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Originally posted by piratejenny:
How do you know it doesn't exist, I'm just curious, you say it doesn't exist, it has never existed and it will never exist. The ancient summarians say it does exist. How do you know this.

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Originally posted by reaverman:

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Originally posted by piratejenny:
How do you know it doesn't exist, I'm just curious, you say it doesn't exist, it has never existed and it will never exist. The ancient summarians say it does exist. How do you know this.

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As I already said, it would have been visible for at least one half of the Earth's revolution around the sun. No one has spotted it yet. Also, the orbit is just too eliptical. it would be like swinging a brick with a rubber band. The brick's inertia is pulling on the rubber band (the sun's gravity). If you stretch the rubber band far enough, the brick's inertia becomes too much, and the rubber band snaps. Danfan brought up the Oort Cloud's distance from the sun being much greater than Planet X's supposedly is. That is simply because of the masses of the Oort cloud objects. You can swing a pebble on a rubber band a hell of a lot farther than a brick. Lower mass means less inertia for gravity to overcome.

And as for the Ancient Sumerians, they said a lot of things existed that obviously dont. Their gods, for one. I think you just cant face the fact that thousands of years of belief could be wasted.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Originally posted by PirateJenny:
Oh geeze, actually you can refute something all you want, but if you are refuting something you have no knowelege of, then that in my opinion does not make a logical argument.
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Zecharia has about 8 or 9 books out on the subject I've read all of them except for his latest, all I can tell you is that the sumarians based on ancient text were aware of D.N.A, if your interested read the books and you'll find out how.

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You show me some of the evidence that proves the existence of Planet X, or that Sumerians had knowledge of DNA and I might be interested in reading more, I see no reason to do it because I should have faith in Stichen.

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You haven't quite grasped this concept of intelligent debate,

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Originally posted by reaverman:
Also, the orbit is just too eliptical. it would be like swinging a brick with a rubber band. The brick's inertia is pulling on the rubber band (the sun's gravity). If you stretch the rubber band far enough, the brick's inertia becomes too much, and the rubber band snaps. Danfan brought up the Oort Cloud's distance from the sun being much greater than Planet X's supposedly is. That is simply because of the masses of the Oort cloud objects. You can swing a pebble on a rubber band a hell of a lot farther than a brick. Lower mass means less inertia for gravity to overcome.

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Originally posted by PirateJenny:
How did the summarians know about D.N.A, actually I never stated that anywhere in my posting you did

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ALSO Originally posted by PirateJenny:
for example the snake in the bible is Lucifer or the tempter, but really in summarian text Enki's symbol was the snake, and also the symbol for D.N.A which was known in those times,

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but yes via the Anunnakki the summarians were aware of D.N.A , there are about 8-9 book out by Zecharia Stichen of which I've read all but one and not anytime recently, so my advice to you if you want to know about summarians and D.N.A read the books, you might want to jump ahead and read "The Cosmic code", but if you haven't read his 1rst book "The 12th Planet" your not going to have much background so read that one 1rst if your so inclined.

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Who ever said you should have Faith in Stitchen I know I certainly never did

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And when did this all become about you, Please tell me how and why

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I'm not going to show you anything, because I don't have too, and more importantly I have no desire to.

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I'm not trying to prove anything to you or anyone, my posting this thread was never about that, you sound like you have a problem all I can say is don't make it mine, I was wanting to discuss this with those who were familar with his work, and hopefully at least were open to his work wether they agree with it or not.

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anyway if anyone wants to discuss the coming of Nibiru / the Mayan calendar or anything related, I'm interested

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I happen to agree with Mr. Stitchen and think highly of his work, no amount of debating that with you or anyone is going to change that, if you don't thats on you, but I really resent you coming at me telling me to show you something, if you are intrested you can go to any book store an purchase one of his books or go to the library and check one out, its that simple, I'm not trying to make up someones mind or form an opinion for someone about his works not for you or anyone else, you'll have to do that all on your own.

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Debate till your hearts content I have no problem with that, but you can't have an intelligent debate with someone who lacks the information on which they are debating, so what I'm saying to you is if thats what you want to do come back when you have the information, because I'm not going to provide it for you!

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If I wanted to, and I don't!! I could weed through one of his books and weed something out, but in what context, without the background it would really be a waste of your time and mine.

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And not everything is about a debate, nor does it have to be, and since your at a disadvantage because you haven't read any of his books it would be hard to debate with you anyway, especially when you want me to do all the work, and provide you with all the material , thats just not my style.

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Originally posted by reaverman:

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Originally posted by rklenseth:
A lot of end of times beliefs center around this Planet X and what it is. But anyways, you're going to see a lot more of these kinds of things up until 2012 (which is when the Mayan calender ends) because currently a lot of groups believe that will be the date the world will end. Some even believe that it has already begun here in 2006. A Jewish rabbi (the one that supposedly predicted the Asian tsunami before it happend six months before it did) recently warned that 2006 will begin the end of times and that things will begin to go downhill from here real fast. Some would look at the all the weird weather patterns and the escalating tensions with Iran (the possibility of nuclear war) as signs that this is beginning. A spiritual leader in Native American culture recently warned that there would be major hurricanes, earthquakes, and tornadoes hitting the US in 2006 and also claimed a tsumani would wipe out Los Angeles and that a comet would hit Earth by the end of 2006.

But you have to take all of this with a grain of salt. Could it be true? That is for you to decide. If it is what the hell does it matter because then we are all most likely screwed anyways.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.]

First of all, people have been saying "this year is the beginning of the end times!" every year for the last 2,000 years. It hasn't happenned yet.

Secondly, saying that tornados, earthquakes, hurricanes and tsunamis will batter the U.S. or the world in general is like saying "the sun will come up tomorrow". It is bound to happen, end times or not.

As for specific disasters, like a tsunami wiping out LA and a comet hitting the Earth this year, do you know how many people have been predicting that sort of thing for over a century? Every year has its own End of Days Crazy Wannabe Prophets. So far, extremely few of them have been even close to correct, and statistically, someone has to guess correctly sometime, so predicting something before it happens means nothing except that they made a really lucky guess. This Rabbi and this spiritual leader know nothing more about the future than you or me.

The sky is NOT falling, folks! Don't panic!

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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You make a very good point here in that even if someone was correct and truly capable of such power to see the future there are far to many 'false prophets' for any majority of people (bar people involved in fanatical religions) so in the end we would all be doomed anyways. If you're religious, and I don't know if you are and don't much care one way or another (that's your business and beliefs), then in the Bible it warns very strongly against 'false prophets' which led to much persecution throughout history of people who claimed to see the future because of the fact that many people believed that it was the work of Satan or some sort of evil working to mislead people so that when the future is clear we will be clouded by so many different versions. So to say, and this really only works if your Catholic and agnostic (And you can count other Christian groups like Methodists but you cannot count Christians like Mormons who have a clear belief of what will happen), perhaps Satan has succeeded in clouding our minds so that we can't see what the future is or at least the signs. It could be as clear as day but because there are so many other endings (some which have come and gone) it has either made people believe that all of them are untrue and the rest of us have to make a chose as to which ending it is going to be and which we are going to prepare for. That's to say if there is an ending and there is any purpose in preparing for it. The Bible never says there will be an end (depending on your interpretation; Catholics don't believe in the Rapture and their is still discussions of what the texts of Daniel and Revelation actually mean). There will just be some terrible times. Remember that the Torah ended when the Messiah would come and many Jewish people believe that Jesus Christ was that Messiah and the world didn't end though there were very terrible times especially for early Christians. Those people became Christians and beleive that Christ will return one day to 'save' us again. So when or if dependent on your beliefs Christ returns to fight the Anti-Christ with truth doesn't mean that is the end of the world but could mean a new beginning. Although I can be completely wrong in my thinking. And the texts of Daniel and Revelation were written by prophets and added to the same grouping of texts that warned of 'false prophets' so essentially we could be in trouble right from the beginning. There is also the fact that because the Bible especially the First Testament or Torah have been translated from many different religions over the years and not all languages are the same and interpretations and translations of words have changed over the centuries we may be right now completely interpreting the Bible wrong anyways.

And onto your second point real quick. I actually pointed out though that we are currently in a period where more of these events are happening and are happening at a far more destructive nature than we have seen in a long time. That's not to say that we are simply in a cycle but it will be used as fuel to a fire for those that believe the end is coming.

But needless to say it is common belief among scientists that the world as we know it will end some day. Either by comet, super volcano, the poles reversing their polarity, the sun exploding, solar flare etc... but they don't dare try to predict that these events will be the end as these events have the capability but there is always a chance of survival. So to say the sky isn't falling isn't exactly true because somewhere in the future the end has been written we just don't know what it will be, when it will be, and probably will never predict until it is too late.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Except Danfan all you have done is describe an orbit using Keplers laws. You have not actually calculated if this is a sable orbit by including Newtons laws of gravitation. What you did was describe an elipse and then say "well the far end is not outside the oort cloud so that's ok...." That isn't enough.

Oort cloud objects are bits of matter effectively just hanging in space, out there the suns gravity is too weak to pull them in so they sit...

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Kepler provided a kinematic mathematical model of the empirical observations, which Newton then interpreted using calculus and his new physics.

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A comet with a period of more than 200 years and as much as several million years. Long-period comets, together with Halley-type comets, are now believed to come from the Oort Cloud, an enormous reservoir of frozen cometary nuclei orbiting the Sun at a distance of tens of thousands of astronomical units.

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In 1950 Jan Oort noticed that

1. no comet has been observed with an orbit that indicates that it came from interstellar space,

2. there is a strong tendency for aphelia of long period comet orbits to lie at a distance of about 50,000 AU, and

3. there is no preferential direction from which comets come.

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Hyakutake is a long period comet. Before its most recent passage through the solar system, its orbital period was about 15,000 years, but the gravitational influence of the giant planets has now increased this to 72,000 years.

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Originally posted by danfan:
Reaverman...

I still take issue with this. I interpret what you are saying to mean that you believe that any object of sufficient mass will break an eccentric enough orbit just because of its mass, with no other external influence needed. This violates the mathematics of orbital mechanics. Further, I think that your use of the "brick/rubber band" analogy leads to a false conclusion. Gravity does not behave like a rubber band. Gravity is a distortion in space time caused by mass. A far more appropriate analogy would be to consider gravity like an incline in space time resulting from the mass causing a "low spot" in space-time. Rubber is a material with an elastic modulus and a concommitant point of elastic failure. It is this point of elastic failure that causes the brick to break free from a rubber band. "Elastic modulus/failure" does not behave the same way as an "incline." The latter analogy is the more appropriate one.

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Chernobyl and the Bible

Because of a controversial translation of "chernobyl" as wormwood, some people believe that the Chernobyl accident was mentioned in the Bible:

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And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
-Revelation 8:10-11

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The story appears to have spread to the West with a New York Times article by Serge Schmemann (Chernobyl Fallout: Apocalyptic Tale, July 25, 1986) in which an unnamed "prominent Russian writer" was quoted as claiming the Ukrainian word for wormwood was chernobyl.

The name of the city comes from the Ukrainian word for mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris), which is chornobyl. As a result, chornobyl has been translated by some to simply mean wormwood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_accident

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Originally posted by citizen:
Since you've been pretty unwarrantedly confrontational and insulting to me I might as well return the favour.

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Originally posted by PirateJenny:
How did the summarians know about D.N.A, actually I never stated that anywhere in my posting you did

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ALSO Originally posted by PirateJenny:
for example the snake in the bible is Lucifer or the tempter, but really in summarian text Enki's symbol was the snake, and also the symbol for D.N.A which was known in those times,

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Off too a bad start there, I understand that when you’re just free associating, typing whatever nonsense comes into your head you may forget what you've actually written.

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but yes via the Anunnakki the summarians were aware of D.N.A , there are about 8-9 book out by Zecharia Stichen of which I've read all but one and not anytime recently, so my advice to you if you want to know about summarians and D.N.A read the books, you might want to jump ahead and read "The Cosmic code", but if you haven't read his 1rst book "The 12th Planet" your not going to have much background so read that one 1rst if your so inclined.

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These are a lot of words to say: "I don't know".

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Who ever said you should have Faith in Stitchen I know I certainly never did

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You sound like most of those with blind faith:
"Just read the scriptures and your eyes will be opened". Not that you realise this, the faithful never do.

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And when did this all become about you, Please tell me how and why

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Oh, good try no dice but nice try there. You told me "go read the books" I say "give me a reason why I should" and that's making it all about me huh?

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I'm not going to show you anything, because I don't have too, and more importantly I have no desire to.

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And you have nothing to show...

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I'm not trying to prove anything to you or anyone, my posting this thread was never about that, you sound like you have a problem all I can say is don't make it mine, I was wanting to discuss this with those who were familar with his work, and hopefully at least were open to his work wether they agree with it or not.

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anyway if anyone wants to discuss the coming of Nibiru / the Mayan calendar or anything related, I'm interested

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I'm trying to discuss anything related, as you asked, your the one who's got the problem with that, I can only assume that's because I'm not licking your and Stichen's arse and proclaiming how wonderful and right you both are. All I did is ask a question, one you've refused to answer and then began to spit the dummy and throw your toys out of the pram.

So here's what that suggests to me:
You can't adequately answer the question, and sub-consciously you know that. Cognitive Dissonance sets in between your inability to answer questions and your desire to believe Stitchen is correct, your desire to believe in a creator, without a religion getting involved. This causes frustration and anger, which you choose to vent at those who don't reaffirm your beliefs.

Your desire to believe in a creator, but your obvious vehemence against religion suggests you were possibly brought up in a very religious, possibly devout environment, and this is some kind of rebellion.

Point is I was truly prepared for an intelligent discussion, and I was prepared to listen to what you had to say, you truly WERE NOT prepared for any discussion whatsoever (Hint: I'm sorry but only letting those who agree with you speak isn't a discussion), and your truly not prepared to listen to what anyone has to say, unless you agree with what that is, of course. Wow, are you in training to be a dictator or something, my my you must really hate that pesky freedom of speech thing. I happen to like freedom of speech, especially since it obviously upsets the tin-foil hat crazies like you.

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I happen to agree with Mr. Stitchen and think highly of his work, no amount of debating that with you or anyone is going to change that, if you don't thats on you, but I really resent you coming at me telling me to show you something, if you are intrested you can go to any book store an purchase one of his books or go to the library and check one out, its that simple, I'm not trying to make up someones mind or form an opinion for someone about his works not for you or anyone else, you'll have to do that all on your own.

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Like I said, only those who are willing to say "PJ and that guy are right!" apply, anyone capable of independent thought need not.

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Debate till your hearts content I have no problem with that, but you can't have an intelligent debate with someone who lacks the information on which they are debating, so what I'm saying to you is if thats what you want to do come back when you have the information, because I'm not going to provide it for you!

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Yes, and since you and Zachy boy don't have a clue what your talking about I have to agree:
Zacharia Stichen is making it all up. Everything he has in his books is psudo-religious bullshit, there you are honey.

Oh and if you're not prepared to debate a subject, which your obviously and by your own admission not, it's probably best not to post a thread about it in the RWED for Christ-sakes.

I mean what the fuck did you expect?

Hero to bake you cookies and AURaptor to fall at your feet professing how you and Zachy are right and how wrong of him to follow Bush?

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If I wanted to, and I don't!! I could weed through one of his books and weed something out, but in what context, without the background it would really be a waste of your time and mine.

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You seem to think that the conclusion that you are unwilling to back up anything you say is a new one to me…

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And not everything is about a debate, nor does it have to be, and since your at a disadvantage because you haven't read any of his books it would be hard to debate with you anyway, especially when you want me to do all the work, and provide you with all the material , thats just not my style.

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No, your style is too post any old crazy shit that floats by and get upset if any one dares to ask you a question about it.

At least PirateNews can make up his own crazy conspiracy theories; you have to use other peoples.

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a discussion), and your truly not prepared to listen to what anyone has to say, unless you agree with what that is, of course. Wow, are you in training to be a dictator or something, my my you must really hate that pesky freedom of speech thing. I happen to like freedom of speech, especially since it obviously upsets the tin-foil hat crazies like you.

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Your desire to believe in a creator, but your obvious vehemence against religion suggests you were possibly brought up in a very religious, possibly devout environment, and this is some kind of rebellion.

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I can only assume that's because I'm not licking your and Stichen's arse and proclaiming how wonderful and right you both are. All I did is ask a question, one you've refused to answer and then began to spit the dummy and throw your toys out of the pram.

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and since you and Zachy boy don't have a clue what your talking about I have to agree:
Zacharia Stichen is making it all up. Everything he has in his books is psudo-religious bullshit, there you are honey.

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I mean what the fuck did you expect?

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No, your style is too post any old crazy shit that floats by and get upset if any one dares to ask you a question about it.

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Originally posted by rue:
PJ,

What would make you happy? What is the reply you're looking for?


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Originally posted by nuclearday:
Just to play devil's advocate a bit, PJ. I think Citizen may have a point. If history is any example, the intentions with which you create a thread, and what it turns out to be are often very different things. (Look through half of the threads in the RWED here and I think you'll see what I mean :)

My point is: I've seen many times that if you start a thread about some of your beliefs here, there's going to be alot of people coming by that feel differently than you. If I start a thread saying I love grits with gravy; I'm going to get alot of responses from people who prefer oatmeal.

It's in the nature of these forums that if you post your own viewpoint (especially in regards to your beliefs, religious or not), it's going to spark debate. Whether or not you're up to that is up to you, but it's not going to stop people coming here and doing just that. You can take a page from Dianetics and say "read the book," or you can try to provide some more info and maybe get some people interested.

Okay, that ran long. Sorry. Don't take this as an attack, either. I respect your views as much as anyone else, and am not interested in debating whether Stitchen is right or wrong. Just remember that alot of people are going to do just that. (You gotta admit this isn't exactly a mainstream concept you're putting up here. :)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

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Originally posted by PirateJenny:
and I thought this would be more of a fun thread were people could take a break from all of the mad, politcal drama for awhile an indulge in some strange unfamilar but interesting territory.

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If anyone has been confrontational its you Citizen

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Nor have I ever asked you or anyone to take my word for it, So what is your frack'n problem I never asked anything from you,

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I love freedom of speech and intend on excersising it every chance I get, its you who have the problem

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you know I'm posting on an internet site I have no reason to lie, yes I don't like religion I abhorr it,

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but why is it when I tell you that I wasn't brought up in a religious household , you don't want to take my word for it, this is too funny

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yes you asked a question and I answered you, but you weren't satisfied with my answer and so you got nasty,

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Again this is exactly why I didn't want to debate anything with you, I already knew you thought it was crap!! how would you know if Zecharia Stitchen didn't have a clue or I for that matter, when you haven't even read his books,you call it crap and you've formed an opinion on something you know nothing about, that to me is crap nothing you could say would carry any weight with me given your mind set and attitude, the real question is why should I or would I listen to anything you have to say, you certainly aren't given me any reasons to.

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based on your attitude I didn't exspect anything, still don't

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And as for having blind faith your wrong, I told you I agree with Stitchen's work, doesn't mean its totally correct or that he's right about everything, I just happen to think he's on the right track, if new information comes up that refutes it, or proves it wrong,then I won't ignore it.

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your right Citizen ,I can't adequately answer the question I don't think anything I could say on this subject would be adequate enough for you anyway, nor do I desire to, its been awhile since I read the books so No I can't quote a passage or anything like that, the only thing I can tell you is what I told you before, that via the anunnakki, the summarians were aware of D.N.A, thats the best I can do if its not good enough, Oh well!!

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lol!!yes I can post anything I want to, and I will continue to do so and if you don't like it to bad,I don't care is someone dares to ask me a question, so long as they ask and not demand!!

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no need to bring P.N or anyother posters into this, you seem a little bit of yourself anyway

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Kepler used observations of Mars and then generated formulas to describe what he saw. Newton took gravitation and then worked out WHY Mars moved the way Kepler described. It is the difference between observing nature and understanding it. That's why Newton was a genius.


Imagine if you like that Kepler saw a steam engine and drew a picture of it but that Newton figured out how to build one. What you did was use Keplers drawings to evaluate the engine that Jenny described and then said "yeah that looks ok." Until you work out how to build Jenny's engine you have no idea if it works all you can say is that you can describe it with Kepler's laws.

In short without Newton it's meaningless.

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I will forgo the definition of the elements of the equation for brevity (please hold your applause, I apologize for the size of my other posts).

NOTHING in this equation constitutes a conditional exclusion based upon distance. This equation is valid to the ends of the universe (or as far as the speed of light reaches since the formation of the objects it describes, depending on which scientist you believe). If m1 (mass of the Sun) is sufficiently greater than m2 (mass of a planet or comet), then the gravitational effect of m2 on m1 can be ignored and Newton's equations simplify into Kepler's. Even if you ignore the simplification, the ONLY affect it has on Kepler's equations is that it places center of the Sun off from one of the foci in the ellipse. This results in a trivial change in the calculation of the aphelion of the planet as long as its mass is much less than the Sun's.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:


You will notice that like most forces it is an inverse square law, the force decreases as a square of the distance. Your kepler calculation showed a verylong eliptical orbit so r will get big and f will get very small.

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You also said that escape velocity remains constant.

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I suspect that you would have to take Kepler's equations and the escape velocity ones combine them and integrate for the entire orbit of X. If at any point the orbital speed exceeds solar escape velocity at that point the object will be gone. It's none trivial, which is why I'm not really up to trying it.

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Originally posted by danfan:
Thanks for the book reference. I may try to track it down if I can catch up on my other reading.

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Originally posted by rue:
Never mind!

I should have read further before I posted since my answer was here: "I never really wanted to debate Stitchen's work I just wanted to disguss it"

Hi PJ,


I guess I didn't frame my question well. What I wanted to know was this: do you want to discuss Stichen's writings or the ideas? My guess is that you want to discuss the writings with others who are familiar with them. OTOH I suspect you're not interested in discussing the ideas (the existence of planet X for example), which can be debated without the writings (eg through astronomy, physics etc instead).

Am I correct in this?

Sincerely,
Rue




Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Originally posted by rue:
Physicists solved the 3+ body problem a year or two ago. I don't know the details, but I think it went something like - take the two largest bodies, find the centroid of their gravity contribution, using that as a single body, do the same calculation between it and the third largest body, etc ...

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Originally posted by rue:
Just a caveat: "if you take the centre of mass between the two largest objects, the sun and the earth" The earth is not the second largest (massive) object in the solar system.

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That aside, you need to take into account distance between objects (mutual gravitational interaction). I don't have the exact formula but that is accounted for.

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Physicists solved the 3+ body problem a year or two ago. I don't know the details, but I think it went something like - take the two largest bodies, find the centroid of their gravity contribution, using that as a single body, do the same calculation between it and the third largest body, etc ...

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Originally posted by rue:
Now that you know about it, you can google under your own steam if you really have an interest in pursuing the topic.

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Originally posted by rue:
But if you're just dogging this to make me look 'wrong' b/c I didn't provide all the details, then you're an ass.

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it is plainly said in the Bible that this is to be the course of History until the return of the messiah. the earth IS under the control of negetive, evil forces, and it will lead to a peak, which will be the mark of the beast, and the reign of the anti-christ. and then it will be obvious that Jesus wasnt our enemy, because the most fascist, oppressive, degradive and monstrous entity to ever exist will be opposed to God and Jesus! how can you reconcile the belief that the bible was created to suppress people, when it is the greatest single enemy against those forces? there is no logic in that

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Originally posted by SonofMan:
OK look first off... Bush is not a fundementalist Christian..he is a fundementalist Occultist. if you did some private research, instead of listening to the partisan rhetoric, you might know the difference.

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secondly, i take offense to people attacking the word of God because such attacks are based out of close-minded intolerance and ignorance.

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im not solely using the Bible to prove the Bible. people who are simply unwilling to believe accuse Christians of acting on blind faith, when there is in fact a great deal of evidence that supports our belief.

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the Bible has yet to be contradicted by ANY scientific evidence!

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in fact, there is more evidence that supports the Bible, then actually supports vital componants of the theory of Evolution.

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you sound to me to be an athiest..since you sound intent on disproving a higher being.

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but it can be expected..if you were told compelling evidence, would you even listen??

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now, i will apologize if you perceived me as coming off as holier than thou, but i dont recall insulting you, calling you a sinner, "devil spawn" or anything of the sort. nor did i try to force my belief on you.

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how can people claim christians are forcing their beliefs on us when:

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it is not taught in schools

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it is not referenced in the media

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it has been taken off government buildings

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and that it has been thoroughly attacked by modern new age culture

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who is forcing which belief on who

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i did not inted to attack your belief, nor do i force my belief on others, but people gladly quote Ghandi, or the Dali Lama, and IMO these are merely Men. the bible claims to be the word of the living God. it is proven, sound logic, and it speaks for itself. Jesus explicitly says:

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there are no contradictions, and never does Jesus condone murder, or any kind of hostile aggression, conversion, or anything of the sort.

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i cant re-iterate the entire bible for you..i just ask that you read it, because your arguments against the bible can be refuted by simply reading it

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its just that it sounds to me as if your attacking my beliefs with far more tenacity then I..what is it that you seek to prove?

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if that were true, how did a once predominately christian country become the one of the greatest empires the world has known??

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why would the bill of rights and the constitution reflect biblical ideals, and consequently why is it under attack and being shredded by secular elitists??

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what moral fabric would exist among society, if it was learned that we are nothing more than evolved primates?

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i suspect that is a perversion, introduced through secularism, to condition people to act competitively against eachother, rather than as servants for eachothers benefit

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i dont see how you can claim that secular societies are the sources of benevolence when they are opposed fundementally to the bible, which promotes unbridled peace and acceptance above all else!

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but besides that look at the track record: some of the most oppressive systems on record, soviet and chinese communism and nazi fascism..were those based on christian idealogies?

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Originally posted by SonofMan:
please understand, the reason the sumerians stories pre-date the bibles IS NOT because the bible stole, watered down and misinterpreted the ancient beliefs.

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ever wonder why, despite the acclaimed "break-throughs" in science ... the most basic, fundemental issues of our race, greed, bigotry, murder, diception, war...have been with us since the beginning???

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what is more likely?? that the God of creation caused the flood to wipe out humanity, due to corruption, degeneration, and all the other immoral actions taken place during that time(thanks to the knowledge from the annunaki). or that the flood was cause.. as Sitchin claims...on the part of the annunnaki due to excessive human noisiness??

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if we are merely evolved species, why do we have a conscience at all??

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...islam, catholicism, judiasm..those are religions, but christianity is not.

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but someone can easily cliam to be christian in word, but be an evil person in deed. when you accept the word of Jesus, you change from the inside out...Bush can claim hes a christian, but his actions dont verify his position.

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if there were no religion, what standards would man have to conform his behavior too??

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i know you athiests would rather not have restrictions in your lives..

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Originally posted by SonofMan:
i take offense to people attacking the word of God

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besides the literal treasure trove of political events unfolding ... there is more evidence that supports the Bible, then actually supports vital componants of the theory of Evolution.

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the Bible ... has been proven accurate historically

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i simply gave you an explanation that i have yet to see convincingly refuted

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would you be happy to know that you live, and ya die..and thats it??

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what moral fabric would exist among society, if it was learned that we are nothing more than evolved primates?

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i suspect that is a perversion, introduced through secularism, to condition people to act competitively against eachother, rather than as servants for eachothers benefit..as the Bible suggests.

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Originally posted by SonofMan:
alright, to avoid this cycle of name calling, how about a fresh start.

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you tell me...if you were Christian, how is it possible to defend your belief? apparently we cannot quote any relevant scientific evidence, we cannot quote historical accuracies, or prophecies that were foretold by the bible

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for one..to accept Darwins theory of evolution, you must have evidence that supports both mIcro-evolution, and mAcro-evolution. there is plenty of evidence that supports mIcro-evolution...a Cat or Dog, over a span of generations can possibly evolve into another form of Cat or Dog-like species etc. the Bible supports this claim, since general species of animals have progressed, but remained members of the same species. when life was created, it was created from scratch, like humans..to remain within their own genetic bounderies...which is why you cant inter-breed a horse and a cow.

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abiogenesis, the evolution of life from non-living matter, however, has yet to be proven! scientists have not been able to demonstrate how this metamorphasis takes place..besides a theory of billions of years of random atomic collisions. yet they have no physical, reproducable, or empirical scientific data that concludes, or even supports this assumption.

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not only that, the "cladogram", the sole evidence for mAcro-evolution, or the metamorphasis of a plant, into an ape, into a human, directly contradicts Darwins OWN THEORY of natural selection!

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so dont tell me that science is cold and hard and factual..when there is the same degree of "FAITH" involved in accepting an un-proven, unsubstantiated theory, as in believing what can atleast be recognized as a historically* proven document such as the Bible

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now, evolution tells us that the layers of the earth were deposited over millions and billions of years; older animal species would exist in lower, older layers...and so on. it turns out scientists use a "fossil index" to date these layers based on evolutions theories of a particular species existence!

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but besides that, what about older species found alongside species claimed to be from different eras?

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if an animal dies in a field, like a squirrel or a pigeon..do its fossils immediately become covered in sediment and fossilized and preserved? this process takes eons..yet how do you reconcile that the majority of fossils are found in the same geological layers??

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what is my point with all of this? that the bible has yet to be disproven, based on known scientific evidence, which relates to the story in the Bible.

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