Abu Ghraib: round two by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Abu Ghraib: round two

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, February 18, 2006 09:22
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Saturday, February 18, 2006 6:57 AM

Okay, more photos exclusive to Salon here:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/
I think you have to be a member or get a 'day pass' or something...

Once again I see mis-management from the TOP down.
At best- a huge embarrasment.
At worst- murder.

The Iraquis in these pictures can be good men, or butchers, the point is why must we sink this low?

We're making monsters.

And before I hear any "That's not REAL torture" from anyone, try getting tied prone over a bedframe for 24 hours, and tell me how ya feel after.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:34 AM

DREAMTROVE

Chris,

It's so much worse than you think.

Shortly after the first round of pictures were published some Iraqis published pictures that they had taken of 'street' torture.

First, I need to explain the concept. Abu Ghraib had rules. I know it may not seem like this, but it did. These rules said you can do XYZ when torturing suspects. In all fairness, to say 'prisoner' or 'detainee' really implies that the people in the pictures have done something wrong. This may or may not be true, but they are suspects, they could be innocent. In most instances, these are people whose names have been given to us by Iraqis, and then we went out and picked them up. There were some cases where that Iraqi who gave us the info might have been fulfilling a personal vendetta, might have intentionally been giving us false information, or might have given us false information he deeply believed to be true. On more than one occassion there were cases of mistaken identity, where we picked up the wrong Abu Mohammed.

So, there were rules to what you could do when torturing the suspect. These rules were very very lax, and allowed you to violate every internation torture ban. But there were rules. There were things you weren't allowed to do.

If you wanted to do those things, you would do them outside the compound. This is the street torture scenario. You find some Iraqis and put them in the back of a truck, or corner them on a back street, or in some building.

Sometimes this was done in the open, and I've seen pictures taken by Iraqis of coalition forces dismembering Iraqi children. One teenager had his penis blown off by an American or British soldier who stuck a shockgun down the kids pants and pulled the trigger. This was after he had been kicked to the ground. Allies rounded up kids as young as 12 or 14, pulled their teeth out, cut off their fingers, etc.

We responded to the appearance of these promply by shutting down all Iraqi internet access. But this cat is seriously out of this bag.

The idea that we are anything other than Nazi orcs is nothing but spin. IMHO. I'm not up for arguing this with any of the pro-Bush segment which might remain, so let me make this perfectly clear.

If you are considering stepping forward to defend this as 'not really torture' or as 'didn't really happen' ... Don't. Anyone who does this is attempt to cover up for inhuman behavior of the sort that America has tried to root out for decades, and has fought against, and if you do, you are permanently putting yourself down in my book as a Nazi Orc, yourself.

I have also watched a lot of these Senate hearings, and it's my firm belief that this is a widespread systemic problem that stems from an executive order at the top level, and by top I mean Dick Cheney. Here's who else appears to be directly involved:

Donald Rumsfeld, who objected to the policy, but in his compliance and complacency and not fighting it, going to the press with the information, or at least to congress, has some guilt by association.

Alberto Gonzalez, who sought the legal support for the idea, and collected and sumarized the opinions in the most liberal positive way possible.

Jay Bybee, Alan Dershowitz and others who gave the legal opinion that this was a good idea, and told the executive how to avoid the law.

General Myers, Miller and others who forwarded this policy down the Chain of Command.

President George W. Bush. I would have to say, even if a man is a chimpanzee, if intelligent educated men tell that chimpanzee to put his stamp of approval on a policy which is basically evil, even if they claim it to be good, if the chimpanzee does not recognize it as evil, then he, too, is guilty.

And thanks for reminding me of this detail, I was ready to make a compromise, but these people really need to be tried sentences and shot if possible. (And if guilty.)

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:43 AM

CHRISISALL

Guess we're making really bad monsters...

What would Rambo do...Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:29 AM

DREAMTROVE

WWJT

Who would Jesus Torture?

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:22 AM

CHRISISALL