So where is the opposition to Bush anyway ? by GinoBiffaroni

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Politics is an unfortunate companion of a representative democracy. If you can explain how to run one without politics, I'd be interested to hear.
At the risk of demonstrating my ignorance, I'd do away with the representative part, and have direct vote for all issues. You would have to pass a very basic test to show reading comprehension to register to vote. The vote would be relatively simple, since prolly fully 3/4 of the people would never vote for such large numbers of issues, so the count would be quick. And only interested parties would vote on things, so awareness of the issues should be high- that would be a plus also.

*braces for the comeback*

Chrisisall

I have given the question of what might be a better political system for Canada some thought...

Amongst my reading, I found the system the Swiss had to be the most interesting:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/bk/buku/buku2005/index.html

In this system they have what they call direct democracy where if the population gets pissed enough they can over-rule the government, if your up to it give it a read... referendums and recall votes are something else they use in an interesting way.

BTW It is easier to have them mail you the book explaining their system, which they do for free

The Swiss Confederation: a brief guide 2005 -

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/bk/order/index.html

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:57 PM

i am just so sick and tired of people hating PEOPLE. it's the stupid party system that's to blame for creating so much hatred. curse necessary evils!

of course i do own a shirt that says viva la reagan revolution . . . that looks just like one of those che shirts, BUT IT'S FUN!

you've got to forgive me! (my friend has one that says "we'll always have clinton" and we wear them on the same day!)

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:01 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
At the risk of demonstrating my ignorance, I'd do away with the representative part, and have direct vote for all issues. You would have to pass a very basic test to show reading comprehension to register to vote. The vote would be relatively simple, since prolly fully 3/4 of the people would never vote for such large numbers of issues, so the count would be quick. And only interested parties would vote on things, so awareness of the issues should be high- that would be a plus also.

*braces for the comeback*
Chrisisall

In theory, I'd agree with most of this, but the practical problems seem to be insurmountable.

Someone still has to decide the issues. This could be done, perhaps, by presenting a petition with enough signatures, but politics would be involved in getting enough interest to accumulate the required signatures.

There'd still have to be some sort of bureaucracy to accept the petition and hold the plebicite to determine if it could be enacted.

You'd also be giving control of the entire country to the most populous areas of the country. What if the folks in New York and California decided to make Montana a nuclear waste dump?

Thousands of pieces of legislation are passed by the Congress annually, not to mention those passed by state, county, and city governments. How much time do you have to become informed on each of these, without any help, while still earning a living?

Reading comprehension tests were one of the most common versions of the "Jim Crow" laws enacted in the South to disenfranchise blacks. I'm not sure that they would go over big.

I sympathize with your desire for a more representative form of government, but direct democracy is beyond the capabilities of anything larger than a small town. I'd be happy if more people actually paid attention to what was going on.

AP has a blurb about an email FEMA director Brown sent to his family and friends.
http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=567943

Regardless of my feeling about him, this phrase resonates with me:
"This country is devouring itself, the 24-hour news cycle is numbing our ability to think for ourselves."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:03 PM

i'm 17!
*giggles*

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:09 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I have given the question of what might be a better political system for Canada some thought...

Amongst my reading, I found the system the Swiss had to be the most interesting:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/bk/buku/buku2005/index.html

In this system they have what they call direct democracy where if the population gets pissed enough they can over-rule the government, if your up to it give it a read... referendums and recall votes are something else they use in an interesting way.

BTW It is easier to have them mail you the book explaining their system, which they do for free

The Swiss Confederation: a brief guide 2005 -

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/bk/order/index.html

Interesting. On brief scan, a lot is like our (US) Federal, state, and local government, but with more direct citizen involvement. I'll send for the book. Thanks for the link.

Chris. You seeing this? Could be useful info for a more direct system.

Cool beans.

Edit: Order placed. Neato!

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:17 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Thousands of pieces of legislation are passed by the Congress annually, not to mention those passed by state, county, and city governments. How much time do you have to become informed on each of these, without any help, while still earning a living?

You hadda bring reality into this, didn't you?

Okay, I demonstrated it Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:18 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i'm 17!
*giggles*

You can be my honorary grand-daughter anytime.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:19 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
IMHO, the Federal Government does not bear all the onus for mistakes made - while acknowledging that mistakes were made..

Actually, legally, yes they do (bear all the onus). Changes were made to the emergency response system this past January that puts the onus directly on the Federal government to be THE responding agency in a Federal State of Emergency. That was done to clear up the lines of authority that were so tangled during 9-11. Until then, FEMA was pretty much an afterthought in disaster situations... handing out papers for government loans for the most part.

Yes indeed mistakes were made at all levels (except, as far as I can tell, at the Mayoral level). But aside from the mistakes, there is the fact that the entire upper echelon of Bush's administration and Bush himself, did not interrupt their palns to actually deal with the disaster. While FEMA was foundering there was no follow-up. No- "How's it going? Is everything in place? Are people being rescued?" Bush stuck to his schedule for TWO DAYS after the levees broke before finally getting involved. What can one make of THAT??

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:35 PM

You can be my honorary grand-daughter anytime.

thanks granddaddy!
this makes me think of firefly- not suprising because just about everything does- and book and kaylee!

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
IMHO, the Federal Government does not bear all the onus for mistakes made - while acknowledging that mistakes were made..
Actually, legally, yes they do (bear all the onus). Changes were made to the emergency response system this past January that puts the onus directly on the Federal government to be THE responding agency in a Federal State of Emergency. That was done to clear up the lines of authority that were so tangled during 9-11. Until then, FEMA was pretty much an afterthought in disaster situations... handing out papers for government loans for the most part.

Yes indeed mistakes were made at all levels (except, as far as I can tell, at the Mayoral level). But aside from the mistakes, there is the fact that the entire upper echelon of Bush's administration and Bush himself, did not interrupt their palns to actually deal with the disaster. While FEMA was foundering there was no follow-up. No- "How's it going? Is everything in place? Are people being rescued?" Bush stuck to his schedule for TWO DAYS after the levees broke before finally getting involved. What can one make of THAT??

Please don't think they give a shit.

So you think the evacuation was run correctly ?

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:29 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, the pre-hurricane evacuation it wasn't run correctly, but that wasn't Nagin's fault. The NOLA emergency plan (drafted with IEM contracted by FEMA) depended on people having their own transportation. That was a major flaw, but that was the plan. THe bus drivers had been dimissed and couldn't be recalled, and there wasn't anything Nagin could do except call for volunteers. Afterwards, when city and state resources were overwhelmed, FEMA bobbled. The Feds COULD have done, SHOULD have done a lot of things that they didn't do.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, the pre-hurricane evacuation it wasn't run correctly, but that wasn't Nagin's fault. The NOLA emergency plan (drafted with IEM contracted by FEMA) depended on people having their own transportation. That was a major flaw, but that was the plan. THe bus drivers had been dimissed and couldn't be recalled, and there wasn't anything Nagin could do except call for volunteers. Afterwards, when city and state resources were overwhelmed, FEMA bobbled. The Feds COULD have done, SHOULD have done a lot of things that they didn't do.

Please don't think they give a shit.

What about people that could'nt be expected to evac on their own, for example hospital patients... one of the first things done in other scenarios I looked at was to clear out the hospitals to 1) Get those people out and 2) Clear needed space...

I would expand the same thinking to old age homes, etc... I would say the city and state would be on its own for say the first 24 hrs ( I would think the Feds could get a command group in place in that time ) While I realize that didn't happen, I think they should have performed better with what they had....

BTW Why were the bus drivers dismissed ?, surely some city employees were availible to step into other roles... Sanitation drivers and heavy equipment operators can surely drive buses... and in such a case I would hope step in without complaint... Here in Calgary, I know many city workers perform doubledutys in normal circumstance... electricians who drive snow clearing equipment during major storms etc to spell off the guys who normally do it and so on

Also I'm sure the city must have reviewed their responsibilitys with this NOLA plan, and A) If they couldn't hold their part should have either taken measures or caused a stink... and B) If their assessment of the plan ( people without transport ) was unreasonable, they should have made it an issue before the plan was approved...

I'm not saying the Feds are innocent, or the State... or the city either

Everyone needs to eat a piece of this

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It wasn't made clear why they were dismissed. EDITED TO ADD: It prolly had to do with being able to participate on the voluntary evacuation END EDIT There are several things that Nagin did according to the NOLA Disaster plan: He called a voluntary evacuation, he called a mandatory evacuation more than 24 hours ahead of landfall and he designated the Superdome as a refuge of last resort. ALL of this was in their emergency plan.

The first flaw in the plan was that it depended on people having their own transportation to get out of the city or get to shelters (or to refuges of last resort). Nagin sent buses to known collection points to take people to designated shelters. That was not in the plan, but he did it anyway. The second flaw is that there were no high-ground shelters. That would probably have taken state or Federal cooperation because I don't think it was anything Nagin could have arranged on his own.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:11 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i'm 17!
*giggles*

To bad. Guess my question should have been 'when's your birthday?'

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Monday, September 12, 2005 9:37 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
While FEMA was foundering there was no follow-up. No- "How's it going? Is everything in place? Are people being rescued?" Bush stuck to his schedule for TWO DAYS after the levees broke before finally getting involved. What can one make of THAT??

Um...that he really didn't give a shit?

But he doesn't have to, does he Chrisisall

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It wasn't made clear why they were dismissed. EDITED TO ADD: It prolly had to do with being able to participate on the voluntary evacuation END EDIT There are several things that Nagin did according to the NOLA Disaster plan: He called a voluntary evacuation, he called a mandatory evacuation more than 24 hours ahead of landfall and he designated the Superdome as a refuge of last resort. ALL of this was in their emergency plan.

The first flaw in the plan was that it depended on people having their own transportation to get out of the city or get to shelters (or to refuges of last resort). Nagin sent buses to known collection points to take people to designated shelters. That was not in the plan, but he did it anyway. The second flaw is that there were no high-ground shelters. That would probably have taken state or Federal cooperation because I don't think it was anything Nagin could have arranged on his own.

Please don't think they give a shit.

But the hospitals were not evacuated...

Usually this is done first, well ahead of the main evacuation, and to other hospitals out of the dangerzone... as some of these people would require constant care...

Seniors homes would be a close second in priority... I don't know if it is true, but I did read an account of such a home where these seniors were abandoned by the staff of the facility, and all died...

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Quote:
Originally posted by reallykaylee:
i am just so sick and tired of people hating PEOPLE. it's the stupid party system that's to blame for creating so much hatred. curse necessary evils!

I understand what you mean but politics is one of those necessary and unpleasant part of life. I consider it somewhat akin to death. Without death, there is no life. Without politics there is no community. It is human nature to struggle against one another and a necessary part of community and human society.

I may get blasted for that opinion, but there it is.

Quote:

of course i do own a shirt that says viva la reagan revolution . . . that looks just like one of those che shirts, BUT IT'S FUN! you've got to forgive me! (my friend has one that says "we'll always have clinton" and we wear them on the same day!)

Hey, I have one of those! Cool!

High Five!

Andrew Lynch

PS, http://www.thoseshirts.com/reaganwt.html]

This one is much cooler in my book...

Don't think they give a shit

I'm with Signy and Rue and Tecumseh

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:28 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Hey, I have that shirt too! Cracks me up, every time I look at it.

HKCavalier

Actually some of them do, but they lack the courage to do what's right

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:30 PM

George W (that's washington

) said himself that it was a necessary evil. i agree . . . sometimes the best way to make a difference is to work from inside a party (like myself and the repub at the moment) but that doesn't mean you can hate others. so much bushmashing is about indistincts and not takes on issues ( that means 'are the bodybags worth it?' not just yelling about death) and i would hate to mimic that with more hatred.
funny you talk about community- i'm in the middle of an essay for npr about a tolerant well-informed one. (i talk about shakespeare and splenda).
shinies on the shirt! (what's that i hear? the distinct sound of hell freezing over? there's someone else who gets death threats due to clothing?)

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Monday, September 12, 2005 6:09 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Man, did this thread go off topic or what? I would hope that the "opposition" are respectfully holding back while the administration has time to deal with the emergency. On the other hand, maybe they're gun shy, like a fighter afraid to through a jab because he knows a tremendous counter punch will follow.

Anyways after reading most of the posts I though I'd offer up three time lines. One from each side and the third from a neutral party.

http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-time
line/

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

All three time lines show that officials on all levels were acting. State of Emergencies for Louisiana were declared on the both the state and federal level, right after Katrina hit Florida.

All three also show a lot of mistakes. The three that stick out for me are:
1) Nagin didn make the evacuation mandanatory until Sunday.
2) Inspite of declaring an emergency, the President remained on vacation until after the hurricane was over.
3) The Bataan was available with 600 hospital beds and significant water treatment capabilities but was never mobilized.

Seems like the only ones really on the ball were the Coast Guard and the National Weather Service.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:10 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
But the hospitals were not evacuated...

Usually this is done first, well ahead of the main evacuation, and to other hospitals out of the dangerzone... as some of these people would require constant care...

Seniors homes would be a close second in priority... I don't know if it is true, but I did read an account of such a home where these seniors were abandoned by the staff of the facility, and all died...

The Beeb has some coverage of this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4240132.stm

The staff at Memorial Hospital apparently did everything possible, but I just can't understand why these folks weren't evaced well before the storm hit. It really does seem to me that the local authorities would be the ones responsible for planning and executing a pre-storm move of these people. FEMA may have had oversight, and may share some responsibility for missing this, but the locals bear the bulk of the burden, IMHO.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I scanned the NOLA Emergency Preparedness Plan, and one of the things I DIDN"T see was a plan for evacuating hospitals. There was a plan for Special Needs Shelters (SNS) in the city which made crystal clear that SNS were NOT to take people who could not take care of themselves, or who depended on a continuous supply of electricity- people on ventilators, critically ill, or total care patients. But evacuting hospitals is prolly not within the Mayors purview because patients have to be evaucated from one hospital TO another hospital, and a city-wide evacuation clearly means that hospitals outside of the city have to be involved. Coordinating that would either be a state or Federal function.

I heard, but have not had time to confirm, that FEMA promised Blanco that they would provide buses for transportation. I THINK the FEMA National Preparedness Plan assumes Federal responsibility for evacuating hospitals, but I'll have to double check as time permits.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There is a good article in the LA Times that addresses the faulty evacuation. The reason why the NOLA plan was almost silent on transportation was because it hadn't been worked out. Apparently Nagin DID line up buses but, as I said before, ran short of drivers. There were about a dozen pick-up points, but bc of lack of drivers many people waited for a long time w/o ever getting a ride.

In addition, the other point that I made was that the schools that had been designated as shelters might be flooded to the rooftops. They were apparently eventually decided to be unsafe and not used. (Good move)You have to read about 2/3 of the way into this article b4 you get to the salient points.

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dvd13sep13,0,5876683.sto
ry?coll=la-home-headlines

I think when all is said and done people will find that in lieu of a 100% evacuation, when Nagin designated the Superdome as Refuge of Last Resort he saved thousands if not tens of thousands of lives.

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:14 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There is a good article in the LA Times that addresses the faulty evacuation. The reason why the NOLA plan was almost silent on transportation was because it hadn't been worked out. Apparently Nagin DID line up buses but, as I said before, ran short of drivers.

Amtrack offered the city 900 seats on an outgoing train. Nagin refused. The train left empty a few hours before the storm hit.

I'm also reading that the largest levy break may have been caused by a runaway barge. Oddly, huge disasters caused by runaway barges are not unheard of occurances. Also heard a Corps of Engineers guy last night saying no amount of money would have made a differance because the levees, no matter how much work they did to upkeep them, were not designed to handle a storm that large. Its like a 10 gallon bucket. It can be the nicest, newest, most modern 10 gallon bucket in the world, but it aint gonna hold 11 gallons.

I guess the FEMA director should have been personally overseeing the removal of the barges along with the staffing of the City buses, dropping water and food to the Superdome, handing out diapers and water to looters, and personally commanding the Louisiana National Guard. Matter of fact, as far as disaster goes State and Local governments have no role whatsoever.

Imagine, Bush, unsatisfied with Lousiana's preparations, could have invoked the Insurrection Act and taken direct control of the State without the invitation or approval of a female, elected Democratic Governor. Then we'd all have nothing to complain about, would we?

Instead all we got was Federal aid deployed faster and on a larger scale then at anytime in American history for a natural disaster.

Perhaps next time the President should just assume the local Democratic officials are incapable of handling the most basic emergency services and step right in at the first sign of a problem. Matter of fact, why wait? Democrats are clearly incapable, we cannot afford to wait to the eve of another Katrina to act, we should consider removing them now. Judge Roberts, your response:

Quote:

"No one is above the law and that includes the president."

Oh, well never mind then...

H

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Imagine, Bush, unsatisfied with Lousiana's preparations, could have invoked the Insurrection Act and taken direct control of the State without the invitation or approval of a female, elected Democratic Governor. Then we'd all have nothing to complain about, would we?

Hero- Why do you keep tossing out false dilemnas? This was already addressed in several threads. Bush had the authority to call in the National Guard from other states to perform non-police/ security duties (search and rescue and relief). That was one of the main points of of the whole new National Plan. Sheesh! Get w/ the program!

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:06 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Imagine, Bush, unsatisfied with Lousiana's preparations, could have invoked the Insurrection Act and taken direct control of the State without the invitation or approval of a female, elected Democratic Governor. Then we'd all have nothing to complain about, would we?
Hero- Why do you keep tossing out false dilemnas? This was already addressed in several threads. Bush had the authority to call in the National Guard from other states to perform non-police/ security duties (search and rescue and relief). That was one of the main points of of the whole new National Plan. Sheesh! Get w/ the program!

Nice dodge. Lets you ignore the fact that Blanco refused a direct Presidential request to take control of the 13,000 National Guard troops, from Louisiana and other states, operating in Louisiana. In order to override her decisions he would have had to invoke the Insurrection Act.

She also waited till Thursday, Sept 1st to make specific requests for aid. Turning the whole armed forces of the United States over to the governor of Louisiana who was visibly shaken and frantic on TV was not an option I want the President to consider.

If Bush deserves any complaints (besides the poor choice for FEMA director) its that he didn't usurp Blanco's authority and take direct control. If he had, I'm sure you'd be complaining about that and saying "he never had the authority to do that."

H

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:14 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Also heard a Corps of Engineers guy last night saying no amount of money would have made a differance because the levees, no matter how much work they did to upkeep them, were not designed to handle a storm that large. Its like a 10 gallon bucket. It can be the nicest, newest, most modern 10 gallon bucket in the world, but it aint gonna hold 11 gallons.

Factcheck.org has an interesting analysis of the levee situation.

http://factcheck.org/article344.html

I hadn't realized that the levee system was only designed to take a Category three storm, and that water overtopping the levees was considered more likely than breaches.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:30 AM