War Zone by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

War Zone

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Sunday, March 5, 2006 15:47
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VIEWED: 743
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Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:35 PM

I've just noticed we've gotten too hostile. I didn't used to disagree so violently with everyone here, and neither did the rest of you. Things have boiled over and need to cool off. This is a thread to post things that aren't attacks.

Let's not fight over things we vehemently disagree with one other on where there is no hope of convincing the other. There are a lot of pointless battles that go on like ones between me and fletch, that are never going to do any good because we are never going to move each other from our position.

We need to begin to recognize, and all of us need to do so, something called "not us."

There is me, who supports my positions, and then there is not me who doesn't. Some folks are lefties, and disagree with me on abortion. Arguing it would be a real waste of time. We dont' waste that time. Yay us. But we do waste a lot of time.

We have differing opinions. I think Bush is evil. that's my new position. It might change. At the moment, it's based on a few things, but it all more or less comes down to this: Saddam Hussein was evil, we know this because he let his people die rather than sacrafice his own position as president. Would Bush/Cheney do the same? You bet your ass they would. Ergo, Bush is as bad as Saddam. But we shouldn't hurl insults at each other can ridicule each other.

If we tried, we could debate in a civilized manner. We can avoid debating those things which we disagree too much on. If someone thinks Bush is the Son of God, then there's really little point to have that discussion at all. There are lots of other things. I'm sure me and Fletch could have many discussions about other things than whether or not socialism is evil, or whether or not Bush is some form of socialist, or the meanings of words.

I think earlier on there was a thread about could a society without law exist and run smoothly. I think Chris posted it. That was an interesting discussion in which few pies were tossed. What really brought this to my mind was that there was an abortion post, and not to throw a pie at the person who posted it, it was fair, there's was a news item, but abortion is a war zone. I guess I'm saying, doctrine of containment. It's a good idea. Let's stop chucking pies and dead rats at one another, and try to discuss this stuff like at least less rabid wild animals.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 5:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We have differing opinions. I think Bush is evil. that's my new position ... If someone thinks Bush is the Son of God, then there's really little point to have that discussion at all.

Well, there's your problem right there.

You limit everyone to one of two positions - Bush is Evil vs. Bush is the Son of God, and assume that if they don't vote "evil" they vote "SoG". This gets pretty close to the old "Them and Us" trick. Allows you to de-humanize those who don't agree with everything you believe. Makes it easy to use stuff like "Nazis" or "...on a blind rampage of zion.", or "I don't ever bash the U.S. I bash stupid people, and there were at least 58 million of them in 2004."

Not so.

Folks here have all sorts of points of view between your two extremes. See:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=18176&m=255550#255550

Not black and white. Shades of grey...

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2006 8:08 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I've just noticed we've gotten too hostile.

I agree. Hey, I've just noticed the sky is blue. I've just noticed that objects in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Well, what do you know, its cold outside...in Cleveland...in February. I just noticed that the things I put in my office refridgerator stay cold and things in the microwave get hot. Well I'll be...this here switch makes the whole room light up. Gosh, when my phone rings...somebody talks to me when I pick it up. These deliberately chosen letters form words which make up sentences which form a means of communicating my thoughts in an electronic format for all the world to share...who'd a thunk it?

H

...(no offense

)

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Friday, February 24, 2006 2:15 PM

DREAMTROVE

Hero,

Thanks, none taken. Here it's F&*king cold. It should be warming up but it's not. I spent all day book shopping. Tomatoes are sort of still small and struggling because it's not warming up and the sun isn't shining, they're still indoors of course.

My attempt to branch out into domain name sales is not going well. Books still sell. This is the time when my no horse town is less wintery picturesque and more sold of melted slush and ice. I guess not to much going on here. Ever.

Here's my latest gripe though. I go to the grocery store and get some flour, because the flour in the bin has gotten a little buggy. So I get a bag and bring it home, take out a scoop, and then I'm just caught staring at it. It wasn't like I was holding a cup of flour with some maggots in it, I was holding a cup of maggots with some flour in it. There were about 30 more clinging to the outside coughing up flour. Needless ot say, I went and got more flour, but there's a problem I see here. Bag o' maggots is a product which one can buy on the shelf in a store. In fact it's maybe more common then bag o' flour. I think this is to some degree a result of no one baking anymore, and people just eating prepackaged processed food.

Since this is still RWED, here's some real world stuff:

1. The japanese girl took the gold, i saw the skate., I haven't seen sasha and irina falling on their asses, like their leaders do. I like both skaters actually. Bad week, Kwon also, assed out early.

2. I guess I don't see the Bush spectrum. I see "kill everyone, take all the money" and "kill some of them, take some of the money" isn't really a spectrum. I don't really want to argue Bush, I guess I always assumed support of Bush was really fear of liberals. Actual support of Bush I find hard to fathom. But I don't want this to become the all consuming argument, it cheapens everything else. I'm sure the democrats will have their chance again to have their crook who they despise but feel obligated to support in the whitehouse soon enough, I can't see how we're going to pull out of this to win in '08. I'm open to suggestions though.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 3:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Here's my latest gripe though. I go to the grocery store and get some flour, because the flour in the bin has gotten a little buggy. So I get a bag and bring it home, take out a scoop, and then I'm just caught staring at it. It wasn't like I was holding a cup of flour with some maggots in it, I was holding a cup of maggots with some flour in it. There were about 30 more clinging to the outside coughing up flour. Needless ot say, I went and got more flour, but there's a problem I see here. Bag o' maggots is a product which one can buy on the shelf in a store. In fact it's maybe more common then bag o' flour. I think this is to some degree a result of no one baking anymore, and people just eating prepackaged processed food.

Soylent Green! It's...weevils?

Yech! After speaking sharply with my grocer (feedback is very important, both positive and negative) I'd run out and buy some large Tupperwareish containers for my flour. I keep my biscuit flour and Madame Geezer keeps her bread flour in them and we've been bug free for years.

Quote:
I guess I don't see the Bush spectrum. I see "kill everyone, take all the money" and "kill some of them, take some of the money" isn't really a spectrum.

I see another politician. Not a Messiah or a Dr. Evil, just your average pol. Although Cheney as Mini-me would be cute (or maybe Bush to Dick's Dr. Evil?).

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2006 3:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT, you may find this hard to believe but you have actually changed my position on the goodness of big government. Here are others who have changed my thinking- and the relevent topics:

Pirate News: real sickos might actually be in power
HKCavalier: intutition can be very powerful
Chrisisall: humor can move more than sarcasm (still trying to learn that one!)
Rue: turn your filters down
Citizen: young folks can be urbane

And a whole host of others with whom I both agree and disagree. As Geezer knows, I've been involved in some very... errr... intense discussions.

Flamed a few folks myself when my temper rose. But it's not all for nothing. I've seen people actually change their minds here, MOSTLY because of experience but at least partly because of what they've read.

This is a rare board. The FF fans are weirdly diverse. But even the outbursts are not for nothing.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 5:03 PM

DREAMTROVE

I like the nature of this.

I think I'd say two people here who probably had the greatest impact on me

Chrisisall has shown me that the soft spoken voice has more power than the forceful bellow.
Pirate News has shown that a lot of research reveals things you might not want to know, but should anyway.
Liminocity has shown me that the seemly peacenik left has actually thought things out, and is also not anchored to a dogmatic doctrine, but is pragmatically trying to find a solution.

I'm sure the rest of you have contributed to my thinking, just can't hammer it down right away. I know even people I have violent arguments with like Geezer and Fletch have opened my eyes to things on more that one occassion.

I'm not going to go all I thank the academy, but if I respond to your posts, it's a sign that I care what you think, even if my posts seem overtly hostile. I think at some point I said something about I thought I was most like Jayne, he's the guy I identify with. I guess, there's a little of the rest of them, I find a lot of occassion in real life to use Mal-isms. I sometimes find myself adding to things like 'maybe you oughtta see to that' to statements.

Anyway, I get why we fight, but I think that we should try to reel it in, and focus on something more positive. I'm still stunned that people support Bush, and I don't know what to say about it, I mean, in firefly terms, Bush is clearly part of the Alliance, Blair is part of the Alliance, I've considered that the Alliance might specifically be Bush-Blair, rather than Bush Clinton, but Joss at other times has had obvious anti-Clinton moments, so maybe it's Bush-Blair-Clinton-Communist China. It's definitely not Al Qaeda. I'm pretty sure Reavers are Al Qaeda. Not that everything has to be a parallel, but at any point when someone decides to tell a story, or retell an old story, there is a reason. Usually in retelling, it's something relevant to current events. New stories, such as Harry Potter, might be less current-event driven, but resurrecting the western is done for a reason, because it speaks to our current situation, specifically: the loss of individual freedom. Reavers from the story are in the role of indians in the old western, but it's clearly not an intentional slight to the indians.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 5:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My problem here is Argentinean ants. They get into everything. My solution is to have absolutely everything in the frig, and go to the store often.

I commiserate on the tomatoes. When I lived in WNY and grew a garden (just a home garden) I started my tomatoes, eggplant etc early indoors. Your post reminded me of the dreary cold days with the little plants struggling near the dim grey window that had a layer of settling cold air in front. I can still smell the cold and see those struggling pale plants.

I used to bake everything until I found I have a wheat allergy. If I had had to put up with larval flours I would have given up baking sooner. At the time I used to get my flours from the N Buffalo food coop. It was clean and fresh and made the most delicious bread.

edited to add: not a recipe, but my favorite bread had ww flour for flavor and crumbly texture; a little high gluten flour to hold it together; whole corn corn flour which was yellow, smelled and tasted like butter and was soft as silk; some whole grain rye flour for bite; yogurt and honey. I'd bake a few loaves at a time, and one loaf was just for the day it came out of the oven. We'd eat it all with sweet butter before it had a chance to cool.

-----------

Even though I don't participate as much as I'd like, I find the discussions refreshing (though I do admit to getting riled when attacked).

The people I know I've known for a long time. They include co-workers as well as family. We can finish each others sentences. That's boring.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 5:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
My problem here is Argentinean ants. They get into everything. My solution is to have absolutely everything in the frig, and go to the store often.

You need an ant-proof case. and then you need to read Memoir in Ant-proof Case by Mark Helprin. It relates (tangentially) to South American ants.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2006 5:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Geezer, re: Bush

I see another politician.

I see Cheney IS Mini-Me.

But clearly we disagree, so let's not argue the point until one of us has new information. That's the rule I've been trying to follow lately, it's a logical compromise between the fallacy of 'agree to disagree' and all out war.

I do the tupperware thing, but it doesn't help if the bugs are already in the flour. Those bugs didn't come from this old house, they were in the packaged store product. right there on the shelf, bags o' maggots.

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Friday, February 24, 2006 7:23 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HKCavalier: intutition can be very powerful

Speaking of... is HKCavalier still alive? Does anybody on here have any contact with him? His last post was on the 16th of December (his 'State of the Art Psychic Musings' thread). I thought he had some great opinions and it's a shame he isn't around anymore.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I've been wondering the same myself.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 3:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

HK seems to disappear and come back, disappear and come back. But the times between appearances seem to get longer, and appearances get shorter.

I hope HK is OK.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 3:47 PM

CHRISISALL

I'll bet HK got tired of the bs, I know I sometimes do, but then I remember I'm not here to change anyone's mind about anything (well, usually...), I'm here to glean stuff and have some fun.
RL probably just limits his time right now...

Missing the "Wherever you go..." dude Chrisisall

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