Amazing Marvels of the Ages by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Amazing Marvels of the Ages

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, September 1, 2005 22:11
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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:40 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

There is something that bothers me, and I thought I'd share it with you all. Perhaps it bothers you, too.

There are various wonders in this world, like the pyramids, that stir a great deal of controversy and speculation.

The thing I most often hear about the pyramids is

1) We don't know how they built them

and

2) We couldn't build them, even today.

This causes a lot of speculation about aliens and magic and mental powers and all sorts of things.

While it may be true that we don't know how the Egyptians built the Pyramids (they didn't keep any surviving construction logs, to my knowledge) the idea that we couldn't build them seems rediculous to me.

The fact is that we, as modern people, cannot often fathom the desire to expend the manpower, effort, and money to build something like the pyamids. It seems like every time we see an ancient wonder that has some good architecture or engineering, we balk. "These cover stones are laid so close together... we could never do that."

And yet, I can't help thinking, "We could, but that would be a LOT of work."

Have we become so laid back as modern people that we are no longer capable of imagining the intense effort involved in creating something big?

Have we forgotten that the only primary ingredient needed to build a marvel, is the committed effort of a nation?

Have we forgotten the great dams, canals, the race to space?

Why do we refuse to fathom that ancient civilizations, using primitive means, could do something amazing by using the most simple and powerful tool available to anyone: Collective Effort?

I'll tell you another thing that bothers me...

Machu Pichu. I hope I spelled it right. Big drawings painted in a valley. Drawings of birds and animals.

The big deal? 'They can only be seen from the sky, in some kind of flying ship.'

And yet every picture I've seen of Machu Pichu has been taken from a mountain.

In any event, if you believed in God, might you specifically make religious drawings so that God could see them from the sky?

Does anyone else get bothered by these things?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:06 AM

CITIZEN

Well what you got to remember is that ancient people need help from Aliens because they were uncultured savages, and that we, as modern humans, are the very and indeed only embodiment of true civilisation.
Like people were creative before the 1700's, gah! Its obvious that they were just like the africans native americans and numerous others that need the white man to come civilise them.

or maybe not.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:34 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Does anyone else get bothered by these things?

Na, I just watch Stargate SG-1.

H

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:41 AM

HKCAVALIER

One winter back in college I constructed a replica of the hummingbird picture from Peru in a snow covered field (I have a knack for freehand geometry, so the thing was pretty darn symetrical). Even from the top floor of one of a nearby dorm the image was only barely discernable. What struck me most profoundly about the image, was the idea that the original makers of the ones in Peru could have intended to make art that was only directly perceivable by the gods; we could get up high and get a good idea of what the gods saw, but we would never share their perspective. A remarkably eloquent religious statement.

Yes, Anthony, people can show a real lack of imagination and a very diminished assessment of human potential. I don't understand it. So much of our culture comes to us ready-made. I remember when I was a kid and Legos came in generic sets, just a bunch of blocks of different colors. There were a few interesting pieces, like the one that was round and turned kinda like a lazy susan. You really had to use your imagination to create meaning out of the chaos. I remember when the first sets for building specific things, with customized pieces started appearing in the stores. The customized pieces were so specialized, they made unfettered imaginative exploration difficult. Nowadays, Lego makes Star Wars models. No creative imagination needed, only a will to ape existing forms. This kind of dumbing down of creativity in the young has gotta have an affect, no?

There are some real mysteries in the construction of the pyramids beyond their size and the precision of their workmanship. One such mystery is that there are apparently no traces of soot on the ceilings of the chambers and tunnels that would have been left by the torches we presume would have been used by the workers. Even chemical analysis of the stone reveals no trace. What'up wit' dat?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:46 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Well what you got to remember is that ancient people need help from Aliens because they were uncultured savages...

In anthropological circles this is known as the "Your Ancestors Were Dummies" theory (or YAWD for short). I get this term from a marvelous book entitled "Who Discovered America?", released in 1992 (the five-century anniversary of Columbus' voyage, natch). Sadly, I've misplaced it, and can't remember the author, but if you find it, snatch it up. It's full of clear thinking on the subject, and is unafraid to call a spade a shovel.

The YAWD theory, boiled down, says that no branch of mankind has every achieved anything without help from some shadowy Uber-society, be it Atlantians, Aliens, or Afrocentric Egyptians. Where these mysterious benefactors got their own uplift from is left undiscussed. Kind of like asking where God came from.

Generally speaking, the YAWD theory is a complete denial that any human being has ever had any kind of creative imagination whatsoever. I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it.

"Hermanos! The Devil is building a robot! Andale!" -- Numero Cinco

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:50 PM

CITIZEN

Kinda my point...
Though there *is* evidence for an 'Atlantis', some more believable than others.
For instance the pyriamid being so widespread in ancient culture (though I contend that this could just as easilly be something down to the Human psyche). Theres evidence to suggest that many languages trace back to a common route as well.

HK:
Have you heard of the attempt where the Pyramids were X-Rayed and each day gave a different result?
As for the lighting issue, I thought they'd found evidence for mirrors to redirect sunlight?
Apparently even electric lighting isn't out of the question, as batteries believed to be used for electroplating jewlery have been found in Iraq, and some possible batteries have even been found in egypt:

Quote:
There is some evidence—in the form of the Baghdad Batteries from sometime between 250 BC and 640 AD—of galvanic cells having been used in ancient times. Such ancient knowledge in the history of electricity bears no known continuous relationship to the development of modern batteries. The conjecture that these devices had an electrical function, while plausible, remains unproven, as with devices discovered in Egyptian digs that are alleged to be batteries as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(electricity)#History

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 4:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Have you heard of the attempt where the Pyramids were X-Rayed and each day gave a different result?"

Tell us all about it. I find the idea of X-ray scans of a giant stone building fascinating.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:24 AM

HKCAVALIER

Well, yes, the electricity theory is the best I've heard. Just didn't know if bringing it up would get me labelled as a loony. Thanks for the link. Have you seen the wall carvings of the giant incandescent light bulbs? Or whatever they are?

http://www.ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=72&z=1

Quote:
Is this the proof? Did the Egyptians know and use electric lights? If so, where did they get the principle from? Was it from their own invention, or did they have help?

There's that YAWD theory again. There really seems to be a mental block in people when it comes to the possibility that technologically advanced cultures existed in the ancient past and then vanished. It seems to disturb people that scientific advances made centuries ago could be lost only to be rediscovered recently. Is it that people secretly fear that such a fate could befall us and our science?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 5:41 AM

CITIZEN

Uhuh, I've seen em, I mean most of the great scientific inventions are 'accidents' and are not fully understood for sometime. The egiptians using electricity didn't mean they knew what it was or how it worked.
I mean all you need to make a battery is a lemon, so its not inconcievable that such a thing could be discorvered accidently. Furthure more an electric light isn't really that an advanced peice of technology, its a coil of wire that gets hot...
The one thing is (assuming that their electric lamps worked like ours if they existed) is did the egyptians have glass? How would they fill the bulb with inert gas?
Of course the filament could operate at a much lower temperature and they could use a copper mirror to give amplification. It wouldn't be terribly bright but at the size portrayed in the carvings it would probably give enough light to work too...

AnthonyT:
Do I detect a note of sarcasm there?
At any rate the actual experiment is in a book I have at home. I'm at work right now but I'll look it up when I get back in a couple of hours time.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:18 AM

GUNRUNNER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
2) We couldn't build them, even today.

Really? I guess you've never seen the Luxor?

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:51 AM

CITIZEN

AnthonyT,
The exact passage from the book regarding X-raying the pyramids:

Quote:
In 1968 Egyptian and American scientists X-rayed the pyramid, in the hope of detecting hitherto undiscovered chambers inside it. After more than a year they gave up, because their findings made no sense. Records made with the same equipment from the same point on successive days showed totally different ray-patterns. The head of the project called the results 'scientifically impossible' and said that 'there is some force that defies the laws of science at work in the pyramid'.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:30 PM

GUNRUNNER

Did they try using low frequency sonars instead of X Rays? Or low/very low/extremely low frequency radio waves?

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:41 PM

CITIZEN

Don't have a clue to be honest...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well,

Given that a lead sheet a couple of millimeters thick can stop X-rays, I'd think that X-raying something as huge and dense as a pyramid would yield no results. I'd actually assume that from the outset. I wouldn't X-ray the Trump tower either, you know?

Maybe I'm terribly ignorant about X-rays, having only experience from one side of the patient/doctor wall, but X-rays seem like the wrong tool to study the interior dimensions of a building... at least at the levels commonly found on the x-ray equipment I'm familiar with.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:11 PM

CITIZEN

Thats not really true. X-rays are used on buildings all the time...
In fact X-rays are far more penetrating than you may think. As for why lead stops x-rays:

Quote:
X-rays interact strongly with electrons. You may know that lead is good at blocking X-rays. Well, that's because each lead atom has 82 electrons and lead is a metal, so the atoms are packed together pretty close. Lead stops X-rays because it has a large electron density.

Sandstone doesnt

.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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