Anecdotal evidence of psychic abilities; any 'readers' out there? by chrisisall

You know what? I so did not expect that, that I LOL&ROTF!

That was good.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:46 PM

JADEHAND

Fun. I like these threads. I've had several occurances of "deja vu". Usually just random conversations with friends. Some brief some less so. Much less often I've had the "I know this is going to happen, but I don't know how I know it." I don't remember specifically any details. No past life memories have been revealed, though I've had some serious pull(dreams/attraction to) towards Native America. Strangely, I've had several other "unexplained" events. Anyone else out there wanna talk ufos and/or supernatural?

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:16 AM

CITIZEN

Hero, you seem to be developing a sense of humour, keep it up

...

Well, I've had extreemly vivid dreams of future events, just like memories, but even more vivid and before the event rather than after...

The really freaky thing is it seems like I have consiouse control of the dream, but not of the event when it happens...

Anyway, I've also had that normal thing of knowing the phones going to ring before it does, or thinking of an old friend you haven't spoken to in ages, just before they ring you. Those seem to be quite common.

I've also had times where I can seem to feel what people are thinking, but whether thats simply intuitivness or something more I wouldn't like to say...

EDIT:
Oh, and I can make computers work with my brain...
Well, by talking to them at least... Sometimes...

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:45 AM

I want to know why I'll turn on the t.v. and I'll catch the exact same scene of a movie I've never watched all the way through every single time. Or why I'll turn on a t.v. show I've watched only once before and it will be exactly the same episode I saw the first time, and then it'll happen again the third time.

Or why I get sat at exactly the same table when I go to a restaurant I haven't been to in ages by a host that wasn't even working there the last time.

These phenomena are commonplace, and yet people never think to seek meaning in them. At the very least, they suggest that there are subconscious rythms and paterns in reality that we tend to follow that have nothing to do with material reality or strictly linear time.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:00 AM

KNIBBLET

The most recent incident that comes to mind for me was last year this week.

I walked out the back door of the warehouse to find my boss rolling an ATV into the back of his truck. He was heading out for a family weekend up north.

I have ridden ATVs. I have friends with ATVs. I'm not anti-ATV.

I saw him and that ATV and a shudder went down my spine and I just *KNEW*. I told him, "Be careful and whatever you do, don't break your neck."

I went home and didn't eat my dinner. Handsome husband asked me what was wrong and I told him, "I saw Terry laying in the dirt with his neck broken." Handsome man knows that upon occassion I *see* something and it happens.

I didn't eat or sleep all weekend. Sunday evening I got a call from Terry's wife. He was in intensive care. It seems his ATV rolled over and crushed his arm and shattered his shoulder blade.

He missed a broken neck by under an inch.

Weeks of surgeries and months of rehab. He came back to work in January.

As I said, that's the one that stands out freshest in my mind.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:59 AM

Knibblet, you did exactly the right thing. There is every reason to believe that he followed your instructions, prolly subconsciously; but the subconscious is a very, very powerful tool in these kinds of situations. If you'd gotten all crazy with him and forbade him to go or some such, it would have engaged his ego and the ego is more than happy to overrule the subconscious body when it has a mind to.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:38 AM

Well done, Hero.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:25 AM

HK and folks, my lovely wife, Milagroisall:

Ok, I admit it, I had been a reluctant lurker on this board and then a shameless lurker--now I'm just out and out hijacking my man's message box. Brazenly walking into what our son calls "Daddy's territory". But y'all are so damn smart and......weird... my favorite kind of folk.

HK Cavalier, you have really prompted my jumping into the pool because in reading your stuff, I said to myself "I didn't know they made people like him/her."
You make these just brilliant, heartfelt, and intuitive connections and leaps--I'm speaking of your gift and obvious area of expertise. I have a million and one things I'd like to say--but first felt I should ask if you'd mind my treating you like a professor or a minister or a fellow traveller that's been around the world a few times more than me. This mostly pertains to shaping a spiritual life that is whole and holds Creation and all our Relations, visions, dreams, "psychic stuff" and living practically in the everyday world at the same time. Ok, that's pretty much the kitchen sink now. Thanks for allowing me to introduce myself.

Nice to meet everyone.

Milagroisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:44 PM

Que Milagro!

Que bueno!

Howdy! (Give the ol' man a good swift kick, eh? He probably needs one every now and then.)

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:41 PM

Hey Ruxton! Don't go givin' her any ideas!

Hmm....I see a knuckle sandwich in your future...
Just kiddin', of course

(She' tough, you know, she broke my leg once in Aikido class- no joke!)

Hairline fracture of the upper right fibula to be exact Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:38 PM

Gracias for the howdy....

Que sabroso!

Yeah, gave up on the kicks, geez, break a guy's leg one time and they can't let it go. If he's holding forth, I just start reading poetry aloud.

Milagroisall

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:04 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I want to know why I'll turn on the t.v. and I'll catch the exact same scene of a movie I've never watched all the way through every single time. Or why I'll turn on a t.v. show I've watched only once before and it will be exactly the same episode I saw the first time, and then it'll happen again the third time.

Oooh, Ooh! I have that same gift...er curse...er power.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Friday, September 16, 2005 12:56 PM

Hey there Milagro,

Thank you for the very, very kind words. Folks like you and me don't tend to get a lot of recognition for our real gifts, so getting this much from you is a precious thing to me. I, and I think everyone here has gotten so much out of Chris being here. I look forward to your contribution.

If you and Mr. Isall ever get out to Seattle, look me up. I can tell you are "my kind of folk" as well.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 1:15 PM

PIFFLE101

I used to have deja-vu like every day in 4thgrade..then It disappeared.

But I do tend to know what people are gonna say b4 they say it..But I dont tell em I do..Cause they say "Yeah, Right"..I just call it a coinq-ki-dink.

"It's okay to leave them to die."
"I'm a leaf on the wind."
---------------------------
Im required to do this: Serenity is coming. 9/30/05

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Friday, September 16, 2005 8:51 PM

Milagro, de nada (on the "howdy").

Sabroso, eh? Y un ladron, tambien, claro que si! Y posiblemente algo mas mal! (SOOO long disused! Forgive errors, por favor.) España o Méjico?

Whose poetry? I used to love Poe, but his stuff is probably more manly than you might like.
---------------------

Chris,

Sorry I didn't get back sooner. Did you get your swift kick? Was it good for you, too? Hope it was not good enough to rupture more bones, but good enough to get your attention. And I could probably use a knuckle sandwich. Do me a lotta good. BTW, there used to be an old saw about don't teach your girlfriend how to shoot, not until she becomes your wife (but that might be even more dangerous, in hindsight.) Apparently that applies to self-defense of all types, eh?

BTW, to respond to your thread query, I'm somewhat of an empath. And I have had several occurences of hearing someone speak when in actual fact they merely thought the words, but never uttered them (witness corroboration). Perhaps more on this (and others) later.

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:32 AM

Ruxton, my swift kick came in the form of watching 'The Body' last night. Whoah, what socked away grief I had (have) curled up in me. It was just me and Mr. Tissues watchin' that episode...
Memories coming up from dark pools...

Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:04 AM

Chris,

"The Body" was indeed brilliant, and delivers a great kick to the guts.

I take it from various posts you are a relative newcomer to the Buffy universe, and if so, you've got a mighty fine "ride" in front of you.

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:30 PM

SHINY4004

He (Chris) does indeed have a ride ahead of him.

You should read the thread that he started about how he thought he'd "just watch a few seasons" and that'd be it. lol It was highly amusing reading stuff like "after season 2 I think I'm going to stop" and then awhile later "after season 3.."

"Oh I'm going to the special hell."-Mal

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 12:42 PM

Shiny4004,

Thanks for the note.

Only a few seasons!?

Hehehe!

HAR!HAR!HAR!!

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 12:44 PM

Chris,

On the "Best Buffy" thread I was about to ask you to notice the music on "The Body" next time you watched it, but someone gave it away already.

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:07 PM

Chris,

I know someone with, hmm, abilities. He can drive without being able to see. Like through ZERO visibility blizzards. He can find places he doesn't know--without a map--he'll just know where to turn. There is the usual knowing who is calling without caller ID, and seeing stuff in dreams that come true. These things don't happen consistently, or even all that often. But I've personally seen them happen enough to think there is something there.

Interesting thread. You are just so creative.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, September 19, 2005 11:15 AM

When I was a little kid, I saw a Star Trek episode wherein Spock said, "Instruments register only that which they were designed to register, space still contains vast unknowns."
Ever since then I've been aware that in trying to measure and quantify and label, what we don't know far exceeds what we do.
And psychic phenomena is an area that science is almost afraid of, due to it's inability to examine under laboratory conditions.

Speaking of which, anyone ever see 'The Legend Of Hell House'?
What a movie on the subject!!!

Chrisisallpale

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Monday, September 19, 2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And psychic phenomena is an area that science is almost afraid of, due to it's inability to examine under laboratory conditions.

As a scientist, I want to clarify that science is a method of obtaining knowledge, and therefore cannot be afraid of anything. Some fields are harder than others to examine using science, but I don't think it is fear that keeps scientists away. It is more lack of exposure and ignorance. Most scientists probably have never seen a psychic performance and haven't any clue how to study it.

The problem with studying psychic ability is lack of consistency. I believe it is more like athletic talent (where homeruns are rare) than musical or intellectual talent (where you can pretty much perform on demand). But because psychic performance comes from the mind, people tend to expect it to be more on demand, like playing the piano or solving equations. When that doesn't happen, skeptics dismiss psychic phenomena as myths or hoaxes. Of course, it doesn't help that there ARE a lot of myths and hoaxes.

It is not science that fears psychic abilities, but society. Think X-Men. Society doesn't want people who can read minds or the future or control material objects in another room. I never believe anyone who has a TV show about talking to the dead, for example. If someone could really talk to the dead, they wouldn't go public about their ability to expose murderers.

I think the only way for a truly gifted psychic (who can perform consistently) to "come out"any to the public is to disguise psychic or telekinetic abilities as clever, entertaining magic tricks. When people think they're fake, it is not so scary anymore.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, September 19, 2005 9:23 PM

Thanks for the sports analogy, CTS. That's a good one. It would be absurd for a baseball player to hit a ball out of the park when there's no game on and call it a home run, or to conclude because a game is called on account of rain that the players on the two teams involved have lost the ability to play. Problem is, the forces that define and determine the success or failure of a "psychic event" are every bit as unknown to science as the mechanism of psychic awareness itself. If there are enough "unknowns" in a system, things can't help looking pretty random. And as with athletic competition, psychic awareness is fundamentally an interaction--either between the minds of two people, or between the mind of the psychic and the latent consciousness of his surroundings.

For some reason, the idea that the entire universe is simply conscious, that there is awareness looking back at you no matter where you look is very hard for most people of European ancestry to fathom. I'm not talking about "God"--some supernatural individual who hides himself in the wind blowing through the reeds; some centralized authority in the sky, thinking up rules for us to break--I'm talking about simple conscious awareness in your cat, a rock, a sofa, a t.v. set or nitrogen atoms.

Then there's the false dichotomy of subjectivity/objectivity that most scientific thinkers take for granted. Consciousness is believed to define the "subjective" and the material world is said to define the "objective." In such a universe, science is the best way for the subjective to authentically encounter the objective. But if reality is fundamentally conscious, then so-called objective reality has habits and opinions and interests of its own that interfere with scientific inquiry at every turn. So, not only do people tend to see what they want to see, but the universe tends to show what it wants to show--and to whom.

Science, by its nature, relies on a psychically empty, inanimate world on the other side of our five senses. Science may not be afraid, but psychic phenomena definitely threaten science as we know it at its core.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
He can find places he doesn't know--without a map--he'll just know where to turn.

This is actually not that uncommon, humans do seem to have some level of the same 'homing instinct' that animals do, it's just that our reliance on technology has caused us to ignore and suppress it, so it's fairly atrophied in most people.

The slackerhood of having a GPS handy just makes it worse, I figure.. but yes, humans DO have that instinct, which probably works the same way it does in animals, so those studies could likely carry right over to our own species.

As far as 'abilities' ... I also think there's some crossover between keen understanding of human nature, specific people and pyschology that apply as well, but at the high end of it, there's likely some crossover between that and true talent, I think Rhine and Brown made notes about same, but never really investigated that end of things.

I also think ole Kirlian was on to more than he knew, but no one has ever carried forward his research either, as religion tends to get heavily in the way of studies like those.

Believing that such things MAY exist, is a lot more sensible than beliving utterly that they do not, because the evidence leans to the former.

-F

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 5:49 AM

CUNKNOWN

Hi fellow Browncoats!

I just have to respond to this, because someone has to play Scully to you all's Mulder. The first thing I wanted to respond to was the idea that science is "frightened" of psychic phenomena. I can't think of anything that is further from the truth.

Scientists investigate strange and unusual phenomena all the time (such as the properties of subatomic particles, quantum physics, etc.). Saying that they would be hesitant or even scared of studying such an extremely interesting (and highly useful!) topic as psychic abilities gravely underestimates the willingness of scientists to explore new areas. This would open up an entirely new field of research, and whoever managed to do it would almost certainly will a nobel prize at some point.

The problem is that there isn't a phenomenon here to study. Nothing needs to be explained--take for example the anecdote of the ATV being flipped over on Knibblet's boss. First of all, anecdotes can't be used as evidence of anything. Second, even if they could, there's a problem here which is the fact that ATV's are very dangerous and everyone knows it. It doesn't quite take psychic abilities to be worried when someone you know goes out for a weekend excursion on one of those things. I don't know what the odds of breaking your neck are, but I think we can agree that they're much higher than the ATV manufacturer would like you to know. All that happened here was: Boss takes ATV on trip. Knibblet worries. Boss gets flipped over. Knibblet feels the worry was validated (and it was). Nothing psychic is happening here.

Most psychic "phenomena" are either a hoax or a misinterpretation of feelings or events. Science could make it it's business to investigate and disprove psyhcic claims (and other paranormal claims, for that matter), but being honest, it's not worth the time or the taxpayer's money. If there was a real phenomenon here, you can be sure that scientists would be investigating it.

There is a famous example of psychic abilities being disproved back in the 1800's (I think). The guy's name was Mesmer and he had this whole cult of people following him--he was famous enough that a group of prominent scientists (including Benjamin Franklin, if I remember right) got interested in him and his "abilities." Using the scientific method, he was exposed as a hoax and his following eventually disapeared. I'm sure the same could be done for any paranormal or psychic phenomenon you care to name.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CUnknown:
Saying that they would be hesitant or even scared of studying such an extremely interesting (and highly useful!) topic as psychic abilities gravely underestimates the willingness of scientists to explore new areas.

Hear, hear. Thank you.

Quote:
The problem is that there isn't a phenomenon here to study.

Science wouldn't categorically conclude that psychic phenomena do not exist, just because many past claims of "phenomena" can be explained to *some* scientists' satisfaction within our current paradigm.

Quote:
Science could make it it's business to investigate and disprove psyhcic claims (and other paranormal claims, for that matter), but being honest, it's not worth the time or the taxpayer's money. If there was a real phenomenon here, you can be sure that scientists would be investigating it.

First of all, why would they make it their goal to "disprove" it? A good scientist would apply the same amount of skepticism as he/she would to any other field, but would also be open to unexpected findings, whichever direction they might lie. Secondly, yes, there are scientists who specialize in investigating paranormal phenomena. http://www.parapsych.org/mission_statement.html
Now I'm not familiar with their research and quality of their publications, but the point is, there are scholars using the scientific method to explore this field.

Quote:
I'm sure the same could be done for any paranormal or psychic phenomenon you care to name.

See, I have a problem with being so sure about dismissing an entire field in the name of science. The science I know is careful about not jumping to conclusions.

Is there a dearth of dramatic psychic anomalies that defy conventional explanation? Yes, I agree with you that there isn't a lot out there to investigate. You can assume it is because it just isn't there. I believe it is because it is well hidden.

Take my friend who can drive through blizzards. He has other more dramatic "psychic" experiences. But he doesn't want folks to know. For that matter, he doesn't really want people to know he drives through blizzards either. He doesn't understand or like his abilities. Though he'll use them in a pinch, most of the time he likes to forget about them and just be a normal guy. He doesn't go out there volunteering for psychic studies or whatnot. I wonder how many others like him are out there.

I'm not trying to persuade you to acknowledge that psychic phenomena exist. I don't know if they do. I simply know that science is a lot more open to possibilities than dismissing all "phenomena" categorically.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:00 AM

Ah, CUnknown, you prolly think you're being helpful, or at least sensible. You're prolly unaware that your arguments are shot through with prejudice. You're prolly unaware that blithely discounting other people's experiences hurts them as surely as a slap. After all, most humans grow up having their experiences discounted and many eventually learn to accept it. Many learn to discount their own experiences and call it "objectivity."

It makes me so angry that ignorance like yours is the norm in the western world; that you can waltz in here with your false certainty and label someone like Knibblet a charlatan or a fool and not realize that you're simply carrying on the work of Popes and inquisitors and despots throughout history.

Interesting that you should pick Scully as your model. Over the course of years of encountering "the paranormal" Scully eventually had to credit the stuff as actually going on, not because she did a bunch of double blind tests and published in a peer reviewed journal, but because it was happening to her. This is the way most of us determine what is real and what isn't. Of course, in the meantime, fans of the show had to watch her season after season "debunking" and explaining away things that we all knew were happening to her week after week. Welcome to my world! LOL

The first thing a "scientist" like you will do with a story like Knibblet's is discount the emotional experience at the center of the event. She did not describe a case of simple "worry," she described an overwhelming and debilitating experience which I'm sure she would differentiate from ordinary worry. The nature of her reaction cues her to its psychic significance. Similar to Scully in the latter seasons of the X-files, Knibblet's husband has come to accept the validity of these psychic experiences to which he's been witness.

By removing its extraordinary context (witnessed by her husband), you destroy the meaning of Knibblet's experience. That kind of behavior just makes you look bad.

Quote:
Originally posted by CUnknown:
Using the scientific method, he was exposed as a hoax and his following eventually disapeared. I'm sure the same could be done for any paranormal or psychic phenomenon you care to name.

There is so much of life that we can't use the scientific method to authenticate. And we don't have to. I don't have to lock a child in a box to know that it will make the child crazy, but scientists will spend plenty of money on such research. Love is the most important force in the universe and science has jack to say about it so far.

On the other hand, the scientific method has been used to support plenty of evil nonsense; people have concluded that animals don't feel pain, that women do not have a sex drive and native Africans have smaller brains than Europeans. Eventually these theories, formed by prejudice and cultural malice, are discredited by science, even though millions of lay people knew this stuff was b.s. to begin with.

You will be similarly disproved, CUnknown. I just know it.

P.S: Sorry, to come off all harsh like this, but I'd really like you to think twice before you post this kind of insensitive and ignorant attack in the future. My intent is not that you censor yourself, but that you be mindful of the emotional violence you may commit and post without reflexively discounting highly personal information people have been generous enough to share with you.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:03 AM

'Afraid' was a very bad choice of words on my part, but it did spark quite an interesting and lively debate here.
And as usual, HK spelled out how I feel about all this way better than I ever could have, he must read books and stuff ("To read makes our speaking English better.").

Sub-literate Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:47 AM

Cavalier, you said:
"Science, by its nature, relies on a psychically empty, inanimate world on the other side of our five senses. Science may not be afraid, but psychic phenomena definitely threaten science as we know it at its core."

I agree. That was very well written, as was all of your post. However, you implied something to which I take exception, and that is: "...the universe tends to show what it wants to show--and to whom."

Psychic ability can be developed, and by anyone, I believe, given a desire to learn and a suitable environment. The ability to experience what we commonly call psychic ability is enhanced by solitude and silence. By that, I mean when one is far distant from all other people and all radio and TV transmissions. Not that one just turns off the TV, but that there are no TV and very few radio transmissions at all.

To the person wanting to expand his psychic abilities, such an environment will aid greatly in their development. Meditation helps. Also, as one comes to trust his psychic abilities, they will develop more quickly and with greater strength. When one comes to trust them completely, and have absolute faith in one's...hunches, feelings, urges, inner knowledge, they will do things for the person that he never would have believed had he not gone that route.

I speak here from very strong personal experience, having spent several years in very remote areas with zero people around. I came to know when a squirrel was watching me as I walked through the woods, because I could feel his eyes on me. Most wild animals know when you're watching them, particularly deer. The person living more like a wild animal than most of us will ever experience also develops these abilities, which I believe are in all of us. I had wild bird and animal friends who communicated very well with me. (I have photographic proof of this, but cannot share pictures with anyone at this time. Suffice to say I'm speaking from long and strong personal experience.)

In short, almost anyone can develop his/her psychic abilities if the desire to do so exists. Of course, some have these abilities without having made much overt effort. Some, however, vehemently deny the possibility of there being anything in existence that they can't see. For them, I just turn on the radio. Think about that. Our air is filled with unseen transmissions. If you're "tuned in" to them, you'll pick them up as "psychic phenomena." At night, when most folks sleep, many an artist does his best work because the background noise is diminished, and the artist can more easily tune in to his subconscious. More later.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:56 AM

CUNKNOWN,

You seem to have major limitations in your background and/or experiences. Are you not aware of the use of remote viewing by many government's secret services? Are you not aware that it works for some folks?

You're a doubter and that's fine, but please don't put your limitations on those who know better. I don't mean to disparage your thoughts, but it's evident you are not capable of feeing things that others are, or you'd never have made your statements.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Consciousness is believed to define the "subjective" and the material world is said to define the "objective."...then so-called objective reality has habits and opinions and interests of its own that interfere with scientific inquiry at every turn...

What an eloquent and tantalizing postulate! You are a pleasure to read.

Consciousness is studied objectively by scientists all the time. Human habits, opinions, interests, and choices are observed, hypothesized, experimented on, and theorized by some of the best scientific minds in the world. See, there is no subject science can't tackle. Religion, mysticism, paranormal phenomena, astrology, human irrationality, subjectivity itself--they can all be studied systematically and objectively. If reality has a consciousness, its willful interference would just be another variable to factor in. Psychologists have to do it routinely when studying human behavior. It's OK.

Quote:
Science may not be afraid, but psychic phenomena definitely threaten science as we know it at its core.

Scientists might be threatened by a paradigm revolution. They are human after all, with a lifetime of investments in what little knowledge they think they have. But *science* can't be threatened by anything. Contrary to popular misconception, science is not WHAT we know, but HOW we know. It is the question, and the journey one takes to find answers to the question. It is not the answer itself, and therefore cannot be threatened by opposing answers.

Science has many, many limitations, and is not the best method to use to explore all questions. (That is why we have religion, philosophy, art, music, sports and Joss Whedon.) It doesn't mean though, that science is in competition with these other experiences and methods. Science is not exclusive or superior, even though some people might make it out to be that way.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:32 AM

CITIZEN

This Thread got longer in my absence!
Forgive me if my sentences are Illegible, I just got back from Germany, where I have been partaking of the Oktoberfest...

Quote:
Originally posted by CUnknown:
There is a famous example of psychic abilities being disproved back in the 1800's (I think). The guy's name was Mesmer and he had this whole cult of people following him--he was famous enough that a group of prominent scientists (including Benjamin Franklin, if I remember right) got interested in him and his "abilities." Using the scientific method, he was exposed as a hoax and his following eventually disapeared. I'm sure the same could be done for any paranormal or psychic phenomenon you care to name.

Hmm, sounds more like blind faith to me, rather than any scientific method I've ever come across

...

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:27 PM

MILAGROISALL

Thanks for your warm welcome, HK. Seattle must be a cool place to live. We are definitely simpatico.

Hmmmm, much going on since last I lurked...some of the posts containing the sort of reaction that makes me reluctant to go deeper into my experience here. Sort of like roller skating blindfolded around a big hole in the floor in a department store, do I or don't I?!

Seems that there are two viewpoints that are miles apart; the world is alive and we are inextricably bound to it all-spirit, matter, thought, and heart OR the world is not alive and through our intellect we can make sense out of it all. Having a poet's sensibilities, the former comes more naturally to me. I like to imagine that the two camps are not so opposed--anyone reading Annie Dillard's observations of nature could squint really hard and see the intersection occur.

Always takes me so long to get my thoughts out, so I'll have to continue later.

milagroisall

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:55 PM

MILAGROISALL

Ladron? Estas escribiendo del Cristobal? Nada mas que ladron de mi corazon.

Sorry for the long lag in response time. Poets? Octavio Paz, Neruda, Gerald Stern, Antonio Machado, Sylvia Plath, Louise Gluck, Issa, Basho and Buson...
just getting back to it, so lots more to read.

I'm a half-breed. Dominican father, white mother by way of Queens, New York, that great melting pot of the USA. My Spanish could be better, working on that...

Don't want to throw the thread off, so continue with the great turn this topic has taken. Going to hear Daisy Fried read her poems tonight

milagroisall

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:32 PM

Milagro,

"...ladron de mi corazon!"

How very nicely put! I surely would never disparage the good Cristobal, as I'm sure you must know.

Sadly, as I expected, I'm not familiar with the poets you named. My personal favorites among the world of literature run to John Steinbeck, some Richard Bach, Conan Doyle, George Frederick Ruxton, and Thoreau.

Like you, I won't distort this thread further. Thanks for your kind response, and best wishes.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Cavalier, you said:
"Science, by its nature, relies on a psychically empty, inanimate world on the other side of our five senses. Science may not be afraid, but psychic phenomena definitely threaten science as we know it at its core."

I agree. That was very well written, as was all of your post. However, you implied something to which I take exception, and that is: "...the universe tends to show what it wants to show--and to whom."

Ruxton, compañero, thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I say exactly what I mean to say.

The second quote, yeah, not so much. There's a far more complicated explanation for the context than I feel up to going into right now. Suffice it to say that I've been reading Rudolf Steiner again.

I found your post really very beautiful; made me want to drop everything, jump in the car and get clear of all this for a while. Remind me why any sane creature would live down here in the electro-magnetic furnace, would ya?

You are quite right, anyone can develope their psychic awareness in exactly the way you describe. Psychic awareness is such a natural part of interaction with the non-human world; it is part of the basic kit all animals have for negotiating reality. We in the post-industrial west have been so long surounded with the things of man that many of us have utterly forgotten our natures. Isn't that astonishing?

Thanks again for sharing another side of Ruxton with us.

P.S: I'm holding you to that "More later" of yours.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:32 PM

CUNKNOWN

Quote:
Seems that there are two viewpoints that are miles apart; the world is alive and we are inextricably bound to it all-spirit, matter, thought, and heart OR the world is not alive and through our intellect we can make sense out of it all.

It seems that I am one of the few people in this discussion presenting an opposition opinion, but I reject the idea that I am necessarily saying the latter thing in the quote here.

I was mainly reacting to the idea that science is at all frightened of psychic phenomena, something which is demonstratably false (ask any scientist). I am also reacting to the idea that paranormal phenomena threaten science--if true, these phenomena would simply be fit into the already existing scientific framework (which is well established). The odds that the various psychic claims of people on this board (and elsewhere) are real should seem small to any rational, dispassionate person. The odds that the claims are real, -and- that they will point to a flaw in some well-established scientific theory are so remote as to be not worth discussion.

Quote:
It makes me so angry that ignorance like yours is the norm in the western world; that you can waltz in here with your false certainty and label someone like Knibblet a charlatan or a fool and not realize that you're simply carrying on the work of Popes and inquisitors and despots throughout history.

Wow! Something of an over-reaction, huh?

It's a sad state of affairs when reason is labeled as ignorance and those who defend it are said to be despots. Freedom and rational thought go hand in hand. Reason is actually a liberating force--you've got things backwards. The ideals of freedom and democracy our country was founded on were inspired by the Enlightenment.

Quote:
P.S: Sorry, to come off all harsh like this, but I'd really like you to think twice before you post this kind of insensitive and ignorant attack in the future. My intent is not that you censor yourself, but that you be mindful of the emotional violence you may commit and post without reflexively discounting highly personal information people have been generous enough to share with you.
HKCavalier

I wasn't attacking anyone. I certainly won't let you bully me into silence by using charged phrases like "emotional violence." Try again.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:45 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by CUnknown:
I wasn't attacking anyone. I certainly won't let you bully me into silence by using charged phrases like "emotional violence." Try again.

So telling people they're lying about they're experiences based on nothing more than it hasn't happened to you and one incident where someone has lied is what, exactly?

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:39 AM

MILAGROISALL

CUknown,

"The odds that the various psychic claims of people on this board (and elsewhere) are real should seem small to any rational, dispassionate person. The odds that the claims are real, -and- that they will point to a flaw in some well-established scientific theory are so remote as to be not worth discussion."

So, could you allow the irrational and passionate persons on this board to share their anecdotes as there is nothing to discuss?

def: anecdote- a short interesting or humorous account of a real or fictitious incident.

There's nothing here that's really threatening to reason, democracy, freedom or the ideals of the Enlightenment. You could just interpret it as story-telling and let it go at that.

milagro

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 9:52 AM

CUNKNOWN:
"The odds that the various psychic claims of people on this board (and elsewhere) are real should seem small to any rational, dispassionate person. The odds that the claims are real, -and- that they will point to a flaw in some well-established scientific theory are so remote as to be not worth discussion."

and "Something of an over-reaction, huh?" NO. It was a great underreaction.

Get you head out of your ass, dolt, look stuff up, and do me a favor and go away while you do so. You are not rational. Your "opinions" are nothing more than embarrassing admissions of your own limitations. They add zero to the discussions and only serve to waste the time of those willing to share and learn from this thread.

You FAILED to respond to my remark on remote viewing, so go here:
http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html
or here:
http://www.militaryremoteviewers.com/cia_remote_viewing_sri.htm [same material]
or here: http://www.crystalinks.com/remote_viewing.html [techniques, with more links]

Look into things before you come here with your pants down and embarrass us all again. Find out the vastness of your shameful limitations.

[extract]
"In July 1995 the CIA declassified, and approved for release, documents revealing its sponsorship in the 1970s of a program at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, to determine whether such phenomena as remote viewing "might have any utility for intelligence collection" [1]. Thus began disclosure to the public of a two-decade-plus involvement of the intelligence community in the investigation of so-called parapsychological or psi phenomena. Presented here by the program's Founder and first Director (1972 - 1985) is the early history of the program, including discussion of some of the first, now declassified, results that drove early interest."

"...the integrated results appear to provide unequivocal evidence of a human capacity to access events remote in space and time, however falteringly, by some cognitive process not yet understood."

CUNKNOWN, do you really think the CIA and DOD would have looked so seriously into this if there were nothing in it? Are you unaware that most pets are able to know when their owners are coming or going, or thinking about them? Can you be so totally blind, not to mention ignorant?

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 9:59 AM

Cavalier,

Thank you ever so much, amigo, for your kind words. I hope to be able to add to my post at a later date, but it might well be a long time later. Business matters press.

All best,

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Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:54 AM