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Armed police have the right to fire if they believe that their or other lives are at risk.

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"The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand, he held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."

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Despite temperatures of around 22C (72F), officers and witnesses said the man was wearing a heavy coat under which it was feared may have been a bomb.

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Are you seriously telling me that they should have tried to just tackle him when these bombs can be activated with just one push of a button?

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In the past two years, firearms and surveillance units of the police have been retrained in new procedures under the Kratos rubric, and these include changes to the rules of engagement.

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We can speculate about the kind of effect that giving someone a warning might have, if you suspect they might be a suicide bomber.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
do not run in the tube, etc.

Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know what happened in this event. But I would caution against too quickly and too harshly criticizing the British police. Although it is distasteful that this man may have been shot while on the ground, it is also not without a possible justification. If the police believed that this guy was a suicide bomber and that he did have or could have had a bomb, then it behooves them to kill this guy before he could have detonated the bomb, particularly if there were innocent people around.

It is possible that this was an over reaction, but then one must be fair in their criticism. The British police are charged with protecting the British people from an enemy that is capable and willing to do great damage to innocent people with no regard for their own lives. Mistakes are bound to be made, and unnecessarily ridiculing policemen who act in good faith is not the direction you want to go when your population is dependent on a police force capable of reacting to terrorism. That doesn’t mean that bad cops shouldn’t be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but it does mean that responsible citizens and media should keep the wild speculation and fruitcakey conspiracy theories to a minimum.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
Thomas Jefferson

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
fruitcakey conspiracy theories

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
fruitcakey conspiracy theories

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I wasn't aware of any connected with this particular incident...(?)

Chrisisall

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Originally posted by citizen:
I agree to a point. But not questioning police actions at the best of times could lead to something far worse (IMHO) than terrorism.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Well, I'm not up on the absolute latest advances in nonlethal weaponry, but aren't there ways to immobilize a person so they can't push a button on a bomb?

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Original post by HKCavalier:
But they say it's right and necessary under the circumstances. It looked like the guy had a bomb, for crying out loud, what're the cops supposed to do? That's an important question.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Original post by HKCavalier:
But they say it's right and necessary under the circumstances. It looked like the guy had a bomb, for crying out loud, what're the cops supposed to do? That's an important question. {/QUOTE]

Shoot to kill is the directive the police are working under. Perhaps they did nothing wrong, but what scares me is the fact they held him down and shot him a close range. The number of shots fired is immaterial.

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields

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A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.

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original post by farquat
to those that say the police were wrong to push upto 5 bullets into the suspected suicide bomber first consider this... have you ever attempted to restrain somebody who has taken drugs

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original post by farquat
now nobody knows precisely what the mind set of the bomber is, but if you consider that they have been brainwashed into thinking that if they blow themselves up along with as many innocent people as they can then they wll sit at the right hand of their god, then that is very immotive stuff and i for one would not trust one bullet to combat this strong but pitiful mental and physical strength

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original post by Ruxton
Musims are PROHIBITED by their belief to commit suicide.

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A small minority of Muslims... misunderstand the word shaheed (martyr) when it comes to war and the act of suicide.

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*{Nor take life—which God has made sacred—except for just cause.}* (Al-Israa' 17:33)

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*{If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder (without just cause) or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved all mankind.}* (Al-Ma'idah 5:32)

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Islamic terrorists are really okay fellas because the Koran says so.

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middle of summer

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Originally posted by citizen:
You ain't been to England, have you?

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
(even though the number of times doesn't matter)

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original post by citizen:
Its the ferocity of the attack thats important, I posted early that the number of shots was not important, but I suppose I was wrong.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
How many shots does it take before killing someone isn't ferocious? If the police had only used one bullet, would that have been less ferocious?

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original post succatash:
After he died, he stopped caring about how many times he was shot.

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Originally posted by citizen:
They are trained more to the standard of SWAT teams, and I find it hard to believe that such professionals can see it necessary to put five bullets into the back of someone's head from point blank range.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The only person for whom the way he died is a secondary issue is him, IMHO.

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original post by Succatash:
I'm just trying to say that the main issue is an innocent person was killed by cops trying to stop terrorists from killing innocent people. The terrorists have created a state of such fear that the cops are doing their job for them.

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original post by Succatash:
If citizens now feel, "Oh shit, that cop is looking at me! He might shoot me, I'm terrified!" Well, then the terrorists are winning.

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original post by Succatash:
So if cops go around shooting innocents 2 times instead of 5, somehow that's better?

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
You seem to want to portray the British police as a bunch of reckless cops out to commit summary execution, while at the same time you’re splitting hairs on the Koran. In other words, wild speculation and fruitcakey conspiracy theories. Unless you were there you don’t know what actually happened, so your assessment that the police held this guy down and shot him five times in the back of the head is as likely nonsense then any knowledgeable assessment of the event. But still you capitalize in bold the number of shots the media says were fired, completely unaware of what it actually means to fire those shots, and evidently uninformed of your own police force.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
You really need to gain some useful information and perspective.

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Originally posted by citizen:
How about you read what I said rather than see that I quoted the Qur'an and assume its some crackpot conspiracy theory.
Ruxton alluded to the fact that Muslims are forbiden from committing suicide bombings because of their religion, I used some quotes from their holy text to support the GOVERMENT and POLICE view that this was not the case.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Many sources have said, including a number of witness that five shots were fired at point blank range, thats where my assessment comes from.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Where does yours come from exactly? Your idea that I don't know what I'm talking about. Why, because I dissagree with your assessment, so you feel its better to insult me and say I don't know what I'm talking about, rather than show any evidence to the contray.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Its my experience that people who have their view threatened and are unable to adequetly defend them resort to these sort of tactics.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You need to grow up and realise that people can have a different point of view to you. If you believe I'm wrong try making a reasonable reasearched argument, possibly with evidence, you may have heard of it, to back it up.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
As usual you got it wrong again. Who but the government told you it was Muslim terrorists behind the bombings? Why are you so totally gullible to what you're told?

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
(and remember, NO ONE knows at this time whether the shooters were cops, spec ops, an Israeli death squad, or nuns dressed in plainclothes)

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Two would be normal for trained shooters, but any number of shots indicates either intentional murder or lack of control by the people involved. You really need to gain some useful information and perspective, Finn.

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Originally posted by citizen:
That he turns out later to be innocent is a tragedy, and things must be done to prevent it happening again.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
Citizen,

Thanks for that most interesting link re Muslim suicide.
======================
Finn: "Islamic terrorists are really okay fellas."
As usual you got it wrong again. Who but the government told you it was Muslim terrorists behind the bombings? Why are you so totally gullible to what you're told?

You also said:
"You really need to gain some useful information and perspective." This applies to you in spades. You really have NO idea of the use of lethal force and what it does to the shooter before and during the act. The widely reported (by numerous witnesses) figure of five shots is not up for discussion, except by those like you. The fact that five shots were fired (and remember, NO ONE knows at this time whether the shooters were cops, spec ops, an Israeli death squad, or nuns dressed in plainclothes) indicates the shooter was OUT OF CONTROL. Two would be normal for trained shooters, but any number of shots indicates either intentional murder or lack of control by the people involved. You really need to gain some useful information and perspective, Finn.
==============================
Succatash: But who are the terrorists? There is more evidence that Bush and Blair are terrorists rather than any other group/nation/bunch. And yes, the "terrorists" are winning, i.e., getting their agendas passed, like the ID card in Britain and the now-reinstated Patriot Act in the U.S. Also, the populace is quite terrorized, wanting yet MORE government protection. Does that not tell you who benefits?

People, why do you BELIEVE all the crap you're told? Why don't you ask questions, such as, Does this make sense? Who told me they're Muslims? Why should I believe him? Etc.

Forty years ago I determined beyond question I was being lied to by "authorities," by the U.S. news media, etc. Things have only gotten worse.

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Originally posted by Ruxton:
People, why do you BELIEVE all the crap you're told?

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
You compared the British police to US SWAT teams. You either don’t know what a US SWAT team is or you are misinformed about the British police. Furthermore you implied that they shouldn’t have to use five shots, when actually there is not quota on shots fired.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes, people at the scene, who were probably more interested in getting away from the event then actually scrutinizing it and were probably speaking more from shock then anything else did describe something similar to that, according to the media.

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
Where is the information that the shots were to the back of the head or that the police were holding the guy down?

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
Many people have different points of view, some of them are based more on assumption then fact.

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original post by Fin mac Cumhal:
Any number of shots, huh? So there’s basically no way, in your view, that the police could have fired any shots without it being labeled murderers or out of control?

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Originally posted by citizen:

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original post by Finn mac Cumhal:
Any number of shots, huh? So there’s basically no way, in your view, that the police could have fired any shots without it being labeled murderers or out of control?

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I don't believe thats what Ruxton meant, at least thats not how I read it.

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields

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Originally posted by citizen:
So we should dismiss out of hand anything the eyewitnesses have to say? This is what we have to go on. But I conceed your point about complete information.
However you should remember that we will never have complete unbiased information.

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Originally posted by citizen:
This is true, and if you believe that of my argument, or anyone elses, you will find that most people, including myself are more receptive to a reasonable reasoned argument, than simply being told their wrong, they don't know what their talking about, etc. etc.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't believe thats what Ruxton meant, at least thats not how I read it.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
At this particular moment, I believe it is the DUTY of everyone to NOT behave in a way that will get you shot. Do not wear heavy coats in heat, do not scowl at police officers, do not run in the tube, etc. This might sound like I'm gladly accepting the police state mentality, but no, it's simply being realistic.

Chrisisall

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
At this particular moment, I believe it is the DUTY of everyone to NOT behave in a way that will get you shot. Do not wear heavy coats in heat, do not scowl at police officers, do not run in the tube, etc. This might sound like I'm gladly accepting the police state mentality, but no, it's simply being realistic.

Chrisisall

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And don't ever do anything the slightest bit illegal, so you never have any reason to run from the cops, because all crimes have become punishable by death if you don't submit quietly.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:
We are all responsible for our own actions.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And don't ever do anything the slightest bit illegal, so you never have any reason to run from the cops, because all crimes have become punishable by death if you don't submit quietly.

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