IMMIGRATION by impression

Why are the words “Hard worker” only used when one is speaking about white men? I guess everyone else doesn’t work hard, everyone else must be lazy. Someone needs to wake that boy up from his dream. These Rightwing creepoids are getting out of hand.

All the illegal immigrants now have the numbers to be able to come out and rant. It’s our fault that they managed to make it here. We didn’t protect our borders well enough. We spent years taking advantage of a rapidly, growing illegal aliens population. We even gave them jobs just so we could save a buck, and now we are screaming and crying that their populations is large enough to have the numbers, so now they are in the streets, screaming for their rights? It numbs the mind. This problem is our fault. This problem is the end result of our, collective, laziness. We need to get up off or lazy asses and take some responsibility.

So what do we do? Round them up and ship them back across the border? That would be a great, video boon for networks all over the world….seeing images of illegals being hauled off while they are screaming and crying “I love America!” That would look splendid on CNN! Then the rest of the world would really see our true colors. Or do we actually do something like take responsibility for our laziness, and tighten our border security. Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

River Unplugged

You make me sick

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:34 AM

IANW

i have a question:

the illegal immigrants are boycotting US goods today to make their impact. Are they going to boycot medicaid too?

oh wait, tax paying,legal americans are paying for that, nevermind....

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:45 AM

Alot of illegal aliens actually pay taxes. They can do it without being punished, get a tax paying number and pay their taxes.

I agree with the earlier post that it is our fault. Why should these people who have built a life here be punished because we didn't secure our borders. If we were defending them strongly for all these years, and we were trying to track down all the illegal immigrants it would be different. Then I would say deport them because they were hiding from our police forces.

A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:53 AM

KAYLEESTHEGREATEST

i heard of that movement this morning on the news this morning.

Someday the verse will spit in your soup but at least they gave you soup.
one day
one plan
one mission
one army of browncoats
june 23rd serenity day

-Our mission as browncoats is to make us known.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:57 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

Well said, R.

Chrisisall Unleashed

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:57 AM

Everyone just remember one small detail.

The colonists on the Mayflower were illegal immigrants too.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:11 AM

ONETOOMANY

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

I agree with you about the necessity for going after the companies who hire migrant workers, but there seems to be this belief among some immigrants that people immigrating to a new country don't need to intigrate themselves into the culture by doing things like learning the native language, political & judicial systems, history. In my opinion "OPINION" since the logistics of deporting or arresting the several million people here make it almost impossible. why not register them & give them 9 mos. to a year to legally obtain citizenship. After the initial registration period of oh say 90 days cut off the ability to register for the program & begin arresting & deporting everyone they can get thier hands on. Bottom line If your going to immigrate anywhere do it the right way. It is your responsibility to learn the ways & language of what ever cultre your intigrating to.

P.S. Vyse, I'm not slammin on you, you're quote just gave me a good rant

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:32 AM

Since im not as capable of moving around when replying to other posts, im gunna do each one at a time...river6213....i never said that other people werent hard-working and i wasnt talkin solely about only men...i was using a description of one of many types of average people who dont get a chance to speak when minorities and everyone else does...and minorities, women, whatever...all hard-workers...so get that out of ur mind that im talking about one person-white male...cuz i definitely say different....also...i agree with what you say about everything after your hard-worker comment...im just trying to get a feel for what people are thinking and hear different opinions so that i can justly make mine because sometimes people can have tunnel vision and not see things til its too late and i dont wanna be one of those people

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:36 AM

To both IANW and VYSE....about the taxes and medicaid...my grandmothers friend lives in california and she would sit out on her porch at the beginning of the month and watch the mexicans cross the border, pick up their welfare checks from a house that they "live in" and go back across the border...so yeah they may have ways of paying taxes but how many of them actually take the time to do that if there are easier ways to hide from taxes as well as boycott everything except the medicaid we give them as IANW states

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:40 AM

history lesson real quick....the vikings landed in canada first...finding north america....the spanish landed in central america and parts of the southern region of north america....the mayflower came last....so when the mexicans wanna claim that whole native american thing...the spanish came here first and gave the indians of mexico disease first and everything that the british are claimed to have done to the native americans...the spanish were here first doing that...so both countries are at fault and the mexicans cannot even claim such things as well once upon a time the mayflower was illegal immigrants without taking the time to say that the spaniards were illegal immigrants too...if im wrong...please correct me...

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:43 AM

This isn't just about Mexican immigrants, it's about all immigrants. The majority of people throwing stones about illegal immigration have European ancestry, and the fact that they don't acknowledge their own history concerning this matter is hypocritical.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 6:50 AM

Today is May Day. Today is also International Worker's Day. The rallies in the U.S. are primarily focused on the immigrant labor force (legal and illegal); however, there are worker rallies all over the world today. I think there is a really big one in Indonesia protesting proposed changes in labor laws.

The basic gist I get is this (I don't know a lot because I don't follow immigration. It's not one of the 3 issues dear to my heart and I don't really mind them all that much, even when illegal): We have a decent sized population of illegal immigrants primarily from Mexico, Central, and maybe South America. Bush has legislation that I think, essentially grants working visas to those that are here already and then seriously restricts the ability to get here in the future. There is some other legislation in the works to make it a felony to even help illegal immigrants (including medical). I disagree with the last because it's a doctor's duty to help those in need, regardless of political status, but I digress. So I think most of the marches are in support of Bush's legislation, or at least part of it.

But I do think a more effective approach would be to go after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants than the immigrants themselves. However, if we did that I feel we'd find that a number of our wealthy politicians have illegal immigrants for nannies, groundskeepers, and homebuilders. Majority of the houses in Jupiter, FL are built by Guatemalans. Most of the nannies down there are Guatemalan.

The thing is, everyone is bitching about the illegals being here, but if you stop and think about it many aspects of our daily lives have been constructed by these illegal immigrants.

Some are against them because they are "taking jobs away from Americans". I don't know that I buy that. Maybe in a few instances yes, but not too much. Most work incredibly low paying jobs that no one else wants because one must lead a lifestyle right near the poverty line and no one wants that. However the immigrants are evidence that it is possible to survive on very little money (though not easy. Read "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" for evidence).

And now that I've gotten completely tangential, I'm going to stop rambling. Ultimately, I sometimes think it's an issue that's been brought to the forefront to distract people from other administration failings, just this one happened to get way more people worked up than gay rights and women's reproductive rights (though all issues arguably fall under the heading "human rights").

P.S. There's a thread about this in RWED

EDIT: Free speech hasn't gotten carried away. If you have an issue you can bring it up. It's just the incredibly vocal fundies label anyone who speaks out about reproductive rights a "baby killing liberal whore" or people who protest the war as "anti-American" and "on the side of the terrorists". It's hard to speak up anymore without getting shot down by our borderline fascist government, but this issue has rallied people on all sides of the spectrum because the left is focused on the rights of the immigrants and the right (business) doesn't want to lose the cheap labor force.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:09 AM

MONKSDAD

The 11 million people that have made it here are here, and I cant blame them for wanting to come here, our country is just shiny compared to Mexico. But They are not going anywere. The focus needs to be on how to stop the flow of the next 11 million at the border. I do have to say that there boycott/wildcat strike is going to totally backfire on them and is a bad idea.

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:13 AM

JRC

My opinion on these illegal immigrants: they should all do what my grandparents did: become naturalized citizens (yes, I am Hispanic). Maybe give them a year to do it. Otherwise, ship 'em outta here, and use the Border Patrol and military (National Guard or regular Army) to guard both the southern and northern borders (didn't terrorists infiltrate America crossing the border with Canada?) Also, fine employers who knowingly hire illegals to work for them.
Why would these people think they could come here to America illegally and then expect the same rights and priveleges as legal immigrants and American citizens???

Everyone dies alone.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

I agree with you about the necessity for going after the companies who hire migrant workers, but there seems to be this belief among some immigrants that people immigrating to a new country don't need to intigrate themselves into the culture by doing things like learning the native language, political & judicial systems, history. In my opinion "OPINION" since the logistics of deporting or arresting the several million people here make it almost impossible. why not register them & give them 9 mos. to a year to legally obtain citizenship. After the initial registration period of oh say 90 days cut off the ability to register for the program & begin arresting & deporting everyone they can get thier hands on. Bottom line If your going to immigrate anywhere do it the right way. It is your responsibility to learn the ways & language of what ever cultre your intigrating to.

P.S. Vyse, I'm not slammin on you, you're quote just gave me a good rant

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

Very true. I live in northeastern PA, I'm a full time college student, and a part time cashier/manager at a supermarket. There are some people who shop there regularly who speak NO english at all. I agree that those people need to learn some english. They don't have to be 100% fluent, but know the basic language. I don't expect them to know big words our own President doesn't know.

The government also needs to make the legal immigration process faster. If you are just an everyday person who wants to move to America, it can take up to 10 years before you can take the citizenship tests.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

Well said, R.

Chrisisall Unleashed

Yes this explains my feeling perfectly. We let them in this country. We let them work and build a life here. We can't take that away after the fact because we were lazy and didn't secure our borders.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Everyone just remember one small detail.

The colonists on the Mayflower were illegal immigrants too.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

This is true, but you also have to remember, those Mayflower, illegal aliens also brought along a whole bunch of firepower too, along with their lying tongues. The Natives that were already there didn’t know what kind of trouble showed up on their doorstep. The Mayflower illegal aliens also were deeply religious, but they considered the Native population of North America as savages.

A lot of tribes at 1st tried to help out those illegal aliens, but then they paid the price when those illegal aliens went forth to steal their land, and engage in genocidal activities against the Natives, with the help of slaves that they got from Africa, who the illegals also considered savages. They did all of this in the name of God of course.

More illegal aliens poured in. The Africans were beaten up on and forced to do a lot of work under the contempt of the illegal aliens. The Natives were pretty much forced into mass relocation camps, and more illegal aliens poured into the country, while the ruling classes in charge of the country wrote document after documents talking about the freedom of humanity; how all men should be free. They did this while owning slaves and considering the Native population savages.

Several wars later the ruling class decided to free the slaves, but then busied themselves with terrorizing them straight up into the 20 Century, and even to this day regard the black man as inferior, a waste of life not to be trusted, or honored, and not worthy of humanity, though, there are a lot of laws in place that says that the ruling illegal aliens must treat the dark-skinned ones with a measure of respect, there is an underlying, covert hostility. An unspoken thought that if there weren’t any such bill of rights or civil rights, there would be mass genocide, and/or mass deportations. Meanwhile, the Natives are still in their reservations.

Give me you’re your tired, your poor…..

Meanwhile, more aliens show up, some legally and some illegally. The Majority illegal aliens decided that having these new illegal aliens around are good for business….a new slave population that we can use and totally take advantage of, and not have to worry about paying for insurance, heath care, or any of the other fail safes that humans tend to need in a modern society….and we can pay them pennies! What a deal! But then came the day when the illegal alien’s numbers past the 11 million mark, and those aliens hit the street and started to demonstrate. The Majority illegal aliens collectively, momentarily stopped their back-biting, and observed this new political animal demonstrating on the streets in almost every major city in the United States.

Regardless if the original illegal aliens did come here on the Mayflower…Whoever has the guns, and the firepower, are the ones that are going to set policy. This is the nature of human beings as demonstrated time after time in the books of human history. Whoever has the weapons are going to be the ones who says what goes. Do it our way or die.

The European countries technology advanced quicker than everyone else on the planet because it fought itself all the time. The more wars they had (and they had a lot) the quicker their technology advanced. Then they decide to go sailing about the world and they found other races that do have wars, but their wars are on another level, therefore, technological advancements are slower. The Europeans take this as a sign that these people are savages, or weak, and they started to dominate them, because they had guns, cannons, and the ability to exert their wills on other cultures.

I had a point to make in here somewhere, but I’m angry now and it’s hard to type this crap out with one hand.

River

River struggles to find the hand of God in all of this

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Monday, May 1, 2006 7:42 AM

You have a great point, but firepower or no, that doesn't make them right. The hundans that run this country have no right to pass judgement on illegal immigrants now when their own ancestors are guilty of the same thing. Especially considering the fact that their ancestors committed genocide on the original occupants of this country, and present day illegals are only trying to make a better life for themselves.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:33 AM

okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:45 AM

MONKSDAD

actually evidence points to the vikings landing here first

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:52 AM

SASSALICIOUS made a point of this in their thread, but I had a few things to add.

People who are in opposition to illegal immigrants on this thread have had some interesting points, but consider this. How many people are willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants do and for the same amount of money that they earn? Does anyone here want to earn two dollars an hour picking fruit? Cleaning other people's bathrooms? Taking care of their kids? If people that want to pick up the slack that would be left after all the illegal immigrants are gone, then by all means, keep up this 'throw them out with the bathwater' business. The truth of the matter is, illegal immigrants fill an important spot in the American economy that no one else is really willing to fill. Until that changes, no one has the right to say anything.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 8:56 AM

PACKINHEAT

I say we do what Mexico does to its Illegal Immigrants. Take their money, possessions, land (if any), and then throw them either A. across the border or B. in jail.

Ok I don’t really think we should do that, but that’s what good old Mexico does… Oh and in Mexico if you are born in another country and take the time to become a citizen in Mexico, BY LAW you can’t own land. Just some food for thought.

oh and DEEPGIRL187 they take plenty of jobs that pay well, that many LEGAL Americans would be willing to take.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:13 AM

SANDS

They don’t mention that Code Pink has had a major part in the organization of today’s events.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:14 AM

AMITON

I'm confused on a few things, and I will say up front that I'm one of the people that is rather upset about the support of illegal aliens in this country.

First, why is is such a bad thing to deny these individuals rights in the US? The fact of the matter is, for whatever reasons - good or bad, that a conscious decision was made to take residence in the US in violation of American law. Period.

Second, why is blanket forgiveness for this a "good" option? Again, these people are in the US in blatant violation of US law. There are huge numbers of people patiently waiting in line and paying thousands of dollars and waiting *years* while being forced to continue to live outside of the country because they are making the responsible choice of trying to immigrate into the US in accordance with US law. There isn't a *single* illegal immigrant in the US that doesn't know that the punishment for being caught in the country illegally is deportation. It doesn't matter how long you've been in country illegally, and it doesn't matter how hard you've worked or how much you've paid in taxes. The law has been broken, and it was broken with intent and knowledge of the penalty. There's no way around that. So somehow the "proper" course of action is to punish those who adhere to the law, and reward the people who flagrantly disregard it?

Third, where did this concept that early colonists were illegal immigrants come from? We'll discard the idea that empires and colonization was a standard practice at the time, and there was no formal claim to the land that came to be the New England colonies. There was no country to begin with. There was no law established that would be violated to make them illegal. Even further down that road, indiginous Native Americans didn't have a concept of land ownership. The tribes were nomadic, particularly the Shinicock, Mohawk, Sioux, and Mohican people of the east coast of North America. They welcomed the new neighbors. I will grant that the colonists deeply violated that trust and did a lot of awful things. Perhaps the whole statement was meant as a metaphor? Just the same, though, it didn't really apply the way that it seemed to be intended.

I don't blame the illegal immigrants for taking their chances in the US, and I do agree that the US is largely to blame for the situation that is at hand now. I also agree that it is important to take action against the companies that hire illegal immigrants, and that action needs to be severe enough to actively discourage the practice. I do not, however, agree that somehow everybody should just look away and let the transgression pass. The illegal immigrants have to be held accountable for their actions. To turn a blind eye and just sweep everything under the carpet sends a very bad message, and there is no justifiable reason for it at this stage.

I'm sorry, and I don't want to be mean, but I haven't seen the enlightenment being espeoused by the supporters of the illegal immigrants. It could be that I'm just dense, but most of what I've seen hasn't really addressed the issue, it just tells the US to roll over and be taken advantage of.

Amiton.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by impression:
okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

Do you know the actual reason why white people in the north were opposed to slavery in the south during the civil war era? They thought it made white people lazy, that it was making white people weaker. It had nothing to do with them thinking slavery is wrong.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:19 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

not saying I am "for" or "against", but tell me what "good paying jobs" illegal immigrants take? I live in a Gulf Coasst community and there are a lot of Mexicans here, don't know if they are legal or not, but will say they do sh*t jobs for barely minimum wage and they work like dogs. The people that hire them are taking advantage.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:26 AM

AMITON

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
How many people are willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants do and for the same amount of money that they earn? Does anyone here want to earn two dollars an hour picking fruit? Cleaning other people's bathrooms? Taking care of their kids? If people that want to pick up the slack that would be left after all the illegal immigrants are gone, then by all means, keep up this 'throw them out with the bathwater' business. The truth of the matter is, illegal immigrants fill an important spot in the American economy that no one else is really willing to fill. Until that changes, no one has the right to say anything.

This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:26 AM

MALSHEART

Why are we having this discussion on this site? I understand many of you are passionate about this topic, but this kind of talk is downright exclusive (as opposed to inclusive). I am tempted not to come back, which would be a gorram shame, us UK Browncoats need to be kept on side. I could spend a long time talking to you about migration, but I'd need to look you in the eye...remember Mal an co are "illegal" and most definitely migrant workers...

there was no end...

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:26 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:

P.S. There's a thread about this in RWED

And that's where this thread belongs as well. :)

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by malsheart:
Why are we having this discussion on this site? I understand many of you are passionate about this topic, but this kind of talk is downright exclusive (as opposed to inclusive). I am tempted not to come back, which would be a gorram shame, us UK Browncoats need to be kept on side. I could spend a long time talking to you about migration, but I'd need to look you in the eye...remember Mal an co are "illegal" and most definitely migrant workers...

there was no end...

This is the real world part of the forums. If you don't wanna talk about it go to the other sections.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

I do agree with you in the fact that corporations should be punished. I just think that our government should take their share of the responsibility rather than placing all the blame on immigrants.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

I do agree with you in the fact that corporations should be punished. I just think that our government should take their share of the responsibility rather than placing all the blame on immigrants.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

That is all this Government does though, blame any other reason for problems in the country except themselves, and that goes for both parties. The truth is that politicians and their corporate pals depend on these cheap workers. They are greedy, and want to keep as much money to themselves as possible.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by impression:
okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

Oh but you are wrong. I feel totally responsible for everything that is wrong with the United States today. I inherited the result of all the bad decisions making of our forefathers; we all have, and the immigration problem in this current day is just as much my fault as it is any citizen who lives here.

Also, I know my history. I was being general to get a certain point across, and you are correct, history already happened, but I don’t understand the “get over yourself” remark. Humans have a long memory when something bad happens to them, or their group. The United States will never forget Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Japan will never forget being nuked twice back in WW2. The Jews will never forget the holocaust. China will never forget, nor forgive the rape of Nan king; Black American’s will never forget that they were slaves and considered property at one time. The Natives in the North America region will never forget the lies, the genocides, and the total barbarous, back-stabbing nature of the white man. No nation that was touched in a negative fashion by Germany from WW2 will ever forget it, and all of these nations will make certain that once every year, they will remind us all of the atrocities that one group had met out to another. It’s our nature. Its human nature, so I’m uncertain about this “get over yourself” remark.

I judge a big man how he treats a small man. I judge a big nation how it treats smaller nations. I judge the rich how they treat the poor. I am very interested how this whole illegal immigration issue will turn out. This is another splendid opportunity to see what we are made of. You have to remember…this issue was made into an issue because we didn’t take the time, or the money to police our own borders. We were lazy…plain and simple, and now we are reaping the results of those actions. We can’t easily sweep this issue under the rug, and the whole world is watching.

In a way, this issue will sum up for the whole world what the United States has become. I for one think its time to show the world what we really are; it’s time to show the truth, but since this issue is political dynamite, only time will tell.

River

This is why I stay away from the news channel

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Monday, May 1, 2006 11:41 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060501/ap_on_re_us/immigration_boycott_da
y

Like I said, I don't really care about this issue very much, but I had to say my favorite part of the article was this quote: "You should send all of the 13 million aliens home, then you take all of the welfare recipients who are taking a free check and make them do those jobs," said Jack Culberson, a retired Army colonel who attended the Pensacola rally. "It's as simple as that."

Majority of welfare recipients aren't getting a "free check" unless they are severely disabled and/or mentally ill. States require that one work some minimum amount and usually kick one off after a few years. Hell, even the lowest rungs on the military infrastructure receive some welfare benefits because they certainly don't make enough, especially if they have a family.

You also make the point that most people would do those jobs for a legal amount. That "legal amount" in just about every state is below a living wage. In WI, it's $5.15/hr and a living wage in Madison is around $10/hr, I believe. It's very near impossible to survive on that amount, especially with children EVEN if you magage to get aid (again, see book referenced in previous post). You also said that the homeless would probably be willing to work those jobs. A number of homeless people actually have jobs. Not all, you're right, but many do. They just don't make enough to keep a proper roof over their head.

But I do agree with you that the businesses have a fair part of the blame for generating a market for illegal immigrants.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:23 PM

OMG!
Did I miss something in the news? Is something supposed to be going on today? Is today special?
I decided to try my hand at driving my Jaguar to downtown Seattle to see too a few things at the office. BTW, its good to be able to drive again!

Well, here I sit, in traffic...stopped dead by what is starting to look like more than 50,000 people demonstrating. There are a hundreds of very pissed off looking cops milling about, and the communters are all mad as hell! I'm writing from my wireless laptop. Thank goodness I brought some coffee and my cellphone with me!

The people stuck in traffic are out of their cars and are in an ugly mood. Its rush hour here right now and I guess the demonstrators picked this time to make their point. Well, I guess we can't ignore them now. I guess I won't be going anywhere, and I can't turn around, so I guess I'm stuck here.

I guess this issue regarding illegal immigration isnt going away anytime soon. I hope our leaders find a solution to this mess that we can all feel okay about.

P.S. Are you aware that gas prices jumped up!!! I had to pay $3.00 a gallon!!!! OMG!!! This is what I get for not paying attention to the news!!!!

A Stunted River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:31 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
P.S. Are you aware that gas prices jumped up!!! I had to pay $3.00 a gallon!!!! OMG!!! This is what I get for not paying attention to the news!!!!

A Stunted River

It's $3.39 per gallon for regular down here in San Diego. Last week, it jumped by something like 17 cents in three hours (no I'm not kidding. the local news had ongoing hourly coverage of the price changes).

Also down here, we were severely shorthanded at work. Businesses, schools, and other places are all at least a little shorthanded. At the local high school today, it averaged 19 students per classroom absent.

The goal of this protest is to show us all what the economy would be like if immigrants didn't show up for work. As far as I'm concerned, this is definitely one of the stupidest things the pro-immigration activists have ever done. Not only has it been innefective, but it has sent the wrong message. Of all the millions they are trying to convince, something like 15% will probably get it and agree, 25%won't give a

, and 60% will just be really pissed off. Most people see that they are intentionally trying to hurt the economy. As far as I know, that isn't how you ingratiate yourself with folks (but, you know, that's just me).

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:41 PM

$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

I guess they feel that if they don't attempt to rock our boats, we won't listen....they may have a point there, but I really don't particularly enjoy sitting here in traffic, so that alone is pissing me off even though I understand their cause. But we have to look at the insanity part of all of this...Illegal immigrants are "demanding" their rights! They must pick another way of approaching this issue without pissing everyone off.

River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:49 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

Why do we consistently take these stories as they are framed by the media? All of a sudden illegal immigration is the new scourge because the media says so, and its "those damned illegals who are ignoring our laws and have no respect for our system."

Quit taking the bait. If you actually cared about this issue, you wouldn't be looking for the little guys to pin it on. The problem is big companies are benefitting from this...big companies are benefitting from people coming across the border, which is why the government they fund has no interest in doing anything real about it. Do you think the companies care if you start convicting illegals on felonies? They could give a rats ass. There will be more where that came from.

Did illegalizing drugs stop that traffic? Nope. In fact, the drug trade is way more profitable than it was before it was a crime, and more people are addicted to drugs.

You just don't stop something which there is a demand for. If there's a demand, people will fill it. So, if you want to stop illegal immigration, quit being angry at the other half of the victims, and start being angry at our government for not holding these companies accountable for dangling this carrot on our side of the border.

You want to improve our standard of living? Give those illegals who are already here some rights, so that they are not a preferable choice to American citizens when it comes to hiring.

I don't understand why we constantly keep running around in the same circles on this. We all agree. Illegal immigration is a problem. Do you want to fix the problem or do you want to find a scapegoat for it?

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:53 PM

I actually think that people are shocked by how many of these illegals there really are here.

Who are you talking too?

River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 2:58 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

Over here in the UK prices recently topped £1 a LITRE, which is over £3.78 0r ~$6.83 per US Gallon. When you're paying that much talk to me, cause your fuel prices sound pretty damn cheap to me

.

Poor Oil companies though, they are having a rough old time of it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4672716.stm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 3:10 PM

I found Gas prices this on the net based on the US dollar:

UK TEESIDE $5.64
HONG KONG HONG KONG $5.62
UK MILFORD HAVEN $5.56
UK READING $5.56
UK NORWICH $5.54
GERMANY FRANKFURT $5.29
DENMARK COPENHAGEN $5.08
NORWAY STAVANGER $5.07
NORWAY OSLO $4.93
ITALY ROME $4.86
TURKEY ISTANBUL $4.85
PORTUGAL LISBON $4.80
KOREA SEOUL $4.71
SWITZERLAND GENEVA $4.56
KOREA KOJE/OKPO $4.53
AUSTRIA VIENNA $4.50
CROATIA ZAGREB $4.32
JAPAN TOKYO $3.84
AUSTRALIA SYDNEY $2.63
CAMBODIA PHNOM PENH $2.57
TAIWAN TAIPEI $2.47
GEORGIA TBILISI $2.31
LAOS VIENTIANE $1.66
THAILAND BANGKOK $1.60
CHINA TIANJIN $1.54
CHINA SHANGHAI $1.48
RUSSIA MOSCOW $1.45
KAZAKHSTAN ALMATY $1.36
KAZAKHSTAN ATYRAU $1.35
TAJIKISTAN DUSHANBE $1.32
AZERBAIJAN BAKU $1.15
VENEZUELA CARACAS $0.14

I guess Venezuela is the place to be for gas prices.

Why the hit and run Civilian?

Anyway. The demonstrators are heading for the federal building on 4th Ave. Its a sea of humanity, and I'll say it again...its rush hour here right now, and people here are pissed. I hope no one decides to start any trouble. I also hear that the numbers are 20 to 25,000.

This is a traffic nightmare!

River

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Monday, May 1, 2006 3:46 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

Over here in the UK prices recently topped £1 a LITRE, which is over £3.78 0r ~$6.83 per US Gallon. When you're paying that much talk to me, cause your fuel prices sound pretty damn cheap to me .

Poor Oil companies though, they are having a rough old time of it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4672716.stm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

************************************
Europe has always had higher gas prices because of the inaccesability of oil in the region. That's why most Europeans drive (by American standards) incredibly small and efficient cars. In america, however, folks don't think long term. That's why we have SUVs and muscle cars. For Americans, $3.39 per gallon is pretty damn expensive considering that many have to refuel twice a week or more. In the end, this could be a positive thing though, spurring the developement of cheaper hybrids and/or alternative sources of fuel.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 4:56 PM

I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:10 PM

It's May Day, which is also International Worker's Day.

Today is the "Day Without an Immigrant". Immigrants (both legal and illegal) and their supporters were supposed to skip work/class today.

Results have been interesting.

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Monday, May 1, 2006 5:14 PM