Let the people of Iraq decide. by SergeantX

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

I've wondered what Bush means by saying we'll leave if asked, but I have an idea regarding that. Why not just put it to a vote? And I'm not talking about polling the members of the existing government (who have might have a great deal to lose if we go), but a real honest-to-goodness referendum of the people. They've shown their willingness, and their ability to participate in democracy. Why not let them decide their future?

I see two major flaws to this plan.
The first is how we have a real referendum of the people there, when we can't even do that very well over here. We have questionable voting results involving bits of paper and a hole punch here, not to mention the infamous DIEBOLD voting machine controversy (or lack thereof, depending on p.o.v.).
Second - and this one's the real kicker- lets say the majority tell us to leave. Do we abandon the minority that didn't to their fate at the hands of insurgents or bombers? We have a President here that thinks a mandate is a 2% victory margin. Is a mandate there 51%? What of the other 49%? We can't just leave them unprotected, especially if word might get out of who may have voted the 'occupiers' to stay (or from false claims that turn into witch hunts).
Now, I'm not a fan of the war, I make no bones about that. I didn't think it was legally or morally justified, nor do I think that the insurgency is in its last throes. But that is neither here nor there in this case. We came, and now we have to stay until it's fixed and stable, which could take years. In my opinion, we have to stabilize the country rapidly, which may mean more troops there instead of less. But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Monday, August 1, 2005 9:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.

This is why they don't believe us when we say we'll leave. It also shows just how serious we are about democracy.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.
This is why they don't believe us when we say we'll leave. It also shows just how serious we are about democracy.

The people of Iraq elected a government that has not asked us to leave.

I guess we could do a lot of things by popular vote, that pure Democracy. But its not very practical for running a large nation. Thats why we have adopted a Representative Democracy. We elected representatives, including the President, who make decisions about things like when to bring the troops home or how much corn to put in our gasoline. That is what we brought to Iraq.

That said, last I heard the Pentagon was looking at a gradual draw down in forces aiming to be mostly gone by next spring, instead shifting to a logistical and air support role (and maybe some heavy backup if needs be, probably based in Kuwait) for the new Iraqi army.

As for leaving completely, why would you want us to abandon our Iraqi allies to fight alone? That aint right. We'd never abandon Japan or Germany. Iraq is a friend and ally and deserves the same consideration.

H

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:54 AM

AGLACA

Just wondering, but has anyone ever asked our troops who are over there, been over there or are about to go over there what they think? It's easy to watch the news and wish other people do the dirty work, but never once have I seen anyone ask me or another other military troops what we should do?

For those of you who say we should stay until the country is stable, would you if able join the military to do your part in what you think the US should do?

I agree, we got into this for whatever reason. If the majority wanted us out I'd normally say fire up the grill I'll be home for dinner. However some people I know have been killed over there. One guy I know lost his wife because she couldn't stand being away from him for the year he was there. We have a lot invested, and to pull out now would take it all away.

On top of that there are the children of Iraq to think about. We can't just throw them to the wolves and hope for the best. The adults didn't turn on the Government like we did two hundred and twenty some years ago or else I might have some respect for the majority of them, even if they lost (one group did, a group that has my respect, but that’s another story). The children are our best hope for peace in the Middle East. True it won’t happen for a very long time, maybe even a few generations, but we need to start somewhere. Eventually the insurgents will die, from old age if it comes to that. If we can keep them from raising more people to take there places, that will stomp it out. If popular opinion turns greatly in the next generation, which will stomp it out. On top of all that the children of the soldiers we have lost are the true victims so far, let’s not make the Iraq children any more the victims than the insurgents choose to make them.

If you can read this, thank a teacher,
If your reading this in English, thank a soldier.

Aglaca, Combat Medic, US Army.

You can't take the sky from me.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The people of Iraq elected a government that has not asked us to leave.

Uh huh, pretty much what I figured. I addressed this in my post. The members of the current government have powerful, personal incentives for us to stay. You're counting on that, of course, and I understand why you don't want to be bound by the will of the people. But if that's the case, let's just have the balls to admit that we ain't leaving 'til we're damn good and ready. Like never, maybe.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 6:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

Uh huh, pretty much what I figured. I addressed this in my post. The members of the current government have powerful, personal incentives for us to stay. You're counting on that, of course, and I understand why you don't want to be bound by the will of the people.

If we left tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more and many would be those elected to represent the nation. Thats a pretty powerful personal incentive, but can you blame them?

We are, by our own choice, bound by the will of the Iraqi people. They turned out by the millions braving terror and tragedy to cast their votes. Now you want to casually disregard their will and call for a 'do over' simply because you do not agree with the outcome.

Kind of a theme with you Bush-haters. Don't like the results of the elections, so you declare the elected leadership unfit and want to have another vote.

Your real problem is not the people who keep getting elected, its the people who keep electing them. You might want to consider fascism, I think you'd find it more to your liking.

You know a lot of liberals really would love a some fascist government'in, they've been practicing for years. PC and thought control on the university campuses, political machines in the major cities, and everybody knows what happens when you cross a labor union, its like liberals have this desire deep down to, well you know, dictate.

Sure, there's crazies out on the far right who're the same way, the Klan and those people who kill the baby-murderers...er...abortion doctors, but we keep our crazies locked up, out of the way. Democrats put them in charge, thats why the only thing they've won in, oh bouts 25 years, are two terms for Clinton. They've lost Congress, the Presidency, most of the state houses and governorships, their moral direction, and now they're losin the courts. Hell, I'd be a Democrat if I didn't keep wondering "what has happened to the Democratic Party of my youth?" And I'm only thirty...

I know some of you will wonder at my implying that liberals are fascists. I mean no direspect, but if your not fascist wannbe's why do all of your solutions involve disregarding elections? I assume any answer will involve some comment on the legitimacy of the election being the predicate for your respecting its results. I can understand that, after all the world is flat.

H

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:12 AM

You know, I've been over at another site reading the latest Bush idiocy about ID Theory in science classes, so I'm feeling snarky enough to respond to this (because your thread kinda torked me off).

Quote:
Originally posted by Aglaca:
Just wondering, but has anyone ever asked our troops who are over there, been over there or are about to go over there what they think? It's easy to watch the news and wish other people do the dirty work, but never once have I seen anyone ask me or another other military troops what we should do?

As I said when I was involved with the 'Support the Troops' post, I have many friends over there right now. They think going over there was a mistake, though they are happy to serve and try to do what is right to the best of their ability. Whether or not they think it's wrong, they don't have a choice, they have to go, and stay at the whim of the administration. That's just the breaks. As far as wishing other people to do the 'dirty work,' if more Iraqis had been willing to do that in the first place, we wouldnt be over there. Democracy starts at home, not at the point of a machine gun.

Quote:
For those of you who say we should stay until the country is stable, would you if able join the military to do your part in what you think the US should do?

I hate when people roll out this old chestnut (both sides do it, too). Lets roll out your logic train here, and see where you jump the track.
People didn't think the war was just-->People in this country and abroad said don't go-->Pres says we go anyway-->Doesn't go well, just as many said it didn't-->Now those who said it shouldnt have happened, who thought it was wrong or a mistake should volunteer themselves or their kids while those responsible for the mistake are not held accountable, because if they don't they aren't real patriots - Ah, yeah, that's where the train flew off, right there.

Quote:
The children are our best hope for peace in the Middle East. True it won’t happen for a very long time, maybe even a few generations, but we need to start somewhere. Eventually the insurgents will die, from old age if it comes to that. If we can keep them from raising more people to take there places, that will stomp it out.

Have you seen the pictures of Palestinian gunmen handing 6-year olds assault rifles? Not really sure a 6-year old with a gun is a great chance for peace, but I digress. How are we supposed to teach them that violence is not the answer if we keep responding with more violence? You also talk like the insurgents will just grow old and kick off, and that everyone will be happy and celebrate. "If we just keep fighting them, they'll all eventually die, and we can go back to being America." Whatever. Continued conflicts raise more people to the struggle, that's just a fact of life. When a teenager sees his sister, or parents killed by an accidental bombing, do you think he says "it was the insurgents' fault, those bad, bad folks"? No, he picks up a gun and joins the insurgency. Our best hope for peace is to find a peaceful solution.

Quote:
On top of all that the children of the soldiers we have lost are the true victims so far,

Because any dead Iraqi children can't be nearly as important as our surviving kids that lost a parent. Smug, superficial, unthinking statement from you. I think this was the line that cheesed me off enough to respond. I don't like it when people are killed, nor do I like it when kids are orphaned due to war. Any kids, any time, any place; not just the ones safe here at home. The more I think about this, the angrier I get.

Quote:
If you can read this, thank a teacher,

You're welcome (I teach Lit). And this particular teacher recommends you read the short story "The War Prayer," by Mark Twain.
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/warprayer.html
There's the link so you can read it right now, even.

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Your real problem is not the people who keep getting elected, its the people who keep electing them. You might want to consider fascism, I think you'd find it more to your liking.

You know a lot of liberals really would love a some fascist government'in, they've been practicing for years.

H

It's good that you think that 'us Libs' will love a fascist state, since that's the direction we're headed. Glad to know I'll be happy when the right-wingnuts finally get their way. Since we seem to be headed in that direction right now...

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:51 AM

Hero,

Before you tried to derail the conversation with your rant against liberals (*hint - I ain't a liberal) you made a couple of intelligible points.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
If we left tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more and many would be those elected to represent the nation. Thats a pretty powerful personal incentive, but can you blame them?

Right, that's the point I was making. That's why we really can't count on them to convey the 'leave' message, if that's truly what the people want.

Quote:
Hero again:
We are, by our own choice, bound by the will of the Iraqi people. They turned out by the millions braving terror and tragedy to cast their votes. Now you want to casually disregard their will and call for a 'do over' simply because you do not agree with the outcome.

I didn't get to read the ballots, but I don't think "America, stay or go?" was on there. I'm pretty sure Bush wouldn't have stood for it if it was.

Quote:
Kind of a theme with you Bush-haters. Don't like the results of the elections, so you declare the elected leadership unfit and want to have another vote.

Wrong again. I've never disputed the election results, other than to say the people made a terrible choice. But that's the way it goes.

The rest is just the typical partisan sports talk.

Quote:
Blah blah blah...

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Any poll at any time shows that 90%+ Iraqis agree on one thing: They want USA soldiers out of Iraq. What might happen if the USA just left?

The first thing is that the foreign fighters in Iraq would no longer have a reason to blow themselves up. After that, you would have to consider what the current Shiite government (heavily inflitrated by Al Sadr loyalists) would do without continuing support from the USA. The worst-case scenario is that Iran steps in to help the Shiites, and that surrounding Sunni groups continue to bolster Iraqi Sunnis, drawing outside parties into what is essentially a civil war.

But the best case scenario- one that the USA could put it's weight behind- is that without USA support (and that includes w/drawing all the "security" contractors that are currently assisting the government- directed paramilitary police) is that the government reconsitute itself to give the Sunnis a meaningful place at the table and reverse the process of de-Baathification. (Don't forget, in the process of de-Baathification, Sunni engineers, doctors, and non-officer enlisted lost their jobs.)

In addition, the government could reverse many of the onerous terms that were imposed on it by Bremer. Until/ unless that is done, the Shiite government will rightly be seen as a USA puppet.

One of the reasons why the Iraqis (and others) don't believe that the USA will w/draw is because thr USA is in the process of building permanent military bases. Halting construction would be a postive step.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 4:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Signy

Quote:
One of the reasons why the Iraqis (and others) don't believe that the USA will w/draw is because the USA is in the process of building permanent military bases.

And again ...

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Thank you, SevenPercent, for the most powerful quote on this thread. We need to hear more from you.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sometimes Hero slips a few cogs. Meaning no disrespect, and ignoring the flame-bait about liberals, the guy who in one thread can opt to nuke'em till they glow

Quote:
I would support both the threat, the demonstration (the destruction of one or two Iranian cities) and, if they prove to be so much more foolish then Japan, the execution of the threat by the systematic and complete eradication of the Arab world

without regard to guilt, innocence or even effectiveness suddenly turns into a conscience-stricken liberal (with apologies to conscience-stricken liberals) about dead Iraqis and dead babies in this one.

Quote:
If we left {Iraq} tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more......and baby-murderers

I mean... DANG! I'm in awe on this one! The ethical gymnastics are impressive!

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sometimes Hero slips a few cogs.

Ha! You don't know the half of it. There was this one time, in traffic court...but I digress.

Quote:

the guy who in one thread can opt to nuke'em till they glow
Quote:
I would support both the threat, the demonstration (the destruction of one or two Iranian cities) and, if they prove to be so much more foolish then Japan, the execution of the threat by the systematic and complete eradication of the Arab world

Wow, thats I good quote. I can turn me a phrase when I wants it I can.

Quote:

without regard to guilt, innocence or even effectiveness suddenly turns into a conscience-stricken liberal (with apologies to conscience-stricken liberals) about dead Iraqis and dead babies in this one.
Quote:
If we left {Iraq} tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more......and baby-murderers
I mean... DANG! I'm in awe on this one! The ethical gymnastics are impressive!

You think my ethical gymnastics are amazing, you should see me in bed, which is a line I used on a certain stripper/lawyer micro-miniskirted business suit chick I convicted of a traffic violation the other day.

The two ideas are not as contradictory as first imagined. The ultimate cause is the winning of the war, just as it was in the Second World War. I believe that the millions of Germans and Japanese, the women, children, laborers, farmers, and conscripted soldiers; these people suffered painful death, witnessed devestation, and suffered gross indignaties at the hands of the Allies. It is true that those responsible, the leaders of those beligerant nations and not the Aliies, were ultimately brought to justice of one kind or another. But the foundation of the American democratic ideal that has since liberated most of the world is the notion of liberty and fundamental to the notion of liberty is that power, true power within a state originates from the consent of the people. So in order for the people of the Islamic world to change we must support and protect their first steps in a world of their own choosing (Iraq) and yet be prepared to allow them to reap the consequences of the world they have allowed to evolve (Iran). So its not any great leap to bounce between one position and another. Its more like a ship charting its way past rocks on one side and shoals on the other, yet never waivering from its ultimate course, liberty for all.

H

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

A few minor corrections?

Quote:
But the foundation of the American democratic ideal that has since liberated most of the world is the notion of liberty and fundamental to the notion of liberty is that power, true power within a state originates from the consent of the people.

Actually, it's a French Enlightenement ideal, stated most clearly in The Social Contract (Jean Jacques Rousseau).

Quote:
The ultimate cause is the winning of the war {of liberty for all}...

Your answer is pretty much as I thought it would be. Nuking the Islamic world has nothing to do with defense against terrorism as you've claimed in many other threads. Your basic motivation is really to impose your views by any means possible, including the death of millions. So you'll forgive me if each time you bring up the whole "defense against terrorism" argument I slap on a big "red herring" sticker? In the whole ends/ means spectrum I guess that makes you no worse than the average terrorist who only wants to make us all pure in the eyes of God.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, it's a French Enlightenement ideal, stated most clearly in The Social Contract (Jean Jacques Rousseau).

No, its an American ideal. All credit to Rousseau for writing it down, but Americans made it work. The French have yet to get it right.

Quote:

Your basic motivation is really to impose your views by any means possible, including the death of millions. So you'll forgive me if each time you bring up the whole "defense against terrorism" argument I slap on a big "red herring" sticker? I guess that makes you no worse than the average terrorist who only wants to make us all pure in the eyes of God.

There is a big difference between those who seek the liberation of the soul and those who seek its enslavement. We do not seek to impose American ideals nor do we advocate the use of "any means possible". We believe that all persons great and small are endowed by their creator (be it God, Allah or just Mom and Dad) with certain rights these include, but are not limited to life, liberty, and the right to watch Serenity in theaters a few weeks hence.

You cannot impose something that was always there. But you can help it thrive by reaching out our hand in friendship to those who have known only oppression. But ultimate responsibility remains with the individual. If there were no America, it is the responsibity of each person to secure the blessings of their own liberty, thus the Iranian people must be willing to accept the consequences of what they have allowed their nation to do. Iran is a friend of terror and it is the policy of this nation to sow our mighty warmaking power on those who attack us and any who support them.

Iran could be free today and a valued ally had their people but the will.

Its not any means necessary. We wait and we pray and we hope and we stand ready. God willing we wont have to go. As for nukes, they are as they have always been, the last resort. I know they scare you, I feel sorry it is tbe way it is. But we must stand ready with all the power we have lest we face a day when what power we have is not enough to preserve our own liberty, much less that of our allies.

H

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 5:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There is a big difference between those who seek the liberation of the soul and those who seek its enslavement

The religious would say that THEY are seeking to liberate souls but you are trying to enslave them. You're both more than ready to liberate people from their bodies. The only difference is that you have the word "liberty" on your lips and they have the word "Allah".

Red herring alert!

Quote:
But we must stand ready with all the power we have lest we face a day when what power we have is not enough to preserve our own liberty, much less that of our allies.

You were ready to nuke Iran whether or not they had anything to do with an attack on the USA. You can dance around all you want, but you're convicted by your own words. Until you acknowledge your own impulses and/ or recognize the deep contradictions in your own statements, you're just not worth responding to.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 7:34 AM

So to sum up, most of you think we should stay in Iraq and teach them the fundamentals of democracy, even after they vote for us to leave (assuming we ever allowed a vote)?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 10:00 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You cannot impose something that was always there. But you can help it thrive by reaching out our hand in friendship to those who have known only oppression.

Ah, that's beautiful. Who'd have thought reaching out our hand would have such a death toll?

Chrisisall is right, give Hero a radio show, he's way funnier than Rush.

Hero, you're a national treasure!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 8:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ah, that's beautiful. Who'd have thought reaching out our hand would have such a death toll?

Chrisisall is right, give Hero a radio show, he's way funnier than Rush.

Hero, you're a national treasure!

Yesterday 19 of my friends and neighbors from northeast Ohio died fighting for freedom in Iraq.

Its fine to hide behind these computer screens and debate the morality of this conflict. Its fine to make blanket accusations and baseless assertions from the security of your annonymous existance. But I'm here, live and in person, face to face with the reality of war in the eyes of those left behind.

Those men fought for freedom. Those men died for their country. They were proud of what they were doing and believed in the mission and the Commander-in-Chief. They're heroes and I'm proud of them. I'm proud of their service and in awe of their sacrifice. I look at men like Saddam and Bin Ladden and I know that they are not worth the lives of so fine a collection of souls as those boys. But to borrow a line: shit happens, somebody's gotta take care of it, so who ya gonna call? The US Marines, the son's of Ohio, thats who.

And if we find out foriegn fighters are responsible, Syrian, since that seems most likely, I say we blow the living hell out of that goddamn pissant little country and its bastard Baa'thist government. I might be emotional, but I aint wrong.

H

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 9:30 AM

FIVVER

Hero,

Those men have been in my thoughts and prayers and now, thanks to your post, they are in my heart.

I have friends who are serving over in that part of the world and a nephew who will soon be.

Fivver

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 9:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Yesterday 19 of my friends and neighbors from northeast Ohio died fighting for freedom in Iraq.

Its fine to hide behind these computer screens and debate the morality of this conflict. Its fine to make blanket accusations and baseless assertions from the security of your annonymous existance. But I'm here, live and in person, face to face with the reality of war

THAT BUSH OPTED FOR

Quote:
in the eyes of those left behind.

I don't question soldiers' morality nor do I make blanket accusations against them. I DO questions Bush's morality... and yours. YOU would choose that they sacrifice their lives for... whatever. Me - not so much. I feel for their families, friends, and compatriots. What a waste. What a shame.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I look at men like Saddam and Bin Ladden and I know that they are not worth the lives of so fine a collection of souls as those boys.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. It's why I'm so bitterly opposed to what's going on over there.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't question soldiers' morality nor do I make blanket accusations against them. I DO questions Bush's morality... and yours. YOU would choose that they sacrifice their lives for... whatever. Me - not so much. I feel for their families, friends, and compatriots. What a waste. What a shame.

You claim not to question the soldiers morality, you claim to support them despite your opposition to the conflict.

But you action is to use this opportunity to launch a personal attack against me and the President in the very face of my heartfelt grief at the loss of MY friends and MY neighbors. These men share my views far more then they share yours. Support for the war is highest among those who are serving on the front lines. And believe me they may hate having to travel to fight in Iraq, but one look at the events in London make them thankful to be fighting there then on the streets of Cleveland.

One was a police officer, another a new father, and another a new husband. They had hopes and dreams, they had fears and weaknesses. But to a man they volunteered to serve in a cause they believe. Beliefs you do not share and for that you attack me, and the President and ultimately them. The enemy targets America by attacking her soldiers. You target her soldiers by attacking America. It aint right. Men are dying out there, they deserve better then the likes of you tearing them down from the shadow of the walls they guard.

If you were here I'd knock you on your ass, but your not so I guess you can go to hell.

Pardon the anger, but, well, I'm a bit angry...thanks,

H

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You claim not to question the soldiers morality, you claim to support them despite your opposition to the conflict.

But your action is to use this opportunity to launch a personal attack against me and the President in the very face of my heartfelt grief at the loss of MY friends and MY neighbors.

Hero, I appreciate your anger, and I'm sorry for your grief, but the decision was yours. You were the one who posted this and used it as an opportunity to lob insults at those of us who are against the war.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 10:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thanks Sarge.

Hero- You know, for someone who claims understand the "reality" of war more than I, you seem awfully blase about the reality of death. In ALL of your posts you are more than ready to nuke and kill them, us, anyone, everyone- for your notions. That is the basis for tragedy.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

One was a police officer, another a new father, and another a new husband. They had hopes and dreams, they had fears and weaknesses. But to a man they volunteered to serve in a cause they believe. Beliefs you do not share and for that you attack me, and the President and ultimately them. The enemy targets America by attacking her soldiers. You target her soldiers by attacking America. It aint right. Men are dying out there, they deserve better then the likes of you tearing them down from the shadow of the walls they guard.

I had some respect for you Hero, until this post. You are using a tragedy that happened to people in your state to launch a fallacious appeal to emotion to gain moral superiority on a website, and that's pathetic.

Yes, the enemy targets America by attacking her soldiers, that's what people in a war do. That enemy is not us on this board nor is it anyone here at home. Damn right SargeX attacked the Pres, because he's responsible for putting those men in that unnecessary position. Those boys should never have lost their lives, but it sure as hell wasn't anyone on this board's fault, it was the responsibility of the man in charge (he lives in a big white mansion in DC, or on a ranch in Crawford TX, where his kids hang out while other people's kids get shot to bloody hell). So put it on the person responsible, not anyone else.

Your position is that when tragedy strikes, let's not look for answers, let's just jump on the Patriotic Bandwagon and say those who aren't waving flags and screaming for vengeance are un-American. Because having a knee-jerk reaction to world events has gotten us really far already as a country. Grow up, calm down, and use your head next time before you pull a stunt like this. Because that's what it is, a stunt. My town lost soldiers too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to use them in an argument like they were nothing, because that's what you did today. You owe SargeX and the boys from your state an apology.

Quote:
If you were here I'd knock you on your ass, but your not so I guess you can go to hell.

He says, after saying that tough guys hide behind computer screens. Real tough guys are taking bullets in places that they don't belong. And son, you aren't one of them.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 11:02 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hero,

Your post is just opportunistic grandstanding. And, job well done. Spoken like a true politician.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Because having a knee-jerk reaction to world events has gotten us really far already as a country. Grow up, calm down, and use your head next time before you pull a stunt like this. Because that's what it is, a stunt.

Your right. It was a stunt. This morning I dropped off flowers at the 3rd Battalion. Then I came to work and did my job to help run my city in the most professional and deliberate manner possible. In a moment of free time I expressed my feelings in writing in this forum which, despite our obvious differences, I respect and enjoy.

But your right. I knew that the honost and raw emotion would touch nerves. I wrote it from the heart without pause and with regard only to the passion I felt. I read it several times before I clicked the "post" button. Then, knowing the message of love, anger, and frustration would act as a lightning rod for those whose guilt runs so deep I sent it anyway.

That you, all of you, attacked the President was no surprise. You can't swing a dead cat without you guys blaming Bush for it (or something like that). That you included me was surprising.

I'm not rich, I work for the government. I struggle month to month with student loans and car payments. I turned down six figures because I love my job and my City. I do pro-bono work for my Church and volunteer with local charitee events. I'm a patriot. A Browns fan (they always win, I never miss a game, but this is our year). I'm good at my job, I work hard, I'm an informed voter, like you, but my conclusions are different from yours. I believe in fighting terror in Iraq, Afganistan, and yes, if necessary Iran and Syria or anywhere else. I pay my taxes happy in the knowledge that my money goes for ammunition and body armor and firm in my deliberate belief that it does not go for liberal anti-american art projects or to support illegal immigrants. I do not believe the war was for oil nor do I believe the worst of my President or the Army. I live and breath my love of America everyday and I believe its a love the President and I share, and THAT, aside from EVERY other issue ever discussed in 2000 or 2004, is the foundation of why I voted for Bush.

The way I see it your personal attacks on me were not just on me. They are on anyone who, like myself, believes, really believes in what America is doing. And no one believes as much as our soldiers, soldiers like those we lost and soldiers like who have closed the empty ranks.

So go ahead and attack. For my part I apologize about any offense my anger my have caused. My part in all this is to do my job and in my spare time fight with you fine folk over the roundness of the earth and the levity of the sky. Make your attacks then. I'll be here tomorrow to answer you, inflame you, and ultimately convince you (or make you give up). Thats what good lawyers do (Bad lawyer do it to, they just take a higher percentage).

Gotta go, the memorial service starts in an hour. Forgive me if I fail to pass on your regards.

H

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 1:44 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
I'm a patriot.

As are we.

PS Do you think you have a lock on anguish or love of country? That somehow we are all dilettante rich, slackers, bad at our jobs or willfully unemployed in order to live on the dole, and tax cheats because some of us are liberals, independents or (gasp) progressives?

WHAT AN ASS YOU ARE.

When you stop your little self-righteous parade and start to talk to the rest of us like we are real actual worthy people, just as worthy as you, maybe the personal attacks will stop.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Then, knowing the message of love, anger, and frustration would act as a lightning rod for those whose guilt runs so deep I sent it anyway.

You're a real piece of work, Hero. You manage to work in a great ad hominem along with your blistering appeals to emotion and appeals to patriotism, and I know you know what those are since you are apparently a lawyer. You attacked us first in this thread, all of us that "aren't as patriotic as you are" because the way we interpret the facts differs from the way you do. You did not bring up the deaths of those boys for sympathy for their families and friends; you used them to try to make all of us that didn't share your opinions look like bad people. It didn't work, we called you on it, and now you're trying it again; and again I'm going to call you on it.

Do I feel guilty about the deaths? Maybe I do, but not in the way you think I should. I feel guilty that maybe if I had written more letters, got more people to the polls in 2k and 2k4, that we wouldn't be in this mess. Maybe I should have donated more money to MoveOn, or to the DNC, so that this wouldn't have happened.

No, I think the real guilty feelings come from you. You voted for Bush, you supported his policies, and now what he has done has struck close to home, and you have to blame someone. But blaming Bush only makes you feel guilty for putting him in power, so you blame us instead. That way, it's someone else's fault, and if we were more patriotic, this wouldn't have happened. It's like a faith healer saying the boy in the crowd won't walk again because someone in the audience is an unbeliever, when in fact the guy on stage is a con man.

You want to show us what kind of guy you are by telling us about the little things you do every day. You go to church, you watch football, you're an average joe and we're all elitists who never do any real work. Please. I go to church, I watch football (the Jets, in case anyone wonders; we're boned this year- tough schedule and we shouldn't have let the Raiders have Jordan), I have a tough job that is also very rewarding with far less pay than I bet you get. But I can see which way the facts line up, and who gets paid to make the big decisions, and it's GWB. Remember TR? 'The Buck stops here?' I blame GWB because he is the ultimate man responsible for current US foreign policy. Why is criticizing the gov't suddenly a treasonous offense?

Quote:
Gotta go, the memorial service starts in an hour. Forgive me if I fail to pass on your regards.

Of course you won't. Because only you can really care, right? And in my opinion, based on the way you used those people's memories the way you did?
All you're doing is putting on another show.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 2:23 PM

Hero, one of my friends is in Iraq right now as I type. He might die over there. He's doing his duty to the best of his (considerable) ability.
If he comes home safe, this war still sucks.
If he dies it sucks, I'll just cry more and feel badly, but you gotta be objective. It's NOT about freedom for Iraq, or fighting terrorism. Belief or not in Bush aside, all the troops deserve to have our respect.
Bush deserves to be impeached.
And you need to be shaken, by a real big fella, hard. Bush got your friends killed. He might do the same for me.

Please wake up.
In the end, it's scarier not to.

Good luck with your radio show, though Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 2:46 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey everyone. I can't help noticing that the folks who write in criticizing Hero for exploiting the deaths of his friends to make his point are the same people who critisize Hero for all his posts. Does that seem right to you? Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.

Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends. I'm no fan of Hero's opinions or his tactics, but kicking a man, even a very rude man, when he's down isn't what you mean to do is it?

Hero, I'm very sorry to hear about the deaths of so many young men whom you cared about. That's a lot to carry. Maybe you could start a new thread to honor them, so folks don't think it's just another one of your rhetorical tactics.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 3:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends.

Yeah, I forgot to say that I felt sorry, too.

And I really do think he should replace Rush Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 3:53 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.

I will supply an answer. I am TRULY offended by his posts. His relentless backhanded slaps at those who disagree with him and concurrent exploitation of the war's tragedies are beyond honor.

When it comes to death, I rarely speak of the topic, never exploit grief to support an unrelated argument, and never, but never, presume on the opinions of the dead just because they are dead and can't defend their own views. (As if it is his right to presume and their job to explain.)

Hero has somehow managed to do all three - oh, and not coincidentally try to polish his own image with the same handy topic.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey everyone. I can't help noticing that the folks who write in criticizing Hero for exploiting the deaths of his friends to make his point are the same people who critisize Hero for all his posts. Does that seem right to you? Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.

Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends. I'm no fan of Hero's opinions or his tactics, but kicking a man, even a very rude man, when he's down isn't what you mean to do is it?

Hero, I'm very sorry to hear about the deaths of so many young men whom you cared about. That's a lot to carry. Maybe you could start a new thread to honor them, so folks don't think it's just another one of your rhetorical tactics.

B]

You don't want an answer, but I will respond, since I am, admittedly, the one being the most critical. It is only as of late that I have gotten involved with the RWED board here on FFF, especially given the length of time I have been a member of the community. And, really, it is only because of some heated conversations that I have been having in my own circle of friends about these same topics that I have been posting to begin with.

Since I don't usually post, it is unfair to say that the people being critical are the ones that are critical of him constantly. That isn't true in my case, since I was never critical of him before. I can assure you 100% that Hero drew my anger because I felt he was using the deaths of people in his town as a rhetorical tactic against the people that disagreed with him on this thread. I was harsh, and will continue to be so, because I think that is shameful and morally repulsive. He could have started another thread, like you suggested, to honor those people, but he didn't. He brought their memories in this one to use as a weapon against Rue, SargeX, and SignyM, then had the nerve to claim that they attacked him first.

I don't know him personally, and I haven't participated in these threads enough to have gotten to know him. But I would never use someone's personal tragedies as a weapon just to "get to them." That being said, I will also not stand by while someone uses a personal tragedy to get to others.

When I heard about all those deaths, I felt truly horrible. It could have been my friends, and I'm not afraid to admit my relief when it wasn't. And then what's the first thing I see when I log onto this thread? Someone using those poor guys' memory as a rub in the face against people who don't agree with a political position, used to say that the people who disagreed aren't real Americans and aren't good people. It made me angry, infuriated even. And I let him have it, perhaps a little too harshly. But then he went and did it again, so I let him have it again.

I feel badly for the man and his community. The war has hit everyone's community in one way or another. But don't use the dead to make yourself feel superior. It shames us and it shames them.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 6:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, I don't feel badly for Hero. He's not getting his ass shot up in Iraq.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 6:43 PM

I'm willing to accept that Hero was upset and let it go at that.

How about the original topic? Is there any way we can put pressure on the administration to live up to their claim to NOT make our presence in Iraq permanent? It seems it will take an intensive grass roots effort to push it, and I'm not sure Americans can get behind it. They seem to like this war stuff. Or are at least they're apathetic enough to ignore it when we are still occupying those military bases ten years from now. What do you think?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 6:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Most people don't know yet about the four "enduring" bases but don't worry, they will...

EDITED TO ADD: As far as pressuring the Administration- Bush et al are a lost cause. 80% of the population could be dead-set against something, but if it was worth their while they'd ram it through anyway. Just look at CAFTA and Bolton. And most Republicans for some reason have turned into Bush weenies. The best way to pressure the Administration is to pressure the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) out of existance and change the complexion of the Democratic Party.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 7:00 PM

You think? I'm not so sure. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I couldn't tell you how many permanent bases we have in Europe, or Southeast Asia. Can anyone shed some light on this topic? How many permanent military installations does the US maintain on foreign soil? I'll do some Googling if no one jumps on this.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 7:05 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bases or installations? There are over 800 permanent installations on foreign soil. That could be anything from huge military base complexes (Okinawa) to listening outposts. I had a list somewhere by nation and installation. Should I try to pull it up again?

As far as Iraq is concerned, the USA is building four "enduring" bases, capable of w/standing direct mortar attack. These bases are away from the cities and designed for the USA to provide aerial and "strike" support for Iraq troop operations.

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 7:10 PM

Interesting. I came up with similar numbers, with only sixty of the foreign bases considered "major" installations. I don't think we'll see any movement on this issue as long as the neo-cons are in charge. But it could change with a real change of heart from the voters. I don't see that coming though, as long as Al-Queda is playing their part in keeping everyone in fear. I still think they know exactly what they're doing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 5, 2005 3:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But it could change with a real change of heart from the voters. I don't see that coming though, as long as Al-Queda is playing their part in keeping everyone in fear. I still think they know exactly what they're doing.

Not ignoring... thinking.

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Friday, August 5, 2005 9:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I feel badly for the man and his community. The war has hit everyone's community in one way or another. But don't use the dead to make yourself feel superior. It shames us and it shames them.

The service was nice. It was almost happy in a sad sort of way, strange how that can happen. I printed up my orginal message, minus the part about blowing the crap out of Syria but with an addition offering any help I can provide as friend and attorney and gave it in a card to my friend's widow. She left me a nice message on my voicemail.

I didn't mention the other sentiments expressed, not the ones by ya'll and not the later ones by me. Just the first one, the rest of the discussion its best we keep between us.

All that said, thanks for letting me vent some of my emotion here rather then in a less appropriate venue. Ya'lls good folk...misguided damn fools the lot of ya, but good folk.

H

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Friday, August 5, 2005 9:42 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Yes, I thought it had the smell of a rehearsal. (see 'politician' above) I wasn't sure if you were going to include the attacks on liberals (for a very select audience) or go with the edited version.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, August 5, 2005 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
What do you think?

We're there to stay

Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 7, 2005 5:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hero's description of his presence at the funeral left me with a VERY weird, "off" impression. Am I the only one?

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Sunday, August 7, 2005 10:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The word creepy came to my mind, not just for that post but for a bunch of them. What struck me about that particular one was - if he was such a close friend, wny did he have to give the widow his business card? Wouldn't she know how to reach him?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:48 PM