speaking of the news by 1kiki

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
Seeking asylum is not a crime.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But crossing the border illegally is. People need to seek asylum BEFORE they cross the border - not after.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
My God, you're clueless!

Why is it clueless to insist people seek asylum first - BEFORE crossing the border?

Oh, that's right - they're not actually seeking asylum. They're just hoping to cross the border and disappear. And Mexico is more than willing to move them along, since it doesn't want them. It has no qualms about being so unwelcoming they 'self-deport' to the US. Canada doesn't want them either. It's biggest concern is that it's not dealing with illegal border-crossers fast enough, within its 60-day window.

Is the US supposed to be the only country that doesn't regulate its immigration?

As for the new policy - enforcing existing laws - it remains to be seen whether or not it has an effect. It's not a case of "US or nothing". There's always Mexico. If people settle in Mexico, which is marginally better than the country they came from, enforcement will have done the job. The US borders will be secure. And people will have improved their lives.

SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, June 18, 2018 6:26 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
So they incarcerate everyone?
Mindless. We have a fascist apologist here.^

Troll, much?

Is it fascist to require people seek asylum? Yes or No

Is it fascist to detain people for breaking the law? Yes or No

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Monday, June 18, 2018 7:30 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'm curious if anyone is interested in discussing solutions.

Signy has a point. Our policies create a lot of poverty and instability outside of our borders.

When it comes to Mexico specifically, the US has a long and shameful history of treating its poor population like disposable parts. While the west was being settled, Mexicans were welcome as cowboys. But when the US wanted the territory, the Mexicans were the enemy. During the railroad-building boom times, Mexicans were worked like mules. But when the Great Depression hit, Mexicans were targeted and driven by violence back across the border. During WWII, when there was a shortage of young male labor, Mexicans were 'allowed' to do the most backbreaking work in the US. When times got better, Mexicans were easily-abused cheap labor - as farmworkers, laborers, and especially working in the meat and chicken processing plants in the midwest (Tyson, eg). Then NAFTA destroyed the indigenous Mexican family farmer, throwing them off the land and into the cheap-labor market. (Under Nafta, Mexico Suffered, and the United States Felt Its Pain https://www.nytimes.com/...nafta/under-nafta-mexico-suffered-and-the-u
nited-states-f... Nov 24, 2013 - As heavily subsidized U.S. corn and other staples poured into Mexico, producer prices dropped and small farmers found themselves unable to ...) Now that hard times have hit the American worker (as the last population available to exploit ... but that's another story), Mexicans are now unwelcome.

For well over two centuries, the US has turned a blind eye to Mexican labor coming across the border when it was profitable for business and tolerated by the US community. But when circumstances changed, the US had no compunction about driving Mexicans back to whatever fate had in store.

So now we have this problem ... illegal border crossers are unpopular (again). And we have laws in place to deal with them (still). But this current shift in the wind doesn't negate the centuries old-dynamic embedded in the personal economies of people across the border. The US is both the thief and the place to find redress.

I think we would do ourselves the biggest favor if we stopped being self-serving hypocrites, at least when it comes to immigration. Are Mexicans (and others who come through Mexico) different from immigrants across the rest of the globe, or the same? Do we throw our doors open to Mexicans and no one else? Do we allow everyone in? Or do we, once and for all, treat Mexicans like we treat others - with restricted immigration, enforcement, and the rule of law?

We've been trying to have it both ways for too long. We need to settle on one policy - one of the above, or something else - and stick with it. That will help stabilize immigration out of the current chaos. It might also help to regularize the economic relationship between Mexico and the US.

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Monday, June 18, 2018 8:00 PM

You knew it was comming. Again comrades kiki and sig blame America for the worlds problems.

T

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Monday, June 18, 2018 8:31 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Do you have anything to add on-topic?

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Monday, June 18, 2018 9:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by JJ:
You knew it was comming. [sic] Again comrades kiki and sig blame America for the worlds problems.

Well, son, if we constantly brag about our "unipolar" dominance, and how our military is the biggest and best in the world, and how we are the "indispensable" nation and how it's up to us to make the world safe for democracy ... or whatever the fuck it is we're told about WHY we should "intervene" in yet another nation .... then we should bear responsibility, and be accountable for the results.

After all, with great power comes great responsibility. Right?

******

It occurs to me - not that I've given this a whole lot of thought - that people who are coming over the border WITH their children are operating on the assumption that these children would act as their "get out of jail free" card, because that's how it worked under Obama. In other words, they're exploiting their children to game the system. Not that I blame them, but OTOH I don't have to condone their actions either.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, June 18, 2018 11:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Still waiting for a coherent response to this ...

Quote:
Yes, it's that simple. If you are a parent, and you rob a bank, or sell a lot of drugs, or hit-and-run, won't YOU be "separated from your children" when you go to jail? Well, entering the country illegally is also a crime, and it has a predicable consequence. Ergo, don't enter the country illegally. - SIGNY

Wow - SIGNUMP tries to equate robbing a bank or selling drugs with parents trying to find a better life for their children. Pretty brain dead on that one, chief. I would be willing to bet that if she found herself in their situation, she would be trying the same thing. At least, if she has their courage and loves her children like they do. - GSTRING

When I hear about people who have left because gangs were threatening their business or their home, or because someone was being threatened by their spouse, I have to wonder .... if they were so desperate as to make the multi-hundred or even multi-thousand mile journey to the USA .... did they ever try just moving to a different part of the city? Or to a different city or different province altogether? Or just across the border to another nation, like (say) Costa Rica? I mean, heck, if I were the target of a gang in LA, and it was THAT bad, I'd probably try to move to someplace else within the USA first, where I know the language. I wouldn't immediately think ...CRAP! I have to move to Quebec!

And if not, why not?

Here's my guess ... because the poverty is just as bad "there" as in the neighborhood. It's probably not "just" violence that people are escaping. I'll get back to that in a bit.

Quote:
There is another aspect to this, and that is people claiming POLITICAL ASYLUM because of poverty and gang violence in their city, or domestic violence in their home. What is "political" about any of that? "Political" asylum is meant for categories of people who are discriminated against because of a policy of discrimination by their home nation, not because of general incompetence or corruption by their government, or generalized poverty. Receiving "political" asylum on the basis of generalized poverty and violence means that ANY poor person in the entire world can claim asylum, and that is simply not the intent of the political asylum status.- SIGNY

So very cold. You're trying to *intellectualize* desperation. Try just once to put yourself in their situation.- GSTRING

GSTRING, it would be useful if you put YOUR brain into gear once in a while!

WHY are people desperate? What is the cause of their poverty? If you can fix that, then you wouldn't have to "help" so many poor.

I remind you once again of the story of washerwomen who go to the river to wash clothes, and they see babies ... helpless babies, floating down the river, dead and drowning. One woman falls into hysterical crying. Several other women form a chain, pulling babies out as fast as they can, even tho they know they';ll never be able to help them all. The last woman turns around and starts running upriver.

Stop!!! implore the women of the human chain We need you to help pull babies out of the river!!

I can't she yells over her shoulder I'm going upstream to find the bastards who are throwing them in!

That is the source of my quote I don't believe in sharing problems, I believe in solving them Also Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor. Poverty - especially nationwide poverty- doesn't just "happen", and it's not the result of personal misfortune, it is the end result of a process.

Find the source of the problem, and solve it. But that is why I find you, THUGR, KRAPO, and SECOND to be such hypocrites ... or at least incredible mental midgets. Each in your own way support and promote the very problems that you pretend to care about. Let's talk about the causes of poverty, and how we can stop it, instead of "helping" its victims.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, June 18, 2018 11:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic ...

"The news".

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:The problem isn't limited to CNN. CNN just happened to be at the alphabetical top of my list. I'm going to follow it for a bit, to illustrate a consistent pattern. And assuming my schedule frees up soon, I intend to illustrate the problem with other 'sources' as well.

I hope you include Foxnews.com - a quick look right now at their "headlines"

- Booming economy, fraud crackdown brings enrollment down to 8-year low
Overall enrollment in the country's food stamp program has dropped to its lowest level in more than eight years as the economy continues to improve and the Trump administration attempts to tackle fraud in the program.

- WATCH: President, VP attend National Space Council meeting

- The foul trick famous billionaire used to try to drive wife from house

- Controversial college teacher made students praise Allah to enter office

- Troubled 90s soap star threatened to kill herself: report

- Restaurant customer sickened when he sees disgusting note on check

- NASA’s Curiosity rover takes selfie during dust storm

- WATCH: Trump supporter disrupts De Niro Broadway performance

- SHOCKING VIDEO: Mice found in Wendy’s hamburger buns

- FOX & FRIENDS Tourists met with needles, feces on streets of San Francisco

- Samuel L. Jackson isn’t sorry for ‘homophobic' Trump tweet

See any raw meat for the typical Trump supporter?

Thanks for the review. I guess FNC is not as bad as I feared. The closest to an Entertainment diversion is 8th on the list.

And no opinions listed in the top 11 that you posted.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
Seeking asylum is not a crime.
But crossing the border illegally is. People need to seek asylum BEFORE they cross the border - not after.

My God, you're clueless!

Pot, meet kettle.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm curious if anyone is interested in discussing solutions.

Signy has a point. Our policies create a lot of poverty and instability outside of our borders.

When it comes to Mexico specifically, the US has a long and shameful history of treating its poor population like disposable parts. While the west was being settled, Mexicans were welcome as cowboys. But when the US wanted the territory, the Mexicans were the enemy. During the railroad-building boom times, Mexicans were worked like mules. But when the Great Depression hit, Mexicans were targeted and driven by violence back across the border. During WWII, when there was a shortage of young male labor, Mexicans were 'allowed' to do the most backbreaking work in the US. When times got better, Mexicans were easily-abused cheap labor - as farmworkers, laborers, and especially working in the meat and chicken processing plants in the midwest (Tyson, eg). Then NAFTA destroyed the indigenous Mexican family farmer, throwing them off the land and into the cheap-labor market. (Under Nafta, Mexico Suffered, and the United States Felt Its Pain https://www.nytimes.com/...nafta/under-nafta-mexico-suffered-and-the-u
nited-states-f... Nov 24, 2013 - As heavily subsidized U.S. corn and other staples poured into Mexico, producer prices dropped and small farmers found themselves unable to ...) Now that hard times have hit the American worker (as the last population available to exploit ... but that's another story), Mexicans are now unwelcome.

For well over two centuries, the US has turned a blind eye to Mexican labor coming across the border when it was profitable for business and tolerated by the US community. But when circumstances changed, the US had no compunction about driving Mexicans back to whatever fate had in store.

So now we have this problem ... illegal border crossers are unpopular (again). And we have laws in place to deal with them (still). But this current shift in the wind doesn't negate the centuries old-dynamic embedded in the personal economies of people across the border. The US is both the thief and the place to find redress.

I think we would do ourselves the biggest favor if we stopped being self-serving hypocrites, at least when it comes to immigration. Are Mexicans (and others who come through Mexico) different from immigrants across the rest of the globe, or the same? Do we throw our doors open to Mexicans and no one else? Do we allow everyone in? Or do we, once and for all, treat Mexicans like we treat others - with restricted immigration, enforcement, and the rule of law?

We've been trying to have it both ways for too long. We need to settle on one policy - one of the above, or something else - and stick with it. That will help stabilize immigration out of the current chaos. It might also help to regularize the economic relationship between Mexico and the US.

SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

I'm not sure if you are fully accurate. The biggest change leading to the current epidemic was Teddly Kennedy's intentional subjugation of immigration law in order to drive an increase of Illegal Aliens.
Your post didn't seem to include that fact.

Personally, I think the valid Immigrant acceptance rate should be ramped up. This means law abiding applicants, and mostly from places without a land border with USA - unless law abiding Canadians want to escape Nature's Air Conditioning.
People with real, actual hard education should have preference, not feminist studies or advanced pot smoking degrees, or Affirmative Action Fake diplomas.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 8:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JJ:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:

Seeking asylum is not a crime.
But crossing the border illegally is. People need to seek asylum BEFORE they cross the border - not after.

It's about to come out that the Trump administration planned on separating parents from their children back in 2017. To use zero tolerance to do it. They wanted to use this as a tool to cut back on asylum seekers. And, those reporting this have the documentation to prove it.

Once again you guys have egg on your faces.

T

How so?

I'm 100% in agreement with this practice. Zero Tolerance.

If you don't want to be separated from your kids, don't' sneak over the border illegally.

What's so fucking hard to understand about this concept?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 9:32 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Still waiting for a coherent response to this ...

Equating bank robbery and drug dealing with seeking asylum - even if it's fake asylum - is such an asinine equation. If you say stupid sh*t you're going to have to wait for a response.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Here's my guess ...

Unfortunately that's what a lot of us have to do, GUESS. I AGREE that there are arguments for both sides:

1. Wrong to bring kids this far without expecting negative consequences. Not to mention the Fraudulent applicants that try to game the system. I would like to see more reporting from neutrals about the source of this immigration.
2. No matter how you slice it, not matter your angle, no matter how well pain compliance may work, it's flat out wrong. OK for Russia maybe, or some other backward ass country, not this one.
And this is the problem: You have an administration that has proven they don't give a sh*t about non-white people. They're from "Shit holes" etc. If you want to better manage immigration in a humane way, this is the wrong way to do it. You can't trust this administration for anything other than They Will Lie. That seems like a lazy way out. I want a better solution.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
WHY are people desperate? What is the cause of their poverty? If you can fix that, then you wouldn't have to "help" so many poor.

"IF" - great lot of good that helps now.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I remind you once again of the story of washerwomen who go to the river to wash clothes, and they see babies ... helpless babies, floating down the river, dead and drowning. One woman falls into hysterical crying. Several other women form a chain, pulling babies out as fast as they can, even tho they know they';ll never be able to help them all. The last woman turns around and starts running upriver.

Stop!!! implore the women of the human chain We need you to help pull babies out of the river!!

I can't she yells over her shoulder I'm going upstream to find the bastards who are throwing them in!

That is the source of my quote I don't believe in sharing problems, I believe in solving them Also Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor. Poverty - especially nationwide poverty- doesn't just "happen", and it's not the result of personal misfortune, it is the end result of a process.

We could tell that story to these kids when they get tucked in at night!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Find the source of the problem, and solve it. But that is why I find you, THUGR, KRAPO, and SECOND to be such hypocrites ... or at least incredible mental midgets. Each in your own way support and promote the very problems that you pretend to care about. Let's talk about the causes of poverty, and how we can stop it, instead of "helping" its victims.

The source of this problem is The White House. There, solved.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Still waiting for a coherent response to this ... - SIGNY

Equating bank robbery and drug dealing with seeking asylum - even if it's fake asylum - is such an asinine equation. If you say stupid sh*t you're going to have to wait for a response. - GSTRING

Both are willfully breaking the law.

Quote:
Here's my guess ... - SIGNY

Unfortunately that's what a lot of us have to do, GUESS. I AGREE that there are arguments for both sides:

1. Wrong to bring kids this far without expecting negative consequences. Not to mention the Fraudulent applicants that try to game the system. I would like to see more reporting from neutrals about the source of this immigration.
2. No matter how you slice it, not matter your angle, no matter how well pain compliance may work, it's flat out wrong. OK for Russia maybe, or some other backward ass country, not this one. - GSTRING

GSTRING, punishment works to reduce deliberate misbehaviours. So punishment works for end deliberations of costs versus benefits ... white collar crimes for example, illegal immigration, or starting smoking. (What punishment DOESN'T reduce are violent crimes, because those are usually the result of internal drives over which the criminal has no control). This policy, IMHO, is a good example of "deterrence".

Quote:
And this is the problem: You have an administration that has proven they don't give a sh*t about non-white people. They're from "Shit holes" etc. If you want to better manage immigration in a humane way, this is the wrong way to do it. You can't trust this administration for anything other than They Will Lie. That seems like a lazy way out. I want a better solution.- GSTRING

Son, I asked you to consider the causes of POVERTY, and not take the "lazy way out" of blaming everything in Trump. Clearly, your brain is not yet functioning.

Quote:
WHY are people desperate? What is the cause of their poverty? If you can fix that, then you wouldn't have to "help" so many poor. - SIGNY

"IF" - great lot of good that helps now.- GSTRING

Well, if it is an ONGOING process and WE are at least partly to blame, wouldn't it help to STOP whatever it is that we're doing ... First, do no harm ... so that we don't continue to make the problem worse?

Quote:
I remind you once again of the story of washerwomen who go to the river to wash clothes, and they see babies ... helpless babies, floating down the river, dead and drowning. One woman falls into hysterical crying. Several other women form a chain, pulling babies out as fast as they can, even tho they know they';ll never be able to help them all. The last woman turns around and starts running upriver.

Stop!!! implore the women of the human chain We need you to help pull babies out of the river!!

I can't she yells over her shoulder I'm going upstream to find the bastards who are throwing them in!

That is the source of my quote I don't believe in sharing problems, I believe in solving them Also Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor. Poverty - especially nationwide poverty- doesn't just "happen", and it's not the result of personal misfortune, it is the end result of a process. - SIGNY

We could tell that story to these kids when they get tucked in at night!- GSTRING

No, but I'm telling it to YOU because YOU- presumably are an adult. Right?? You ARE an adult??

Quote:
Find the source of the problem, and solve it. But that is why I find you, THUGR, KRAPO, and SECOND to be such hypocrites ... or at least incredible mental midgets. Each in your own way support and promote the very problems that you pretend to care about. Let's talk about the causes of poverty, and how we can stop it, instead of "helping" its victims. - SIGNY

The source of this problem is The White House. There, solved.- GSTRING

Bullshit. That is a stupid and lazy conclusion. Desperation and poverty, the the resulting illegal immigration started long before Trump. Clearly, you aren't trying to "solve the problem" which predates Trump by quite a bit, you're simply looking to blame Trump.

I'm going to give you one more chance to figure this out for yourself.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:26 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GSTRING, punishment works to reduce deliberate misbehaviours. So punishment works for end deliberations of costs versus benefits ... white collar crimes for example, illegal immigration, or starting smoking. (What punishment DOESN'T reduce are violent crimes, because those are usually the result of internal drives over which the criminal has no control). This policy, IMHO, is a good example of "deterrence".

Cold, black heart just too lazy to think of a better way.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Son, I asked you to consider the causes of POVERTY, and not take the "lazy way out" of blaming everything in Trump. Clearly, your brain is not yet functioning.

Clearly you are not talking about the current problem and its easy fix. You want to prattle on about some future make believe situation because you really just don't give a shit about these people.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
YOU - presumably are an adult. Right?? You ARE an adult??

YOU - presumably are a human. Right?? You ARE a human??

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's talk about the causes of poverty, and how we can stop it, instead of "helping" its victims. - SIGNY

Yeah, god forbid we'd help the victims of poverty - geezus christ! I think you slipped there.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Bullshit. That is a stupid and lazy conclusion. Illegal immigration started long before Trump.

You really do say the dumbest things with such ease.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm going to give you one more chance to figure this out for yourself.

And I'll give you one more chance to read my comment again granny. I said THIS problem. Not interested in your make believe 100 year what-if scenarios.

For anyone else:

from Morena B:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/how-you-can-fight-family-s
eparation-at-the-border.html

This list is being updated with new information. Last updated Tuesday, June 18, 2018, 8:19 p.m.

If you’re horrified by news of families being separated at the borders, here’s a bit of news you can use.

First, the policy: It helps to be incredibly clear on what the law is, and what has and has not changed. When Donald Trump and Sarah Huckabee Sanders say that the policy of separating children from their parents upon entry is a law passed by Democrats that Democrats will not fix, they are lying.

There are two different policies in play, and both are new.

First is the new policy that any migrant family entering the U.S. without a border inspection will be prosecuted for this minor misdemeanor. The parents get incarcerated and that leaves children to be warehoused. The parents then typically plead guilty to the misdemeanor and are given a sentence of the few days they served waiting for trial. But then when the parents try to reunite with their children, they are given the runaround—and possibly even deported, alone. The children are left in HHS custody, often without family.

Second is a new and apparently unwritten policy that even when the family presents themselves at a border-entry location, seeking asylum—that is, even when the family is complying in all respects with immigration law—the government is snatching the children away from their parents. Here, the government’s excuse seems to be that they want to keep the parents in jail-like immigration detention for a long time, while their asylum cases are adjudicated. The long-standing civil rights case known as Flores dictates that they aren’t allowed to keep kids in that kind of detention, so the Trump administration says they have to break up the families. They do not have to break up families—it is the government’s new choice to jail people with credible asylum claims who haven’t violated any laws that is leading to the heartbreaking separations you’ve been reading about.

So that is what is happening. Whether or not that is what the Bible demands is the subject of a different column. Good explainers on what is and is not legal detention of immigrants and asylum-seekers can also be found here and here and here."

You'll have to go to the article for some of the links. It's also followed up by a lot of resources.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
GSTRING, punishment works to reduce deliberate misbehaviours. So punishment works for end deliberations of costs versus benefits ... white collar crimes for example, illegal immigration, or starting smoking. (What punishment DOESN'T reduce are violent crimes, because those are usually the result of internal drives over which the criminal has no control). This policy, IMHO, is a good example of "deterrence".

Cold, black heart just too lazy to think of a better way.- CGSTRING

I HAVE thought of a better way. I posted it more than once. You were just too stupid to understand it.

Quote:
Son, I asked you to consider the causes of POVERTY, and not take the "lazy way out" of blaming everything in Trump. Clearly, your brain is not yet functioning. -SIGNY

Clearly you are not talking about the current problem and its easy fix. You want to prattle on about some future make believe situation because you really just don't give a shit about these people.- GSTRING

What IS the "easy fix", son? Just let people in and let them go free on own recognizance, to show up at a hearing for which they will never appear? THAT'S not a solution. The only other solution is to build family centers where children can be near their parents even as their parents are detained.

Quote:
YOU - presumably are an adult. Right?? You ARE an adult?? - SIGNY

YOU - presumably are a human. Right?? You ARE a human?? -GSTRING

Yes, I am a human, and what is it about humans that make us so special?? It's not "feelings" and it's not "empathy" because animals have both; it's our ability to THINK. An ability that YOU haven't accessed in a long time, if ever!

Quote:
Let's talk about the causes of poverty, and how we can stop it, instead of "helping" its victims. - SIGNY

Yeah, god forbid we'd help the victims of poverty - geezus christ! I think you slipped there. - GSTRING

If you're so fucking interested in "helping the poor" why don't you start with our own poor here in the USA?? Jimminy Christmas, we treat illegal aliens better than we treat our own homeless and disabled!

Quote:
Bullshit. That is a stupid and lazy conclusion. Illegal immigration started long before Trump. - SIGNY

You really do say the dumbest things with such ease.- GSTRING

OK, I'll bite: Explain to me how that was a "dumb" statement. I'll bet that you can't.

Quote:
I'm going to give you one more chance to figure this out for yourself. - SIGNY

And I'll give you one more chance to read my comment again granny. I said THIS problem. Not interested in your make believe 100 year what-if scenarios.- GSTRING

THIS problem is illegal immigrants deliberately exploiting their children because they think that their children will give them a "get out of jail free" card. You solve that problem by simply not allowing them to use their children as hostages/ bargaining chips by removing the reward.

The policy of enforcing existing laws (as opposed to not enforcing laws at all) could have been made less onerous and traumatic by providing significant forewarning and notification in the countries where illegal immigrants come from or transit through. That way, we potentially wouldn't have so many people sneaking thru our borders, children in tow, on the mistaken assumption that their young'uns would allow them to disappear without ever having to face immigration.

Now, as for solving the poverty that is DRIVING illegal immigration, that takes more thought .... something that you seem incapable of.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Now, as for solving the poverty that is DRIVING illegal immigration, that takes more thought .... something that you seem incapable of.

Common illness among today's Leftists.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 6:04 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Trump ramps up rhetoric
-US President accuses Democrats of wanting 'illegal immigrants' to 'infest our country'
-live updates Trump: You have to take the children away
-analysis What Trump says on immigration vs. reality
-Kellyanne Conway fires back at Cuomo: How dare you

What to know before you cruise

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Tuesday, June 19, 2018 7:00 PM

Virginia school's namesake changes from Confederate leader to Barack Obama

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/19/virginia-school-dedicat
ed-confederate-soldier-renamed-after-president-barack-obama/715409002/

What to know before you cruise

T

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Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Meanwhile, GSTRING has not a clue as to what causes the misery that is driving people to emigrate from their country of origin, ergo it has not a clue as to how to solve the problem.

GSTRING, do you want to take a whack at this problem from a rational standpoint?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, June 29, 2018 9:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Reuters Editor Blames Trump for Annapolis Newsroom Shooting: ‘Blood on Your Hands’

Rob Cox, Global Editor for Thomson Reuters’ Breakingviews vertical, said the Capital Gazette newspaper shooting was a direct response to President Donald Trump’s criticism of the mainstream media.

This is what happens when @realDonaldTrump calls journalists the enemy of the people. Blood is on your hands, Mr. President. Save your thoughts and prayers for your empty soul.
At least four people killed in Maryland newspaper shooting: reports https://t.co/BXNOhj5BDx — Rob Cox (@rob1cox) June 28, 2018

“This is what happens when @realDonaldTrump calls journalists the enemy of the people,” Cox tweeted following the shooting. “Blood is on your hands, Mr. President. Save your thoughts and prayers for your empty soul.”

UPDATE: Cox has since deleted the tweet and acknowledges “jumping to a conclusion.”

UPDATE #2: Still hours later, Cox tweets an apology and a concession that his comments “were not in keeping with the Reuters Trust Principles.”

Law enforcement confirmed at least 5 people are dead and 7 others are injured after a suspect gunman opened fire inside the Capital Gazette’s newsroom in Annapolis, Maryland. Neither that information nor further details on the suspect were confirmed at the time of Cox’s post.

“Rob Cox helped found Breakingviews.com in 2000 in London. From 2004 he spearheaded the publication’s expansion in the United States and edited daily Breakingviews columns in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal,” according to his biography. “Rob has worked as a financial journalist in London, Milan, New York, Washington, Chicago, and Tokyo. Rob was named Global Editor of Breakingviews in December 2012, three years after it was acquired by Thomson Reuters.”

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, June 29, 2018 9:32 PM

REAVERFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
I think the citizens of the United States of America should be. He's trashed your allies and is now trying to be friends with a dictator that first started in war of insults.

Policies that rip children away from their families at the border between Mexico and the US. Detaining then somehow not knowing where I think over 1,000 of these children went and doesn't seem to care.

Blames that particular policy on the Democrats.

Came back from Singapore saying Kim is a smart, tough guy, who has his people listening to every word he says. Then follows that statement up with saying that he would like his own people to do that.

The policy to tear kids away from their parents was a trial balloon.

Normal people were outraged, but Trump AIMS to outrage decent people every day. His base, being racist, fascistic, ill-educated, little hate machines, loved it.

His popularity actually went up. Trump and his handlers are thrilled, and even nastier stuff is in the pipeline, already. Fascist America is almost here, and Putin's loving it.

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Friday, June 29, 2018 10:34 PM

BRENDA

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
I think the citizens of the United States of America should be. He's trashed your allies and is now trying to be friends with a dictator that first started in war of insults.

Policies that rip children away from their families at the border between Mexico and the US. Detaining then somehow not knowing where I think over 1,000 of these children went and doesn't seem to care.

Blames that particular policy on the Democrats.

Came back from Singapore saying Kim is a smart, tough guy, who has his people listening to every word he says. Then follows that statement up with saying that he would like his own people to do that.
The policy to tear kids away from their parents was a trial balloon.

Normal people were outraged, but Trump AIMS to outrage decent people every day. His base, being racist, fascistic, ill-educated, little hate machines, loved it.

His popularity actually went up. Trump and his handlers are thrilled, and even nastier stuff is in the pipeline, already. Fascist America is almost here, and Putin's loving it.

RF, he has succeeded. And I know that too.

Now you know why I said that I weep for my grandmother's country.

Of course it did and I do not doubt that worse is on the way.

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Friday, June 29, 2018 11:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BRENDA ... The "open borders" policy that benefited American immigrants didn't work out so well for native Americans. Seems like your family could have loyalties on both sides of the immigration issue. It sounds confusing.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, June 29, 2018 11:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Normal people were outraged, but Trump AIMS to outrage decent people every day. His base, being racist, fascistic, ill-educated, little hate machines, loved it.

His popularity actually went up. Trump and his handlers are thrilled, and even nastier stuff is in the pipeline, already. Fascist America is almost here, and Putin's loving it.

The reaction to the immigration crisis here in the USA goes far beyond Trumps base. A CBS poll - which most M$M outlets kept a lid on - shows the following:

Quote:
Today, New York City based political commentator, Ryan Girdusky, pointed out a statistic from a CBS poll released today that may surprise some Democratic officials – most Americans want parents and children who enter America illegally kept together as a unit, but prefer that the entire family is either detained or deported after they are caught crossing the border into America. In fact, just 21% of Americans believe that these illegal aliens and their offspring should be released into American streets.

That puts you in the minority.

Quote:
According to a CBS poll, 48% of Americans says that the United States government should “release the entire family back to their home country together.” 11% of Americans believe that the parents should be arrested, but have their children kept with them in the same facility.

As previously mentioned, 21% of Americans say that the government should "release the entire family in the U.S. temporarily and require that they report back for a hearing." Just 4% believed parents and children should be detained in separate facilities.

If there is a lesson that Democratic leaders can learn from this sampling of the American voter, it clearly has not resonated with candidates. Just this week, New York gubernatorial candidate Cynthia Nixon called for the abolition ICE, saying that the group responsible for tracking down illegal aliens was acting like a "terrorist organization." As Girdusky said, “This (poll) shows that Democrats are completely out of step with average Americans. Rather than learning from Hillary Clinton’s loss, they’ve doubled down on open borders, amnesty, and lawlessness and Americans don’t want it.”

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2018/06/24/untitled-n249399
6

The question is #31
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByVu4fDHYJgVTHVnZjg5R0JXQmxVNi1la0IzX
1o2X0RTZ09j/view

I think MOST Americans want control of the border. And I think that Canadians want the same.

FROM 2007

Quote:
Illegal Immigrants Chase False Hope to Canada
...The arrivals here began suddenly three weeks ago, just a family or two at first, fueled by the notion — largely unfounded, the authorities here say — that Canada would grant them asylum.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/us/21refugees.html

FROM 2017

Quote:
Illegal Immigrants May Not Find Warm Welcome in Canada
A new poll shows nearly half of Canadians want border-crossers sent back to the United States.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/20/illegal-immigrants-may-not-find-w
arm-welcome-in-canada-refugee-policy-immigration-migration-trudeau-trump-united-states-poll/

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, June 30, 2018 1:03 AM

BRENDA

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BRENDA ... The "open borders" policy that benefited American immigrants didn't work out so well for native Americans. Seems like your family could have loyalties on both sides of the immigration issue. It sounds confusing.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

"Open borders" benefitted half of my family and not the other half. My Indian ancestors didn't realize a few pale skins would become an invasion. Hence all the "Indian Wars" as they are called now.

And so yes my family does have loyalties on both sides of the issue.

My mother's family being mostly Irish fled the potato famine landing there in the US a few years before the Civil War.

My French Canadian great grandfather was a trapper and followed the trap lines and trade routes into the US and stayed there. Meeting and marrying my Shoshoni great grandmother.

My grandmother and her siblings were born in what is now the state of Montana. Then it was just a territory.

My Scot grandfather came to the New World because I don't think working for someone else tickled his fancy.

So, long story short. It is tangled. But to me it isn't really. This continent is my home. My family has shed blood for the US. My Indian family was at the Little Big Horn. The white fought in the Civil War on both sides.

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Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:27 AM

My Mexican step-father who grew up picking cotton and living in a boxcar with his parents and 8 older siblings is adamant against illegal immigration. He's the first in his family to graduate college and his daughter is a neurosurgeon. His parents came here legally and had a difficult but successful life and lived the American Dream of providing a better life for their children, which he in turn did for his own children.

He's not a big fan of free rides.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, June 30, 2018 12:43 PM

BRENDA

My Scot grandfather could have gone anywhere the British crown ruled. But he chose Canada after coming across the US and meeting and marrying my Metis grandmother.

In Canada he saw that she got her citizenship papers. I have them.

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Saturday, June 30, 2018 12:58 PM

REAVERFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Normal people were outraged, but Trump AIMS to outrage decent people every day. His base, being racist, fascistic, ill-educated, little hate machines, loved it.

His popularity actually went up. Trump and his handlers are thrilled, and even nastier stuff is in the pipeline, already. Fascist America is almost here, and Putin's loving it.
The reaction to the immigration crisis here in the USA goes far beyond Trumps base. A CBS poll - which most M$M outlets kept a lid on - shows the following:

Quote:
Today, New York City based political commentator, Ryan Girdusky, pointed out a statistic from a CBS poll released today that may surprise some Democratic officials – most Americans want parents and children who enter America illegally kept together as a unit, but prefer that the entire family is either detained or deported after they are caught crossing the border into America. In fact, just 21% of Americans believe that these illegal aliens and their offspring should be released into American streets.
That puts you in the minority.

Quote:
According to a CBS poll, 48% of Americans says that the United States government should “release the entire family back to their home country together.” 11% of Americans believe that the parents should be arrested, but have their children kept with them in the same facility.

As previously mentioned, 21% of Americans say that the government should "release the entire family in the U.S. temporarily and require that they report back for a hearing." Just 4% believed parents and children should be detained in separate facilities.

If there is a lesson that Democratic leaders can learn from this sampling of the American voter, it clearly has not resonated with candidates. Just this week, New York gubernatorial candidate Cynthia Nixon called for the abolition ICE, saying that the group responsible for tracking down illegal aliens was acting like a "terrorist organization." As Girdusky said, “This (poll) shows that Democrats are completely out of step with average Americans. Rather than learning from Hillary Clinton’s loss, they’ve doubled down on open borders, amnesty, and lawlessness and Americans don’t want it.”
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2018/06/24/untitled-n249399
6

The question is #31
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByVu4fDHYJgVTHVnZjg5R0JXQmxVNi1la0IzX
1o2X0RTZ09j/view

I think MOST Americans want control of the border. And I think that Canadians want the same.

FROM 2007
Quote:
Illegal Immigrants Chase False Hope to Canada
...The arrivals here began suddenly three weeks ago, just a family or two at first, fueled by the notion — largely unfounded, the authorities here say — that Canada would grant them asylum.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/us/21refugees.html

FROM 2017
Quote:
Illegal Immigrants May Not Find Warm Welcome in Canada
A new poll shows nearly half of Canadians want border-crossers sent back to the United States.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/20/illegal-immigrants-may-not-find-w
arm-welcome-in-canada-refugee-policy-immigration-migration-trudeau-trump-united-states-poll/

Townhall? LOL!

Talk about loaded questions. I'm supposing this was done on landlines, too.

"In fact, just 21% of Americans believe that these illegal aliens and their offspring should be released into American streets.

That puts you in the minority}"

"Illegal aliens released into American streets..."

Do you not see the idiocy here? LOL!

EDIT: You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS.

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Saturday, June 30, 2018 1:48 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS.

Anyone crossing the border without going thru a port of entry, EVEN IF THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, has committed the crime of illegal entry. Filing for asylum after-the-fact does not negate their illegal entry. All that filing for asylum does is put their name in some docket where their actual status will be adjudicated. And btw- very few of them will meet the high bar that is set for being granted asylum after illegal entry; and most of them will be deportable.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 1, 2018 12:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS.
Anyone crossing the border without going thru a port of entry, EVEN IF THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, has committed the crime of illegal entry. Filing for asylum after-the-fact does not negate their illegal entry. All that filing for asylum does is put their name in some docket where their actual status will be adjudicated. And btw- very few of them will meet the high bar that is set for being granted asylum after illegal entry; and most of them will be deportable.

I know. This is so laughable. I think in RF's head that simply living outside of the US is grounds for seeking asylum. He also brings up that many of these people crossed through Mexico from South America to seek asylum here. I wonder why none of them sought asylum in Mexico? Think it might be because there are no free lunches in Mexico?

Remember those old phone commercials by Ma Bell with the "Phone First" jingle? It's 2018. Probably should at least hop on the internet and get your asylum paperwork started before you trek a few thousand miles to illegally cross the border and try to scam the American system after the fact.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, July 2, 2018 2:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS.
Anyone crossing the border without going thru a port of entry, EVEN IF THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, has committed the crime of illegal entry. Filing for asylum after-the-fact does not negate their illegal entry. All that filing for asylum does is put their name in some docket where their actual status will be adjudicated. And btw- very few of them will meet the high bar that is set for being granted asylum after illegal entry; and most of them will be deportable.

Do you have reliable numbers for "very few"? MSM has kept that buried.

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Monday, September 3, 2018 2:17 PM

Did this used to be the Black Hole thread?

Anybody notice the MSM has been feverishly hiding the news of drastic reductions in Obamacare Rate Increases?
Libtards universally proclaimed that Trump's changes to Obamacare were going to cause Health Care Insurance rates to skyrocket. And they were planning for this to be a central campaign feature and mantra for the Mid-term Elections.
But since Facts and Truth have, as always, proven Nostradoofus Libtards completely wrong, the press is diligently keeping mum.

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Monday, September 3, 2018 2:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Did this used to be the Black Hole thread?

Anybody notice the MSM has been feverishly hiding the news of drastic reductions in Obamacare Rate Increases?
Libtards universally proclaimed that Trump's changes to Obamacare were going to cause Health Care Insurance rates to skyrocket. And they were planning for this to be a central campaign feature and mantra for the Mid-term Elections.
But since Facts and Truth have, as always, proven Nostradoofus Libtards completely wrong, the press is diligently keeping mum.

Do you have data to support this?

All I have is a personal anecdote that since the year that Obamacare was instated, last November was the first year my old man hasn't told me about a massive hike in his monthly insurance premiums for my step-mom. That's not to say that there wasn't. Just that I didn't hear of one by him.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, September 3, 2018 2:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS. - STINKYBREATHE

Anyone crossing the border without going thru a port of entry, EVEN IF THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, has committed the crime of illegal entry. Filing for asylum after-the-fact does not negate their illegal entry. All that filing for asylum does is put their name in some docket where their actual status will be adjudicated. And btw- very few of them will meet the high bar that is set for being granted asylum after illegal entry; and most of them will be deportable. -SIGNY

Do you have reliable numbers for "very few"? MSM has kept that buried.- JSF

Very few of what? The problem is that Immigration presents very garbled statistics. Approximately 20,000 people are granted asylum status each year. But these are people who requested asylum status both before they entered the country (legally) and after they entered the country (illegally). There are about 1.5 million legal entries and about 0.5 million* illegal entries per year (*It used to be more like 1.7 million illegal entries), so out of the total number of entries roughly 1% are granted asylum. The highest number of asylees come from China.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-stat
es
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2016/table19

The question that I think you're asking is What percentage of people entering the United States illegally and requesting asylum defensively are granted asylee status? Unfortunately, those statistics are buried in the bowels of the bureaucracy. I wish I had an answer, but haven't found the statistics that would allow me to even estimate that answer, much less a direct number.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, September 3, 2018 10:11 PM

You need to look up the definition of fascism, son.

And once you've done that, you're going to have to look up the meaning of at least 4 words in that definition, just to make sure you're reading it right.

You sound like a clown when you use it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, September 4, 2018 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
You probably don't. People seeking asylum aren't illegals. That Trump decided to treat them as such is just the beginning of your BS. - STINKYBREATHE

Anyone crossing the border without going thru a port of entry, EVEN IF THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, has committed the crime of illegal entry. Filing for asylum after-the-fact does not negate their illegal entry. All that filing for asylum does is put their name in some docket where their actual status will be adjudicated. And btw- very few of them will meet the high bar that is set for being granted asylum after illegal entry; and most of them will be deportable. -SIGNY

Do you have reliable numbers for "very few"? MSM has kept that buried.- JSF

Very few of what? The problem is that Immigration presents very garbled statistics. Approximately 20,000 people are granted asylum status each year. But these are people who requested asylum status both before they entered the country (legally) and after they entered the country (illegally). There are about 1.5 million legal entries and about 0.5 million* illegal entries per year (*It used to be more like 1.7 million illegal entries), so out of the total number of entries roughly 1% are granted asylum. The highest number of asylees come from China.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-stat
es
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2016/table19

The question that I think you're asking is What percentage of people entering the United States illegally and requesting asylum defensively are granted asylee status? Unfortunately, those statistics are buried in the bowels of the bureaucracy. I wish I had an answer, but haven't found the statistics that would allow me to even estimate that answer, much less a direct number.

Yep, that's what I was asking.

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Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:08 PM