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Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Spoken like a man who really has no idea about abortion - or women for that matter.

Here are a few reasons:

Many tests are only able to be done post first trimester - so if you have an unviable pregnancy or serious issue with the foetus you probably won’t know til 15+ weeks
Many women have irregular periods - particularly if they are older and may not be aware that they are pregnant til past first trimester
Many women have bleeding throughout their pregnancy -
Many women have few pregnancy symptoms and may not even show or feel any movement

In any event- what’s it to you / there are a million reasons why someone might need an abortion - it’s a discussion for a woman and her health care provider - not you. I note that this is not about limiting abortion but for many states prevention all together - not even being able to procure one elsewhere. It’s totally backwards

Obviously earlier termination is safest and less traumatic but you’d have to have a decent health care system for that

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Spoken like a man who really has no idea about abortion - or women for that matter.

Here are a few reasons:

Many tests are only able to be done post first trimester - so if you have an unviable pregnancy or serious issue with the foetus you probably won’t know til 15+ weeks
Many women have irregular periods - particularly if they are older and may not be aware that they are pregnant til past first trimester
Many women have bleeding throughout their pregnancy -
Many women have few pregnancy symptoms and may not even show or feel any movement

In any event- what’s it to you / there are a million reasons why someone might need an abortion - it’s a discussion for a woman and her health care provider - not you. I note that this is not about limiting abortion but for many states prevention all together - not even being able to procure one elsewhere. It’s totally backwards

Obviously earlier termination is safest and less traumatic but you’d have to have a decent health care system for that

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What's it to me?

A slut that I knocked up murdered my baby. She didn't ask my opinion. The doctors didn't ask my opinion. The state didn't ask my opinion.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Spoken like a man who really has no idea about abortion - or women for that matter.

Here are a few reasons:

Many tests are only able to be done post first trimester - so if you have an unviable pregnancy or serious issue with the foetus you probably won’t know til 15+ weeks
Many women have irregular periods - particularly if they are older and may not be aware that they are pregnant til past first trimester
Many women have bleeding throughout their pregnancy -
Many women have few pregnancy symptoms and may not even show or feel any movement

In any event- what’s it to you / there are a million reasons why someone might need an abortion - it’s a discussion for a woman and her health care provider - not you. I note that this is not about limiting abortion but for many states prevention all together - not even being able to procure one elsewhere. It’s totally backwards

Obviously earlier termination is safest and less traumatic but you’d have to have a decent health care system for that

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What's it to me?

A slut that I knocked up murdered my baby. She didn't ask my opinion. The doctors didn't ask my opinion. The state didn't ask my opinion.

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Why should it?

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE someone poor - William Blake

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Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Spoken like a man who really has no idea about abortion - or women for that matter.

Here are a few reasons:

Many tests are only able to be done post first trimester - so if you have an unviable pregnancy or serious issue with the foetus you probably won’t know til 15+ weeks
Many women have irregular periods - particularly if they are older and may not be aware that they are pregnant til past first trimester
Many women have bleeding throughout their pregnancy -
Many women have few pregnancy symptoms and may not even show or feel any movement

In any event- what’s it to you / there are a million reasons why someone might need an abortion - it’s a discussion for a woman and her health care provider - not you. I note that this is not about limiting abortion but for many states prevention all together - not even being able to procure one elsewhere. It’s totally backwards

Obviously earlier termination is safest and less traumatic but you’d have to have a decent health care system for that


SIX: What's it to me?
A slut that I knocked up murdered my baby. She didn't ask my opinion. The doctors didn't ask my opinion. The state didn't ask my opinion.

SIGNY: Why should it?

SIX: Because if she decided that she wanted it and I didn't, I'd have been paying child support for 18 years and half of college.

That's fucking why.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I woud return your words to you:

If you're having sex (especially sex with sluts) and you don't want children, use reliable birth control. Always.

But your heartburn seems more in the other direction: What if she doesnt want children but you do?

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I woud return your words to you:

If you're having sex (especially sex with sluts) and you don't want children, use reliable birth control. Always.

But your heartburn seems more in the other direction: What if she doesnt want children but you do?

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That's not an argument.

It's moot now, anyhow. The days of women having their cake and/or playing baby executrix are coming to an end.

I would suggest to any young women out there who are going to have an abortion in the first trimester going forward to just keep the fact that they're pregnant to themselves.

If you haven't noticed, it's become quite a bit more of a crazy, murderous world out there than it was 20 years ago, and I'll bet there will be no shortage of Zoomer 20-somethings with the maturity of a 2nd grader who aren't going to be able to internalize their hate like I did, and that callous choice just may end up ruining three lives instead of just one.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I didn't think of her as a slut when we were together.

It's funny how your perceptions of someone change after they tell you they're pregnant and then they murder the baby and tell you about it over the phone. Hell... The message probably would have come via text in the 2020s.

She was on the pill. At least she said she was.
She's a liar and a baby murderer.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I didn't think of her as a slut when we were together.

It's funny how your perceptions of someone change after they tell you they're pregnant and then they murder the baby and tell you about it over the phone. Hell... The message probably would have come via text in the 2020s.

She was on the pill. At least she said she was.
She's a liar and a baby murderer.

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NO method of birth control is 100% sure except sterilization or vasectomy. (Even after a vasectomy there are still live sperm wriggling around. I think men need to wait two weeks before having unprotected sex.) With birth control pills, there are any number of reasons for failure including the pill being too low a dose or the woman being overweight, and some interfering anticonvulsants, antibiotics, and herbals/supplements (like St John's wort), or taking the pill late. If birth cntrol is used PERFECTLY it still fails 2% of the time, and in the real world it fails 10% of the time.

You were OK with her taking birth control pills THEN. You apparently didn't like the idea of being a father THEN. You weren't ready to be a father THEN. If you really wanted to be a father THEN, you could have told her that you would like to try again, on purpose, and proposed to her to make the idea real. But your childhood experience could have made you gun shy about the idea of family. It would be understandable: having a bad experience makes people not want to repeat that experience!

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That hints that you might not be ready for fatherhood, even now. Being a good parent and spouse involves a lot of sacrifice and compromise, and you can't carry grudges or engage in unrealistic thinking if you want to raise your child right. I should know: life doesn't always happen ideally.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
One week???

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So, what happened in that week? Did you talk to your then g/f? Say anything about getting tested or ask how far along she was or... anything?

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Of course there is room for grieving if the child you thought you might have doesn’t eventuate - been there plenty of times- but boy does 6 hold a grudge.

Personally a good thing that they didn’t have to co parent or 6 pay any child support. It would have been a world of pain - very few people do it well and 6 - well he is a true misogynist so it would have been bad all round. An unwanted child, a financial burden and bitter resentment- hell it’s his MOD all over.

I don’t wonder at the number of abortions - I wonder that people don’t do it more frankly -

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Yeah I dont know you but I’ve read your bitter hate filled rants over the years.
Men like you are why women fight so hard for reproductive rights like contraception and access to safe abortion, so they don’t end up tithed to some resentful jerk.
That woman you slept with - she couldn’t win. If she’d had the baby you would have been a trapped man who had to support a kid you didn’t want or the ‘slut’ who making a decision about her own body and future - murdered your child.
It’s a good thing you stay clear of women - that at least is a good decision on your behalf.

Men with your views - and thankfully not all men- have always resented womens capacity to produce life - it makes you furious that that is something you can not do and historically the patriarchy has done it’s darndest to make sure that women can’t make choices around their own fertility. I know this discussion is pointless because you so deeply hate women, but having control over one’s fertility was a total game changer for us. We weren’t stuck with having unwanted children to care for and to raise - because that is women lot when they fall pregnant - 20+ years of financial emotional and physical support - longer if your child has a disability or mental health problems.

So you want to thrown your views around about abortion - you get to be judged on the process. That’s how it goes.

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Yeah I dont know you but I’ve read your bitter hate filled rants over the years.
Men like you are why women fight so hard for reproductive rights like contraception and access to safe abortion, so they don’t end up tithed to some resentful jerk.
That woman you slept with - she couldn’t win. If she’d had the baby you would have been a trapped man who had to support a kid you didn’t want or the ‘slut’ who making a decision about her own body and future - murdered your child.
It’s a good thing you stay clear of women - that at least is a good decision on your behalf.

Men with your views - and thankfully not all men- have always resented womens capacity to produce life - it makes you furious that that is something you can not do and historically the patriarchy has done it’s darndest to make sure that women can’t make choices around their own fertility. I know this discussion is pointless because you so deeply hate women, but having control over one’s fertility was a total game changer for us. We weren’t stuck with having unwanted children to care for and to raise - because that is women lot when they fall pregnant - 20+ years of financial emotional and physical support - longer if your child has a disability or mental health problems.

So you want to thrown your views around about abortion - you get to be judged on the process. That’s how it goes.

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Here's a lesson kids...

Anybody (Man or Woman ) who uses the word "Patriarchy" not ironically is somebody who's opinions on anything can easily be ignored, and nothing of value will be lost by not allowing this person into your life.

Get fucked, you little vampire potbelly goblin.



--------------------------------------------------

Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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Originally posted by SignyM:
One week???

SIX: Yeah. One week. I'm sure I've had to have mentioned that one of the times this issue has come up before. What's this... like the 4th time now?

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SIGNY: I was under the impression that you didn't even know there was a pregnancy until afterwards.

SIX: What? No. My whole problem was that she called me up to tell me that she was pregnant and thought it was mine. Then I finally get a call from her a week later and she said "You know that problem I was talking about before? I took care of it."

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SIGNY: So, what happened in that week? Did you talk to your then g/f? Say anything about getting tested or ask how far along she was or... anything?

SIX: We didn't talk at all. I don't think she liked the way the phone conversation went when she decided to dump it on me over the phone instead of in person like a normal human being would have done. I tried calling her back, but she didn't answer.

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SIX: Had I known baby murder was not only on the table but actively being pursued, I would have gone to see her personally.

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SIX: I don't know how long these things take, which is why I always suspected she was lying and testing me because of how quick it happened. But to be able to say that maybe something good comes out of rehashing this shit once again, maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt on two fronts here...
1. Maybe she wasn't lying.
2. Maybe the timetable was a lot longer than one week on her side of the equation.

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SIX: I have no idea what the support system was on her side or what pressures anybody else was putting on her. I'd only ever met her dad once, and never met anybody else in her family. The only friends I knew she had were people we both knew through the party scene that we met at several parties before getting together. I never really got the feeling that she had any close friends. A lot of girls I had dated prior to her had a lot of female friends who I got to know well during the dating process, but this girl never wanted to hang out with anybody else when we were together unless it was another party. As relationships go, this wasn't exactly a long one... and had what happened never have happened, she'd might not even be somebody I really remember dating in the first place all these years later.

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SIX: She could have already been a month or more into the process of getting an abortion.

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SIX: Maybe that one call to me WAS the only time that somebody asked my opinion. Maybe she wanted me to say something that would save her from doing something she really didn't want to do and I fucked that up because I was a dumb 22 year old AND I did not know the full scope of what was already being planned behind the scenes.

Assuming the whole thing wasn't just a manipulative lie, I'm probably being unfair to her. My problem with this whole system as it is isn't really with Women themselves. It's how women are enabled and entitled to do all of this, and how unfair the burden of everything ends up being on men.

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SIX: Everything is decidedly slanted in the woman's favor. The only way to be a free man is to not have sex with women if you're not sterilized, never get married to a woman, and don't ever move in with one where someday somebody can come after your money and belongings under some common-law loopholes.

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SIX: My non-home-improvement expenses so far this year haven't even hit $3,000. That's everything including insurance and half of my yearly property taxes. One of my married with children buddies needs to make twice that much in a month just to cover the basic bills. And he's not even the one who's been paying child support and college fees out his ass for the last 20 years.

Gross.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Keep telling yourself that Jack. Still hating on someone that 'did you wrong' 20+ years ago.

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Still hating on somebody who murdered a baby 20 years ago.

You, on the other hand, are just as insignifigant to me today as you were before I had the pleasure of meeting you. There is nothing that you could possibly ever do or say to change that fact.

And mama, I know it's tearing you up inside.

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Meanwhile, is Texas truly the most backward place on Earth (although I hear Houston is quite okay)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
One week???

SIX: Yeah. One week. I'm sure I've had to have mentioned that one of the times this issue has come up before. What's this... like the 4th time now?

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I've only heard the end part of the story: how you hate the slut who murdered your baby and how women have all the power.

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You only LISTENED to that part of the story before. I've told it every time. There's no reason to have not done so. I'm assuming the rest of it got through to you now because KIKI isn't here.

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SIGNY: I was under the impression that you didn't even know there was a pregnancy until afterwards.

SIX: What? No. My whole problem was that she called me up to tell me that she was pregnant and thought it was mine. Then I finally get a call from her a week later and she said "You know that problem I was talking about before? I took care of it."

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THOUGHT it was yours? She wasn't sure? She was having sex with other men at the time? Seems a bit more complicated than I thought.

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Isn't "love" always?

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SIGNY: So, what happened in that week? Did you talk to your then g/f? Say anything about getting tested or ask how far along she was or... anything?

SIX: We didn't talk at all. I don't think she liked the way the phone conversation went when she decided to dump it on me over the phone instead of in person like a normal human being would have done. I tried calling her back, but she didn't answer.

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How did the conversation go?

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I wish I had it recorded. I know it didn't go the way that it would have if it were an episode of 7th Heaven.

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SIX: Had I known baby murder was not only on the table but actively being pursued, I would have gone to see her personally.

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What did you think her options WERE? Wait until you cooled down/ came around? Maybe miss a deadline for a legal abortion?

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Did you read my last message? It didn't occur to me until just last night that she probably was well on her way of having the ball rolling on this thing before she called me given the fast turnaround. If the DMV were able to do anything on the level of setting up and pulling off an abortion in a single week, you'd never have a line at the DMV. Outside of dealing with this emotionally, this was the main reason I had always thought it was highly likely she just made the whole thing up.

And I did try contacting her. She's the one who ghosted me after the conversation.

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SIX: I don't know how long these things take, which is why I always suspected she was lying and testing me because of how quick it happened. But to be able to say that maybe something good comes out of rehashing this shit once again, maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt on two fronts here...
1. Maybe she wasn't lying.
2. Maybe the timetable was a lot longer than one week on her side of the equation.

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Well, I dn't know what time limits she was facing on her side of the story. There were limits back then in various states ... still are, and even stricter now ... when a woman can legally get an abortion. Like MAGONS said, some women have irregular periods, so a having one be late or even skipped might not be unusual. If she was on the pill, it screws things up, timing-wise. She might have been farther along than either of you realized. She may have been facing a deadline you don't know about.

I look at this from her POV, of course: She's pregnant. She gets a shocked and maybe angry reaction from the (potential?) father. Then, silence. The clock is ticking. What is she to do? Have a child in the HOPE that "dad" will come around?

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Shocked, yes. Freaking out... yup... probably let that out more than I could have. Not helping her current state of mind... I don't imagine I was. Angry, no.

I don't blame you for thinking that because of how I am today, but for better and for worse I was a much different person half a life ago than I am now. I was not angry.

But make no mistake. The silence in the week after was all on her part. I never knew her well enough to know for sure... but I think whatever support system she had on her side was influencing that.

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I know a woman who did that. She was a mess to begin with - bipolar (I think) and self-medicating. The dad (who worked for me for a short while) insisted on a paternity test before accepting that the child was his (Smart move, actually, she was a party-person when she was high.) The whole situation wasn't good for mom, dad, or the child since neither of the parents were really fit to be/interested in being parents.

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Yeah. We both could drink and get really high. I think the reason we were attracted to each other outside of making a pretty damn attractive couple was that we were both damaged goods. You wonder how things would have ended up if major life events didn't change everything. My guess is that we probably weren't really that good for each other. At least not at that point in our lifetimes. This whole thing possibly spared both of us from a lot of future regret.

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SIX: I have no idea what the support system was on her side or what pressures anybody else was putting on her. I'd only ever met her dad once, and never met anybody else in her family. The only friends I knew she had were people we both knew through the party scene that we met at several parties before getting together. I never really got the feeling that she had any close friends. A lot of girls I had dated prior to her had a lot of female friends who I got to know well during the dating process, but this girl never wanted to hang out with anybody else when we were together unless it was another party. As relationships go, this wasn't exactly a long one... and had what happened never have happened, she'd might not even be somebody I really remember dating in the first place all these years later.

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She sounded isolated and like there were problems in her background. I wonder whatever became of her.

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Yeah. I still do from time to time. We were very much alike in a lot of ways. I hope she's still alive and reasonably happy and comfortable. I hope she missed out on all the years of self-destruction I put myself through.

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SIX: She could have already been a month or more into the process of getting an abortion.

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She could have been two and a half-months pregnant before she even suspected she was

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Well... again... If you're a young woman who's having sex with men you don't intend on having kids with (multiple partners at one time or very close together as in her case if she thought it was "probably" mine), you should be regularly testing yourself. If that wasn't an issue in Illinois back when this happened, you can't blame her for not doing it, but if the rules are going to be changing in your state to a much shorter window, I really hope that they are telling girls to do this.

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SIX: Maybe that one call to me WAS the only time that somebody asked my opinion. Maybe she wanted me to say something that would save her from doing something she really didn't want to do and I fucked that up because I was a dumb 22 year old AND I did not know the full scope of what was already being planned behind the scenes.

Assuming the whole thing wasn't just a manipulative lie, I'm probably being unfair to her. My problem with this whole system as it is isn't really with Women themselves. It's how women are enabled and entitled to do all of this, and how unfair the burden of everything ends up being on men.

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It seems to me the burden was entirely on her.

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That's the bias of a woman who doesn't understand that men have emotions talking.

And quite frankly, I thought you were better than that Sigs.

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But in YOUR world, she's damned if she does (she's a "baby killer") or she's damned if she doesn't (trapped you in a marriage you didn't want, or become a single mom).

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I throw out both scenarios to illustrate how women have all the power and men have none.

I've watched men's lives be destroyed because of this.

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I think she did you a favor. She decided for you bc you didn't. I'm not sure how that conversation went, but it would seem likely to me that you didn't want to even deal with the pregnancy. So you kind of dumped it in her lap, by default.

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I can't really say. At 42 years old and where I'm at today, yes... I'm glad that I don't have a child. But had that child been born I doubt very much that the 42 year old version of me that exists today would even be here.

Would things be good or bad? I don't know. I can't say. There's no possible way that I could try to reconcile who I am today with who I might have been today had everything gone down different. The butterfly effect here would be too much for my brain to calculate. Man... would I love to be able to peek into the alternate timeline to see what things look like today over there.

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SIX: Everything is decidedly slanted in the woman's favor. The only way to be a free man is to not have sex with women if you're not sterilized, never get married to a woman, and don't ever move in with one where someday somebody can come after your money and belongings under some common-law loopholes.

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Well, since you didn't want to be a father then, and you don't seem to want to be one now, she did you a favor, didn't she? So why are you pissed?

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I've never said I didn't want to be a father back then. Was I scared? Yeah. I won't deny that. She was making more money than I was at the time, and what she pulled in wasn't all that much either. I have a feeling that her dad was going to be a large part of the baby's support system. He was the only person in her life that she talked positively about. And my family...? Forget about it. Nobody in my family would have done shit. I think had this happened when I had moved to Wisconsin and got that really good job that everything would be much different than it turned out.

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Again, what was she supposed to do? Carry a baby that you would have resented? And if she had, you'd be pissed off about THAT, too.

The problem is, really, women have the RESPONSIBILITY. Men often walk away. But women have nine months of pregnancy ahead, at least, and all of the health, social, career, and financial downsides that go with that. Single mothers are POOR, most of the time. So unless the father is willing to step up and be a dad, for as long as he needs to be, then the woman has to make the decision taking that into account.

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You're still missing the whole point here. Men don't get to just "walk away". That is a fallacy. Unless they're rich, they've basically ruined the next two decades of their lives through wage garnishments and will be struggling just to cover basic necessities unless they get married. (And unlike the mother's future husband who will benefit from a third source of income, the father's future spouse has to live with a man only making 2/3rds of what he should be making, and she will probably end up having to pick up that slack). They won't even get the EIC bonus for a child since the mom will be taking that for herself and the child support does not count against the earned income. And unless the father's got deep pockets and a good lawyer, the mother doesn't even have to give any access to the child to the father unless that is set in stone through costly legal battles. My friend didn't get to see his son until he was 5 years old. Once she realized he wasn't going to marry her, she found some other guy to marry and they moved 3 hours away and would not allow him to see his kid, even though they both had dual incomes now and were still happy to take whatever money they could from him.

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SIX: My non-home-improvement expenses so far this year haven't even hit $3,000. That's everything including insurance and half of my yearly property taxes. One of my married with children buddies needs to make twice that much in a month just to cover the basic bills. And he's not even the one who's been paying child support and college fees out his ass for the last 20 years.

Gross.

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So you think a man should be able to father a child but not be responsible for it?

Hmmm....

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I hesitate to outright say yes here. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to any of this.

But the system as it is right now is not even remotely fair to men.

It's not fair to the child either. Just like the woman you knew, in no alternate universe would it have been in my brother's or my best interest to give full custody of us to my Bi-Polar mom, but that's exactly what happened. My old man had to spend a ton of money on top of a ridiculous amount of child support just to get every other weekend and was told by his lawyers that they could go after full custody but it could take 5 to 10 years of dragging us through the court system and bankrupt him, and they couldn't even tell him that his chances of getting us after all of that would be a coin flip.

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I think we can agree on one thing: if the responsibility falls on the woman all of the time, then the authority to decide belongs to her, too. Men only get to have say IF they're legally chained to the child's welfare until their child reaches majority. It would be better if they were able to help with the upbringing too, because children raised by BOTH parents are better adjusted and more likely to be successful in life.

But if the decision rests 100pct with women, then men are legally free from responsibility. And if a man decides he doesn't want children, then HE better take measures to keep that from happening.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
One week???

SIX: Yeah. One week. I'm sure I've had to have mentioned that one of the times this issue has come up before. What's this... like the 4th time now?

SIGNY: I've only heard the end part of the story: how you hate the slut who murdered your baby and how women have all the power.

SIX: You only LISTENED to that part of the story before. I've told it every time. There's no reason to have not done so. I'm assuming the rest of it got through to you now because KIKI isn't here.

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SIGNY: I was under the impression that you didn't even know there was a pregnancy until afterwards.

SIX: What? No. My whole problem was that she called me up to tell me that she was pregnant and thought it was mine. Then I finally get a call from her a week later and she said "You know that problem I was talking about before? I took care of it."

SIGNY; THOUGHT it was yours? She wasn't sure? She was having sex with other men at the time? Seems a bit more complicated than I thought.

SIX: Isn't "love" always?

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SIGNY: So, what happened in that week? Did you talk to your then g/f? Say anything about getting tested or ask how far along she was or... anything?

SIX: We didn't talk at all. I don't think she liked the way the phone conversation went when she decided to dump it on me over the phone instead of in person like a

SIGNY: How did the conversation go?

SIX: I wish I had it recorded. I know it didn't go the way that it would have if it were an episode of 7th Heaven.

SIX: Had I known baby murder was not only on the table but actively being pursued, I would have gone to see her personally.

SIGNY: What did you think her options WERE? Wait until you cooled down/ came around? Maybe miss a deadline for a legal abortion?

SIX: Did you read my last message? It didn't occur to me until just last night that she probably was well on her way of having the ball rolling on this thing before she called me given the fast turnaround. If the DMV were able to do anything on the level of setting up and pulling off an abortion in a single week, you'd never have a line at the DMV. Outside of dealing with this emotionally, this was the main reason I had always thought it was highly likely she just made the whole thing up.

And I did try contacting her. She's the one who ghosted me after the conversation.

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SIX: I don't know how long these things take, which is why I always suspected she was lying and testing me because of how quick it happened. But to be able to say that maybe something good comes out of rehashing this shit once again, maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt on two fronts here...
1. Maybe she wasn't lying.
2. Maybe the timetable was a lot longer than one week on her side of the equation.

SIGNY: Well, I don't know what time limits she was facing on her side of the story. There were limits back then in various states ... still are, and even stricter now ... when a woman can legally get an abortion. Like MAGONS said, some women have irregular periods, so a having one be late or even skipped might not be unusual. If she was on the pill, it screws things up, timing-wise. She might have been farther along than either of you realized. She may have been facing a deadline you don't know about.

I look at this from her POV, of course: She's pregnant. She gets a shocked and maybe angry reaction from the (potential?) father. Then, silence. The clock is ticking. What is she to do? Have a child in the HOPE that "dad" will come around?

SIX: Shocked, yes. Freaking out... yup... probably let that out more than I could have. Not helping her current state of mind... I don't imagine I was. Angry, no.

I don't blame you for thinking that because of how I am today, but for better and for worse I was a much different person half a life ago than I am now. I was not angry.
But make no mistake. The silence in the week after was all on her part. I never knew her well enough to know for sure... but I think whatever support system she had on her side was influencing that.

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SIGNY: I know a woman who did that. She was a mess to begin with - bipolar (I think) and self-medicating. The dad (who worked for me for a short while) insisted on a paternity test before accepting that the child was his (Smart move, actually, she was a party-person when she was high.) The whole situation wasn't good for mom, dad, or the child since neither of the parents were really fit to be/interested in being parents.

SIX: Yeah. We both could drink and get really high. I think the reason we were attracted to each other outside of making a pretty damn attractive couple was that we were both damaged goods. You wonder how things would have ended up if major life events didn't change everything. My guess is that we probably weren't really that good for each other. At least not at that point in our lifetimes. This whole thing possibly spared both of us from a lot of future regret.

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SIX: I have no idea what the support system was on her side or what pressures anybody else was putting on her. I'd only ever met her dad once, and never met anybody else in her family. The only friends I knew she had were people we both knew through the party scene that we met at several parties before getting together. I never really got the feeling that she had any close friends. A lot of girls I had dated prior to her had a lot of female friends who I got to know well during the dating process, but this girl never wanted to hang out with anybody else when we were together unless it was another party. As relationships go, this wasn't exactly a long one... and had what happened never have happened, she'd might not even be somebody I really remember dating in the first place all these years later.

SIGNY She sounded isolated and like there were problems in her background. I wonder whatever became of her.

SIX: Yeah. I still do from time to time. We were very much alike in a lot of ways. I hope she's still alive and reasonably happy and comfortable. I hope she missed out on all the years of self-destruction I put myself through.

SIX: She could have already been a month or more into the process of getting an abortion.

SIGNY: She could have been two and a half-months pregnant before she even suspected she was

SIX: Well... again... If you're a young woman who's having sex with men you don't intend on having kids with (multiple partners at one time or very close together as in her case if she thought it was "probably" mine), you should be regularly testing yourself. If that wasn't an issue in Illinois back when this happened, you can't blame her for not doing it, but if the rules are going to be changing in your state to a much shorter window, I really hope that they are telling girls to do this.

SIX: Maybe that one call to me WAS the only time that somebody asked my opinion. Maybe she wanted me to say something that would save her from doing something she really didn't want to do and I fucked that up because I was a dumb 22 year old AND I did not know the full scope of what was already being planned behind the scenes.

Assuming the whole thing wasn't just a manipulative lie, I'm probably being unfair to her. My problem with this whole system as it is isn't really with Women themselves. It's how women are enabled and entitled to do all of this, and how unfair the burden of everything ends up being on men.

SIGNY: It seems to me the burden was entirely on her.

SIX: That's the bias of a woman who doesn't understand that men have emotions talking.
And quite frankly, I thought you were better than that Sigs.

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SIGNY: But in YOUR world, she's damned if she does (she's a "baby killer") or she's damned if she doesn't (trapped you in a marriage you didn't want, or become a single mom).

SIX: I throw out both scenarios to illustrate how women have all the power and men have none.

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SIX: I've watched men's lives be destroyed because of this.

SIGNY: I think she did you a favor. She decided for you bc you didn't. I'm not sure how that conversation went, but it would seem likely to me that you didn't want to even deal with the pregnancy. So you kind of dumped it in her lap, by default.

SIX: I can't really say. At 42 years old and where I'm at today, yes... I'm glad that I don't have a child. But had that child been born I doubt very much that the 42 year old version of me that exists today would even be here.

Would things be good or bad? I don't know. I can't say. There's no possible way that I could try to reconcile who I am today with who I might have been today had everything gone down different. The butterfly effect here would be too much for my brain to calculate. Man... would I love to be able to peek into the alternate timeline to see what things look like today over there.

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SIX: Everything is decidedly slanted in the woman's favor. The only way to be a free man is to not have sex with women if you're not sterilized, never get married to a woman, and don't ever move in with one where someday somebody can come after your money and belongings under some common-law loopholes.

SIGNY: Well, since you didn't want to be a father then, and you don't seem to want to be one now, she did you a favor, didn't she? So why are you pissed?

SIX: I've never said I didn't want to be a father back then. Was I scared? Yeah. I won't deny that. She was making more money than I was at the time, and what she pulled in wasn't all that much either. I have a feeling that her dad was going to be a large part of the baby's support system. He was the only person in her life that she talked positively about. And my family...? Forget about it. Nobody in my family would have done shit. I think had this happened when I had moved to Wisconsin and got that really good job that everything would be much different than it turned out.

SIGNY: Again, what was she supposed to do? Carry a baby that you would have resented? And if she had, you'd be pissed off about THAT, too.
The problem is, really, women have the RESPONSIBILITY. Men often walk away. But women have nine months of pregnancy ahead, at least, and all of the health, social, career, and financial downsides that go with that. Single mothers are POOR, most of the time. So unless the father is willing to step up and be a dad, for as long as he needs to be, then the woman has to make the decision taking that into account.

SIX: You're still missing the whole point here. Men don't get to just "walk away".

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SIX: That is a fallacy. Unless they're rich, they've basically ruined the next two decades of their lives through wage garnishments and will be struggling just to cover basic necessities unless they get married. (And unlike the mother's future husband who will benefit from a third source of income, the father's future spouse has to live with a man only making 2/3rds of what he should be making, and she will probably end up having to pick up that slack). They won't even get the EIC bonus for a child since the mom will be taking that for herself and the child support does not count against the earned income. And unless the father's got deep pockets and a good lawyer, the mother doesn't even have to give any access to the child to the father unless that is set in stone through costly legal battles. My friend didn't get to see his son until he was 5 years old. Once she realized he wasn't going to marry her, she found some other guy to marry and they moved 3 hours away and would not allow him to see his kid, even though they both had dual incomes now and were still happy to take whatever money they could from him.

SIX: My non-home-improvement expenses so far this year haven't even hit $3,000. That's everything including insurance and half of my yearly property taxes. One of my married with children buddies needs to make twice that much in a month just to cover the basic bills. And he's not even the one who's been paying child support and college fees out his ass for the last 20 years.

Gross.

SIGNY: So you think a man should be able to father a child but not be responsible for it?
Hmmm....

I hesitate to outright say yes here. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to any of this.

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SIX; But the system as it is right now is not even remotely fair to men.

It's not fair to the child either. Just like the woman you knew, in no alternate universe would it have been in my brother's or my best interest to give full custody of us to my Bi-Polar mom, but that's exactly what happened. My old man had to spend a ton of money on top of a ridiculous amount of child support just to get every other weekend and was told by his lawyers that they could go after full custody but it could take 5 to 10 years of dragging us through the court system and bankrupt him, and they couldn't even tell him that his chances of getting us after all of that would be a coin flip.

SIGNY: I think we can agree on one thing: if the responsibility falls on the woman all of the time, then the authority to decide belongs to her, too. Men only get to have say IF they're legally chained to the child's welfare until their child reaches majority. It would be better if they were able to help with the upbringing too, because children raised by BOTH parents are better adjusted and more likely to be successful in life.
But if the decision rests 100pct with women, then men are legally free from responsibility. And if a man decides he doesn't want children, then HE better take measures to keep that from happening.

SIX: I agree with this.

No one side should have all the power.

The rules need to be made fair for everyone, and everyone needs to know what they are before they play the game.

And I mean REALLY know. Like, there should be a class in high school that teaches whatever legal nuances they can manage to cram in those kid's heads so they start their adult life knowing EXACTLY what the risks to them are vs. the rewards of temporary pleasure, and protect themselves accordingly.

In my opinion, this would be the most important class that a kid will ever take in public school, should it be made available to them.

Because otherwise they're just floundering around in a sea of hormones without a compass and they're going to sink.

Half of the retards out there can't even navigate the terms of a cell phone contract. How can they be expected to make any good decisions about something this big if nobody ever teaches them anything about it?

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Keep telling yourself that Jack. Still hating on someone that 'did you wrong' 20+ years ago.

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Still hating on somebody who murdered a baby 20 years ago.

You, on the other hand, are just as insignifigant to me today as you were before I had the pleasure of meeting you. There is nothing that you could possibly ever do or say to change that fact.

And mama, I know it's tearing you up inside.

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Meanwhile, is Texas truly the most backward place on Earth (although I hear Houston is quite okay)

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What are you asking me about Texas for?

The only things they got in Texas are steers and queers. And Second ain't got no horns.

Go ask Second.

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Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Keep telling yourself that Jack. Still hating on someone that 'did you wrong' 20+ years ago.

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Still hating on somebody who murdered a baby 20 years ago.

You, on the other hand, are just as insignifigant to me today as you were before I had the pleasure of meeting you. There is nothing that you could possibly ever do or say to change that fact.

And mama, I know it's tearing you up inside.

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Meanwhile, is Texas truly the most backward place on Earth (although I hear Houston is quite okay)

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What are you asking me about Texas for?

The only things they got in Texas are steers and queers. And Second ain't got no horns.

Go ask Second.

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Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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Your ceaseless whining is why I stopped coming here and I bet the same as 90% of posters who used to post. Your opinions are moronic - you’ve the brains of a newt. Once again - not breeding was the best decision you made - you deserve a Darwin Award.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Of course there is room for grieving if the child you thought you might have doesn’t eventuate - been there plenty of times- but boy does 6 hold a grudge.

Personally a good thing that they didn’t have to co parent or 6 pay any child support. It would have been a world of pain - very few people do it well and 6 - well he is a true misogynist so it would have been bad all round. An unwanted child, a financial burden and bitter resentment- hell it’s his MOD all over.

I don’t wonder at the number of abortions - I wonder that people don’t do it more frankly -

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
One week???

SIX: Yeah. One week. I'm sure I've had to have mentioned that one of the times this issue has come up before. What's this... like the 4th time now?

SIGNY: I've only heard the end part of the story: how you hate the slut who murdered your baby and how women have all the power.

SIX: You only LISTENED to that part of the story before. I've told it every time. There's no reason to have not done so. I'm assuming the rest of it got through to you now because KIKI isn't here.

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Er, no. I don't read everyone's posts every day. There are a lot of things about you I'm sure you posted that I don't know. I don't know anything about you in school, for example, or soon after you graduated.

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