REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What next..Bush to blame for S.E. Asian quake/Tsunami ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, March 11, 2005 06:01
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6446
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Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Not to make light of a major disaster and the high number of lives lost, but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him.

I hope folks will be reminded that mankind isn't all that we're cracked up to be, when it comes to knowing who's in charge of this rock that spins around the closest star.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:32 AM

CREVANREAVER


At this point, it actually wouldn't surprise me. The crazy environmentalist wackos like to fly out the nuttiest of conspiracies.

Michael Moore will maybe come out with Fahrenheit Tsunami.

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Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:16 AM

DARKJESTER


Of course it was Bush! That new heavy lifting Atlas rocket not reaching its' desired altitude was just a smokescreen for the launch of a new Seismic Monitoring And Controlled Amplification Satellite Sysytem (SMAC-ASS)!!!

On second thought, I'm not sure even PurpleBelly would believe that....




MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Sunday, December 26, 2004 8:52 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Well, now. It looks as though some on the right has sought out some pre-emptive complaining.



----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, December 27, 2004 12:57 AM

FARSCAPEPKWARS


WHAT ??

Would you people show some respect, thousands of homes have been destroyed, hundreds of billions in damage, and thousands of people may have lost their lives ( maybe twice as much as the WTC attacks ).

If you want to continue you Bush-ranting or GW Worshipin' threads, then fine

but show a little respect for those who have died

May they rest in peace

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Monday, December 27, 2004 8:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
WHAT ??

Would you people show some respect, thousands of homes have been destroyed, hundreds of billions in damage, and thousands of people may have lost their lives ( maybe twice as much as the WTC attacks ).

If you want to continue you Bush-ranting or GW Worshipin' threads, then fine

but show a little respect for those who have died

May they rest in peace



As Sgt Hulka once said.... " Lighten up, Francis."

No disrespect was meant in the least. It is indeed a terrible natural disaster, and our thoughts as well as what ever aid we can offer undeniably need to be with those who have suffered such a great loss.

You'll note, however, that this was a NATURAL DISASTER. I find it ironic that you speak of repsect for the dead, but then compare a deliberate ,premeditated attack on innocent life by fellow humans to a completely amoral act of nature. Neither victims 'deserved' what happened to them , but at least there was no malace or evil involved w/ the earthquake.

Finally, I was being a bit tongue in cheek w/ this post, being a bit absurd for the sake of showing absurdity. I was only trying to mimic some of the outlandish claims that have been directed toward Bush, the USA, ...ANYTHING that they don't like and would try take advantage of such a horrific event.

The intent was not to mock the loss of life or make light of the tragedy. If it was taken in that manner, I apologize for the appearence of such.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, December 27, 2004 10:30 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
WHAT ??

Would you people show some respect, thousands of homes have been destroyed, hundreds of billions in damage, and thousands of people may have lost their lives ( maybe twice as much as the WTC attacks ).

If you want to continue you Bush-ranting or GW Worshipin' threads, then fine

but show a little respect for those who have died

May they rest in peace



AURaptor and I haven't exactly seen eye to eye on some issues. But I must, in his defense quote from the first post in this thread (his),

"Not to make light of a major disaster and the high number of lives lost,..."

Clearly this wasn't meant to minimize the disaster, but more of a social commentary of at least those radical left people that don't think before they speak (although there are probably equal number of these people on both sides).

So, please stop your knee-jerk reactions.


I have heard that the US has sent aid and is sending more. Good for them. And I hope that my country can do what it can, as well as all others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4126971.stm
Currently, the dead total approx. 23000 and I hope that that doesn't grow too much more. But as you can see, it's already far greater than just twice your WTC attack.

And as AURaptor said, please don't compare apples and oranges. There is a difference between act of man and act of nature.


But, when it comes down to it, this thread is at most in poor taste, not disrespectful. There is a difference you know.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, December 27, 2004 7:33 PM

DANFAN


I can't speak for Auraptor... but, I didn't read Auraptor's comment as belittling the plight of those poor folks caught in that tragedy. It seemed to me that his post (and the sarcasm in it) stems from other posts in this neighborhood regarding conservative misbehavior that have a surreal, "fringe-like" quality.

The most recent example that caught my eye was blaming "neo-con nazis" for the cancellation of Firefly. As if basement ratings for a show badly handled by cretins at the network wouldn't have been enough without a special meeting of Bush's cabinet to engineer its demise.

Personally, I feel Bush has enough to answer for in the real world. Some of the more bizarre claims weaken the focus.

That said, the very real tragedy in Indonesia and surrounding areas surpasses human imagination. I think the only people who can truly grasp it are the poor folk who have to live it right now.

My heart goes out to them.

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Monday, December 27, 2004 8:27 PM

NEUTRINOLAD


Ah, the Strawman, primary tactic of the lazy American political classes.

Nice one, AURaptor, really. What better possible distraction, when we should be discussing the totally immoral and utterly corrupt debacle that is this Bush adminstration's war on Iraq.

Fortunately for Karl Rove, the public has the attention span of a gnat and the memory of an Etch-A-Sketch in a paint shaker.

I am disappointed that W couldn't talk to his good personal friend, God, and have Him reverse the damage to the innocent. But I guess it's not that kind of friendship.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:34 PM

NERVOUSPETE


I've edited this post of a sudden because I have re-read it, and previous posts, and realised it was largely knee-jerk guff.

My apologies to Auraraptor if he read it before I had chance to edit.

However, I still share some of the thoughts of my post. Let's not make this into a 'Bet those liberals try to pin the blame on Bush! Hah!' thread, as that would be insensitive, crass and be sadly stereotyping the political opposition to Bush.

Nor let it be a thread going... "I bet the Republicans try to make out that the liberals try to make out that this Bush's fault, like the evil folk they are! Hah!" For that is equally cretinous.

For all my dislike of the Bush administration on both Iraq, social policy and the enviroment, I have every confidence in their capacity and genorosity in disaster relief - which I note is being demonstrated amply.

I get what Auraraptor was trying to say, and there has been a whole bunch of odd allegations thrown at him in the past (defeating the very opposition they seek to champion with their bizarre claims) but I'm just worried that this will turn into another liberals-suck, neo-cons rock/vice-versa thread like all the others. Which would be deeply annoying, and trivalising of something horrible.

Anyway, I've set up another thread on the disaster. Any thoughts or prayers, feel free to pop onto it.

Pete

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:13 AM

NEUTRINOLAD


Quote:

Let's not make this into a 'Bet those liberals try to pin the blame on Bush! Hah!' thread


That's some real pretty words, NervousPete, but the thread is titled What next..Bush to blame for S.E. Asian quake/Tsunami ?

Man shoves me, I shove him back.
Now why should I give the neocons a free pass? Isn't that the press's job?

And wasn't the paint-shaker thing funny? Little bit?

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:45 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:

And wasn't the paint-shaker thing funny? Little bit?



I know I laughted (because it's true).

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"the public has the attention span of a gnat and the memory of an Etch-A-Sketch in a paint shaker"

I put this is my list of great quotes. E-mailed it too with url so people could see the whole thing. THANKS. I'm still chuckling.

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:43 PM

NEUTRINOLAD


Rue, great?
*poke*
Maybe just good.
*stab*
Well, it's alright.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 6:03 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not to make light of a major disaster and the high number of lives lost, but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him.

I hope folks will be reminded that mankind isn't all that we're cracked up to be, when it comes to knowing who's in charge of this rock that spins around the closest star.



Actually I was wondering when the big lightbulb was going to flicker to life over Dubya's head and he was going to blame it all on Al Quaida.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 10:57 AM

CONSCIENCE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
...blame it all on Al Quaida.



It's spelled "Al Qaeda", dummy!


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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Conscience:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
...blame it all on Al Quaida.



It's spelled "Al Qaeda", dummy!




Careful everyone...the Spelling Nazis are out in force!



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:30 PM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by Conscience:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
...blame it all on Al Quaida.



It's spelled "Al Qaeda", dummy!




Dear Asshat,
Please educate yourself before you go pointing fingers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaida

Check the notes on naming section. My spelling is correct.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
Quote:

Let's not make this into a 'Bet those liberals try to pin the blame on Bush! Hah!' thread


That's some real pretty words, NervousPete, but the thread is titled What next..Bush to blame for S.E. Asian quake/Tsunami ?

Man shoves me, I shove him back.
Now why should I give the neocons a free pass? Isn't that the press's job?



2 quick things. One - How do you figrue I shoved ...anyone? This could only apply if indeed you fall into the catagory of extreme far left zealots who want to blame Bush for everything wrong that goes on in the world. I see you took the time to post the title of this thread, but did you even READ IT ? Clearly I presented it as a joke, as if to say .. " You'd have to be brain dead to actually blame this on Bush " It wasn't meant to apply to ANYONE.. (*note* I didn't even comment in the orignal post about Left/Right. ) But even the mouth breathers on the Left make more sense than that, right ?? But perhaps I spoke too soon. So, if the shoe fits....

Two - I am really preplexed at the comment about the press giving the [ conservatives ] a free pass at anything. The Press is undeniably Left wing. If they can't even make up anything to bash Bush about ( See Dan Rather ), then you KNOW there's nothing there.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not to make light of a major disaster and the high number of lives lost, but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him.

I hope folks will be reminded that mankind isn't all that we're cracked up to be, when it comes to knowing who's in charge of this rock that spins around the closest star.



Actually I was wondering when the big lightbulb was going to flicker to life over Dubya's head and he was going to blame it all on Al Quaida.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.



I'm stuggling to find a reason as to why you took the time to post this. It would suggest that W has a history of making such claims, placing blame on a.Q. where it clearly does not apply.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 31, 2004 3:07 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him


Yeah, well, the sad part is, so many of the absurd things said about Bush are true. He's his own best lampoon.

IMHO

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 3:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him


Yeah, well, the sad part is, so many of the absurd things said about Bush are true. He's his own best lampoon.

IMHO



Care to site some examples?

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 10:32 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:


Originally posted by Hardware:

Quote:


Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not to make light of a major disaster and the high number of lives lost, but I've seen so many absurd things said about President Bush, I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him.

I hope folks will be reminded that mankind isn't all that we're cracked up to be, when it comes to knowing who's in charge of this rock that spins around the closest star.




Actually I was wondering when the big lightbulb was going to flicker to life over Dubya's head and he was going to blame it all on Al Quaida.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.




I'm stuggling to find a reason as to why you took the time to post this. It would suggest that W has a history of making such claims, placing blame on a.Q. where it clearly does not apply.



Don't struggle too hard, you'll strain your brain.

Complaining about characterizing Dubya as placing inappropriate blame on A.Q. is the moral equivalent of complaining about appropriate blame being place on Dubya.

Answer the serious complaints soberly and seriously or as neocons are fond of telling everyone else post election, shut up.

Whining because Dubya is attracting criticisms for failed leadership is just pathetic.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Sunday, January 2, 2005 6:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Hardware

I made the simple request that you present some examples, and you balked. That right there speaks volumes.

Quote:

Whining because Dubya is attracting criticisms for failed leadership is just pathetic.
Sorry, but I've yet to see where W has 'failed ' when it comes to leadership. I don't agree w/ him on every issue, but for his over all performance, and in light of there being no better alternative, President Bush is far from being a failure in the leadership dept.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, January 2, 2005 6:37 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hardware

I made the simple request that you present some examples, and you balked. That right there speaks volumes.




We've got to invade Iraq because Al Quaida is working in cooperation with Saddamn Hussein. Iraq is supporting Al Quaida.

Doesn't this sound familiar? That's what Dubya's administration harped about in an attempt to drum up grass roots support for the invasion.

And I suppose you've completely slept through 3 years of fear mongering by the white house? Get a clue. If you let terrorists or those who profit from terrorists actions hound you into being afraid then the terrorists have already won. Not one of the alert elevations have borne one scrap of evidence of an action by AQ.

Now, please explain why you had to whine about Dubya getting flack for 4 years of bumbling and do-nothing leadership? As far as I can see all he's accomplished is getting thousands of Americans killed or disabled and sunk us so deep into debt that your grandchildren will be paying off debts incurred during Dubya's time.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, January 3, 2005 10:42 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Two - I am really preplexed at the comment about the press giving the [ conservatives ] a free pass at anything. The Press is undeniably Left wing. If they can't even make up anything to bash Bush about ( See Dan Rather ), then you KNOW there's nothing there.



I always laugh at comments like this. So, here's a viewpoint from outside your war mongering nation.

The left says that the media is right and the right says the media is left. How can this be?

Well, from observation living in your "great" country as well as living outside again (thank the gods), I've noticed that, if what the media says is even slightly left of the right, that's it, they're left wing nuts, etc, etc, etc. Similarly for the left.

The funny thing is that it is clear from anyone that has any distance from this, that the media is very right. In fact, your country, in general is very right.


Example: Canada will decriminalize pot in the future. We are now arguing over the details. So how does this have anything to do with the discussion at hand?

First off, you guys are freaking out over this from left to right, with pretty much no exceptions.

Secondly, I was watching our equivalent to CPAN, when people in the House of Commons were commenting on the bill.

Members from the Bloc, Liberals and NDP were all in favour of this bill. The Conservatives, our right - now even more extreme - only complaint about the bill was the amount of pot that would be legal to carry.

The bill called for about 30 grams to be legal whereas this man said it should only be 5 grams as no-one would need more than that for personal consumption.

So, even our extreme right is more left than your left. I find that funny and my point is proven.


You guys should really look more to the middle more often. It'll be better for domestic as well as forgien issues in the short and long term.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, January 7, 2005 4:15 PM

NEUTRINOLAD


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

...How do you figrue I shoved ...anyone? ... Clearly I presented it as a joke, as if to say .. " You'd have to be brain dead to actually blame this on Bush " It wasn't meant to apply to ANYONE.. (*note* I didn't even comment in the orignal post about Left/Right. ) But even the mouth breathers on the Left make more sense than that, right ?? But perhaps I spoke too soon. So, if the shoe fits....

Two - I am really preplexed at the comment about the press giving the [ conservatives ] a free pass at anything. The Press is undeniably Left wing. If they can't even make up anything to bash Bush about ( See Dan Rather ), then you KNOW there's nothing there.



You deserve a response, so here it is.
It looks to me like you innocently used one of the oldest debates tricks without realizing it, that of the strawman.
The reason this tactic is considered disreputable is because it takes advantage of the less thoughtful listeners' tendency to generalize.
For example, "Why, if Dan Rather got it wrong once, any and all of the evidence of favoritism, malfeasance, the abuse of privilege and suspect behavior by W must be false."
Can you detect the logical fallacy in this statement?
When somebody tries to trick me or my fellows with such tactics, I consider it an offense, a metaphorical "shove" in the political arena. And protestations of, "It's all in fun," are a frequent addendum by those who use the strawman and are called on it.

Now, it looks to me like you did not intend the thread title or your comments as such a tactic. But, as it so perfectly fits the mold, you need to understand that is how it is going to be perceived.

Second, it is my perception that the press gives those in power a free pass, the exceptions being remarkable to say the least. Whether this is due to sycophancy or incompetence, I neither know nor care. They may be doing their job, but they sure aren't doing it well. The belief that the press is a left/right wing mouthpiece is a demonstration that most folks do not have the training for objective analysis.

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Friday, January 7, 2005 4:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Speaking of whacko-jobs I think Cravenreaver went off the deepend.

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 10:42 AM

JADEHAND


Sorry for the late response here. I just wanted to point out in defense of AURaptor, that no specific acusations were made.
quote
Quote:

...I was wondering if there were folks out in the world who really would try to lay the blame for this event on him.



Not when will the lefties say "Blah!" or anyone else specifically.
But to answer his question, Yeah I heard that the Terrorists websites have accused the US of detonating a nuclear device under the ocean at the fault in order to cause the Tsunami.
unfortunately I have not confirmed this due to lack of access to the terrorists network, which I guess is fortunate.

"It's not all about you."

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 11:28 PM

NEUTRINOLAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Jadehand:
I heard that the Terrorists websites have accused the US of detonating a nuclear device under the ocean at the fault in order to cause the Tsunami.



I heard a caller say this on a radio show, so I don't knowthe source but it certainly is makingthe rounds.
. Which just goes to show that there's no statement so insanely absurd that it won't find a receptive audience eventually.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:50 AM

MRSKBORG


Quote:

Yeah I heard that the Terrorists websites have accused the US of detonating a nuclear device under the ocean at the fault in order to cause the Tsunami.


Or how about this one

Quote:

We know that at these resorts which unfortunately exist in Islamic and other countries in South Asia, especially at Christmas, fornication and sexual perversion of all kinds are rampant. The fact that it happened at this particular time is a sign from Allah. It happened at Christmas when the fornicators and corrupt people from all over the world come to comit fornication and sexual oerversion
Fawzan al-Fawzan, professor at al-Imam University, Saudi Arabia, al-Majid tv 31st December, 2004.

Or the chap from Aceh, Maulana Yusuf who says the tsunami was caused by a group of off duty policemen. I kid you not. Apparently they were enjoying themselves on a beach near Banda Aceh. They were drinking alcohol. There were girls with them. This "orgy" attracted the attention of local people who chastised them for their "moral laxity". They ignored the warning, yelled at the locals and waved their guns. The next day after the party the disaster happened. Apparently.


"This movie may be a beautiful butterfly, but I loved that damn caterpillar." Joss Whedon.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:16 PM

BADGERSHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by FarscapePKWars:
WHAT ??

Would you people show some respect, thousands of homes have been destroyed, hundreds of billions in damage, and thousands of people may have lost their lives ( maybe twice as much as the WTC attacks ).

If you want to continue you Bush-ranting or GW Worshipin' threads, then fine

but show a little respect for those who have died

May they rest in peace



Not to be morbid, but the number of lives lost inthe tsunami is probably more like 100+ times that of the WTC attacks.

The difference, of course, is that the tsunami is a "natural disaster" and WTC was a "man-made disaster."

Why not just call them "disasters"??? But I digress...

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:19 PM

BADGERSHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jadehand:
I heard that the Terrorists websites have accused the US of detonating a nuclear device under the ocean at the fault in order to cause the Tsunami.



I heard a caller say this on a radio show, so I don't knowthe source but it certainly is makingthe rounds.
. Which just goes to show that there's no statement so insanely absurd that it won't find a receptive audience eventually.



Any nuclear device capable of producing that magnitude of an earthquake would never be tested under water, and would certainly not be without SERIOUS radiation fallout. We'd be seeing geiger counters off the scale thousands of miles away. Not to mention the amount of ocean and oceanlife that would have been vaporized, and would lower the sea-levels enough to be visible to the naked eye.

Some folks is dumb...

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:25 PM

NEUTRINOLAD


Quote:

Originally posted by BadgersHat:

Some folks is dumb...

--Jefé The Hat




Boy howdy.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 12:20 PM

LIPFERRET


Quote:

Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
At this point, it actually wouldn't surprise me. The crazy environmentalist wackos like to fly out the nuttiest of conspiracies.

Michael Moore will maybe come out with Fahrenheit Tsunami.




Oh my gosh, that is good. actually I thought the same thing.

I want Jane on the Red Wings, hed kick butt.

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Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:02 PM

JOSSISAGOD


I don't want to debate anything, but the actual spelling is Al-Qaeda if you don't believe me Hardware look at your own link. for all who may become angry at this post it wasn't meant to cause anger but rather to gather all the facts. it also doesn't mean that I sympathize with Bin-Laden (because I DON'T)I'm just gathering facts(you know facts, the reason Sen. Kerry was accused of flip-flopping). Also, natural cause was to blame for the quake/tsunami, no one will debate that! (I hope!)

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Friday, February 25, 2005 5:35 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hardware

I made the simple request that you present some examples, and you balked. That right there speaks volumes.




We've got to invade Iraq because Al Quaida is working in cooperation with Saddamn Hussein. Iraq is supporting Al Quaida.

Doesn't this sound familiar? That's what Dubya's administration harped about in an attempt to drum up grass roots support for the invasion.




Huh? OBL + Iraq was NEVER the reason for invading Iraq. You ask if it sounded familiar, and I reply - Nope. Never heard it, sorry. How soon do you forget the Gulf War, the agreements Iraq broke, the 17 U.N. Resolutions brought up, the 10+ yrs of 'Second chances' that Saddam got , only to fall back on his word.....

It's clear you hate Bush, but so what ? Can't you at least be intellectually honest when discusssing the issues.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, February 25, 2005 12:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

OBL + Iraq was NEVER the reason for invading Iraq. You ask if it sounded familiar, and I reply - Nope. Never heard it, sorry.

Your master wnats that little point erased and you goose-step right in line. Wow. Amnesia on command. What a feat.

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Friday, February 25, 2005 1:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

OBL + Iraq was NEVER the reason for invading Iraq. You ask if it sounded familiar, and I reply - Nope. Never heard it, sorry.

Your master wnats that little point erased and you goose-step right in line. Wow. Amnesia on command. What a feat.



Heh heh. Your inability to prove your position really does speak volumes. Name calliing is about all you have left, huh? I don't know, but perhaps Geo political issues are a bit too complex for you. Sure seems like it.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, February 25, 2005 6:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I just HAD to highlight your statement for everyone's consideration.

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs_108_2/pdfs_inves/pdf_admin_iraq_o
n_the_record_rep.pdf

And for your perusal, a lengthy report on the misleading statements in the public record made by the Bush admin about Iraq. Below is a brief exerpt:

"They (President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld, Secretary Powell, and National Security Advisor Rice) made 61 misleading statements about the strength of the Iraq-al Qaeda alliance in 52 public appearances.
For example:
• In a November 7, 2002, speech, President Bush stated: Saddam Hussein is “a threat because he is dealing with Al Qaida. . . . [A] true threat facing our country is that an Al Qaida-type network trained and armed by Saddam could attack America and not leave one fingerprint.”
In his January 28, 2003, State of the Union address, President Bush stated: “Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.”"

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Friday, February 25, 2005 7:46 PM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by jossisagod:
I don't want to debate anything, but the actual spelling is Al-Qaeda if you don't believe me Hardware look at your own link. for all who may become angry at this post it wasn't meant to cause anger but rather to gather all the facts. it also doesn't mean that I sympathize with Bin-Laden (because I DON'T)I'm just gathering facts(you know facts, the reason Sen. Kerry was accused of flip-flopping). Also, natural cause was to blame for the quake/tsunami, no one will debate that! (I hope!)



Actually I did look at my link. I never accused anyone else of spelling the name incorrectly. I merely stated that my spelling is also correct. Having more than one correct answer is a possibility if you don't live in a black and white world.



The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, February 25, 2005 11:08 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Wow. Amnesia on command. What a feat.



LOL, that's beautiful!!!

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, February 27, 2005 5:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I just HAD to highlight your statement for everyone's consideration.

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs_108_2/pdfs_inves/pdf_admin_iraq_o
n_the_record_rep.pdf

And for your perusal, a lengthy report on the misleading statements in the public record made by the Bush admin about Iraq. Below is a brief exerpt:

"They (President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld, Secretary Powell, and National Security Advisor Rice) made 61 misleading statements about the strength of the Iraq-al Qaeda alliance in 52 public appearances.
For example:
• In a November 7, 2002, speech, President Bush stated: Saddam Hussein is “a threat because he is dealing with Al Qaida. . . . [A] true threat facing our country is that an Al Qaida-type network trained and armed by Saddam could attack America and not leave one fingerprint.”
In his January 28, 2003, State of the Union address, President Bush stated: “Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.”"



Bush was right about all that, and there's nothing in the least 'misleading' in those statements. Still, the al Qaeda / Saddam link was never the primary reason for attacking Iraq. Your amnesia on demand seems to have blocked out multiple U.N. Resolutions and a 15-0 Security Council vote. Nary a word about al Qaeda in them either. Hmmm. I fail to see your motivation for posting any of this.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, February 27, 2005 4:35 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@rue:
I think we should include delusional as well, eh?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, February 27, 2005 6:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@rue:
I think we should include delusional as well, eh?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show



No reply, other than ad hominems? Classic.

Still, wanting to ignore all those pesky U.N. resolutions and such might be called........

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, February 27, 2005 7:10 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Huh? OBL + Iraq was NEVER the reason for invading Iraq. You ask if it sounded familiar, and I reply - Nope. Never heard it, sorry. How soon do you forget the Gulf War, the agreements Iraq broke, the 17 U.N. Resolutions brought up, the 10+ yrs of 'Second chances' that Saddam got , only to fall back on his word.....


The UN resolutions concerning Hussein and WMD was one part of the rationale for war. The other two parts were that Hussein had ties to terrorists, including al Qaeda, and that those terrorists could get WMDs from Hussein to attack the US. That is how the war in Iraq was justified as part of the War on Terror(ism). This war was presented as necessary for the security of our own country.

If you look at the case for war this administration presented to the American people, in various speeches, you see those three components: WMDs, terrorist ties, terrorists getting WMDs to attack us here at home. Rue has pointed out two. I'll point out two more (and expand a bit on the SOTU). Now, whether or not you personally think this is justification for a preemptive war, that is the way it was presented.

"Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" - October 2, 2002
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html
Quote:


Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;
Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens;
Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;
Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;



"President Delivers "State of the Union"" - January 28, 2003
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
Quote:


Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror, and mass murder. They could also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies, who would use them without the least hesitation

...

With nuclear arms or a full arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, Saddam Hussein could resume his ambitions of conquest in the Middle East and create deadly havoc in that region. And this Congress and the America people must recognize another threat. Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes. (Applause.)



"President Says Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours" - March 17, 2003
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html
Quote:


Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.

The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda.

The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other.



If you honestly think, after reading these documents, that Iraq + al Qaeda was never part of the reason for invading Iraq then I guess we're at an impasse. It seems pretty clear to me. I kind of feel like the captain, "Why we still talking about this?"

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Sunday, February 27, 2005 9:16 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Still, wanting to ignore all those pesky U.N. resolutions and such might be called........



I never ignored them. I, just like the rest of the world, know that there were a number of resolutions and such.

BUT, what isn't admitted by people like you is that although the resolutions stated that non-compliance would result in consequences, they didn't state what those consequences were, nor how harsh they were to be.

So, given that the majority of the world was against the US's action because of the clearly, to put it lightly, WEAK "evidence" to what GW and friends were saying, I'd say, along with the rest of the world, that there was no actual justification to go to war.

Feel free to debate this... again amongst yourself. I have no time to debate against something that has already been proved in my favour.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, February 28, 2005 10:36 AM

SAGRILARUS


unsubscribe

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Saturday, March 5, 2005 1:37 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


I'm not politically informed, for the most part. I don't have articles to quote or whatnot. However, I remember clearly that one of the reasons we felt the need to go into Iraq was because they had weapons of mass destruction.

Iraq might choose to use these weapons, or sell them to terrorists to use.

So I said, at the time, "I sure hope we find those weapons, or we will look like idiots to the entire world."

And so we didn't find those weapons, and so we looked like idiots to the entire world.

And so that much has to be conceded. The administration was wrong. There weren't any weapons of mass destruction. I don't know if they were wrong deliberately, or they were wrong by accident, but they were wrong.

On the bright side, we haven't had any planes crash into buildings for a while, so the terrorists are either lazy or they're being stopped. So we have to grant THAT to the administration, too.

Which counts for more? I dunno. We won't know the true impact of this administration for another 6 or 10 years, and another administration will be praised or condemned for this administration's decisions.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, March 5, 2005 11:36 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Yeah, AnthonyT, I've had the same thought myself in terms of how this all gets written down in the history books - we just don't know yet (and which country's history book it happens to be will also affect things ).

In more general Iraq War terms, for me, it partly comes down to decisions and outcomes. While I think going into Iraq was a bad decision, I'm hoping and praying that there is a good outcome.

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