: I'm not dismissing all believers everywhere when I say I am dismayed that some people are willing to hold certain beliefs even when they have been PROVEN IMPOSSIBLE by repeated, unbiased scientific testing.

Item 3: You don't have to be a fundamentalist or even believe in God to be a good person. Being a Christian doesn't require you to give up on scientific thought. Being a Christian doesn't automatically mean that God is on your side, because HUMANS ARE FALLIBLE.

And as for all of you just "comin' on through...?" Watch where you step. That soft stuff you guys are walking on? That's my civil rights.

There is no such thing as a weed.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I suspect my basic moral values would be very familiar to you. I believe in loving your neighbor as yourself even if you think he's misguided. I grieve for all dying children around the world. (Having gone through that special hell, it's quite a sore spot with me.) I believe in fairness. I believe that what you do for yourself dies with you, but what you do for others lives on. I believe in leaving the world a better place for our children- mine, yours, and everyone else's. I believe in preserving the rich biological heritage that we were born into, not because birds and trees are "more important" than people but because we need them all to prosper. (I consider that "enlightened self-interest"). I believe in not reducing our children's world to the most resistant weeds and pests and agricultural necessities.

I believe in individual responsibility and individual freedom. I believe that in order the make individual responsibility meaningful, no one should be forced to live under any form of tyranny, whether it be religious, economic, or political. I believe that if it is necessary to unite to fight tyranny, that does not detract from our individuality.

There are many people who do believe in God and use religious teachings to inform their moral choices. Then there are those who believe in God and use that belief to reject the reality that is so richly laid out before them. I realize that I'm a very small minority in the United States, even among Democrats, despite our shared values.

I'm sure we could take up endless hours arguing about the nature of religion and who will eventually "win", and I really don't want to waste my time or yours. But please note that China- the largest nation in the world and an up and coming superpower- is at heart an atheistic society. As my Confucian friends keep reminding me, Confucianism is a philosphy not a religion.

BTW- The way you lump slave-owning Tories along with segregationist, communists, and tree huggers is historically and contemporaneously inaccurate. Tree-huggers and communists have been (and still are) anti-segregation and anti-slavery. The only thing that ties them together is that YOU think that they're "elitists". Some of them are actually fighting for your economic future, your rights, your children's biological heritage but I doubt that you would see that.

BTW Unicorn- Hey, sorry about my dispariging remark about weeds!

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW Unicorn- Hey, sorry about my dispariging remark about weeds!

That's okay. I'm only sort of talking about plants when I say it. It's a very college-age thing to say, but I like it anyway.

There is no such thing as a weed.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:09 PM

SGTGUMP

Quote:
And do not think for an instant that they or any those that have served with them give a rats ass what you think they should do in a given situation. If you want to scream about a quarterbacks play calling on Monday night football, you go right ahead. But don’t sit there on you comfy sofa snacking away, and think that you have any clue about the actions of those military folks out in the field.

As a former Soldier I have to agree.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:13 PM

DARKARCHON

This letter was read on News Radio 1200 WOAI today by Jeff Boulton in San Antonio, Texas. I thought it provided a nice contrast to all the hype about the 'viscious, heartless Marines in Fallujah'.

**begin**

Letter From Fallujah
LAST UPDATE: 11/23/2004 6:58:04 PM
Posted By: Pamela Page

Dear Dad -

Just came out of the city and I honestly do not know where to start. I am afraid that whatever I send you will not do sufficient honor to the men who fought and took Fallujah.

Shortly before the attack, Task Force Fallujah was built. It consisted of Regimental Combat Team 1 built around 1st Marine Regiment and Regimental Combat Team 7 built around 7th Marine Regiment. Each Regiment consisted of two Marine Rifle Battalions reinforced and one Army mechanized infantry battalion. Regimental Combat Team 1 (RCT-1) consisted of 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion (3rd LAR), 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines (3/5); 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines (3/1)and 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry (2/7). RCT-7 was slightly less weighted but still a formidable force.

Cutting a swath around the city was an Army Brigade known as Blackjack. The Marine RCT's were to assault the city while Blackjack kept the enemy off of the backs of the assault force

The night prior to the actual invasion, we all moved out into the desert just north of the city. It was something to see. You could just feel the intensity in the Marines and Soldiers. It was all business.

As the day cleared, the Task Force began striking targets and moving into final attack positions. As the invasion force commenced its movement into attack positions, 3rd LAR led off RCT-1's offensive with an attack up a peninsula formed by the Euphrates River on the west side of the city. Their mission was to secure the Fallujah Hospital and the two bridges leading out of the city. They executed their tasks like clockwork and smashed the enemy resistance holding the bridges. Simultaneous to all of this, Blackjack sealed the escape routes to the south of the city.

As invasion day dawned, the net was around the city and the Marines and Soldiers knew that the enemy that failed to escape was now sealed.3/5 began the actual attack on the city by taking an apartment complex on the northwest corner of the city. It was key terrain as the elevated positions allowed the command to look down into the attack lanes. The Marines took the apartments quickly and moved to the rooftops and began engaging enemy that were trying to move into their fighting positions.

The scene on the rooftop was surreal. Machine gun teams were running boxes of ammo up 8 flights of stairs in full body armor and carrying up machine guns while snipers engaged enemy shooters. The whole time the enemy was firing mortars and rockets at the apartments.

Honest to God, I don't think I saw a single Marine even distracted by the enemy fire. Their squad leaders, and platoon commanders had them prepared and they were executing their assigned tasks.

As mentioned, 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry joined the Regiment just prior to the fight. In fact, they started showing up for planning a couple of weeks in advance. There is always a professional rivalry between the Army and the Marine Corps but it was obvious from the outset that these guys were the real deal. They had fought in Najaf and were eager to fight with the Regiment in Fallujah. They are exceptionally well led and supremely confident. 2/7 became our wedge. In short, they worked with 3rd Battalion, 1st >Marines.

We were limited in the amount of prep fires that we were allowed to fire on the city prior to the invasion. This was a point of some consternation to the forces actually taking the city. Our compensation was to turn to 2/7 and ask them to slash into the city and create as much turbulence as possible for 3/1 to follow.

Because of the political reality, the Marine Corps was also under pressure to "get it done quickly." For this reason, 2/7 and 3/1 became the penetration force into the city.

Immediately following 3/5's attack on the apartment buildings, 3/1 took the train station on the north end of the city. While the engineers blew a breach through the train trestle, the Cavalry soldiers poured through with their tanks and Bradley's and chewed an opening in the enemy defense. 3/1 followed them through until they reached a phase[line deep into the northern half of the city. The Marine infantry along with a few tanks then turned to the right and attacked the heart of the enemy defense.

The fighting was tough as the enemy had the area dialed in with mortars. 3/5 then attacked into the northwest corner of the city. This fight continued as both Marine rifle battalions clawed their way into the city on different axis.

There is an image burned into my brain that I hope I never forget. We came up behind 3/5 one day as the lead squads were working down the Byzantine streets of the Jolan area. An assault team of two Marines ran out from behind cover and put a rocket into a wall of an enemy strongpoint. Before the smoke cleared the squad behind them was up and moving through the hole and clearing the house. Just down the block another squad was doing the same thing. The house was cleared quickly and the Marines were running down the street to the next contact. Even in the midst of that mayhem, it was an awesome sight.

The fighting has been incredibly close inside the city. The enemy is willing to die and is literally waiting until they see the whites of the eyes of the Marines before they open up. Just two days ago, as a firefight raged in close quarters, one of the interpreters yelled for the enemy in the house to surrender. The enemy yelled back that it was better to die and go to heaven than to surrender to infidels. This exchange is a graphic window into the world that the Marines and Soldiers have been fighting in these last 10 days.

I could go on and on about how the city was taken but one of the most amazing aspects to the fighting was that we saw virtually no civilians during the battle. Only after the fighting had passed did a few come out of their homes. They were provided food and water and most were evacuated out of the city. At least 90-95% of the people were gone from the city when we attacked.

I will end with a couple of stories of individual heroism that you may not have heard yet. I was told about both of these incidents shortly after they occurred. No doubt some of the facts will change slightly but I am confident that the meat is correct. The first is a Marine from 3/5. His name is Corporal Yeager (Chuck Yeager's grandson). As the Marines cleared an apartment building, they got to the top floor and the point man kicked in the door. As he did so, an enemy grenade and a burst of gunfire came out. The explosion and enemy fire took off the point man's leg. He was then immediately shot in the arm as he lay in the doorway. Corporal Yeager tossed a grenade in the room and ran into the doorway and into the enemy fire in order to pull his buddy back to cover. As he was dragging the wounded Marine to cover, his own grenade came back through the doorway. Without pausing, he reached down and threw the grenade back through the door while he heaved his buddy to safety. The grenade went off inside the room and Cpl Yeager threw another in. He immediately entered the room following the second explosion. He gunned down three enemy all within three feet of where he stood and then let fly a third grenade as he backed out of the room to complete the evacuation of the wounded Marine. You have to understand that a grenade goes off within 5 seconds of having the pin pulled. Marines usually let them "cook off" for a second or two before tossing them in. Therefore, this entire episode took place in less than 30 seconds.

The second example comes from 3/1. Cpl Mitchell is a squad leader. He was wounded as his squad was clearing a house when some enemy threw pineapple grenades down on top of them. As he was getting triaged, the doctor told him that he had been shot through the arm. Cpl Mitchell told the doctor that he had actually been shot "a couple of days ago" and had given himself self aide on the wound. When the doctor got on him about not coming off the line, he firmly told the doctor that he was a squad leader and did not have time to get treated as his men were still fighting.

There are a number of Marines who have been wounded multiple times but refuse to leave their fellow Marines. It is incredibly humbling to walk among such men. They fought as hard as any Marines in history and deserve to be remembered as such. The enemy they fought burrowed into houses and fired through mouse holes cut in walls, lured them into houses rigged with explosives and detonated the houses on pursuing Marines, and actually hid behind surrender flags only to engage the Marines with small arms fire once they perceived that the Marines had let their guard down. I know of several instances where near dead enemy rolled grenades out on Marines who were preparing to render them aid. It was a fight to the finish in every sense and the Marines delivered. I have called the enemy cowards many times in the past because they have never really held their ground and fought but these guys in the city did. We can call them many things but they were not cowards. My whole life I have read about the greatest generation and sat in wonder at their accomplishments. For the first time, as I watch these Marines and >Soldiers, I am eager for the future as this is just the beginning for them. Perhaps the most amazing characteristic of all is that the morale of the men is sky high. They hurt for the wounded and the dead but they are eager to continue to attack. Further, not one of them would be comfortable with being called a hero even though they clearly are.

By now the Marines and Soldiers have killed well over a thousand enemy. These were not peasants or rabble. They were reasonably well trained and entirely fanatical. Most of the enemy we have seen have chest rigs full of ammunition and are well armed are willing to fight to the death. The Marines and Soldiers are eager to close with them and the fighting at the end is inevitably close.

I will write you more the next time I come in about what we have found inside the city. All I can say is that even with everything that I knew and expected from the last nine months, the brutality and fanaticism of the enemy surprised me. The beheadings were even more common place than we thought but so were torture and summary executions. Even though it is an exaggeration, it seems as though every block in the northern part of the city has a torture chamber or execution site. There are hundreds of tons of munitions and tens of thousands of weapons that our Regiment alone has recovered. The Marines and Soldiers of the Regiment have also found over 400 IEDs already wired and ready to detonate. No doubt these numbers will grow in the days ahead. In closing, I want to share with you a vignette about when the Marines secured the Old Bridge (the one where the Americans were mutilated and hung on March 31) this week. After the Marines had done all the work and secured the bridge, we walked across to meet up with 3rd LAR on the other side. On the Fallujah side of the bridge where the Americans were hung there is some Arabic writing on the bridge. An interpreter translated it for me as we walked through. It read: "Long Live the Mujahadeen. Fallujah is the Graveyard for Americans and the end of the Marine Corps."

As I came back across the bridge there was a squad sitting in their Amtrac smoking and watching the show. The Marines had written their own message below the enemy's. It is not something that Mom would appreciate but it fit the moment to a T. Not far from the vehicle were two dead enemy laying where they died. The Marines were sick of watching the "Dog and Pony show" and wanted to get back to work.

Dave

**end**

Letters like these speak volumes about what our fighting men and women think about their role in the War on Terror. Not so bleak as the media would have us believe. I especially liked the part where the soldier points out that they are NOT routinely 'executing' helpless people as is commonly believed by those easily led.

-Dark/Blue

Ezekiel 25:17

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 4:57 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What the first post and the coda on this post seem to mistakenly believe in is some "liberal" media that is crucifying the soldier. Where is it? I don't see American media in full witch-hunt mode. Arab media of course is entitled to its own opinion.

But what is even stranger is the notion that 'liberals' are itching to hang that soldier out to dry. (For 'liberal' read: sheep, crucifiers, cowards, gun-haters out for military blood, traitors, ingrates, and comfy latte-drinking whiners who aren't 'doing anything'.)

For anyone who persists in that mistaken notion, I'd like to point out the most recent example of Abu Ghraib.

As I recall, it was those horrid liberals who wanted the gummint and military brass to take responsibility for their policies and instructions. It was the Prez-dent and the Pentagon who were only too happy to disavow their soldiers, calling them rogues and letting them take the fall. The media merely reported what the gummint told them (in its effort to mold public perception).

And as for the REAL crucifixtion, the one that results in jail time, the military is vigorously pursuing the courts martial, which continue unabated to this day.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:38 PM

DARKARCHON

'For anyone who persists in that mistaken notion, I'd like to point out the most recent example of Abu Ghraib.'

Because the 'Prezdent' is in the habit of calling up troops in the field and telling them to take photos of nude prisoners all the while hoping the media don't get a hold of it. Got a line nobody else does? I'm just curious...

BTW...what those soldiers did was wrong, but if that's the worst we do, we're still miles ahead of video taping cutting peoples heads off and sending it out for the world to watch. The BIG difference being that for us it was the Exception to the rule and not the RULE as it is with the terrorists.

-Dark/Blue

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:49 AM

HKCAVALIER

Oh, lordy, not this again... Taking photographs of the prisoners was not just a gorram whim, it's standard precedure for dealing with particularly shame-based cultures. Tell the prisoner that his family is going to see the pictures of his humiliation and his homosexual acts, the story goes, and he will do anything you say. The photos are reutinely used for blackmailing the prisoners into compliance. They've been taking pictures like this for decades, only in the past the picture taking has been conducted entirely by the CIA and not the regular army. You gotta know the CIA has been doing all of this and worse without the media getting wise. Rummy was tired of the CIA being the only game in town and put the torture in the hands of relatively untrained and undisciplined folks who "couldn't keep it together."

And your second point draws a false comparison between our military hierarchy and a bunch of "lawless" terrorists. We have a chain of command which reaches all the way to Rummy and Dubya. "The enemy" answers to no one. Our armies represent our Nation and should reflect our way of life. "They" arogate authority and claim to act in the interest of the very people they terrorize into submission. We are not only fighting head-chopping terrorists, we are also fighting nationalists trying to protect their heritage. Comparing our armed forces to terrorists is a lot like comparing police officers to coke dealers. "So we killed one junkie, they participate in drive-by shootings!" Saying that all Moslems "support the terrorists" is like saying that all Italian Americans are part of the Mafia.

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkArchon:
'For anyone who persists in that mistaken notion, I'd like to point out the most recent example of Abu Ghraib.'

Because the 'Prezdent' is in the habit of calling up troops in the field and telling them to take photos of nude prisoners all the while hoping the media don't get a hold of it. Got a line nobody else does? I'm just curious...

BTW...what those soldiers did was wrong, but if that's the worst we do, we're still miles ahead of video taping cutting peoples heads off and sending it out for the world to watch. The BIG difference being that for us it was the Exception to the rule and not the RULE as it is with the terrorists.

-Dark/Blue

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:46 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Got a line nobody else does?

Well, we could believe the Prez-dent and Pentagon brass. These soldier-perverts got together and found they could all get down with the same kind of party. They pooled their resources, went to the px and bought dog collars, leashes, alligator clips, chains, cameras, film and other readily available supplies. Ever eager to add to the party, Lindie England contributed domestic skills and went to the local market for a supply of black cloth, spending many nights (when she wasn't on duty) sewing hoods. Fully stocked and supplied with everything needed for sophisticated sexual fun, they partied hearty.

Or we could believe the private who sent pix and mail to his dad, worried about the legal consequences of what they were instructed to do. We could believe the words of the privates who said they were instructed by intelligence to do what they did. (Unfortunately, being instructed or even being directly ordered to do something illegal is no excuse in the Geneva Convention.) Perhaps we believe Maj Gen Karpinski who said this was by direction of intelligence. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1958478
Or we could believe the Red Cross, who, months before, after having seen many examples of mistreatment and torture, concluded it was systematic. (It's on the Int'l Red Cross web site.)

I don't know. What to conclude. it's all so confusing.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:15 PM

I read that and all I could think is your friend really should get a clue..I mean he's in the miltary..he signed up to be fodder for the slaughter...he sounds really brainwashed..espeically if he seriously thinks he's there to protect the Iraqi people...and if he just can't get it around his thick skull why they don't want Americans . poor guy really thinks there is a bigger picture

I almost feel sorry for your friend because he seems to be living in la la land..I suppose in his situation you really need something to believe in to get you threw it

Your friend seems to want to believe that he has some grand purpose for being in Iraq...

for his sake..may his delusions be a comfort to him..because if he ever starts getting clued into the reality of the situationI fear from his letter..he may not be able to take it!!!

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:20 PM

Quote:
And your second point draws a false comparison between our military hierarchy and a bunch of "lawless" terrorists. We have a chain of command which reaches all the way to Rummy and Dubya. "The enemy" answers to no one. Our armies represent our Nation and should reflect our way of life.

and your point would be????

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:35 PM

Quote:
I've lived in 3 Red states counting PA. I've found the same thing. Democrats and Republicans sharing the same basic core moral values. Values they hold more dear then their class interests or elitist philisophical notions. Most are God, Family, and Football, all of which they manage to fit in on Sunday.

and this is also very sad..and its the reason why our country can now be considered the titanic..where already sailing in icy waters its only a matter of time before we hit that iceberg and sink..

you know out of the 3 that you mentioned family is really the only one that has any importance..and that wasn't even 1st on the list

geez, I would love to think that as a society we aren't that stupid....but your probably right !!

whoever said it was a sad state of affairs has it correct because that is pretty sad!!

Quote:

But get out of the way cause the rest of us are comin through. We're building this new world one day at a time..

what new world are you talking about..can you elaborate on this..I'm curious

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:09 PM

TETHYS

As a veteran Non-Commissioned Officer in the Army that had a VERY hazardous occupation (scout-sniper), my response is both as a man and a vet.

The soldier that is coming under fire from people here is not neccesarily a hero, nor a pawn of our government. He is a man doing his job, and having seen combat myself, you do what you have to do to survive and to help your fellow soldiers survive in a WAR. He doesn't have the luxury of sitting around debating the war in Iraq, and wether or not it's right or wrong. He is surviving so he can come home to his family.
To judge him without having the same experiences is base, IGNORANT, and the height of STUPIDITY. People that judge without ANY knowledge of the situation for our soldiers overseas should be sent on the next C-130 Baghdad-Bound.
Soldiers do NOT have a say-so in where they go, and wether or not to participate in a war situation. That's the life of a soldier. To do the hard things, right or wrong, so people can sit here, snivel and criticize them. He isn't brainwashed by the military, he is saying how he feels, which in this case is no more or lwess than the TRUTH. In his position, I would have wasted the Iraqi as well. And so would you, and any other person in the world, if we were all in that position.
To say otherwise is a liar, and in that case, this board does not need liars. We are all intelligent people that can make up our own minds, not repeat what we hear elsewhere. Grow up, and see the situation through his eyes.
And before you formulate a response, know this "O ye of little brains." I am against the War in Iraq. There was no proof, yada yada. I feel that we had no business in Iraq. However, that is my opinion. Here is my FACT: I support the soldiers overseas, every last one of them. They are thousands of miles away, participating in an action that they don't necessarily believe in.
Join the military, spend a few years in a combat related field, and then you'll have earned the right to criticize a soldier. If you're not willing to do that, STFU!

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:25 PM

In response to Tetheys

did you read his letter,

I defintely wouldn't call him a hero..as for a pawn..I'm not sure about that.. we have a volunteer army right now so if he is I would have to say a willing pawn...but as you well know having been in the miltary....they do brainwash you..that is what boot camp is all about..and if you say it anit so ..your lying...

you follow orders in the miltary without question, thats what they train you to do...my stepfather was a drill Sergent..so I think I know a little something about it!!

Quote:
To judge him without having the same experiences is base, IGNORANT, and the height of STUPIDITY.

and from this guys letter..its obvious he's not dealing in all the facts..I would say we are juding his letter more then we are judging him..because all we have to go on is his letter we don't know him.

he doesn't really seem to understand the country or the people whoes country he's in ..his information seems to be scewed ...it sounds from the letter that he's under the impression he's in Iraq fighting for some just cause...under his circumstances I can easily understand why someone would need to feed off such delusions..when your told to kill someone you want to believe that there is some noble reason for it...Is the guy just trying to survive I'm sure he is...but its sad that this guy has to lie to himself and is being lied to ,to carryout this war

I think most of us know that soilers take orders, and that they are just doing there job, and that most of them don't have much of a choice..your not suppose to think or have a choice in the miltary..you are there to take orders and carry out your duties!!

yeah we get it..

but that doesn't change the situation..nor does it make this guy's letter any less sad!!

As for joining the miltary..NO thank you....not for all the tea in china...

...

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:32 PM

TETHYS

Ahem......BTW, before ya open yer yapper, be sure what yer yapping about. I am the type of person that tells the truth, even if it damns me. Which it has on occasion......

You are conditioned in Basic Training...you can call it Brainwashing if you like. Since you do, might wanna have another talk with pops. As to his tone, I don't address it at all. I address the posts made by eveyone else criticizing the soldiers overseas, so read the post again, then read it very carefully where it says...ahem:

Quote:

Join the military, spend a few years in a combat related field, and then you'll have earned the right to criticize a soldier. If you're not willing to do that, STFU!

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

And I am addressing EVERYONE that criticizes the people overseas doing what they are doing. For whatever reason they're doing it for, not necessarily 100% about the individual's letter, but then again, if the shoe fits....

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

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Friday, November 26, 2004 6:53 AM

Flame-bait! Be warned!

Quote:

Quote:

But get out of the way cause the rest of us are comin through. We're building this new world one day at a time..

what new world are you talking about..can you elaborate on this..I'm curious

Well, piratejenny,

That shiny, brave new world? It's the one where America calls all the shots because we're such an accurate representation of the values of the entire world, and because we're God's pet nation.

That shiny new world is the one where homos are allowed to serve and die in the army, so long as they don't talk about the way they're homos, but they can't legally get married because their children don't deserve that stability.

That brave place, built up by proud, God-fearing Christians (i.e., Americans), one brick at a time, will allow other people to express their religious beliefs unless the Christians find those beliefs offensive.
Political beliefs differing from the norm may be expressed at the risk of the person expressing them; those persons expressing different political beliefs may well be labeled traitors and treated with the incredible tolerance that traitors like them warrant: they won't be hauled out and shot, because that's the American way!

Oh shiny, brave new world that has such bigots running it!

There is no such thing as a weed.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 2:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I just have time for a quick reply:
"I address the posts made by eveyone else criticizing the soldiers overseas."

I don't find anyone criticizing 'them' generically or the shooter specifically anywhere here.

I see a letter from one soldier who THINKS the shooter will be criticized. I see him unloading a large amount of hostility and anger at people he THINKS will be doing the criticizing. I see in THAT letter a large amount of obvious internal contradiction which I suspect comes from basic confusion. His letter is what I was, and still am, addressing.

As to a soldier's 'place' in the military: the relationship goes far beyond employer/employee and military service goes far beyond a 'job'. Military control over its members is like nothing in civilian life. If it were not so, every service-member would be just another civilian employee. And that is not the case.

So, to get back to my point: I don't see liberals in full witch-hunt mode. Do you? If not them, from which direction will the punishment come? Abu Ghraib leads the way. Liberals were not the ones calling it isolated actions of rogue soldiers. That came from the Prez-dent and the Pentagon. And by the postings on THIS board, from conservatives and faux libertarians who were only too happy to make the soldiers the fall guys, so as to protect the Administration.

In the end, was it the conservatives who supported the troops? Or were they right in line with the Prez-dent and Pentagon, over there by the handy tree with the noose?

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Friday, November 26, 2004 2:54 PM