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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The Germans who occupied the Rhineland in 1936 were told that if they should experience any resistance from France, that they should withdraw because Germany did not have the military power to hold the Rhineland. To a very large extent, I think the Rhineland was a test. The Germans, having essentially lost the First World War, were probably not committed in 1936 to an expansionistic offensive, until they were not removed from the Rhineland, at which point they began to build up their military force confident they could defeat countries that could not or would not oppose them. I think it relatively certain that if France and the UK (and I’ll throw the US in their as well,) had shown even a meager show of force by retaking the Rhineland, it might very well have forestalled the entire war. Of course we can’t really know what would have been, although what was, was certainly the worst of most possible scenarios.

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Originally posted by citizen:

Unless your saying the American government is not a democracy, there's certainly arguments down that road.

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As far as I can tell, all that Geezer did was ask some critical questions of the original rant, as well as the test that it quotes

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Originally posted by SignyM:
ie. "Trust the system." I'm not putting words in your mouth, just condensing your rhetoric. But in your world view, is there a role for the average person to get involved- even worked up- over politics? Or does the demos not belong in democracy?

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Originally posted by Khyron:
Citizen, I realise your post was (probably) in jest

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In theory, yes. In practice, impossible.

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For instance, the war with Iraq was quite unpopular in America and hugely unpopular in Britain, and it still happened.

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The people are only important in election years.

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In my view, the government that comes closest to being a true democracy is Switzerland, which is a direct democracy, meaning that the people vote on every damn thing. But even this requires the populace to be politically aware of what they are voting for/against, and that isn't always the case. California also has a direct democracy, but there it seems like any proposal that Schwarzenegger supports is accepted or rejected according to how popular he is at that moment. So direct democracy isn't exactly an ideal form of government either.

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STDOUBT is a fascist, ad hominum “You've passed the test and your Fascista membership card is in the mail.."

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Trivialization, how to “score” the test Most symptom tests give a pass-fail number, i.e. "If you have more than 8 of the 14 symptoms, contact a doctor immediately". Is there a make/break for this test, or does meeting any one condition lead irrevocably to Fascism?

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Innuendo, disguised as “equal time” I also wonder if there are similar tests for, say, Communism, Socialism, Liberal Democracy, etc., so we can spin their OK. That assumes that the cited article is spin, and only spin.

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Ad hominem “Then I went looking for "Dr. Lawrence Britt"...and can't find a thing about him other than he writes for the Council for Secular Humanism and the Rochester City newspaper, and has written a book entitled "July 2004" which is #1,273,771 in the Amazon.com books sales ranking. No evidence anywhere he's a Doctor of anything.

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Innuendo “Free Inquiry is apparently the house organ of the Council for Secular Humanism.” So???

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Ad hominem"Looks like Mr. Britt's worldview falls right in with the "Bush is Evil" crowd here” FINN-PLEASE NOTE, HE IS REFERRING TO PEOPLE HERE, not just to Dr Britt.

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Putting words in peoples mouths (straw man) “I'm surprised he hasn't been quoted here before, what with stuff such as an essay titled, "Resolved: George W. Bush Is the Worst President in American History".

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All he had to do was google up the definition of fascism and he would have seen a big overlap between Britt’s points, and others. But he’s more interested in trivializing and diverting the topic than actually discussing it. But Geezer doesn’t HAVE any “points”. That’s the point. Geezer is a walking, one-man propaganda machine, full of innuendo, ad hominem, and straw man distractions.

So, how about talking about whether the USA is trending otwards fascism, with the help of people who THINK they're being patriots?

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If you want to overthrow the government, you can try, but then those of us who play by the rules really will try and stop you, instead of just disagreeing with you

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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As far as I can tell, all that Geezer did was ask some critical questions of the original rant, as well as the test that it quotes

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Khyron- You're normally much smarter than this. WHAT "critical" (important, insightful, crucial) questions did Geezer ask??

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Here are his points, in order

STDOUBT is a fascist, ad hominum “You've passed the test and your Fascista membership card is in the mail.. (OK, one could say that STDOUBT engaged in the same behavior- that doesn’t make in-kind response right either)

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Trivialization, how to “score” the test Most symptom tests give a pass-fail number, i.e. "If you have more than 8 of the 14 symptoms, contact a doctor immediately". Is there a make/break for this test, or does meeting any one condition lead irrevocably to Fascism?

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Innuendo, disguised as “equal time” I also wonder if there are similar tests for, say, Communism, Socialism, Liberal Democracy, etc., so we can spin their OK. That assumes that the cited article is spin, and only spin.

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Ad hominem “Then I went looking for "Dr. Lawrence Britt"...and can't find a thing about him other than he writes for the Council for Secular Humanism and the Rochester City newspaper, and has written a book entitled "July 2004" which is #1,273,771 in the Amazon.com books sales ranking. No evidence anywhere he's a Doctor of anything.

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Innuendo “Free Inquiry is apparently the house organ of the Council for Secular Humanism.” So???

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Ad hominem"Looks like Mr. Britt's worldview falls right in with the "Bush is Evil" crowd here” FINN-PLEASE NOTE, HE IS REFERRING TO PEOPLE HERE, not just to Dr Britt.

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Putting words in peoples mouths (straw man) “I'm surprised he hasn't been quoted here before, what with stuff such as an essay titled, "Resolved: George W. Bush Is the Worst President in American History".

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All he had to do was google up the definition of fascism and he would have seen a big overlap between Britt’s points, and others.

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But he’s more interested in trivializing and diverting the topic than actually discussing it. But Geezer doesn’t HAVE any “points”. That’s the point. Geezer is a walking, one-man propaganda machine, full of innuendo, ad hominem, and straw man distractions.

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So, how about talking about whether the USA is trending otwards fascism, with the help of people who THINK they're being patriots?

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Originally posted by Flatch2:
Actually it's a representative Republic and that's an important distinction. When trying to determine the political system used in the US Constitution the drafters looked at various existant, historic and theoretical political systems. True, or primative democracy was considered but it can end up becoming government by the Mob and such systems make it hard to enforce property rights. In the end a Republic with various fudges and checks and balences was agreed. In the US system the people are represented in the government but they do not themselves govern. The government uses power given by the people, it is not the power of the people.

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Originally posted by Khyron:
I like what you said in response to that comment by Citizen, much better than my reply to it.

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Originally posted by citizen:
No that's pretty much exactly what it does. Democracy may be choose your dictator for the next four years, but by the virtue of governments wanting to stay in power they have to listen to the 'whims' of the people.

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Both Britain and America have had elections since the start of these unpopular wars, and both still have the same governments they had before the war. People re-elected them, if they disagreed with the war they had the opportunity to do something about it, they didn't. Whose fault and responsibility is that?

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And if people don't use that influence that is THEIR responsibility.

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Originally posted by citizen:
People in a democracy share the responsibility of the decisions, they decide who makes the decisions, they let them continue to make those decisions.
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And who bears responsibility for the people’s apathy if not the people?

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Originally posted by Khyron:
True democracy is possible only in theory or in a small population that is politically aware

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Originally posted by citizen:
Your points were actually quite dissimilar?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Straw man

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If you want to overthrow the government, you can try, but then those of us who play by the rules really will try and stop you, instead of just disagreeing with you

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Tsk, tsk. You just CAN'T turn off the propaganda machine, can you Geezer? But enough of this waltzing around. You've got nothing interesting to say on the topic of the thread. Let me know when you decide to have a substantive discussion.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
No, a discussion would be something like...

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Originally posted by SignyM:
No, a discussion would be something like...

What is fascism? Well, it turns out there is a lively discussion on the definition of fascism and it's overlap with nazism, and whether it's being used in the historical or perjorative sense.

MY reading of fascism is the Benito Moussolini version of fascism: a melding of "the state" and corporatism... government in service to business. But STDOUBT got a list of fourteen points, so maybe if we looked at the one by one we could decide if they belonged on the list and whether the USA matches that description.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
It's a point of historic fact. During the constitutional process the US considered pure democracy and rejected it. If you read the Federalist papers there are discussions as to why. They had the opertunity to implement true democracy and they didn't and they described themselves as a Republic as a consequence of that distinction.

The US system, and the British system come to that work on the premise that people elect representatives to rule for them for a fixed period. That is not the same as a democracy. In a democracy going to war would involve a poll of the electorate, ie explicit permision by the people rather than consent by their representatives as is the case in the US and UK.

As for what people choose to call themselves I'm reminded of thing a friend of mine pointed out back in the 80's -- that almost all countries with the word "democratic" in their official names were in fact dictatorships.

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Originally posted by Khyron:
Hmm, I don't know, the whims of the people are pretty much opposed to the current Bush administration (Bush is hovering around 30% is the polls), but it's still there. If anything, this administration has gone from one faux pas to another and it's still there. The only way the whims of the people can get them out is by revolution, and I think we can all agree that that won't happen.

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Okay, there's no way I can explain why both administrations are still there, because it still doesn't make sense to me. My two best arguments are: the majority of people are stupid, and the opposition candidates were hopeless.

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In my quote, 'politically aware' is in italics because I emphasise that I think true democracy only works if the population is small (i.e. manageable) and politically aware. This ties in with what you said about the people's responsibility, namely that democracy can only really work if the people take responsibility for what their elected officials do (let me know if that's not what you meant, but that's how I saw it).

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However, one can't just say that democracy doesn't work so well because of the people, because any form of government doesn't work too well because of the people.

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Communism would have many benefits, but it's been tried and it failed numerous times, and the reason is i) it's easily corruptable, and (more importantly) ii) because it goes against the people's natural way of doing things.

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So while I agree with your sentiment and have expressed similar concern myself, I don't think it's something that can be changed and the system has to adapt to the people and not the other way around.

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Originally posted by citizen:
And no, revolution isn't the only way to get them out. NOT voting for them is a more widely accepted and less violent way.

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However, one can't just say that democracy doesn't work so well because of the people, because any form of government doesn't work too well because of the people.

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This statement has no relation to what I said, I merely said people as a whole in a democracy share the responsibility of their nation’s actions, and frankly that responsibility hangs heaviest on those who directly support that government and its actions.

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(Communism) also worked extremely well in small communities. Though Democracy and Communism are not directly comparable. One is a societal system, one is a governmental system.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I didn't say anything along those lines.

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Originally posted by citizen:
And who bears responsibility for the people’s apathy if not the people?

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Originally posted by Khyron:
So while I agree with your sentiment and have expressed similar concern myself...

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...I don't think it's something that can be changed and the system has to adapt to the people and not the other way around.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Frankly I think people should meet society half-way, otherwise there's absolutly no point to society in the first place.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Okay, there's no way I can explain why both administrations are still there, because it still doesn't make sense to me. My two best arguments are: the majority of people are stupid, and the opposition candidates were hopeless.

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People are as ignorant of political matters and as stupid as they want to be. It's their responsibility to educate themselves, not anyone else’s.

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Originally posted by rue:
So anyway, I intend to get back to Geezer (aka 'Slick') later on ... I've gone through about 1/3 of all archived threads to find his postings by which to hang him - metaphorically speaking. He is blatantly partisan.

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Sure I have a point, and I'd have thought it would have been pretty clear. After reviewing Mr. Britt's 14 warning signs of fascism, the article in which they appeared, the organization which published the article, Mr. Britt's other work that I cound find, and the interiew in the Rochester City, I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Britt wrote the article as a spin, or more accurately a propaganda, piece, to support his own poor opinion of the US government. He provides a little pseudo-scientific dressing by talking about analysing fascist governments, but provides no research data or statistics. He provides no method of evaluating pass/fail levels for any of his criteria, leaving them wide open for any interpretation one might want to apply. I consider it bogus. That's BOOOOOOOOOGUS!

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Both fascist Nazi Germany and the Communist Soviet Union were big on flags, parades, monumental buildings and the other trappings of Nationalism. Various monarchies have also encouraged nationalism in this way. The US had a spate of massive building in Washington, D.C. and giant public works across the country in the FDR era. I'd say this criteria isn't a standalone marker for fascism. It seems pretty general across the political spectrum, and should probably not be weighted too high as a combined marker either.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
You both miss the point I think. Both governments are still there because the war didn't matter enough to the people that were voting at the time they voted. This is not a world war, people are not dying on your street in bombing raids, chances are that Joe Q voter doesn't personally know anyone that has died.

Political parties tend to be big tents, they attract all kinds of people and organizations. Not all Republicans are also conservative, not all Democrats are that liberal, parties horse trade issues between their own internal factions then try to condense and polish a message for the voter. Few elections are about single issues and few voters find any party to be an exact fit for their own beliefs. They choose based on which parties are closest to them in general or on key issues. Some voters vote party line no matter what. Let's look a specifics.

At the time of the US election more people in favour of the war than against it. Now you can argue that they are not informed, ill informed or misinformed but that's the truth that the war had majority support. About 1000 US service personel had died, less than died on Sept 11th and the chance that significant numbers of voters knew a GI that was killed are slim. Bush played the national security card to a populus that is in general scared. The Dems put up a weak canidate. End of story. Bush actually did better in 2004 than in 2000.

In the UK about 100 servicemen had died, almost a quater of them in none combat related accidents. The economy was doing ok, or at least better than mainland Europe. The main opposition party not only voted for the war but would have probably done what Labour did had they been in power, they did not have a moral high ground to exploit. The UK electorate "adjusted" Labour's majority to a point where they could no longer railroad legislation but that was all. Howard Dean's political guru Joe Trippi (?) apparently worked as an analysist at the election and said the anti war movement got no traction in the UK despite the big public demonstrations. The big surprise vote catcher against the government proved to be immigration.

So there's your answer. The war is not as big a deal for voters as it is for talking heads. If the economy is good and your son isnt the one being shot at you will vote for the guy you think is most likely to keep you safe and the economy good over the peacenic whose security and economic record you dont know.

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BRIEF HISTORY OF COVERT "INTELLIGENCE" OPERATIONS

by Hitler's Nazis and George Bush's CIA

Dirty tricks and lies create dictatorships, deal drugs & start wars



US Big Business sold to Nazi Germany during World War 2
US Big Business bought from Commies during Vietnam
Reagan/Bush White House & CIA convicted as Drug Warlords: Iran-Contra
Nazi worship at Secret Society Skull & Bones (CIA) at US colleges

Nazi Germany and United States of America are now United under George Bushes

edited by John Lee

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"It is the business of a general to be quiet and thus insure secrecy. He must be able to mystify his officers and men by false reports and appearances, and thus keep them in total ignorance."
—Sun Tzu, author of The Art of War, was hired as commanding general after chopping off the heads of the Chinese Emperor's wives for giggling in their first military parade. His book is still a standard primer for American business and war colleges, and his techniques are used against billions of people today and every day

"The people resemble a wild beast, which, naturally fierce and accustomed to live in the woods, has been brought up, as it were, in a prison and in servitude, and having by accident got its liberty, not being accustomed to search for its food, and not knowing where to conceal itself, easily becomes the prey of the first who seeks to incarcerate it again. There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless. If sometimes you need to conceal a fact with words, do so in such a way that it does not become known. Or, if it does become know, make sure you have a ready and quick defense."
—Niccolo Machiavelli, from The Prince

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least intelligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself. The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."
—Adolf Hitler, President of the Reichstag and Reich Chancellor, Nazi Party

"Naturally, the common people don't want war. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism."
—Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"First of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—Nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror.... The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism, ownership of the government by the individual, by a group, or any controlling private power."
—President Franklin Roosevelt

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. We must guard against the acquisition of unwarrented influence by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
-President Dwight Eisenhower, 5-star general, former commander of Allied Forces in World War 2, in his final radio and television address to the American People, January 17, 1961

"Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind."
–US General William Westmoreland, Commander in Vietnam

"Machiavelli has been invoked for centuries as the incarnation for cynicism. Yet he thought of himself as a moralist. His maxims describe the world as he found it, not as he wished it to be. Indeed, he was convinced that only a ruler of strong moral conviction could keep a steady course while engaging in manipulations on which survival regrettably depended."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissenger Knight of the British Empire, Nixon's Secretary of State who arranged illegal grants of billions of US taxdollars to Saddam Hussein in Iraq for the Reagan/Bush White House's Iran-Contra-Iraqgate, and his machinations at BNL Bank in Atlanta were closed down by the FBI, Jr Bush's first choice to lead the 9/11 Commission Whitewash Coverup

"The President, Vice-President, and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."
—Constitution of the United States

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Bibliography

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The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany
by William Shirer

Trading with the Enemy: The Nazi-American Money Plot 1933-1950
by Charles Higham

The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia
by Prof Alfred W McCoy

Iran-Contra trial documents and Congressional Hearings
35 volumes of Congressional reports available in public libraries

www.amazon.com

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REICHSTAG ARSON BY HITLER

Blamed on German Commies, Excuse to destroy Constitution and declare dictatorship

(just like Bush's attack on USA on 9/11/2001, then U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act that was written before 9/11, and Congress was not allowed to read before voting on it)

January 30, 1933
Weimar Republic President Paul von Hindenburg appoints Adolph Hitler Chancellor


Hitler arsoned German Reichstag parliament to blame the Commies and declare dictatorship in German
www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm

February 27, 1933

The German Parliament (Reichstag) burned down. A dazed and beaten Dutch Communist named Marinus van der Lubbe is found at the scene and charged with arson. Hundreds of others were also arrested, from all political parties, including elected members of the Reichstag.

Hitler surveying his handiwork at Reichstag

William Shirer writes:

In the former Austrian vagabond the conservative classes thought they had found a man, who while remaining their prisoner, would help them attain their goals. The destruction of the Republic was only the first step. What the conservatives then wanted was an authoritarian Germany which at home would put an end to "democratic nonsense" and in foreign affairs tear off the shackles of Versailles, rebuild a great army and with its military power restore the country to its place in the sun.

Such a commanding position would allow the conservatives, they thought, to achieve their ends without the barabarism of unadulterated Nazism. Admittedly, they were decent, God-fearing men, according to their own lights.


US Congress signing Bush Jr's U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act without being allowed to read it, prewritten before 9/11, that makes all crimes acts of terrorism, and since all normal human activities were already crimes, all US citizens are now terrorists

The Germans imposed the Nazi tyranny upon themselves. Many of them, perhaps a majority, did not quite realize it at that noon hour on January 30, 1933, when President von Hindinberg (senile like Ronald Reagan and surrounded with conspirators in his palace court), acting in a perfectly constitutional manner, entrusted the chancellorship to Adolf Hitler.

But they were soon to learn.

Acting with speed, brutality and consumate trickery which were always the hallmarks of his tactics, he first consolidated his power within Germany.

For the first time—in the last relatively free election Germany was to have—the Nazi Party could now employ all the vast resources of the government to win votes. Goebbels was jubilant. "Now it will be easy," he wrote in his diary on February 3, "to carry on the fight, for we can call on all the resources of the state. we shall stage a masterpeice of propaganda."

The Hitler government had banned (all opposition) meetings and shut down the (opposition) press. Social Democrat rallies were either forbidden or broken up by the (Nazi) SA rowdies, and the leading Socialist newspapers were constantly suspended. Even the Catholic Center Party did not escape the Nazi terror. Altogether, 51 anti-Nazis were listed as murdered during the election campaign.

Goering removed hunderds of republican officials and replaced them with Nazis. He ordered the police to show no mercy to those who were "hostile to the State." He urged the police to "make use of firearms" and warned that those who didn't would be punished. This was an outright call to shooting down of all who opposed Hitler by the police. Police power was thus largely carried out by Nazi thugs.

On February 24, Goering's police raided the Communist headquarters in Berlin. It had been abandoned some weeks before. But piles of propaganda had been left in the cellar and these were enough to allow Goering to announce in an official communique that the seized "documents" proved the Communists were about to launch the revolution. The reaction of the public and even of some conservatives in government was one of skepticism. It was obvious that something more sensationalmust be found to stampede the public before the election on March 5.

On the evening of February 27... at Goebbels' home, Chancellor Hitler had arrived to dine. According to Goebbels in his diary, "Suddenly a telephone call: 'The Reichstag is on fire!'"

Suddenly, General Papen wrote, we noticed a red glow through the windows and heard sounds of shouting in the street. President von Hindenburg got up and from the window we could see the Reichstag. Every now and again a burst of flame and a swirld of smoke blurred the outline.

That it was a crime, a Communist crime, they proclaimed at once upon arrival at the fire. Goering (declared): We will not wait a minute. We must show no mercy. Every Communist official must be shot, where he is found. Every Communist deputy must this very night be strung up.

The whole truth about the Reichstag fire will probably never be known. Nearly all those who knew it are now dead, most of them slain by Hitler in the months that followed. At Nuremburg (trials) there is enough evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the Nazis who planned the arson and carried it out for their own political ends.

From Goering's Reichstag President's Palace and underground passage, built to carry the central heating system,ran to the Reichstag building. Through this tunnel Karl Ernst led a small detatchment of storm troopers to the Reichstag where they scattered gasoline and self-igniting chemicals.

Hans Gisevious, an official at the Prussian Ministry of the Interior, testified that, "it was Goebbels who first thought of setting the Reichstag on , and Rudolf Diels, the Gestapo chief, added in an affidavit that, "Goering knew exactly how the fire was to be started" and had ordered him "to prepare, prior to the fire, a list of people who who were to be arrested immediately after it." General Franz Halder, Chief of the German General Staff, recalled at Nurenburg (trial) how Goering had boasted of his deed.

Van der Lubbe, it seems claer, was a dupe of the Nazis. He was encouraged to try and set the fire. But the main job was to be done--without his knowledge, of course--by the storm troopers. Two and ahlf minutes after he entered, the great hall was feircely burning. He had only his shirt for tinder.

Van der Lubbe was arrested on the spot... and the subsequent trial before the Supreme Court turned into a fiasco for the Nazis, and especially for Goering, whom Dimitroff, acting as his own lawyer, easily provoked Goering into making a fool of himself in a series of stinging cross-examinations. Torgler and the trhee Bulgarians were aquitted. Van der Lubbewas found guilty and decapitated.

The Peoples Court convicted and executed hundreds of "conspirators" after Reichstag fire. In USA, Judge "Raving Bitch" Judy is twice married to Judge Wapner of The Peoples Court TV show, and writes in her book Don't Pee On Me And Tell Me It's Raining that sick Americans should be given the Death Penalty

The trial, despite the subserviency of the court to the Nazi authority, cast a great deal of suspicion on Goering and the Nazis, but it came too late to have any practical effect. For Hitler has wasted no time in exploiting the Reichstag fire to the limit.

February 28, 1933

On the day after the fire, President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in time of national emergency, "for the protection of the people and the State, as a defendive measure against Communist acts of violence endangering the State." This Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State eliminated the following constitutional protections:

Free expression of opinion
Freedom of the press
Right of assembly and association
Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications
Protection against unlawful searches and seizures
Individual property rights States' right of self-government
Like the Holy Bible's 600 Commandments, it instutituted the Death Penalty for a variety of new "crimes", including "serious disturbances of the peace". (Report by American Automobile Association proves American police summarily execute 1,000 Americans every year for civil--not criminal--traffic violations and for other civil--not criminal--allegations, including hundreds on innocent bystanders. The current US Supreme Court opins that thises executions without trial are legal. In 2001 George Bush Jr and US Congress passed legislation to label hundreds of ordinary alleged crimes as "terrorist acts" worthy of summary execution by paramilitary police.)

Summary arrests and executions of Nazi opponents
in wake of Reichstag fire

Some 4,000 Communist, Social Democrat and liberal leaders were arrested, including members of the Reichstag, who, according to law, were immune to arrest [exactly like Mafia Mayor Giuliani constantly does to United Nations diplomats who likewise have immunity]. Only the Nazis and their Nationalist allies were allowed to campign for the election.

Shirer writes: "The elctorate was in turn cajoled with promises of a German paradise, intimidated by the brown terror in the streets and frightened by 'revalations' about the Communist 'revolution'."

A supplemental decree creates the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special Security) Federal police agencies

Nazis immediately took advantage of the situation in order to advance their cause at the expense of civil rights. The Decree enabled the Nazis to ruthlessly suppress opposition in the upcoming election

March 5, 1933

National "selections" give Nazis 44% plurality in the Reichstag. Herman Göring declares that there is no further need for State governments. Hitler had only gained 37% of the vote in the previous election, back when democracy actually existed.

Over the next few weeks, each of the lawful Weimar State governments falls to the same ruse:

Local Nazi organizations instigate "disorder" (what the US Pentagon, Office of Special Plans calls, "Controlled Chaos"); The "disorder" is quelled by replacing the elected state government by appointed Nazi Reich Commissioners

March 24, 1933

The Reichstag passes the Law for Terminating the Suffering of People and Nation, also known as the Enabling Law, essentially granting Adolph Hitler dictatorial power

June 30, 1933--The Blood Purge and Night of the Long Knives

Hitler was "forced" to massacre over 1,000 of his own Secret Police, the SA Brownshirts, along with with its commanders, in order to avoid President Hindenburg and Vice Chancellor Papen from ordering the Army to declare martial law and destroy the Nazi Party. Shirer writes: "Some 150 SA leaders were rounded up and stood against a wall of the Cadet School and shot by firing squads of Himmler's SS and Goering's special police.

Nazi propaganda machine demonized its own citizens
group by group with Divide and Conquer tactics.
In 2001, George Bush used alleged invasion of USA by Afganistan to incite US "Christians" to hate all Arabs

Hitler got support of Christian leaders,
although eventually he attacked them too,
and established Satanic pagan religion of Nazism

"In Germany the Nazis came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, but by that time there was no one left to speak for me."
–Pastor Martin Neomoller, eventual leader of Underground Resistance to Nazis

May 5, 1937--Coup D'etat conspiracy against Hitler

Shirer writes:

The first crisis arose within the German ranks--a rift between Hitler and some of the highest-ranking generals of the army. The opposition to the Fuehrer's grandois plans for aggression was led by general Ludwig Beck, chief of the Army General Staff. Beck now began to perceive that Hitler's policy of deliberately risknig war... against the advice of his top generals, would, if carried out, be the ruin of Germany. His long-range predictions turned out, so far as Germany was concerned, to be deadly accurate.

Beck arranged a secret meeting of the commanding generals. The meeting broke up without their having had the courage to call Hitler to account, and Beck saw that he had been defeated by the spinelessness of his brother officers On August 18, Beck resigned.

Ordinarily the resignation of the chief of of the Army General Staff in the midst of a crisis would have caused a storm in military circles and even given rise to repercussions abroad. But here again Hitler showed his craftiness. He forbade any mention of it in the press or even in the official government or military gazettes and ordered the retired general and his officers to keep it to themselves. Had the (French or British) heard, one could speculate, the appeasement of the Fueher might not have been carried so far. He was a man of principles and thought, but not of action.

Beck's successor was Franz Halder. Halder, like Beck, though not at first a member of the growing conspiracy against Hitler, knew about it, and apparently, like Beck, was willing to back it. As the new chief of Army General Staff, he became the key figure in the first serious plot to overthrow the dictator of the Third Reich.



Operation Himmler and Canned Goods

Hitler stages fake invasion by Polish Army
as excuse to invade Poland and start World War 2

March 15, 1939--Planning Begins for Bogus Invasion of Czechoslovakia
Shirer writes:

Hitler instituted a campaign of propaganda and internal subversion sesigned to force the nation to break up, which would afford him a pretext to march in and restore order. Before leaving Berlin, Hitler had issued a grandious proclamation to the German people, repeating the tireless lies about the "wild excesses" and "terror" of the Czechs which he had been forced to bring an end to, and proudly proclaiming, "Czechoslovakia has ceased to exist!"

April 1, 1939--Speech for Bogus Peace
Shirer writes:

Hitler ordered that the direct radio broadcast of a speech be cancelled, and that it later be broadcast from recordings, which could be edited. Even the broadcast version was sprinkled with warnings to Britain and Poland. But, as so often before, Hitler ended on a note of "peace": "Germany has no intention of attacking other people."

That was for public consumption. In the greatest secrecy Hitler gave his real answer to Chamberlain two days later, on April 3. In a top-secret directive to the armed forces, of which only five copies were made, he inaugurated "Case White" -- the attack on Poland. "Preparations," it stipulated, "must be made so that the operation can be carried out anytime after September 1, 1939."

May 22, 1939 -- the Pact of Steel
Hitler signed the Axis alliance with Fascist Italy

May 23, 1939 -- Mission Statement for Bogus Invasion of Poland

Hitler calls a top-secret meeting of his military chiefs.

Hitler declared that Germany's problems could not be solved without annexation and enslavement of nations: "This is imppossible without invading other countries or attacking other people's possessions. Further successes can no longer be obtained without shedding of blood. There is no question of sparing Poland, and we are left with the decision: to attack Poland at the first suitable opportunity." There will be war. The aim must be to deal the nemy a smashing blow right at the start. Considerations of right or wrong, or of treaties, do not enter into the matter.

August 17, 1939 -- Plans for Controlled Chaos
General Halder writes in his diary: "Canaris checked with Section 1 (Operations). 150 Polish uniforms with accessories for Upper Silesia."

Shirer writes:

The code name was "Operation Himler". The SS Gestapo would stage a fake attack on the German radio station at Gleiwitz, near the Polish border, using condemned concentration camp prisoners outfitted in Polish Army uniforms. Thus Poland would be blamed for attacking Germany.

A young SS secret-service, Alfred Naujocks, deserted to the Americans and at Nuremburg (Trial) made a number of sworn affidavits:

On or about August 10, 1939, the chief of the SD, Heydrich, personally ordered me to simulate an attack on the radio station near Gleiwitz near the Polish border and to make it appear the attacking force consisted of Poles. Heydrich said: "Practical proof is needed for for these attacks on the Poles for the foreign press as well as for German propaganda."

My instructions were to seize the radio stations and to hold it long enough to permit a Polish-speaking German who would be put at my disposal to broadcast a speech in Polish. Heydrick told me this speech would state that the time had come for conflict between Germans and Poles. Heydrick also told me he expected an attack on Poland by Germany in a few days.

I went to Gleiwitz and waited 14 days. Between the 25th and 31st of August, I went to see Heinrich Mueller, the head of the Gestapo. In my prescience, Mueller discussed with a man named Mehlhorn plans for another border incident, in which it should be made to appear that Polish soldiers were attacking German troops. Mueller stated that he had 13 condemned criminals who were to be dressed in Polish uniforms and left dead on the ground of the scene of the incident to show they had been killed while attacking. For this purpose they were to be given fatal injections by a doctor employed by Heydrich. Then they were also to be given gunshot wounds. After the incident members of the press were to be taken to the spot of the incident.

Mueller told me he had an order from Heydrich to make one of the criminals available to me for the action at Gleiwitz. The code name by which he referred to these criminals was "Canned Goods".

August 23, 1939 -- Hitler and Stalin sign non-agression treaty Hitler sets date for Operation Himmler and bogus invasion of Poland for August 26.

August 26, 1939 -- Britain signs treaty with Poland

Hitler recalls Operation Himmler after shooting and invasion already begun. Date reset for September 1.

An eyewitness to Hitler's decision recalled:

Hitler suddenly got up and, becoming very excited and nervous, walked up and down saying,as though to himself, that Germany was irresistable. Suddenly he stopped in the middle of the room and stood staring. His voice was blurred, and his behavior that of a completely abnormal person. He spoke in staccato phrases: "If there should be war then I shall build U-boats, build U-boats, U-boats, U-boats, U-boats, U-boats."

His voice became more indistinct, and finally one could not follow him at all. The nhe raised his voice as if addressing a large audience and shreiked: "I shall build airplanes, build airplanes, airplanes, airplanes and I shall anhialate my enemies!" He seemed more like a phantom from a storybook than a real person.

August 31, 1939, noon -- Hitler issues written orders for Operation Himmler and invasion of Poland for September 1, 4:45 am.
Shirer writes:

As darkenss settled over Europe on the vening of August 31, 1939, and a million and a half German troops began moving forward for the jump off at dawn, all that remained for Hitler to do was perpetrate some propaganda trickery to prepare the German people for war.

They were in need of the propaganda treatment which Hitler, abetted by Goebbels and Himmler, had become so expert at applying. I had been in the streets of Berlin, talking with the ordinary people, and that morning noted in my diary: "Everybody against the war. People talking openly. How can a country go into a major war with a population dead set against it?"

Despite all my experience in the Third Reich I asked such a naive question! Hitler knew the answer very well. The week before on his Bavarian mountaintop he had promised the generals that he would "give a propagandist reason for starting the war" and admonished them not to mind whether it was plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterward whether he told the truth. In starting and waging war it is not right that matters but victory."

Now there remained only the concocting of a deed which would "prove" that not Germany but Poland had attacked first.

The plan had been revised. SS men outfitted in Polish Army uniforms were to do the shooting, and drugged concentration camp inmates were to be left dying as "casualties" -- with the delectable code name "Canned Goods". There were to be several such faked "Polish attacks" but the principal one was to be on the radio station at Gleiwitz.

Naujocks affidavit explained:

At noon on August 31 I received the code word for the attack which was to take place at 8 o'clock that evening.... I received this man and laid him down at the entrance to the [radio] station. He was alive but completely unconscious. I tried to open his eyes. I could not recognize by his eyes that he was alive, only by his breathing. I did not see the gun wounds but a lot of blood was smeared across his face. He was in civilian clothes.

We seized the radio station as ordered, broadcast a speech of 3 or 4 minutes over an emergency transmitter, fired some pistol shots and left.

April 3, 1939 -- Hitler's armies invade Poland
Shirer writes:

In Berlin, the people in the streets were apathertic, despite the immensity of the news which greeted them in the morning newspapers. Perhaps they were simply dazed at waking up to find themselves in a war which they had been sure the Fuehrer would somehow avoid.

There were no such demonstrations as those of 1914 for the troops or for the Nazi warlord, who drove to the Reichstag to address the nation on the momentous happenings which he himself, deliberately and cold-bloodedly, had just provoked.

Though truculant at times, he seemed strangely on the defensive, and throughout the speech ran a curious strain, as though he himself were dazed on the curious fix he had got himself into and and felt a little desperate about it.

Having lied so often on his way to power and in his consolidation of power, Hitler could not refrain at this serious moment in history from thundering a few more lies to the gullible German people in justification for his wanton act:

"You know the endless attempt I made for a peaceful clarification and understanding of the problem of Austria, and later in the problem of Sudetenland, Bohemia and Morovia. It was all in vain. In my talks with Polish statesmen, I should like to say this to the world. I alone was in a position to make these proposals, for I know full well that i doing so I brought myself into opposition to millions of Germans. These propsals have been refused."

Britain and France declared war on Germany.

The German submarine U-30 sank British passenger liner Athenia, killing 112 passengers, including 28 Americans.

World War 2 began.

April 30, 1945 -- Adolf Hitler murdered his wife and then murdered himself

May 8, 1945 -- Germany surrenders, the Thousand Year Reich dies after 12 bloody years
20 million people dead because of Adolf Hitler and his Nazis, including wealthy Fascists in America who did business with him throughout the war. Less than 1% of Nazi war criminals were executed after the war. Many Nazi war criminals were employed by US military, CIA and NASA

www.geocities.com/skull_and_bones_nazis

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"The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations."
-USAma Bin Laden (CIA code name Jew Tim OSSman when in California buying SAMS from CIA), business partner with Bush family since 1947, brother Salem Bin Laden was George Bush Jr's first business partner in Arbusto Oil in Texas, his other brother Shafig Bin Laden was dining with Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire and Carlyle Group (owner of Serenity) on 9/11/2001 in Washinton DC, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people."
-Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001

"It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the government might legitimately give out false information. It's an unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete information and even misinformation by government may sometimes be perceived as necessary to protect vital interests."
—US Solicitor-General Theodore "Ted" Olson, in Jennifer K. Harbury vs. United States, at the US Supreme Court, on 17 March 2002 (his estranged 3rd wife Barabara Olson, attoney at law and CNN talkinghead disappeared on September 11, 2001, allegedly on American Airlines Flight 77 that never hit the Pentagon)

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."
-William Colby, Director CIA, assassinated 60,000 people via CIA Death Squads in Vietnam Wars with Phoenix Project ("drowned" in a suspicious "canoe crash" while cooking dinner in Washington DC)

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Bush Sued by RICO Act - 9/11 victims sue Bush Gang under RICO Act for perping domestic terrorism and mass murder on 9/11/2001. Stanley Hilton vs traitorous media whores Shaun Hannity and Alan Colmes for Jewish Australian porno king pimp daddy Rupert Murdock on Faux News.
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Operation Northwoods - James Banford from ABC News reported on Pentagon's Operation Northwoods plot to perp domestic terrorism in USA to blame a foreign nation and "justify" invasion, declassified in 2000
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php
http://BodyOfSecrets.com

"Towers that fell 'like a controlled demolition'. Planes that vanished then mysteriously reappeared, and crucial evidence that has been lost for ever. In the Pentagon, a top secret team drew up a plan to simultaneously send up two airliners painted and numbered exactly the same, one from a civil airport in America, the other from a secret military airbase nearby. The one from the airport would have military personnel on board who had checked in as ordinary passengers under false names. The one from the airbase would be an empty drone, a remote-controlled unmanned aircraft. Somewhere along their joint flight paths, the passenger-carrying plane would drop below radar height, and disappear, landing back at the airbase and unloading its occupants in secret. Meanwhile, the drone would have taken up the other plane's designated course. High over the island of Cuba, it would be exploded in mid-air after broadcasting an international distress call that it was under attack from enemy fighters. The world would be told that a plane load of blameless American holidaymakers had been deliberately shot down by Fidel Castro's Communists - and that the US had no choice but to declare war and topple his regime. This Top Secret 'agent provocateur' plan - code named Operation Northwoods and revealed in official archives - dates from 1962 when the Cold War was at its height and was declassified in 2000."
-Tony Rennell, London Daily Mail, "9/11 ON TRIAL -Towers that fell 'like a controlled demolition'. Planes that vanished then mysteriously reappeared, And crucial evidence that has been lost for ever. A new book raises bizarre yet deeply unsettling questions about the world's worst terror atrocity…" August 6, 2005
http://www.financialoutrage.org.uk/911_mainstream_media.htm

"Operation NORTHWOODS may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. Operation Northwoods had called for nothing less than the launch of a secret campaign of terrorism within the United States in order to blame Castro and provoke a war with Cuba."
—James Bamford, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
http://bodyofsecrets.com

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba. Code named Operation NORTHWOODS, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro. America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years. The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military. Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job. Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy. "The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford."
—David Ruppe, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. The presense of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The US could follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Use of MIG-type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping, and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type palnes would be useful. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce that fact. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. It is possible to create an incident which would demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civilian airliner from the United States. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rondevous. From the rondevous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly to an auxiliary airfield at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. Meanwhile the drone aircraft will continue to fly the filed flight plan. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio stations to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident. It is possible to create an incident that will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly Tail-end Charlie. While near the Cuban island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. This pilot would then fly at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who performed the mission under an alias would resume his proper identity. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared. A submarine or small craft would distribute F-101 parts, parachute, etc. The pilots retuning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found."
—Jewish Zionist General L.L. Lemnitzer, chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara - Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962 (declassifed 2000)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Jewish Fox TV's Lone Gunmen pilot episode - Broadcast in March 2001, re Jewish General LL Limnitzer's Operation Northwoods plot by Pentagon, CIA and Jewish Ike/LBJ White House to hijack a US airliner by remote control and crash it into the Jewish Rockefeller's World Trade Center, declassified in 2000
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6758.php

"I don't trust government. And neither should our citizens."
—US Senator Larry Craig, United States Senate, Committee on the Judiciary, "DOJ Oversight: Terrorism and Other Topics", testimony by US Attorney General John Ashcroft re President George Bush Jr.'s Executive Orders to "legalize torture" of US citizens and refusal to release that memo (felony Contempt of Congress), C-SPAN2, June 8, 2004

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. I don't know where Usama is, and I don't care. The Constitution is just a gorram piece of paper. My daddy owns Serenity The Big Dang Movie - it's FABULOUS!!!"
-George Bush Jr

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7231843493488769585&q=thermit
e&pl=true

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
You both miss the point I think.

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Both governments are still there because the war didn't matter enough to the people that were voting at the time they voted.

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Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

YOU made it about you when you said those who disagree with you are fixated on being anti-Bush and full of - - - spin.

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YOU are part of the pro-Bush crowd, though you claim not to be. YOU are partisan beyond reason though you pretend impartiality. All YOU have is spin, lies, distortions, excuses and distractions. Your posts prove it.

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YOU qualify as one of the 'fake patriots' - the topic, you may recall, of the thread. And that is what I will prove with YOUR own words.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't know about Britain, but Bush achieved power and has remained in power because he grossly manipulated the election process. The people of the USA did NOT support Bush through the election process. Y'all keep assuming that Bush won. He didn't: Point No. 14- Fraudulent Elections.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Rue. Anyone who reads your posts for more than five minutes could figure out you're fixated on being Anti-Bush, and I believe that applies to SignyM, Citizen, and some others here.

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In my opinion, if the Democratic candidates in either the 2000 or 2004 elections had believed they were ripped off, they would still be challenging the results in court. I can't see where they would have anything to lose.

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Actually more like "Use the system", or "Work the system". It's functioned pretty good for the past 200 years. Do all the things interest groups, be they the NRA or the Million Mom March do. Write letters, lobby, demonstrate, support candidates favorable to your position. If you're doing all this, then you're doing all you legally can. Maybe you'll just have to wait for things to get worse, as you expect, before you get the momentum needed to throw the bums out. Maybe things won't get worse. There's an election coming up in a couple of years and Bush clones don't look to have a good chance. Maybe it'll all go away. You can work on that, too.

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SignyM, if you're going to attack me, please do it to my face.

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“You've passed the test and your Fascista membership card is in the mail... -Geezer
STDOUBT is a fascist, ad hominum (OK, one could say that STDOUBT engaged in the same behavior- that doesn’t make in-kind response right either)-signy
But what better way to make it clear that the "warning signs of Fascism" could be applied to almost anybody, making them less than useful?-Geezer

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Most symptom tests give a pass-fail number, i.e. "If you have more than 8 of the 14 symptoms, contact a doctor immediately". Is there a make/break for this test, or does meeting any one condition lead irrevocably to Fascism? geezer
Trivialization, how to “score” the test-signy
Hardly trivial to me. without some concrete criteria, almost any country could be labeled fascist or given a pass depending on how loosely or strictly the test is applied.-Geezer

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I also wonder if there are similar tests for, say, Communism, Socialism, Liberal Democracy, etc., so we can spin their OK.-Geezer
Innuendo, disguised as “equal time” .That assumes that the cited article is spin, and only spin.-signy
Hardly innuendo. I come right out and say I consider the article spin. And I do.

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“Then I went looking for "Dr. Lawrence Britt"...and can't find a thing about him other than he writes for the Council for Secular Humanism and the Rochester City newspaper, and has written a book entitled "July 2004" which is #1,273,771 in the Amazon.com books sales ranking. No evidence anywhere he's a Doctor of anything.-Geezer
Ad hominem-signy
How ad hominim? Come here, Webster's II:
Ad hominem - Appealing to personal prejudices or emotions rather than to reason. I report exactly what I found by Googling Mr. Britt's name. I was interested in the "Doctor" bit because an article authored by "Dr. Britt" would be assumed to be within his area of expertise, and therefore carry more weight.

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“Free Inquiry is apparently the house organ of the Council for Secular Humanism.” -geezer
So??? innuendo- signy
Back to Webster's II:"House Organ n. A periodical published by a business organization for its employees or clients." No innuendo there either, Just noting who publishes "Free Enquiry". Sheesh.-Geezer

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"Looks like Mr. Britt's worldview falls right in with the "Bush is Evil" crowd here” -Geezer
Ad hominem. And FINN-PLEASE NOTE, HE IS REFERRING TO PEOPLE HERE, not just to Dr Britt.-signy
So if I said your worldview seems to me to fall right in with Rue and Citizen, then that would be ad hominem? When I say "...crowd here." that's who I'm referring to...you guys on FFF.

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“I'm surprised he hasn't been quoted here before, what with stuff such as an essay titled, "Resolved: George W. Bush Is the Worst President in American History".-geezer
Putting words in peoples mouths (straw man)-signy
Nope. Really am surprised. His stuff reads just like so much other stuff quoted here. I'm not sure how this could be considered putting words in anyone's mouth. If I'd said something like "SignyM obviously thinks "Dr." Britt is the only choice for World Dictator (in only the nicest Progressive way, of course)." that would be putting words in someone's mouth.

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But he’s more interested in trivializing and diverting the topic than actually discussing it. Geezer doesn’t HAVE any “points”. That’s the point. Geezer is a walking, one-man propaganda machine, full of innuendo, ad hominem, and straw man distractions.-signy
Sure I have a point, and I'd have thought it would have been pretty clear. After reviewing Mr. Britt's 14 warning signs of fascism, the article in which they appeared, the organization which published the article, Mr. Britt's other work that I cound find, and the interiew in the Rochester City, I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Britt wrote the article as a spin, or more accurately a propaganda, piece, to support his own poor opinion of the US government. He provides a little pseudo-scientific dressing by talking about analysing fascist governments, but provides no research data or statistics. He provides no method of evaluating pass/fail levels for any of his criteria, leaving them wide open for any interpretation one might want to apply. I consider it bogus. -geezer

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So, how about talking about whether the USA is trending towards fascism, with the help of people who THINK they're being patriots?-signy
No more than it trends toward Socialism with the help of those who think they're being patriots when the Liberals are in power. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being Hitlerian fascism, five being democracy, and 10 being North Korean socialism (or viceversa if you like) I think the US probably wobbles between 4.9 and 5.1. Not really accurate, because ploting fascism, democacy, socialism, etc. on one line is kind'a simplistic, but you get my drift.=Geezer

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Originally posted by SignyM:
You're basing your conclusion on a belief/assumption about what you think Dems would/should do which is far shakier grounds than exit polls, statistical analysis and historical fact.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Here's my response to this part of your post: But you use every opportunity to discourage involvement. Unless specifically challenged you simply never bring up direct action. My summary of your typical response (It's not that bad, it's happened before, trust the system, others do it, it's for a good cause.) is accurate and your typical reponse is defensive of status quo and non-action. I stand by my opinion.

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Okay. You don't think the system works.

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I'm assuming that any party which thinks they were cheated out of the presidency by election fraud would be doing everything legally possible to prove it, including plastering the entire country with lawsuits. If you can tell me why this is not a reasonable assumption, go ahead.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Rue. Anyone who reads your posts for more than five minutes could figure out you're fixated on being Anti-Bush, and I believe that applies to SignyM, Citizen, and some others here.

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As long as you recognise such a thing doesn't rubbish anything we say on the matter anymore than it does you with your fixated pro-bush.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Okay. You don't think the system works.

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No, I didn't say the system doesn't work! There you go putting words in people's mouths again! God what IS it with you, Geezer? Reading your posts is like watching someone with a serious compulsion... to wreck trains. Over and over. What I mean is that the system doesn't work if people fall asleep at the wheel. Which you seem intent on encouraging, especially when Bush is involved.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I accuse you of lying and twisting facts because it appears that you do so. I just spent the last several posts pointing out examples of it in detail.

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... in your view, no one can have an honest difference of opinion about Bush/Blair/whoever. Anyone who disagrees with you must be lying, or twisting the facts, or have an agenda to discredit you. I know you've accused me of all these things. I respectfully decline the honor. Hell, I didn't vote for Bush in either election.

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How Orwellian. Lying and twisting facts = not agreeing with your opinion.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
The "fixated" comes from the impression I get that in your view, no one can have an honest difference of opinion about Bush/Blair/whoever.

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Anyone who disagrees with you must be lying, or twisting the facts, or have an agenda to discredit you.

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I know you've accused me of all these things.

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But, then, you're the person who thinks accusing someone of "Spouting Drivel" is not an insult.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
First of all, you chopped Webster's definition. A full defintion is right here: A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form 1. A makes claim X 2. There is something objectionable about A 3. Therefore claim X is false. Britt is not a doctor, his book is sold poorly, therefore his article is wrong. Ad hominem ("against the man")

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“Free Inquiry is apparently the house organ of the Council for Secular Humanism.” -geezer
So??? innuendo- signy
Back to Webster's II:"House Organ n. A periodical published by a business organization for its employees or clients." No innuendo there either, Just noting who publishes "Free Enquiry". Sheesh.-Geezer

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Yeah, and back to chopped defintions. "Where the worlds of publishing and politics meet, "house organ" is frequently used in a pejorative sense for a magazine or newspaper that is overly partisan for a political party, corporation, or ideology. Innuendo.

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