The violence and looting of New Orleans: what does that tell... by chrisisall

FEMA was, about a year ago, put under Homeland Security. FEMA's top personnel (the ones who could think) abandoned the org, leaving Chertoff over everyone. Watching Chertoff's lies today (Chertoff said it was two disasters, both of which were never planned for, but that is a LIE) and attempted passing of the buck without naming Bush as being ultimately culpable was quite revealing as to the lack of spine of our leaders.

FEMA will now become once again independent. (It would seem there's far too much government and none of it knows what to do in a crisis.)

To CONFIRM, I have a pdf file of Governor Blanco's signed request directly specifically to Bush dated 28 August 2005, requesting massive aid. Repeat, this request is proven and documented FACT, not speculation.

Also today, a military spokesman pointed out that it took until today for the government to realize the immensity of the disaster. Early last week I wrote on this forum of the need for 100,000 Guard and soldiers. Only today, Saturday, we hear there are now 70,000 being sent. The simple truth is that the government not only continues to lie, they're awfully stupid.

The only thing worse than this country's failed leadership -- Republicans and Democrats -- are shitheads like Andrew Lynch who act like shills paid to try to make the worthless leadership of this country look good.

ANDREW LYNCH, go away. You are a complete moron.

----------------

Also, backing up my statements yesterday that Rice lied, reports today were heard that yes, all the countries who offered aid (except ISRAEL, which has offered NOTHING) were in fact turned down because it was "policy." That is what Bush ought to have overridden immediately, but no, he was strummin' his guitar and playing golf.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not sure what has caused this lapse of judgment (it is a very emotional issue for many), but we all have times when we say stupid things.
If there was a lightning storm coming where I live, and one of the little kids who was playing on the big common lawn was left outside, I wouldn't wait for a request of any kind from anyone; I'd go get the kid, and worry about whose job it is to look after the child later.

And I think your anger is understandable. I’m not sure that I think the accusation that Bush is out to kill Americans very astute, but I sympathize with your anguish, in any event. I just wish you could spread it out a little. Focusing on Bush or even the federal government is not where the answer lies.

There was probably a lot of dropping the ball, on all sides, and an intelligent mind can feel that the federal government was more responsible then the state governments. These are usually the minds that wish to eliminate federalism and make us all dependent on a single all powerful government. I’m not one of those, and I don’t think the Constitution is either.

New Orleans is a city within a state, and many people in Louisiana would probably take some offense at being labeled a “common lawn” of the federal government. One of those responsibilities of statehood is the maintenance of law and order within the state and infrastructure. To suggest that Louisiana is innocent because they requested aid form the federal government is to suggest that it is the federal government’s responsibility to police Louisiana, and that’s not true. The federal government was prepared to send the aid they send to all other states with disaster areas. What makes Louisiana so special that their government can sit on its haunches and do nothing about the potential of major natural disasters so that the federal government should have to send the 82nd Airborne to fix a problem that was the responsibility of Louisiana? The fault lies squarely on Louisiana and New Orleans governments for dropping the ball first and foremost. The worst that can be said about the federal side is that they could have acted faster.

Bush is not responsible because one of those states did not do their job in maintaining order or preparing wisely for the well known possibility of major natural disasters. Certainly the federal government should send timely aid, but hinging your criticism on that is at best short sighted. I have no problem if one wishes to criticism the federal government for not acting fast enough. In disasters, aid is always long-time coming no matter how fast it gets there, and how late it is often directly proportional to the scale of the devastation. After the disaster has occured is the wrong time to suddenly start being concerned with whose fault it is, when you didn't bother to prepare for it begin with. In my mind, one has no call to criticize Bush or the federal government if they fail to completely criticize the state and city governments upon whom laid direct responsibility for making sure this didn't happen.

The state’s rights issue isn’t going to be solved today, and the Bush-haters are always going to be fanatical, irrelevant and employ tactless unfounded criticism on Bush. If the federal government didn’t act fast enough, and claiming that Bush went golfing is an asinine comment not evidence of the federal government’s sluggishness, then I think that is a valid source of criticism. However why didn’t the state and city governments upgrade dykes that they knew were rated no higher then a category 3? In my mind, this is the real critical question, not whether Bush went golfing. Did they feel that there would never again be a category 4 or 5 Hurricane? Or were they just less concerned for those who might die if the dykes broke then they should have been? They took a gamble. They didn’t take out insurance when they could have and probably used that money for more immediate concerns which were probably quite noble in their way, but filling in potholes or raising state entitlement checks is somehow not quite as important today as it once may have seemed.

As I said, hopefully this will be a learning experience. Maybe some other cities in disaster prone regions will take some call from this and start reinforcing their defenses.

And this is a very emotional issue. So I hope we can all go back to being friends afterward.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 10:29 AM

EMBERS

I will say that if a level 4-5 hurricane was getting ready to hit, say the President's brother, then the reponse might have been a whole lot different.

Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the USA, and I personally think that the slow response had a lot to do with a Republican President ignoring the call for help from a Democrat Governor...

and I think Geo W is belated realizing that it is biting him in the @ss... you can't be President of only some of the people.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 11:14 AM

SIMONWHO

I did enjoy seeing Bush lining up at least two media friendly snapshots of him hugging an attractive female survivor (white, of course), the same shot as he used to make himself look sensitive and caring in the run up to the last election.

Frankly, if the Democrats don't start to make some real political capital out of this failure, they deserve to be kept out of power. Americans respect leaders who stab their opponents in the back and the stomach.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 11:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
However why didn’t the state and city governments upgrade dykes that they knew were rated no higher then a category 3?

Because as an interstate waterway, the Federal government and specifically the Army Corps of Engineers has authority. And, if you had read my previous posts, you would know that Bush had specifcially taken funding away from the levee-building effort to pay for the stupid feckless war in Iraq. And of course the Louisiana National Guard (and all it's equipment) is in the same place. How is THAT not the Federal government's fault?

So- can you please leave the discussion to people who actually give a crap? And by the way- I don't count callous synchophants among my friends.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 11:54 AM

What really gets me is that despite the fact that Dubya obviously don't care all that much, images of him hugging a few people seems to convince people he does care.

Seems like he could chuck a grenade into a nursery and get away with it if he kissed a baby afterwards...

A cute white one on national tv, of course...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
I will say that if a level 4-5 hurricane was getting ready to hit, say the President's brother, then the reponse might have been a whole lot different.

Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the USA, and I personally think that the slow response had a lot to do with a Republican President ignoring the call for help from a Democrat Governor....

Then I will say that you are probably a nutbar.

And I’ll say something else too. I had forgotten about federal assistance to major infrastructure projects. The federal government certainly had some say in these matters. I’m not sure how much, but enough to make me think that federal government does share some blame in not upgrading the dykes.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 1:45 PM

EMBERS

as I write I'm listening to an expert who personally had been part of a task force who had told
FEMA
Corp of Engineers
AND the White House that this exact situation was a real possibility.
The recommendations were ignored for strengthening the levys...
but what he couldn't believe is that by all the scenerios discussed in high-level goverment plans,
helicopters, National Guard, and major help should have been in place last Tuesday....
the delay between Tuesday and Friday is what is unforgivable.
You may think I'm a nutbar for believing it might be political.
I can't imagine what else it could have been.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
as I write I'm listening to an expert who personally had been part of a task force who had told
FEMA
Corp of Engineers
AND the White House that this exact situation was a real possibility.
The recommendations were ignored for strengthening the levys...
but what he couldn't believe is that by all the scenerios discussed in high-level goverment plans,
helicopters, National Guard, and major help should have been in place last Tuesday....
the delay between Tuesday and Friday is what is unforgivable.
You may think I'm a nutbar for believing it might be political.
I can't imagine what else it could have been.

Bureaucratic? Governments, especially big ones, can be slow things.

And your presumption that Bush would intentionally not respond to a major disaster because relief was requisitioned from a Democrat is political, on your side, not Bush’s. You’re the one making statements, purely for political gain, like many of your Left-wing brethren in this thread. Claiming that Bush was on vacation or that he wouldn’t send aid because it came from Democrats are purely and blatantly political statements designed to do nothing more then arraign Bush’s personal character.

Your political message: ‘Bush is a spiteful person who would let people die because he doesn’t like Democrats.’ So let’s all hate Bush.

‘Bush goes on vacation during a disaster because he doesn’t care.’ (A commonly used political ploy.) So let’s all hate Bush.

In reality, neither statement is true. These are political messages. Faces that you put on something. Half-truths and misrepresentations of the facts in order to push a certain political agenda. That’s being political. And the Left has been at full throttle on this kind of stuff with regards to the president. It makes it very difficult to assess what is actually going on, because you’re constantly trying to weed through someone’s political innuendo to get at any real facts. The Right is the same way. Where the Left attacks the Right defends. And neither is telling you the whole story.

The truth be told I have no idea who is to blame or how bad it is in New Orleans, because I can’t rely on any of the information that is coming to me. And my gut response is to immediately dismiss anything coming from someone with a blatant political message as unreliable, which right now seems to be everybody.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 3:32 PM

EMBERS

there is no doubt that Geo W was on vacation:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9134533/
it was well publicized

and from where I sat the response of the US to the tsunami was WAY faster than the response to New Orleans

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 3:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Folks, everybody ...

Please remeber this is Finn you are dealing with, and this is just another one of Finn's tactics (along with using minority sources and making up expertise and data).

It's not worth your time to try and discuss facts with Finn.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
there is no doubt that Geo W was on vacation:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9134533/
it was well publicized

It doesn’t matter. No one doubts that he was on vacation. The political part is the innuendo that because he was on vacation during a national crisis that he doesn’t care. This is a political trick. All presidents go on vacations, but doing so does not mean that he doesn’t care or that he is in any way disconnected from what is going on. It’s an image, a screenshot, a face that you paint on the issues. This is a spurious assumption used as a political attack.

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
and from where I sat the response of the US to the tsunami was WAY faster than the response to New Orleans

I doubt it. But it’s irrelevant anyway. It’s like comparing apples to oranges.

More personal attacks. Innuendo; half truths, misrepresentation . . . in order to paint something a certain way. Politics. This time directed at me, instead of the president, but it's all the same.

|
V

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Please remeber this is Finn you are dealing with, and this is just another one of Finn's tactics (along with using minority sources and making up expertise and data).

It's not worth your time to try and discuss facts with Finn.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 4:24 PM

JACQUI

Because I think this sums it up nicely, in words much wiser than my own...

Dear Mr Bush, New Orleans parliament and other responsible bodies...

REDEMPTION DAY.

I've wept for those who've suffered long.
But how I weep for those who've gone into rooms of grief and questioned wrong...
but keep on killing.

It's in the soul to feel such things, but weak to watch without speaking.
Oh, what mercy sadness brings, if God be willing.
There's a train that's headed straight for Heaven's gate and on the way, child and man and woman wait, watch and wait.
For redemption day.

Fire rages in the streets and swallows everything it meets.
It's just an image often seen on television.
Come leaders, come you men of great,
let us hear you pontificate.
Your many virtues laid to waste and we aren't listening.

What do you have for us today?
Throw us a bone, but save the plate.
On why we wated 'till so late,
was there no oil to excavate?
No riches in trade for the fate of every person who died in hate?
Throw us a bone, you men of great.

There is a train that's heading straight for Heaven's gate, and on the way child and man and woman wait, watch and wait.
For redemption day.
It's buried in the countryside, it's exploding in the shells of night, it's everywhere a baby cries.
Freedom.

- Sheryl Crow.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 4:37 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn,
You're an ass.

Quote:
because I can’t rely on any of the information that is coming to me. And my gut response is to immediately dismiss anything coming from someone with a blatant political message as unreliable, which right now seems to be everybody.

THIS IS A PERSONAL ATTACK DIRECTED AT EVERYBODY HERE. SO HERE'S A HINT - DON'T GO AWAY MAD - JUST GO AWAY.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Finn,
You're an ass.

Yeah, this cleared everything up. You’re a perfectly reliable source. Thanks for proving my point.

It’s not a personal attack. It can’t be a personal attack because “everybody” isn’t personal. It’s general. And it’s directed at more then just people here, but at people in the news, congress and the president. Sometimes, I feel like the information that I get is just not clear no matter whom it comes from, and I’m not sure who to believe. And I don’t think I’m the only one, either. Except for those people who have already picked out their witch to burn, I don’t think anyone has a clear idea of who and how exactly the ball was dropped. I have my ideas, but I’m beginning to doubt whether they are even right, because there is so much that I don’t know, at this point. So I’m trying to back off a little from my previous statements, because I’m not sure yet if they are all true.

Also I’m not going anywhere. So get used to it or get out yourself. Those are your options.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not sure that I think the accusation that Bush is out to kill Americans very astute, but I sympathize with your anguish, in any event. I just wish you could spread it out a little.

Chrisisall is a little cooler now.
Yes, the blame can be (and should be) spread out a little more widely. And I do think at this point it might have happened as badly no matter who was in office ( although I still somehow doubt it...); it's just that Bush himself doesn't ever seem genuine. Bush, the man, is a jerk, plain and simple. Not evil, just a political android, cold and badly wired.
Those who could have made it easier on the victims, and didn't should all be burned (figurativly) for this, no matter Republican or Democrat.
And anyone who would excuse themselves with "Well, we had no way of knowing" should be sent down there to deal with the bodies of the children as a 'learning experience'.

Quote:

And this is a very emotional issue. So I hope we can all go back to being friends afterward.

That is my hope as well.
But please ask yourself why so many thoughtful people on this board seem to hate Bush and his army of flunkies so intensly, it's not just because he's a Republican.( Okay, maybe for some, just not the majority)

Deeds, not words Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So I’m trying to back off a little from my previous statements, because I’m not sure yet if they are all true.

I've had to do that a few times, myself.
But my final analysis stands: Bush doesn't really give a shit.

Sad, but true Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

And the Oscar goes to...

Disgusted Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:46 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually, I know why Bush bobbled this so badly- It was a clever ploy to distract attention from Camp Casey and Cindy Sheehan. And, I must say it worked LIKE A CHARM! DAMN that guy is smart!

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW Rue does his (her?) homework. But after you've applied your superior investigating powers as to why the Federal government delayed its response for at least three days, will you please let us know? Because frankly, I can't think of ONE SINGLE GOOD REASON WHY... but lots and lots of bad ones.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 5:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Finn, please note there are facts in here so you don't need to concern yourself with this post.

Interesting FEMA site: http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm

Informative NOAA site from whence I gleaned these names: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastall.shtml
allison fran danny georges irene floyd barry lili edouard frances ivan jeanne mitch frances

Didn't search all of the names, someone with more time can do that. Here are my initial results:

ALLISON
http://www.ncfrpc.org/Publications/SRPP/NCFRPC%20SRPP%20Emergency%20Pr
eparedness.pdf In just 20 minutes Saturday morning, March 13, 1993, north central Florida coastal residents went from just another spring storm to the Storm of the Century. On March 13th, President Clinton declared Florida a disaster area.

FRAN
http://teams.fema.gov/dmat/resource/hurricane_fran.html
On Wednesday, 05-SEP-96 as Hurricane Fran, a dangerous category 3 hurricane with 115 MPH winds, began its assault upon the North and South Carolina coast, the DHHS Office of Emergency Preparedness placed the United States Public Health Service Disaster Medical Assistance Team (PHS-1 DMAT) on ALERT status. Within 9 hours, 48 PHS-1 DMAT members had stated that they would be available to deploy.

On Thursday, 06-SEP-96 at 1700H, the PHS-1 DMAT was notified by the DHHS Office of Emergency Preparedness that FEMA had just tasked them with a mission assignment of pre-deploying three DMAT's to an unknown destination in one of the Carolinas

DANNY
http://www.nwfdailynews.com/today/hurr2half.html
Fourth on the list was Hurricane Danny, which formed on July 16. The Category 1 storm with winds up to 80 mph caused an estimated $100 million in damage, mostly from flooding in Alabama and North Carolina (on July 24).
http://www.hudclips.org/sub_nonhud/cgi/nph-brs.cgi?d=MLET&s1=97-$%5Bno
%5D&op1=AND&SECT1=TXTHLB&SECT5=MLET&p=1&r=17&f=G
The President's declaration of a major disaster area for Alabama, resulting
from storm damage associated with Hurricane Danny, was signed on July 25,
1997 and includes Baldwin, Choctaw and Mobile counties.

GEORGES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Georges
Hurricane Georges at landfall on September 28
http://www.advancedrt.com/articles/rtarticles/TOWNCOPES.html
Three coastal Mississippi counties--Hancock, Harrison and Jackson--were the hardest hit, with more than 87 people being housed in shelters and nearly 1,000 U.S. National Guard troops called in to aid in the recovery effort after the area received federal disaster assistance beginning September 28.

And our "President" Bush's response to Florida hurricanes:
FRANCES (2004)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Frances
{I}n Florida on September 1 Governor Jeb Bush declared a state of emergency, Kennedy Space Center closed down, and evacuations of 500,000 people were initially ordered.
It remained stable at category 2 with 105 mph (170 km/h) maximum sustained winds, though, and battered the east coast of Florida for most of September 4. At 11pm, the western edge of Frances's eyewall began moving onshore.
http://english1.people.com.cn/200409/06/eng20040906_156037.html
US President George W. Bush on Saturday (Sept 4) declared Florida a major disaster area as massive Hurricane Frances slowly bore down the southern US state.

Please note that "President" Bush declared Florida a national disaster area BEFORE the hurricane made landfall.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 6:02 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
And this is a very emotional issue. So I hope we can all go back to being friends afterward.

No excuses Finn, not because you claim to be overwhelemed by emotion or because you condemn people by category, not by name.
You never were, are not, and never will be, a friend, not to me, and not to the people on this board who come to honestly discuss events. Why you have not (yet) been kicked off as a troll I can't fathom.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 7:39 PM

HKCAVALIER

Rue, thank you. You're clarity in the face of these catastrophies, never fails to amaze me. You've helped me so many times to see what needs to be seen, and not just me, but everyone who has visited this forum for the past two (three?) years. This is great work, you're doing. I'm grateful to have gotten the chance to know you in this crazy impersonal electronic way that we get to share our thoughts over the internet. You ever get out to Seattle, I hope you'll let me buy you dinner at least. Thanks, again.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 7:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quote:
No excuses Finn, not because you claim to be overwhelemed by emotion or because you condemn people by category, not by name.
You never were, are not, and never will be, a friend, not to me, and not to the people on this board who come to honestly discuss events. Why you have not (yet) been kicked off as a troll I can't fathom.

This bothers me a bit. Is it possible to attack someone's position without attacking the man? I haven't kept up with Finn's posts long enough to know what makes you think he's a troll. From what I've been able to tell, his primary crime is disagreeing with you.

Quote:
The only thing worse than this country's failed leadership -- Republicans and Democrats -- are shitheads like Andrew Lynch who act like shills paid to try to make the worthless leadership of this country look good.

ANDREW LYNCH, go away. You are a complete moron.

I don't agree with Andrew's viewpoints, and think he was rather rude to our forums, but I think that the reaction was acidic and unnecessary, most particularly in that it might serve to justify his position to some. Just explain why you think he's wrong. No need to hurl names.

I've always been proud that the political forums on FFF.net need little moderation. We've usually been fair at controlling ourselves.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 9:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW- to address the original question of the forum. After the tsunami, most people fell into the role of victim- acting as individuals, trying to save their own lives and the lives of their families by scraping together some survival basics out of the rubble and waiting for help. A few took the opportunity to loot, scavenge, and even kidnap lost and disoriented children into the sex slave trade. A few took the leadership role, and organized collective activity (such as defining latrine areas or searching house to house). Within any population, you will find people at both ends of the bell curve and the vast majority in the middle. What defines the USA mindset/ ethics is not so how ordinary people behave in a disaster (for which they have no practiced response) but what happens every single day. Our violent crime rate and extreme separation between the weatlhy and the poor says a lot more than the actions of a few looters.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Our violent crime rate and extreme separation between the weatlhy and the poor says a lot more than the actions of a few looters.

Agreed. I was in somewhat of an emotional state when I started this thread, and ended up learning much from it, not the least of which was who is really responsible for the lack of proper attention in this matter.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:15 AM

Rue,

Thanks for the great links to leaders taking action IMMEDIATELY.

Conerning Finn, you said,
"You never were, are not, and never will be, a friend, not to me...."

I concur wholeheartedly. Finn is worse than an asshole, like Andrew Lynch, they are todies to the President, paid or compensated to overlook what anyone with eyes can see for themselves. The President is a total failure, and that's not a political statement. Those turds need to be either ignored, or banned from this forum. They are NOT helping.

Also, here's the proof Chertoff is a lying whore:

"- The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level -- more than eight feet below in places -- so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it. Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States...."

Sounds like a report from a current news cast, doesn`t it? Except it is from a piece by "National Geographic" from 11 months ago.

ELEVEN MONTHS AGO!

Anthony, if you don't know -- didn't know over a week ago -- that the President and all his men failed, no explanation of mine can enlighten you why these turds deserve the names I call them. It IS personal, and we need to expose such traitors to this country. Yes, traitors. Anyone who supports the current crop of politicians is helping them along the path they have taken, away from the people and toward helping only themselves.

I observe I am far from alone in my sentiments.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:30 AM

Chrisisall,

To address your initial question, as others noted here, there will always be a criminal element, and disasters such as this one might have led law-abiding citizens to bust windows to get food or water for their families. But what struck me was the apparent lack of leadership within the confines of the "safe" areas, like in the dome. I may have missed it, but it seemed like chaos reigned without anyone or any group taking, or trying to take, any semblence of control. This does not speak well for this country, if leaders don't pop up as needed.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
and disasters such as this one might have led law-abiding citizens to bust windows to get food or water for their families.

That's just survival to me. I was awe struck how nothing was done by our leaders to the point that gangs were raping, and helicopters were reporting being fired at. The Bush administration allowed a small chunk of Hell to materialize, and Bush was playing golf.

How sickening.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:57 AM

Chris, I agree it's just survival. I'd have done the same thing, I'm sure.

Condi Rice last week went to Broadway shows and went shopping, Bush played golf, and Chertoff continued to lie to Tim Russert, and dodge responsibility.

What boggles is the cutting of communications and short-wave jamming going on, as though no one wants any info getting out of there.

Best wishes to you.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:12 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And you Bush fans are lookin' stupider and sorrier by the minute.

Yeah...and that would be why I pretty much never come to these boards anymore.
_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Anthony, if you don't know -- didn't know over a week ago -- that the President and all his men failed, no explanation of mine can enlighten you why these turds deserve the names I call them. It IS personal, and we need to expose such traitors to this country. Yes, traitors. Anyone who supports the current crop of politicians is helping them along the path they have taken, away from the people and toward helping only themselves.

I observe I am far from alone in my sentiments.

So, just to be certain that I understand this correctly, everyone who believes the leadership failed during this crisis must also agree to call everyone else a turd, a shithead, and a traitor?

If I think that we can disagree with wrong people without calling them turds, shitheads, and traitors, does that make ME a turd, shithead, and traitor?

--Anthony (shithead in training?)

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:25 PM

The more I see your posts Ruxton the more I come to respect you (even if our opinions differ on certain issues).

For those still defending Bush:
Firstly let me start with an analagy. When London was attacked in July Tony Blair (and I'm not a great fan of Tony Blair) returned the same day to London. Did Bush end his holiday the same day, to lead his administration as he is supposed to?

If the emergency responce had been a farce in London, as quite frankly the responce to NO has been the British would have been baying for blood the very same day. So how can now be to early to demand answers from those responcible?

And quite frankly Bush IS responcible. If mistakes were made in his absence then he is responcible for not being there.
Why the hell wasn't he kicking people into gear from the moment the situation occured (ignoring for an instant that things should have been done sooner).

I see army personel (now they've finally managed to get there) making excuses as to why they weren't there sooner. It was not possible, so they say, yet journalists made it. Maybe the American Military are so incompetant they can't get to places that a civilian journalist can.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Chrisisall,

To address your initial question, as others noted here, there will always be a criminal element, and disasters such as this one might have led law-abiding citizens to bust windows to get food or water for their families. But what struck me was the apparent lack of leadership within the confines of the "safe" areas, like in the dome. I may have missed it, but it seemed like chaos reigned without anyone or any group taking, or trying to take, any semblence of control. This does not speak well for this country, if leaders don't pop up as needed.

Even in " safe areas " like Houston ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4214122.stm

If they cant get control there, out of the immediate mess......

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:52 PM

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:52 PM

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 1:04 PM

G1223

I look at the hurricane and see people dealing with ruin just like the people did in the past. This was a disaster foretold. The city was placed behind large mounds of dirt whcih would someday give. All it took was time. People thought we could somehow beat nature and now we have learned that we can only do that for so long.

Now as to the looting. It is human nature those that have and those that have not will clash what needs to be done is take care of the injured rebuild the city and move on.

Our culture has not led to this it. It is that culture that allows for some folks to rise above to the circumstances.There will always be those who steal kill and rape others. Yet another reason the death penalty works so well once caught and killed those that commit these crimes cannot do it again.

TANSTAAFL

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G1223:
Our culture has not led to this it. It is that culture that allows for some folks to rise above to the circumstances.There will always be those who steal kill and rape others. Yet another reason the death penalty works so well once caught and killed those that commit these crimes cannot do it again.

And after all the justice system is so infallible no innocent will be put to death while the guilty go free.
After all, no one can change.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 2:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

If I think that we can disagree with wrong people without calling them turds, s***heads, and traitors, does that make ME a turd, sh***ead, and traitor?

Whoah, ease up everyone.
AnthonyT, there are people who are wrong, and there are people, who by ineptitude or carelessness, get people KILLED. Some folks are gonna get real raw in the way they describe Bush, and I for one will not be bothered in the least by it, it IS personal, and it IS emotional.
I called Bush a political android, cold and badly wired. I think that's the nicest description you'll find on this board by Bush non-supporters. Just don't freak when the emotional level goes up, people are still dying.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G1223:
There will always be those who steal kill and rape others. Yet another reason the death penalty works so well once caught and killed those that commit these crimes cannot do it again.

First: yes.
Second: Huh? I'd like to see those statistics, please.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 2:52 PM

G1223

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

And after all the justice system is so infallible no innocent will be put to death while the guilty go free.
After all, no one can change

True people change. I am sure the man who rapes then kills a child feels very sorry and repentent when caught.Want to put a young family memeber where this sort can get at him? I know I do not.

Yes a man changes and not always for the better.

TANSTAAFL

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 3:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And you Bush fans are lookin' stupider and sorrier by the minute.

Yeah...and that would be why I pretty much never come to these boards anymore.

EDITED for dumass content.
I wouldn't even post on the RWED if it was all Bush-loving right wing hawkish fanatics. And likewise, I wouldn't be here if it was all Communist-Socialist left wing neo-utopiaists either.

EDITED for dumass content.

Tired of being diplomatic Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 3:04 PM

G1223

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by G1223:
First: yes.
Second: Huh? I'd like to see those statistics, please.

Chrisisall

Well a man put to death that is dead as a doornail has not gotten up and gone out and committed another crime.

Sorry the only person who has gotten up after dying might have been a myth. But I will leave Christ out of this.

TANSTAAFL

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 6:31 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And you Bush fans are lookin' stupider and sorrier by the minute.

Yeah...and that would be why I pretty much never come to these boards anymore.
If you ARE a Bush fan, why come here? Stay on the entertainment side of things. I'm not trying to be funny, really.
I wouldn't even post on the RWED if it was all Bush-loving right wing hawkish fanatics. And likewise, I wouldn't be here if it was all Communist-Socialist left wing neo-utopiaists either.

I did not single you out, however, if do you feel I was speaking to you, I'm sorry that a fellow FF fan is dumb enough to fall for Bush's line of crap.
Happy fantasies.

Tired of being diplomatic Chrisisall

Chris, hey, you should do a quick check of a person's posting record before you go off on 'em. InevitableB, is a post-bush supporter. He faught in Bush's war and came home very disillusioned. His story is pretty gritty and heartbreaking. I think coming to the board is painful to him on a personal level. Chris, check before you judge, amigo.

IB, I'm always glad to hear from you, no matter what the reason.

The situation in this country is so heartbreaking. As Rue posted:

Quote:
And our "President" Bush's response to Florida hurricanes:
FRANCES (2004)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Frances
{I}n Florida on September 1 Governor Jeb Bush declared a state of emergency, Kennedy Space Center closed down, and evacuations of 500,000 people were initially ordered.
It remained stable at category 2 with 105 mph (170 km/h) maximum sustained winds, though, and battered the east coast of Florida for most of September 4. At 11pm, the western edge of Frances's eyewall began moving onshore.
http://english1.people.com.cn/200409/06/eng20040906_156037.html
US President George W. Bush on Saturday (Sept 4) declared Florida a major disaster area as massive Hurricane Frances slowly bore down the southern US state.

Please note that "President" Bush declared Florida a national disaster area BEFORE the hurricane made landfall.

Folks, what happened this time? What happened?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 7:36 PM

BATMARLOWE

I was born in New Orleans.

For the first 23 years of my life I lived in the suburb of Metaire.

My family and many friends were still living there.

My familiy is safe and sound and all friends are accounted for except for two. They "should" be okay in terms of survival, but we just haven't heard from them yet. And the rest of us have been communicating through the internet.

Now then. Part of the problem is we felt we had dodged another bullet. Once Katrina went to the east, "those in charge" (city, parish, state, federal) thought New Orleans wasn't going to be much of a problem.

Then Katrina passed and we once again breathed the sigh of relief we had become accustomed to for the last 40 years.

Then the levee broke in three places.

So what happened was not anticipated if New Orleans actually SURVIVED a hurricane. I think this is why response was slower than it should have been.

I also think having FEMA relocated under Homeland Security was part of the problem.

I also think all those different levels of government thought some other agency was the one "in charge".

I also think that since this was America, "those in charge" felt confident we could handle something of this magnitude should it ever happen. After all, look at how well we were able to respond to other natural disasters around the globe in the past.

But I think the dirty little secret is that when you have a city the size of New Orleans and it is a bowl; and that bowl fills up in a matter of hours; then when it comes to handling that crisis; there is no such thing a "good" plan.

That being said there should have been a central command deployed and established as soon as possible.

All the pumps are underwater and inoperable. It's going to take a long time to rebuild the levee under the current conditions and build and deliver over-the-water pumps and purify the water so that it's not contaminated as it gets pumped out.

As soon at the water's pumped out we get the bodies out, bulldoze the irreperable stuctures and clean out the debris.

We also hope that during the years it takes to do this we survive the hurricane seasons of those years.

Then we decide what will or won't be rebuilt if at all.

By then the report of the inevitable congressional investigation will be out.

Then we can argue and point fingers.

Until then, let's donate. Let's mourn the dead and help the displaced. And not forget that New Orleans isn't the only place where lives and homes have been destroyed.

Let's also remember the reason why we're all on this site in the first place and use September 30th as chance to get our minds off this disaster for a couple of hours.

Just felt that as a native I had to chime in. If anybody else in this thread is from New Orleans or has friends and family there, I hope they are as safe and sound as my people. If not, you have my sincerest sympathies.

Keep flying.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 7:58 PM

I know this is really premature...

there is so much to do before anything like rebuilding should even be considered.........

but should New Orleans be rebuilt ??

or should it be rebuilt in the same place ??

they are saying that it will take six months or longer to get the water out, once the levees are repaired...then rebuild could start... so long term housing will have to be found for the people who escaped in any case...

there must be a better place to rebuild

somewhere above sea level, somewhere safer in the long term.....

either way this will be a huge investment, in money, in time, in blood... best to do it right, and be sure it can never happen again.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 9:12 PM

BATMARLOWE

If it ain't rebuilt in the same place, it ain't New Orleans.

I would hate to see my hometown and its culture eradicated.

But that doesn't mean your point isn't valid.

But what you're talking about is relocating New Orleans not rebuilding it. And you just can't do that. At least not culturally. New Orleans was founded in 1718 and through the centuries there evolved a culture unlike any in the country. That can't be recreated.

If we're not going to rebuild it where it is then we'll have to clean it out and knock down the levees and let it fill in. We can't leave this giant bowl there to become a breeding ground for mosquitoes and God knows what else.

We'll have to consider the impact on the areas south of New Orleans. Do we relocate those people and tear down and remove any place that's below sea level?

I suppose we could clear out enough acreage on the Northshore of Lake Ponchartrain to build a new city big enough to handle around a million people plus businesses and universities and a new stadium for the Saints. But it won't be New Orleans. It might be called that but it won't be New Orleans.

But maybe in long run it might still be more sensible and practical (back home we don't really do sensible and practicle very well) than putting resources into rebuilding it where it is and trying to protect it.

Then we re-draw the map of Louisiana.

Then we bring new meaning to the song "Do You Know What it Means to Miss New Orleans."

C'est la vie.

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Sunday, September 4, 2005 10:42 PM