The violence and looting of New Orleans: what does that tell... by chrisisall

And another thing. Our National Guard can't help in NO, or Mississippi the way they could. Why? They're in Iraq. No plans for emergency management at home now, that war is too important. Screw the people of our own country, our international agenda is more urgent. Americans died, and are dying in our OWN COUNTRY!! OUR OWN COUNTRY Goddamnit!!!
Score another one for the terrorists, I guess.

And you Bush fans are lookin' stupider and sorrier by the minute.

How much does it take to see that this administration is KILLING US (LITERALLY as well)?

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 12:18 PM

MACBAKER

While the "blame crowd" is posturing and accusing, real Americans are doing everything they can to help. Families are opening their homes to the refugees, and opening their wallets with large donations to the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. Cities and states are sending food, police and national guard units. Some are providing shelter and opening their schools to the children who have lost everything.

Yes CHRISISALL, the National Guard can help, and they are! In fact, other states are sending even more Guardsmen into the areas affected. One of the reasons it's taking so long, is simple logistics. Trying to position troops where they are most needed and then figuring how to get them there. Getting this crucial intel is hampered by the almost total lack of communication into and out of New Orleans! Police radios don't work, phones are down and cell service isn't working. News teams on the scene seem to be providing the best information, but even that has proven to be as much speculation and rumor as fact. New Orleans SWAT teams have responded to several tips that have proven to be false, and that has hampered their effectiveness. It's also taking time, because of the sheer size of the disaster and the inaccessibility of the hardest hit areas. Most Guardsmen are arriving by Helo because that is the only way to reach those areas without blocking the few open routes that are already over packed with busses and emergency vehicles trying to get people out! Those helicopters can only bring in a handful of troops at a time. You have no concept of how messed up the basic infrastructure in the affected areas are. Roads are still flooded and/or blocked with huge piles of debris. Waterway access is also problematic with the massive amount of ship wreckage and debris in the water.

Some seem only to want to place blame and use this horrible disaster as political fodder. It's so easy to point fingers from the safety of your couch or computer terminal!!! How pathetic and sad. Some are comparing what happened after Katrina to 9/11, and that is incredibly moronic! The destruction in New York was limited to a very small area of the city. Services (fire, police, and medical) were still working, and access to the area affected was available. We lost an entire city folks!!!! 90% of New Orleans is either gone, underwater or severely damaged!!!! New York had it easy compared to this!!!! Wake up and smell what BS you are shoveling!!!

Yes, it hasn't been enough, but the blame isn't a lack of desire to help, but because of the massive size of the disaster! Has anyone checked a map lately? This disaster (disasters actually, the hurricane on the coast and the flooding in New Orleans) spans three states! The western coastline of Louisiana, and the entire coastlines of Mississippi and Alabama are effected. FEMA's worst case scenario wasn't even close to how bad it really was. No one expected this level of destruction. No one could plan for this! The reason it has taken so long to get help into the worst areas, is because of the level of destruction and the massive flooding! Planes with supplies couldn't land near New Orleans until the runways were cleared. Truck and emergency Vehicles have limited access in New Orleans because of the flooding, and even then, it took days to clear the roads that weren't flooded. The Coast Guard has said that access from the water has be severely hampered by debris blocking the waterways. They are doing what they can, but it's taken time to get to the worst areas.

Instead of pointing fingers, mourn the dead, and donate funds for those who still can be helped. Leave the partisan politics for later. There will be plenty of time for that crap later, like during the next election!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 1:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
No one expected this level of destruction. No one could plan for this!

What?
No one can plan for this? You have to be saying that out of emotion. Professional agencies with trained and funded staff can 'plan' for ANYTHING they are directed to plan for. FEMA had it's funds cut, Bush needed them for something else. I pointed my finger after 911, and I'm doing so now. My above posts were angry, I'll admit, but if the bus keeps hitting parked cars, how long till the driver takes some heat for it?
The poor planning and lack of resources to aid disaster victims is due DIRECTLY to ill-placed priorities.
Real people doing real things right now is a must; I just hope some see how the present administration is a clear and present danger to the long term saftey of this country, and remember it for the next election. Too much more of this empire will result in a copy of ancient Rome, and I'm NOT exaggerating.

If you think seeing the reasons behind things isn't as important as the problems themselves, well, then that's a point of view, certainly.

But can we as a nation finally put real family and human values before issues of control, greed, and corporate domination?
That would be a change, huh?

One last thing, I get the scope. It's like nothing we've seen in this country before. It's a waking nightmare.

So sad to see Bush cut short his vacation...

Chrisisall
EDIT: none of this anger is meant for you, Mac, I just can't believe this decade.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 1:39 PM

Here is an odd thing:

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Blogs_raise_questions_of_racism_in_hurri
cane_photo_cap_0902.html

The conclusion from the Blog world:

Associated Press is racist
- If you're black you're looting.
- If you're white you just found stuff!

Sad Really

I would say it is a little early to condemn the response and actions after the storm wiped-out New Orleans... That will take some objective hindsight, and likely the release of inside info on what dessions were actually made and why.

But one question that has stuck in my mind... The evactuation order in effect for some time before the storm actually hit... and it seems that only people who had their own transport available manage to get clear...

Was there any effort to evac the poorer people in the area using buses, or military transport ?

I'm not one to avoid slamming the Bushites when it is due, but more of the immediate action stuff in this case would be a state or local call... did they try anything like that ? if they didn't have the assets did they ask for them and were turned down ?

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

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Friday, September 2, 2005 2:27 PM

SPINLAND

The city had a multi-day tabletop exercise planning for this EXACT situation, and not all that long ago. Apparently such planning means little when faced with reality.

----
I can see you.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 2:43 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html
This article says a lot of what I stated, albeit in a more 'professional' manner.

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 2:48 PM

SPINLAND

Yep; those are the hard questions that must and will demand answers--preferably at the pointy end of impeachment proceedings. Send the heads which will roll down to the refugee camps for NO residents, so they can stick them on pikes.

----
I can see you.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 2:53 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
one question that has stuck in my mind... The evactuation order in effect for some time before the storm actually hit... and it seems that only people who had their own transport available manage to get clear...

Was there any effort to evac the poorer people in the area using buses, or military transport ?...
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

I haven't heard of any alternative transport for the poorer folk. That's part of the reason they opened up the Superdome.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I'm not one to avoid slamming the Bushites when it is due, but more of the immediate action stuff in this case would be a state or local call... did they try anything like that ? if they didn't have the assets did they ask for them and were turned down ?

I was also attempting to address the whole 'what's important' thing - tying up all our resources in the Iraq War, and basically ignoring our homeland.
And the whole structure of our society that allows for the feeling of justification of violence as an outlet for pent up rage for the inequities of daily life during a crisis.
Maybe I'm biting off more than I can chew here, but if many who didn't or couldn't leave feel that braving the storm was par for their course, why wouldn't they behave like they were animals just set free by the destruction of their zoo?
Edit: referring to the craziest things being done by a small percentage.

911 could have been averted. The present disaster could have been much better handled.
But what seems to be important to 'them' is reaction, not prevention.
Adults don't seem to be running this country, only angry, dangerous children.

I'm sorry, I'm from the 24th Century, you see, and we've evolved beyond all such nonsense.

In the wrong time Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
Yep; those are the hard questions that must and will demand answers--preferably at the pointy end of impeachment proceedings. Send the heads which will roll down to the refugee camps for NO residents, so they can stick them on pikes.

Um.. are you agreeing in an angry sort of way, or are you being out there to be sarcastic?
I can't tell...

Angry beyond the capacity for rational thought Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:12 PM

SPINLAND

I'm agreeing in quite an angry sort of way. I would gladly take a trip down there, all the way from NY, for the sole purpose of urinating on said piked heads.

----
I can see you.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:17 PM

Hmmm...that's angry.

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:47 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm angry too. They should have had pallets of MREs and medical equipment and water-purifying equipment (not bottled water that costs a fortune but water purifying equipment that the military USED to use before KB&R got in the act) ready to go, staged in Texas. They should have made mandatory evacuation actually possible by commandeering buses, trains and planes and doing a house to house evacuation. They should have, and could have set up tent cities on SUNDAY out of harm's way.

I'm going to be real unpopular here, but do you all remember the hurricane that flattened Haiti and killed so many people? Well, that same hurricane hit Cuba full-force, and not a single life was lost. Don't tell me that we can't do what Cuba managed! That's just so much bullshit. The only thing that was missing here was the political will to spend the bucks.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:53 PM

SIMONWHO

Indeed you can plan for anything. However, the measure of how well you planned will only come when the worst case scenario you devised (safe in the knowledge that it would never occur) actually happens.

Take what happened in London after the July 7th bombings. The police, the rescue workers, the medics, the hospitals, the detectives and the other emergency services worked as one cohesive unit after the attacks because the government had a) envisioned something like this happening, b) worked out exactly what needed to happen, c) devised a plan that allocated resources and responsibilities, d) informed, trained and retrained those who would be part of that plan. The result? There was no mass panic, no scenes of chaos outside hospitals as the casualties came in too quickly and above all a sense that the authorities knew what they were doing.

Do you what the biggest complaint was about the governmental response to the bombings? That the helpline set up for people worried about relatives in London charged national call rates rather than being freephone.

Now I grant you, the bombings in London caused only a fraction of the damage that Katrina did to New Orleans. But nonetheless, the evidence is clear that the plans for this eventuality were appalling ill conceived. What's more, they are still obviously making things up as they go along, with no cohesive strategy in sight. You can do this but it costs more and you have to be prepared to commit large scale resources, something the government (and I use the phrase advisedly, as I have no idea whether this was the responsibility of local or national government agencies) is failing to do.

Hopefully this will cause a few more mayors, governors and even Presidents to think to themselves "I had better prepare for the worst case scenario." Because you never know when you might be facing it.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 3:59 PM

In my neck of the woods (western Massachusetts) when a winter storm is coming, they ready all the sanders, salters and plows, and start work as the first flake hits the ground. These guys are remarkable.
The government had DAYS to assemble a response to the hurricane, and DAYS to evacuate people, and billions of dollars at their beck and call.

Am I asking too much that they be able to follow guidelines and proceedures that the people they pay to come up with provide them with? Why even have reports and recommendations and such if they don't intend to use them?

Or is it a case of survival of the ones with the most means (no car=no good income=bad taxpayer=expendable humanity)?

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:02 PM

Your questioning of the budget and resource allocation is quite valid, I was not questioning that....

My only point is ( not being an American and only know a bit of your chains of command ) that most of the immediate assistance planning would have been done by state and local officals... if as I had asked the evacuation plan had serious flaws the question would then become why ?

A) They didn't think of it ( then the planners are to blame )

B) Didn't have the assets... once again the planners should have realized that much of the equipment needed was no longer there and the alert had to raised to bring what was required in. If the state and local officals didn't start calling for help until it was too late... then they are still at fault.

C) Help was asked for, but for whatever reason the request was not acted on...

This would be the case which would require heads to roll in your Federal government... Some might talk of " lost infrastructure " and " mobility problems " but if it was known the assets required were not in place they should have been moving long before the diaster in this case.

One thing I noticed while serving in my countrys military, when we exercised with your army, you never seemed to have any shortage of equipment... but even if some say it is all in Iraq... why aren't the guys who are here trying to do what they can with what they have ?

After all, even if they weren't accomplishing much... pictures of your forces doing anything on the ground would kill most of these questions... and maybe provide calm through example

So San Frans next ? inside two years maybe ?

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I'm going to be real unpopular here, but do you all remember the hurricane that flattened Haiti and killed so many people? Well, that same hurricane hit Cuba full-force, and not a single life was lost. Don't tell me that we can't do what Cuba managed! That's just so much bullshit. The only thing that was missing here was the political will to spend the bucks.

"Has it now become a crime to cherish life?"
Sorry, it seemed appropriate.

How can it be unpopular to raise cogent questions?

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:07 PM

MACBAKER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
No one expected this level of destruction. No one could plan for this!
What?
No one can plan for this? You have to be saying that out of emotion. Professional agencies with trained and funded staff can 'plan' for ANYTHING they are directed to plan for.

That is so naive, you should be embarrassed! Emotion? Sure, but backed by experts, not arm chair reactionaries!

No one can predict mother nature. No one can predict when and where a levy might fail. According to the Army Corps of Engineers, one of the sections that failed (that is causing the most flooding, BTW) was a newly worked section that is at the height they want the rest of the levy to be raised to. The water didn't top the lower sections of the levy, but came through breaks!!! The levy height wasn't an issue! The real issue was that it couldn't hold back the water that hit it, and it failed. It was inevitible that this would happen! Experts have predicted this for years, but none of these same experts ever predicted this level of destrution and flooding.

The city of New Orleans is built below sea level! Hello, where's the logic there? If we really wanted to avoid this, the city should have been shut down years ago and moved to higher ground. BTW, that's exactly what the government required of many towns in IL and MO to do, when they were flooded in the massive floods there a decade ago. The towns either moved and rebuilt up higher on the river bluffs, or they didn't get federal aid to rebuild!

Here's the problem with these levys around New Orleans! We could spend billions more, and it still won't help! Sure they hold back flood waters (at least until now), but because they exist, the Mississippi river no longer feeds silt to the natural bayous in the area, and the entire coast line in the area is eroding at approximately 75 square miles a year. Eventually, New Orleans would be a walled island! In fact, because of the surronding marshlands and bayous, it really is a walled island. New Orleans has been living on borrowed time for years. What no expert did predict, was that a level 4 or level 5 storm would do anywhere near this level of damage! Chrisisall, you sure as hell didn't know, and it's so easy for you to point fingers with 20/20 hind sight! None of the trained experts predicted an extreme situation this bad! None! All of the models they used predicted much less destrution! This storm moved much slower and was much bigger than any other recorded hurricane to hit the Gulf coast. No one predicted this, simply because they had no model to compare it to. FEMA's worst case scenario preperations were well below the actual damage that occured.
Again, wake up and smell the BS you are shoveling with this pointless blame game.

As for the moron expecting impeachment for this, you are just the worst kind of idiot without a clue!

Bush gets blamed for staying at his ranch for two days? Why? Do you think his intel and advisors couldn't do their jobs unless they are in the White House? Do you think phone calls to FEMA, the Coast Guard, and state and federal officials can't get made from his ranch any easier that they can be done from Washington? Are you really that dim? Fact, even if you do foolishly believe Bush just sat back at his ranch for days and did nothing, he still got back to Washington days before any congressmen did (both Republicans and Democrats).

Now, when the Bush blaming haters are done pointing fingers in another pathetic and impotent attempt to use this horrible disaster to push their own personal political agendas, while ignoring the reality of the real issues (life), please remember that lives have been shattered not because of politics, but because of a natural disaster, and remember to give to the charities that can help these people (The American Red Cross and the Salvation Army)!

In other words, quit bitching about what our government can do for us, but instead ask what we can do for our country (and our fellow Americans in need). Hmmmmm, that rings a bell, doesn't it!!!!!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
Chrisisall, you sure as hell didn't know, and it's so easy for you to point fingers with 20/20 hind sight! None of the trained experts predicted an extreme situation this bad! None!

I actually expected a lot more damage from the storm itself, and less in the way of flooding, if you want to know.
And I expected evacuation to be more or less complete.

Admittedly non-expert Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
please remember that lives have been shattered not because of politics, but because of a natural disaster,

My political agenda is that those in office do things effectivly, with a general regard for life. As the storm approached, I figured that things that needed to be done were already in play. Why do people make excuses for ineptitude?
My spelling is very bad, I should not edit books. The Bush administration is bad at keeping Americans safe, they should not be running this country. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with demanding that our leaders do a GOOD JOB.
How can one even pretend to be even somewhat objective, and say everything that could be done here was?
And if it's me that's being unreasonable and 'blind' on this thread, why all the anger? Why even answer me on anything? Just dismiss me and anyone who agrees that there's something wrong here as mentally unstable, and ignore us?

Or is there some part of you that sees where we might be right, and this scares you?

(?)Chrisisall

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Friday, September 2, 2005 5:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Mac, I'll repost here what I posted in the Katrina thread-

Quote:
This was published on Monday, but it was anticipated well before Katrina arrived.
Quote:
Flooding from Hurricane Katrina's Monday landfall could wreak catastrophe on New Orleans, overwhelming the city's water and sewage systems and leaving survivors in a bowl of toxic soup, a top hurricane expert said.

Some 25 feet of standing water was expected in many parts of the city -- almost twice the height of the average home -- and computer models suggest that more than 80 percent of buildings would be badly damaged or destroyed, said Ivor van Heerden, deputy director of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Center and director of the Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes in Baton Rouge.

Floodwaters from the east would carry toxic waste from the "Industrial Canal" area, nicknamed after the chemical plants there. From the west, floodwaters would flow through an industrial complex that includes refineries and chemical plants, said van Heerden, who has studied computer models about the impact of a strong hurricane for four years....

In New Orleans, which lies below sea level, gas and diesel tanks are all above ground for the same reason that bodies are buried above ground. In the event of a flood, "those tanks will start to float, shear their couplings, and we'll have the release of these rather volatile compounds," van Heerden added.

Because gasoline floats on water, "we could end up with some pretty severe and large -- area-wise -- fires."

"So, we're looking at a bowl full of highly contaminated water with contaminated air flowing around and, literally, very few places for anybody to go where they'll be safe."

"Imagine you're the poor person who decides not to evacuate: Your house will disintegrate around you. The best you'll be able to do is hang on to a light pole, and while you're hanging on, the fire ants from all the mounds -- of which there is two per yard on average -- will clamber up that same pole. And eventually, the fire ants will win."

The levees intended to protect the city vary in height, from as low as 10 feet above sea level to about 14 feet, he said. They too are vulnerable because they are made of earth, he said.

Previous studies have suggested a catastrophic toll in lives and property if a major hurricane were to hit the New Orleans area, where about 1.3 million people live.

"...You're going to have enormous waves develop on that lake (Pontchartrain), especially with as much as 14 hours of hurricane-force winds," he said. Those waves will erode the levees, raising the possibility of their collapse, he said.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:12 PM

Well, here is another few questions raised and some answered......

From this story : http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/18295762-44D7-4CA0-A409-5A94B24
0DC68.htm

" Flooded city hospitals had no electricity and critically ill patients were dying because they no longer had access to oxygen, insulin or other medicines. "

So I'm reading that when the evac order was given, they didn't evac all the patients they could from the area hospitals to both get them to safety as well as clear beds which they suspected at that point would be needed...

Mind you it seems some US politicians have an entirely different focus:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

It seems the citizens of Louisiana are this years Iraqis.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:18 PM

MACBAKER
You are mistaken in many of your comments, some of which fly in the face of reason. (Could you be a paid shill?) The ones complaining are those on the scene:
-------------
'Terry Ebbert, chief of Homeland Security for New Orleans -- complained that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was not offering enough help: "This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace," he said. "FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans." '
(Washington Times today.)
------------
Further, you said, "No one expected this level of destruction." But it was detailed, DETAILED, at least a day before the event on several weather sites, so surely people in a position to take action knew it. One notable character knew about the impending destruction the preceding THURSDAY, so there are no excuses other than incredible stupidity at the top.

The time to complain about lack of political leadership is NOW, before the bastards have a chance to think up some phony excuse and spin it to the people. Heads need to roll, starting at the top. GOLFING? PLAYING GUITAR? Grinning like a fool and standing up for a photo op with Druglord Dad and Captain Squirt? Or Rice buying thousand-dollar shoes yesterday, and then telling the people that every penny counts? And then the bitch lied about turning down other countries' offers of help. I saw this on MSNBC today.

Some of what you have said is unquestionably true, but it doesn't address the failed leadership of this country. I tried to phone my congressmen, but they're off -- you guessed it -- on a long holiday weekend. And you think their "leadership" doesn't need to be challenged RIGHT NOW?

ChrisIsAll, in my opinion, you're right on the money, as is SignyM.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:33 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You forgot that Cheney is (STILL) on vacation and that Condi couldn't make it to the Cabinet meeting because she was busy watching Spamalot and buying $1000 Ferragamo while people were drowning in New Orleans. www.gawker.com/news/condoleezza-rice/index.php

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:50 PM

Here are the basic facts as I see them:

1) Every politician/leader/police chief/head indian/whatever, knew that if New Orleans were hit by a major hurricane, they would be in terrible trouble. Never mind that they all had the "it can't happen here" attitude, they KNEW.

2) The Bush administration knew long in advance the hurricane was coming.

3) Many folks too poor to buy gas decided to sit it out. Because severe advance warnings were given, they ought to have realized many of them would die.

4) The Bush administration cut funding for improvements to the dikes, spending it instead on the illegal Iraq disaster.

5) The Guard, normally first responders to such an event, were dispersed to Iraq with too much of its equipment incl. helicopters.

6) The levees broke, AS PREDICTED, and we instantly lost New Orleans.

7) The President failed to act quickly enough, i.e., failed to recognize the immensity of the problem. (Either that or he cared more for his vacation and golf than dying blacks down south.) If he had delegated authority to the farcical Homeland Security, it was Bush's job to see that they acted quickly and effectively. This did not happen, and the onus is on Bush.

8) People are still dying by the score because of too-slow responses.

9) Politicians are ducking responsibility and this makes me very angry.

10) Just now I read that the cleanup job goes to....DICK CHENEY'S HALLIBURTON!

One final fact seems apparent:

11) If the people of the U.S. swallow this without seeing heads roll, there is absolutely no hope for the U.S.
====================================
Conjecture?:

I suspect the Bush administration also had the "can't happen here" mentality, and could not face the fact that it had happened, nor could they grasp the scope of it.

Some truckloads of supplies rolled into the area but were not permitted to unload. When the President showed up, sure enough, they rolled in for yet another photo op.

(Ps: SignyM, I agree with your edited comment, the one you posted first on your 17:59 retort.)

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Friday, September 2, 2005 6:58 PM

Cheney is not on vacation :

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1449294.htm

" Halliburton Stocks rise as Hurricane Katrina tears through New Orleans "

and no wonder, rumor has they will likely get some more big money contracts to build refugee camps, clear away wreckage, etc...

I would say the prince of darkness has had a pretty good day for himself.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:04 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
" Halliburton Stocks rise as Hurricane Katrina tears through New Orleans "

and no wonder, rumor has they will likely get some more big money contracts to build refugee camps, clear away wreckage, etc...

I would say the prince of darkness has had a pretty good day for himself.

... feasting on the flesh of the dead.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:19 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
In my neck of the woods (western Massachusetts) when a winter storm is coming, they ready all the sanders, salters and plows, and start work as the first flake hits the ground. These guys are remarkable.
The government had DAYS to assemble a response to the hurricane, and DAYS to evacuate people, and billions of dollars at their beck and call.

You make a good point. Here in Ohio in the hours before a major storm they are out pre-treating the roads. But its not the Federal Government thats doing it.

The evacuation and immediate aftermath were left in the hands of State and Local Authorities. Elsewhere in the country, far outside the storm's reach, the Federal Govt was prepared with stockpiled emergency supplies and Federal Aid. It took two full days to open the roads and gather the materials. The first aid began to arrive Wednesday but was met with violence.

The decision was made to mass the aid convoys and move them in with troops from neighboring states. If Local and State Authorities hadn't so badly screwed up the preparations and initial response, the Federal aid could have arrived sooner and been of greater immediate impact. I point to Mississippi and Alabama as an example. Both have a much better handle at the State and Local levels (mostly State, because the locals got leveled).

We shouldn't forget that thousands more could have and should have been evacuated in the hours before the storm. A flooded lot containing dozens if not hundreds of school buses is sitting right now just miles from the Superdome.

H

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:24 PM

"On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

MacBaker, the people "in charge" of this country are either incredibly stupid, or have some agenda that involves getting the mainstream media to largely ignore the hurricane disaster. In either case, this apparent INCOMPETENCE must be discussed now, and the price must be paid.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:26 PM

Rue,

Careful what you say:

"It is reported that...hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive."

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hero- As I understand it, the governors of both LA and MS requested Federal assistance (troops) on SUNDAY night, even before landfall. As far as I know, the request wasn't acted on for three full days.

You, Geezer, Mac and the rest of the ijits- Will you PLEASE stop defending the indefensible???

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:04 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
"It is reported that...hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive."

somehow I don't picture them having the same lip-smacking feast as Cheney.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hero- As I understand it, the governors of both LA and MS requested Federal assistance (troops) on SUNDAY night, even before landfall. As far as I know, the request wasn't acted on for three full days.

You, Geezer, Mac and the rest of the ijits- Will you PLEASE stop defending the indefensible???

Hey, I would have said Hero had a point....

depending on when the local authoritys began to ask for help. If you are right, and it was Sunday... then they are all to blame.

The city government for a lack of planning in getting the people out, and perhaps in other respects as well...

The State for failing to bring in addition personnel and equipment BEFORE the storm hit

and the Bushites for not responding to the request for help in a timely manner...

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 2:42 AM

CITIZEN

My knowledge of the Hurricane disaster is a little sketchy at best, I've had a lot on this week, so have only managed to catchy a few reports on BBC and C4 News.

As far as I can tell the repsonce was poorly organised, and even if that is down to local authorities Bush shares the blame.
Can I also make the point that many wanted Clinton Impeached for sleeping with an intern, what does Bush get if his administration is responcible for thousands of death due to his incompetence?

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 3:54 AM

JACQUI

This may make me unpopular, but...

Quote:

Mind you it seems some US politicians have an entirely different focus:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

It seems the citizens of Louisiana are this years Iraqis.

If I read the newspapers correctly...

Seven year old girls and eight year old boys are being RAPED and MURDERED.

If this is the case, I say AIM WELL and TRUE.

There is no justification for that. Looting so that you can eat and survive, yes, but all the other atrocities...

It's not acceptable.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Lynch- And using 9-11 to promote the Iraq invasion is... what?? Respectful? Honorable? Sensitive? Wow. You have NO idea what I edited out.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:20 AM

EVILMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That's almost funny if it weren't so sad.
Did looting and rape occur in Indonesia after the tsunami? Or did they try to help each other?

Yes to both actually. I know this isn't the popular view, but people do some pretty horrible things without ever being Americans.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:58 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And you Bush fans are lookin' stupider and sorrier by the minute.

How much does it take to see that this administration is KILLING US (LITERALLY as well)?

Chrisisall

That is a disgusting cheap shot and just plain wrong.

Do you have any sense at all? Or even a sense of shame?

Prostituting others misery for your own petty political hackery is just the sort of vile behavior I've come to expect on FFF.net RWED.

Andrew Lynch

I search out Chris’ posts because I find them to be typically very thoughtful. Certainly he’s quite an anti-capitalist liberal, but usually a smart guy. I’m not sure what has caused this lapse of judgment (it is a very emotional issue for many), but we all have times when we say stupid things.

As far as what has happened in New Orleans, it has a lot to do with the lack of New Orleans public order, and the federal government waited too long to respond, probably because they expected, rightly so, for New Orleans to respond. The break down occurred with New Orleans, not the federal government. And not that it matters, but for Liberals information, both New Orleans’ Mayor and Louisiana’s governor are Democrats. Certainly more should have could have been done by them.

But I don’t want to point fingers here, because the truth is that this was a disaster waiting to happen, not because of all the malicious idiotic political bullshit Liberals are throwing around, but simply because New Orleans is, geographically, sitting in a time bomb, that finally went off. The damn city sits on the coast, BELOW sea level, surrounded on all three sides by major bodies of water. It was simply a matter of time, before something like this happened. It has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Iraq or Bush’s environmental policies.

To claim that it is all Bush’s fault or that Americans are the scourge of the earth (as the mantra goes) when New Orleans gets flooded after a hurricane is a degree of political stupidity I don’t even know how to address. It belies so many far, far more pertinent causes.

It’s a terrible disaster, but Americans, as always, have responded with billions of dollars in care and concern. Certainly New Orleans has shown us a way not to approach the public order follow a major disaster, so hopefully it will be a learning experience, because this won’t be the last. Los Angeles, as always, is certainly on the verge of another quake, and perhaps more relevant is Memphis, which sits on a not widely known fault. When that fault goes, Memphis, much like New Orleans, will probably not be ready for such a disaster. And god forbid what is going to happen in Wyoming at some point. Natural disasters happen all the time. We could have been more prepared for this one, but we are aware of it now, so things will start moving forward again.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That's almost funny if it weren't so sad.
Did looting and rape occur in Indonesia after the tsunami? Or did they try to help each other?

Yes to both actually. I know this isn't the popular view, but people do some pretty horrible things without ever being Americans.

Yeah but I think his point was he thought Americans were better than all that...

And he thought wrong obviously

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The break down occurred with New Orleans, not the federal government. And not that it matters, but for Liberals information, both New Orleans’ Mayor and Louisiana’s governor are Democrats. Certainly more should have could have been done by them.

I would agree with your statement there...

except some people are posting that both the city and state governments requested assistance on Sunday....... before the storm hit......... and it appears no action was taken

As I have said before, everyone dropped the ball horribly. If local officals started calling for help on Sunday, wouldn't you agree ?

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 6:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There is one other item that I'm going to research. I have information that the New Orleans emergency managment was actually contracted out by Department of Homeland Security to Innovative Emergency Managment (IEM). I don't quite see how that would work- it's possible that DHS just contracted out the planning, not the implementation. When time permits, I'll look into it.

Response lapsed all the way around. But DAYS after the first levees broke and even more DAYS after the governors called for Federal help (in the line of troops, as I understand) Bush went golfing and attended McCain's b'day party in AZ and went for a photo op in San Diego to commemorate WWII. So, see my signature...

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There is one other item that I'm going to research. I have information that the New Orleans emergency managment was actually contracted out by Department of Homeland Security to Innovative Emergency Managment (IEM). I don't quite see how that would work- it's possible that DHS just contracted out the planning, not the implementation. When time permits, I'll look into it.

Response lapsed all the way around. But DAYS after the first levees broke and even more DAYS after the governors called for Federal help (in the line of troops, as I understand) Bush went golfing and attended McCain's b'day party in AZ and went for a photo op in San Diego to commemorate WWI. So, see my signature...

Please don't think they give a shit.

Reforger was suppose to move several divisions worth of troops all the way to Europe in less than a week...

But in seems the US can't move them across their own country in the same timeframe ???

a little strange, no doubt

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not sure what has caused this lapse of judgment (it is a very emotional issue for many), but we all have times when we say stupid things.

If there was a lightning storm coming where I live, and one of the little kids who was playing on the big common lawn was left outside, I wouldn't wait for a request of any kind from anyone; I'd go get the kid, and worry about whose job it is to look after the child later.

They screwed up on every level as far as I can tell, and since I'm trained to look to my superiors for the nodd, I go to the top for life and death deals.
If assistance was not requested, how did that go un-noticed by the feds? If it was requested, and not sent, it falls on the feds. If they did all they could, then the feds have no clue, and should have.

I am way more harsh on the American government than maybe I should be. I grew up with Truth, Justice, etc., and I really expect it all the time from the government of my country, I guess that's a little unreasonable.

Thanks for posting, I really want to hear all sides on an issue, and as always, you have made me reconsider my thinking.
But I still can't see where the Bush administration is off the hook no matter what happens...

I mean I could just leave that little kid out in the lightning storm. Chances are he'll be okay. Not my responsibility, anyhow.

If I can make a difference it damn well IS my responsibility Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 7:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well before the hurricane hit, meteorologists were predicting a 25 - 30 ft storm surge, overtopping the levees by 10 - 15 ft. What were the people 'in charge' thinking was going to happen with that? That somehow the city would not be flooded?

But the problem with flooding in THAT geography is that it is completely different from the standard hurricane scenario. It makes even a devastating hurricane strategy irrelevant.

With a hurricane, once it has blown over and the storm surge has passed (in a matter of hours), people can shelter in the wreckage. There is no immediate need to move them en masse and find them an alternate place to stay. And rescue/recovery/repair efforts are mounted from the ground - with front loaders, chain-saws, linesmen working their way through the debris.

With flooding as has happened in other areas, it generally comes from one side (a river) and people can escape to higher ground by going the other way.

In NO, there was no higher ground. And an entire city's population had/has to be relocated. And all efforts (after the fact) have to be mounted from water by boat, or from the air.

That makes the situation entirely different from a hurricane OR flood scenario. And the response should have been tailored to meet the need.

If they had been prepared for the surge they would have been prepared for levee failure. But events prove they were completely unprepared for anything.

My cynical side says national preparation went something like this - well, if it hits Florida, Jeb can take the photo op. But there's no Republican opportunity in Louisiana.

Remember, this is the same administration that wrote off an entire state (California) to let their buddies price-gouge on electricity. Does anybody really think that politics plays no role?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Bush went golfing and attended McCain's b'day party in AZ and went for a photo op in San Diego to commemorate WWI. So, see my signature...

Please don't think they give a shit.

But he was crying on the inside...

Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 7:17 AM