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Originally posted by THG:
re·pub·lic

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

That's us

T

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Yes, because less jobs is always the best way to solve problems.

Why not 90%? Or 100%?
How much is too high?

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We're living in Post-Capitalism America.

Our government has not done its job and has allowed monopolistic companies to thrive to the point that we're all going to be working for the same 2 or 3 companies once they've pushed all the little guys out.

Your DOW Jones you ramble on about all the time is the main impetus for this.

Capitalism is great. It doesn't exist in America anymore though.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Where does your Republican rep. stand? I know where mine stand. They love their dark money and they hate to speak to their constituents, and will only do so in the most controlled settings.

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Originally posted by reaverfan:

Quote:

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Originally posted by THG:
re·pub·lic

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

That's us

T

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Elected officials need to ask themselves a very simple question: Who do I represent?







The people who give me campaign money, or the people who elected me?

I know where AOC stands. In her case, she represents both at once. She eschewed corporate money, and funded herself with the grassroots. She'll have that job as long as she wants it.

Where does your Republican rep. stand? I know where mine stand. They love their dark money and they hate to speak to their constituents, and will only do so in the most controlled settings.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
This country FYI, is a Democratic Socialist society.

A Democracy:

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control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.

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Democratic socialism:

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is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market or some form of decentralized planned socialist economy.

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Countries that have democratic socialism:
Armenia, Bolivia, Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, France, Germany, Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Moldova, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Northern Ireland, Norway, Peru, Portugal, Serbia, Slovenia, Sweden,
Tunisia, Turkey, United Kingdom, Venezuela.

Just to name a few.

SGG

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Ah... I see we have a few fans of Socialism on this thread.

We already knew that, and they already denied it, but here we are...

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
This woman is a force of nature.

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A Socialist Government is one which controls all aspects of Production. Like Nazi Germany, for example.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
People confuse socialism with a welfare state. Altho in reality there's a lot of overlap, the two are not the same. JSF is correct in saying

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A Socialist Government is one which controls all aspects of Production. Like Nazi Germany, for example.

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"Nazi" is in fact a contraction of "national socialism". Ocasio-Cortez seems more interested in creating a welfare state.

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Do I need to prove you're lying

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
People confuse socialism with a welfare state. Altho in reality there's a lot of overlap, the two are not the same. JSF is correct in saying

Quote:

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A Socialist Government is one which controls all aspects of Production. Like Nazi Germany, for example.

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"Nazi" is in fact a contraction of "national socialism". Ocasio-Cortez seems more interested in creating a welfare state.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Let's get one thing out of the way first: Nazi = Nationalsozialismus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

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Well, if you call Social Security and Unions a welfare state. Then yes.

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WASHINGTON (CNN) - The Green New Deal, which has so far been a campaign catchphrase about solving climate change and inequality in one fell swoop, just got real.

Democratic New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Sen. Ed Markey of Massachusetts are introducing a joint resolution Thursday laying out the main elements of a legislative plan. It describes a 10-year "economic mobilization" that would phase out fossil fuel use and overhaul the nation's infrastructure while building whole new layers into the existing social safety net.

The 14-page resolution envisions a shift to 100% renewable and zero-emission energy sources, and calls for the creation of millions of new high-wage jobs to help wipe out poverty.

While calling for the elimination of pollution and greenhouse gas emissions in agriculture, transportation, manufacturing and construction, the resolution contains no mention of bans or regulation, as other plans have described.

The closest it comes is a provision for existing and new laws to take into account the negative impacts of climate change — an approach that the Obama administration had taken through incorporating the "social cost of carbon" into rulemaking, which the Trump administration has pulled back on.

Instead, the document emphasizes massive public investment in wind and solar production, zero-emission vehicles and high-speed rail, energy-efficient buildings, and smart power grids, as well as "working collaboratively" with farmers and ranchers to move towards sustainable agriculture techniques.

The resolution also fleshes out something that's been core to the idea of the Green New Deal from the beginning: Remedying historic injustices visited upon the poor and people of color.

Public investments should prioritize what the resolution calls "frontline and vulnerable communities," which include people in rural and de-industrialized areas as well as those that depend on carbon-intensive industries like oil and gas extraction.

And in a move that may draw support from a broad range of advocacy groups, the resolution sweeps in the full range of progressive policy priorities: Providing universal healthcare and affordable housing, ensuring that all jobs have union protections and family-sustaining wages, and keeping the business environment free of monopolistic competition.

The cost of all this, and where the money to pay for it will come from, remains unclear.

Ocasio-Cortez and the groups supporting her push for the Green New Deal have declined to put a price tag on the plan, and it still lacks enough specifics to estimate with any kind of precision.

An analysis of another, similar plan by the conservative American Action Forum found pegged the regulatory burden at about $1 trillion, before any new investments.

Still, the New Dealers argue that a federally-funded energy transition would stimulate growth by providing jobs, improving public health, and reducing waste. In addition, they argue that the government could capture more return on investment by retaining equity stakes in the projects they build. More generally, however, they brush off cost concerns by pointing to unquestioned government spending on wars and tax cuts, which have ballooned deficits in the past.

"The question isn't how will we pay for it, but what is the cost of inaction, and what will we do with our new shared prosperity created by the investments in the Green New Deal," reads a fact sheet distributed along with the resolution.

In recent weeks, people ranging from Beto O'Rourke to Mike Bloomberg have professed support for the general idea. But the sheer scale of the resolution, which would entail a much larger role for the federal government than has been seen since the Great Depression, may make it difficult for more moderate politicians to claim they support the Green New Deal as now defined.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Ocasio-Cortez has a NEW wish-list: The New Green Deal

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PRESIDENT: Here in the United States, we are alarmed by the new calls to adopt socialism in our country.

AUDIENCE: Booo —

THE PRESIDENT: America was founded on liberty and independence, and not government coercion, domination, and control. (Applause.) We are born free and we will stay free. (Applause.)

AUDIENCE: USA! USA! USA!

THE PRESIDENT: Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country. (Applause.)

AUDIENCE: USA! USA! USA!

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And we have unleashed a revolution in American energy. The United States is now the number-one producer of oil and natural gas anywhere in the world. (Applause.) And now, for the first time in 65 years, we are a net exporter of energy. (Applause.)

After 24 months of rapid progress, our economy is the envy of the world, our military is the most powerful on Earth, by far, and America — (applause) — America is again winning each and every day. (Applause.)

Members of Congress: The state of our union is strong. (Applause.)

AUDIENCE: USA! USA! USA!

THE PRESIDENT: That sounds so good. (Laughter.)

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
lol Snopes

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
Your lies, utterly destroyed, Russian troll.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Originally posted by reaverfan:
Your lies, utterly destroyed, Russian troll.

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I have no idea what your video is trying to say. In any case, I wasn't even posting about "fascism" - which seems to be what this video is all about (except dissing Prager U) - so your post is entirely misdirected. We were discussing socialism versus the welfare state. JSF's definition of socialism is correct. You brains must have exploded out of your head a long, long time ago.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Trump Jr. rips Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal As ‘Socialism’

Ocasio-Cortez and Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) outlined an ambitious “ten-year national mobilization” plan to build “smart grids” and boost power generated from the sun and wind to as close to 100 percent as possible over the next decade.

Donald Jr. scoffed at the inevitable failure of the idea that sounded to him like “socialism.”

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-jr-ocasio-cortez-green-new-d
eal-socialism_us_5c5d02cfe4b0e01e32aaff06

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
People confuse socialism with a welfare state. Altho in reality there's a lot of overlap, the two are not the same. JSF is correct in saying

Quote:

---

A Socialist Government is one which controls all aspects of Production. Like Nazi Germany, for example.

---

"Nazi" is in fact a contraction of "national socialism". Ocasio-Cortez seems more interested in creating a welfare state.

---

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Ocasio-Cortez has a NEW wish-list: The New Green Deal

Quote:

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WASHINGTON (CNN) - The Green New Deal, which has so far been a campaign catchphrase about solving climate change and inequality in one fell swoop, just got real.

Democratic New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Sen. Ed Markey of Massachusetts are introducing a joint resolution Thursday laying out the main elements of a legislative plan. It describes a 10-year "economic mobilization" that would phase out fossil fuel use and overhaul the nation's infrastructure while building whole new layers into the existing social safety net.

The 14-page resolution envisions a shift to 100% renewable and zero-emission energy sources, and calls for the creation of millions of new high-wage jobs to help wipe out poverty.

While calling for the elimination of pollution and greenhouse gas emissions in agriculture, transportation, manufacturing and construction, the resolution contains no mention of bans or regulation, as other plans have described.

The closest it comes is a provision for existing and new laws to take into account the negative impacts of climate change — an approach that the Obama administration had taken through incorporating the "social cost of carbon" into rulemaking, which the Trump administration has pulled back on.

Instead, the document emphasizes massive public investment in wind and solar production, zero-emission vehicles and high-speed rail, energy-efficient buildings, and smart power grids, as well as "working collaboratively" with farmers and ranchers to move towards sustainable agriculture techniques.

The resolution also fleshes out something that's been core to the idea of the Green New Deal from the beginning: Remedying historic injustices visited upon the poor and people of color.

Public investments should prioritize what the resolution calls "frontline and vulnerable communities," which include people in rural and de-industrialized areas as well as those that depend on carbon-intensive industries like oil and gas extraction.

And in a move that may draw support from a broad range of advocacy groups, the resolution sweeps in the full range of progressive policy priorities: Providing universal healthcare and affordable housing, ensuring that all jobs have union protections and family-sustaining wages, and keeping the business environment free of monopolistic competition.

The cost of all this, and where the money to pay for it will come from, remains unclear.

Ocasio-Cortez and the groups supporting her push for the Green New Deal have declined to put a price tag on the plan, and it still lacks enough specifics to estimate with any kind of precision.

An analysis of another, similar plan by the conservative American Action Forum found pegged the regulatory burden at about $1 trillion, before any new investments.

Still, the New Dealers argue that a federally-funded energy transition would stimulate growth by providing jobs, improving public health, and reducing waste. In addition, they argue that the government could capture more return on investment by retaining equity stakes in the projects they build. More generally, however, they brush off cost concerns by pointing to unquestioned government spending on wars and tax cuts, which have ballooned deficits in the past.

"The question isn't how will we pay for it, but what is the cost of inaction, and what will we do with our new shared prosperity created by the investments in the Green New Deal," reads a fact sheet distributed along with the resolution.

In recent weeks, people ranging from Beto O'Rourke to Mike Bloomberg have professed support for the general idea. But the sheer scale of the resolution, which would entail a much larger role for the federal government than has been seen since the Great Depression, may make it difficult for more moderate politicians to claim they support the Green New Deal as now defined.

---

https://www.wsls.com/news/politics/ocasiocortezs-green-new-deal-whats-
in-it

The House New Green Deal resolution
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5729033/Green-New-Deal-FINA
L.pdf

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Your lies, utterly destroyed, Russian troll.

I have no idea what your video is trying to say. In any case, I wasn't even posting about "fascism" - which seems to be what this video is all about (except dissing Prager U) - so your post is entirely misdirected. We were discussing socialism versus the welfare state. JSF's definition of socialism is correct. You brains must have exploded out of your head a long, long time ago.

The Nazis weren't socialists. They murdered socialists.REAVERBOT

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Do I need to prove you're lying

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Yes.

But let's get one thing out of the way first: Nazi = Nationalsozialismus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Back to the topic at-hand. With AOC's new wishlist, she has moved from welfare statist to actual socialist, as it seems she wants to control energy production and energy conservation.

However, she's still relying on The Fed, which is a fatal flaw in her thinking. There are a three reasons why its a terrible idea, environmentally, financially, and ideologically, to continue to allow The Fed's continued existence, but I'm not going to go into that now... just too busy.

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Quote:

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Back to the topic at-hand. With AOC's new wishlist, she has moved from welfare statist to actual socialist, as it seems she wants to control energy production and energy conservation.

However, she's still relying on The Fed, which is a fatal flaw in her thinking. There are a three reasons why its a terrible idea, environmentally, financially, and ideologically, to continue to allow The Fed's continued existence, but I'm not going to go into that now... just too busy. SIGNY

The GOP does not believe that greenhouse gases change the climate. Since CO2 is not a problem in the opinion of the GOP, fossil fuels are not a problem and the cheapest energy will be burning fossil fuel for power. Trump administration on Wednesday (Feb. 6) moved to roll back an Obama-era rule that would make light bulbs more efficient. More CO2. https://qz.com/1546400/ Trump did the same with vehicle mileage standards. More CO2. And coal. More CO2.

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Anybody who uses "Socialism" or "Socialist" because they know the lowbrows will consider it a smear, are just dead in the head. That's ancient, backward, minimal thinking at best. Think first of the problem and then how to solve it. Be as creative and inventive as you can, everything is on the table. It's called a "Wish List" for a reason. I'd call it a "Should List." We should have energy independence, we should have Health Care for all. And not just average HC, but leading the world health care. We should have free college, we should have... on and on. If you don't put the goals out there you have what we have now - old selfish crabbie rich f*cking white dudes just hanging and f*ck everyone else.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Back to the topic at-hand. With AOC's new wishlist, she has moved from welfare statist to actual socialist, as it seems she wants to control energy production and energy conservation.

However, she's still relying on The Fed, which is a fatal flaw in her thinking. There are a three reasons why its a terrible idea, environmentally, financially, and ideologically, to continue to allow The Fed's continued existence, but I'm not going to go into that now... just too busy. SIGNY

The GOP does not believe that greenhouse gases change the climate. Since CO2 is not a problem in the opinion of the GOP, fossil fuels are not a problem and the cheapest energy will be burning fossil fuel for power. Trump administration on Wednesday (Feb. 6) moved to roll back an Obama-era rule that would make light bulbs more efficient. More CO2. https://qz.com/1546400/ Trump did the same with vehicle mileage standards. More CO2. And coal. More CO2.

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Well this is one area where I profoundly disagree with Trump specifically and the GOP in general. I also disagree with the LaRouche end of the Libertarians on that issue, since they believe that there is no limit to human growth and development because technology will always find new energy sources. Sorry, but what does that have to do with the topic? I'm not a single-issue voter, and IMHO the first thing that ANY President needs to do BEFORE instituting environmental regulations is to not make them hostage to "free trade" agreements. So AOC can thank Trump for keeping us out of two of the worst free trade boondoggles, and preserving her ability to dream big about possible solutions to the problem, and so can you and REAVERBOT.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

You disagree with something specific from the GOP or Trump? Or you disagree with what second posits as the viewpoint of somebody else?
Second never tells the truth when ranting in his tangential diatribes.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Your lies, utterly destroyed, Russian troll.

I have no idea what your video is trying to say. In any case, I wasn't even posting about "fascism" - which seems to be what this video is all about (except dissing Prager U) - so your post is entirely misdirected. We were discussing socialism versus the welfare state. JSF's definition of socialism is correct. You brains must have exploded out of your head a long, long time ago.

The Nazis weren't socialists. They murdered socialists.REAVERBOT

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Oh because socialists would never murder socialists??

That's about as ridiculous as saying that Christians would never murder Christians (see 100 Years War).

I could go into great detail about the vying power structures in Germany between the national socialists (Nazis) and the international socialists ("communists") but it would be lost on you. Your argument is as devoid of reality as arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whether the wine and bread REALLY become the blood and body of Christ or merely represent it,

Wars have been fought over less.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

---

Quote:

---

Back to the topic at-hand. With AOC's new wishlist, she has moved from welfare statist to actual socialist, as it seems she wants to control energy production and energy conservation.

However, she's still relying on The Fed, which is a fatal flaw in her thinking. There are a three reasons why its a terrible idea, environmentally, financially, and ideologically, to continue to allow The Fed's continued existence, but I'm not going to go into that now... just too busy. SIGNY

The GOP does not believe that greenhouse gases change the climate. Since CO2 is not a problem in the opinion of the GOP, fossil fuels are not a problem and the cheapest energy will be burning fossil fuel for power. Trump administration on Wednesday (Feb. 6) moved to roll back an Obama-era rule that would make light bulbs more efficient. More CO2. https://qz.com/1546400/ Trump did the same with vehicle mileage standards. More CO2. And coal. More CO2. - SECOND

Well this is one area where I profoundly disagree with Trump specifically and the GOP in general. I also disagree with the LaRouche end of the Libertarians on that issue, since they believe that there is no limit to human growth and development because technology will always find new energy sources. Sorry, but what does that have to do with the topic? I'm not a single-issue voter, and IMHO the first thing that ANY President needs to do BEFORE instituting environmental regulations is to not make them hostage to "free trade" agreements. So AOC can thank Trump for keeping us out of two of the worst free trade boondoggles, and preserving her ability to dream big about possible solutions to the problem, and so can you and REAVERBOT.- SIGNY

You disagree with something specific from the GOP or Trump? Or you disagree with what second posits as the viewpoint of somebody else?
Second never tells the truth when ranting in his tangential diatribes.

So what are you disagreeing with?

Is CO2 your concern?

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I have not heard mention of rainforests lately.

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Do you feel wildfires add CO2? Instead of growing a little wood and then burning it in wildfires, would it not be better to harvest the wood and restart the wood growth before it is lost to wildfire? The harvested wood would displace some of the need for rainforest lumber.

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I have forgotten the answer to this: does a mature wood consume more CO2, or a growing wood or saplings in a similar footprint? We know that for fauna, the growth stage consumes far more essential resources than the full grown adult - is that the same for flora?

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
We should probably start harvesting hemp again, now that weed is being legalized all over the country.

Why isn't that at thing?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Before people used "socialism" as a smear, they used "commie". (Now, they use "Russian".) Then, when "socialism" became a smear, left-wing Democrats called themselves "Liberals". When "liberal" became a smear, they opted to call themselves "progressives". Now, I don't know WTF the left-end of the Democratic Party calls themselves, since they've allowed themselves to be pushed off their nomeclature.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I suggest that people use the already-established definitions, as I do. If you believe that government should have a large hand in funding and determining production, you're a socialist; and if you believe in a national character to socialism (as opposed to global or international socialism) you're a national socialist. If you believe that such a government should be under control of the popular vote, you're a democratic socialist. If you believe that corporations should control government, you're a fascist. If you believe that governments should be under the control of international banks and corporations, you're an international fascist, AKA globalist. If you believe that corporatism is the right economc system but that government needs to step in to ameliorate its worst excesses, then you believe in the welfare state.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Probably because it is Illegal, all over the country. There is no place in America where it is not Illegal.

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