REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Defense of Home

POSTED BY: STILLFLYIN
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 9, 2006 21:32
SHORT URL:
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


My experience -

Having been burgled, stalked and attacked on more than one occasion, I have to say it makes a difference how big, how many, and whether or not they're armed; and whether or not you have other options.

The time I was assaulted (repeatedly punched and attempted to be shoved to the ground), since there was only one person roughly my size and unarmed, I was pretty comfortable without a weapon. I simply stood my ground until the attacker got frustrated and ran off.

In two other instances I was glad that a third person showed up (on deserted city streets at night) and caused the stalker to move off. Both stalkers were bigger and had cars while I was on foot. Numerous times I've been on foot and evaded stalkers in cars who were closely following me by ducking into yards and other private property (again on deserted streets where there were no other cars or people around).

During a home invasion I was glad I had access to a gun (the person never entered the room so it never became a confrontation.)

And I've come home to find it was broken into on more than one occasion. I yelled into the house that I would be back in 20 minutes, so get out. Then I went to the neighbors and called the police.

So, no, I don't feel the need to be armed to the teeth and ready to shoot as an all-occasion response. It depends on situation and available options.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


ChrisIsAll,
"There is the notion that if you don't use your weapon, someone else will..."

That's what I've been taught. If you wave a gun around you must assume that if the other person has a gun, they will shoot you. Therefore, you must shoot first rather than take the chance that you've targeted yourself for gunfire.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
ChrisIsAll,
"There is the notion that if you don't use your weapon, someone else will..."

That's what I've been taught. If you wave a gun around you must assume that if the other person has a gun, they will shoot you. Therefore, you must shoot first rather than take the chance that you've targeted yourself for gunfire.



Actually, I was alluding to the possibility that pulling a gun and taking the time to threaten someone is giving them that half-second they need to disarm you (should they be adept at such actions) and shoot you with your own weapon...

But, what you said, too.

Chrisisall, mugged three times, lost only once ('cause the first time I was twelve!!!)

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:17 PM

CRAJON


I am a police office here in Arkansas. We have the conceal permit law and believe me, people here do carry weapons. And they use them. The news here is carrying story about a person who broke into a home and was shot by the home owner. The home owner was in the right. Maybe not in every state but here its legal.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


ChrisIsAll,

PS That's the problem with pulling out a gun. You may escalate the danger rather than lower it.

To get back to the time I was being pounded on: the reason I didn't actively fight back (though I knew how) was b/c the person attacking me seemed half-hearted. Their goal seemed more to intimidate me into giving up. If I had amped it up to serious damage, I had the sense I would then be fighting for my life. You have to use your judgement.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.


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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
If I had amped it up to serious damage, then I had the sense I would been fighting for my life. You have to use your judgement.



Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, for all life is sacred, nor can any be replaced.

I get that. Actually, for all my tough talk, I believe that. I never hit an attacker even one more time than I had to to end the fight (not that there were so many). In one confrontation, I took a blow, and returned none. That act of non-agression ended the confrontation, and forgive the sin, I'm especially proud of that.


Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:49 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:

Quote:

PIRATENEWS SAID:

"Read the communist Manifesto to see that victim dissarmament zones and abolition of the death penalty are designed to ESCALATE violence"



O.K. so I've got a copy of the Communist Manifesto right in front of me now (which you must have read to have made that statement right? So don't tell me I'm a commie for having one).
Kindly point out to me the passage to which the above statement refers (just so you can prove yourself right). It must be in there otherwise you would'nt have said it right?



I realize you have never heard of Google, so I'll do your homework for you, you lazy illiterate Commie. Commie 4th Plank bans guns, since all citizens are classified as terrorists, slaves, "rebels".

Quote:

"Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels."
-Communist Manifesto, 4th Plank
(Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).)
ARE Americans practicing Communism?
www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about glasnost’ (Ed. Note: "openness") and perestroika (Ed. Note: "restructuring") and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be NO significant internal changes in the Soviet Union [i.e., Russia], other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to DISARM the Americans and let them fall asleep.
-Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev (former KGB chief and Soviet leader arrested for stealing $3.5-Billion; statement made in a speech to the Soviet Politburo in November 1987)

(Ed. Note: Gorbachev (former KGB) was "promoted" from being head of the Soviet Union to being a high-paid consultant on the dismantling of U.S. military bases. Two other former KGB/FSB (the Soviet/Russian secret police) chiefs (Yevgeny Primakov and General Karpov) are now in the USA as high-paid consultants to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. What’s wrong with this picture?)

"One of the basic conditions for the victory of socialism is…the disarming of the bourgeoisie (the middle class)."
–Vladimir I. Lenin (1870-1924; Russian revolutionary; leader of the Bolsheviks Communists; former premier of the USSR)

"I am one who believes that as a first step the U.S. should move expeditiously to disarm the civilian population, other than police and security officers, of all handguns, pistols and revolvers…no one should have a right to anonymous ownership or use of a gun."
-Professor Dean Morris, former Director of the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (L.E.A.A.)

"The manufacture of armaments would be prohibited except for those of agreed types and quantities to be used by the U.N. Peace Force and those required to maintain internal order. All other armaments would be destroyed or converted to peaceful purposes."
-Excerpt from State Department Paper 7277

"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: what would things have been like IF every police operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been UNCERTAIN whether he would return alive? …IF during periods of mass arrests people had NOT simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they HAD NOTHING TO LOSE and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? ...the organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers…and not withstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt."
–Major Alexander Isayevich Solzhenitsyn (Russian author & Nobel Prize recipient who spent 11 years in Soviet slave labor camps)

www.tacklingthetoughtopics.net/Eberhart/eberhart_gun_control_stinks.ht
ml




Dial 911 and Die: The Shocking Truth about the Police Protection Myth
www.jpfo.org

Operation Vampire Killer 2000
by Police Against the New World Order
Officer Jack McLamb Radio Show
www.JackMcLamb.com
www.theamericanvoice.com

In 1870, there were no laws regulating the possession, purchase, and peaceful carrying of firearms in Britain. Anyone, child or adult, could buy a pistol, load it, and carry it under his coat with no legal consequences. As late as 1920, the law presented no obstacle to an adult without a criminal history purchasing a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, and carrying it concealed upon his person.[1] Yet today, Britain has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world.

"The Firearms Act of 1920 was a watershed of British firearms control. From its passage, the ownership of firearms ceased to be a right of Englishmen, and instead became a privilege -- one increasingly restricted over the intervening 75 years. Under the direction of the Home Office, police discretion in licensing throughout Britain has made ownership of firearms an increasingly rare event. Why was the Firearms Act of 1920 passed? There are several possible causes for the Firearms Act of 1920, all of which are plausible explanations: concern about criminal misuse of firearms; gun-running to Ireland; increased political violence in the pre-World War I period. Yet examination of the Cabinet papers declassified in 1970, and Cabinet Secretary Thomas Jones' diaries, shows that all of these other concerns were insignificant compared to the fear of Bolshevik revolution. First of all, it is necessary to clearly understand that the absence of firearms controls was not because low crime rates made them unnecessary, but because Britons considered the possession of arms to be a right. The English Bill of Rights (1689) asserted by its passage that the people were "vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties," including the seventh article:
Quote:


7. That the subjects which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions, and as allowed by law.


-FEAR AND LOATHING IN WHITEHALL ENGLAND: BOLSHEVISM AND THE FIREARMS ACT OF 1920
www.claytoncramer.com/firear~1.htm

"United Nations efforts relating to disarmament and demobilization have advanced considerably. It is acknowledged the weapons are political bargaining tools and have significance beyond their function. Restore the power monopoly of the state: Limit access to and usage of arms to legitimate security forces in an environment of respect for human rights and international humanitarian law."
-United Nations Corporation (53 votes by British Commonwealth), SECTION 3 DISARMAMENT AND DEMOBILIZATION, October 2004
www.iss.org.za/pubs/Monographs/No106/Sec3.htm

GOA TV and Live Fire Radio
http://gunownersofamerica.com

The Battle of Athens Tennessee
All-night gun battle and Citizen's Arrests of the entire McMinn County Sheriff Dept for election fraud in 1947
http://geocities.com/redneckelectiondeathmatch

"Those that vote decide nothing, those who count the vote decide everything."
-Uncle Joe Stalin, convicted felon bank robber, genocidal president of Communist Russia



Various Commie congresses have declared their plot for disarmament of the population, which is mandatory before genocide of 90% of world's population by global Commie New World Odor, just like Commie Gangsta Govts genocided 100-million of their own slaves in the past 100 years. Marx wrote "his" Communist Manifesto in London England, where his table is proudly on display in the London Museum, according to BBC TV News. Do your own search and find the exact quote.

Communist Canada, oqned by the Queen of England's 53-nation British Commonwealth, which annexed USA via NAFTA, bans all use of firearms for self defense or concealed carry, and requires permission by letter before any person can transport any firearm, such as to or from a gun store, or to a gun range. This Communist conspiracy has banned all firearms in Washington DC and New York City, the only two cities attacked by terrorist dictator Jr Bush on 9/11/2001, and in the federal city New Orleans during Jr Bush's bombing of the levees after Cat 3 hurricane Katrina in 2005. Washington DC and New Orleans were bombed and burned by the British Empire during the 2nd American Revolutionary War of 1812.


Quote:



"In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation."
-Prince Philip, de facto King of British Empire, married to his incestuous cousin the German Queen of England Elizabeth Sax Coburg Gotha
www.propagandamatrix.com/prince.html





"I've been shot too many times to be scared of a gun. That hat makes you look like an idiot."
-Womac, Alliance copster

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:22 PM

CHRISISALL


Piratenews, you should be asleep. Why are you posting at this hour? You have kids?
Quote:


you lazy illiterate Commie.



Bored now.


Willowisisall

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:37 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


I'm procrastinating, while watching/listening to The Money Masters of the Rothschild bankster dynasty, and posting. I woke up and started my day at 8pm, and I need to write a Motion for Bill of Costs to file in court, after winning a traffic citation for driving safely at 5mph. 2 judges already ordered that the State of Tennessee must pay all court costs, which includes my $600 invoice for my court reporter, police records and travel costs. Then I must test my video camera with a trial telepromter program, before I decide to buy one, or whether I should just build one at 1/10th the cost. Pain in the brain. Thus, I'm procrastinating.

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: The Money Masters
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4991544789166784731&q=The+Mon
ey+Masters&pl=true




Forget the lies of our oppressive Kaballistic Allied Governments.
-Huckster, The Message

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


AT one time my home was invaded. I grabbed a gun (happened to be a Remington 66) that didn't have ammo and then put it aside. Last thing I wanted was for someone to see a rifle sillhouetted in the dark and then shoot at ME.

I also had cop point a gun at me in the dark during a (later) home invasion. He mistook me for the robber in the dark.

The next day in a fit of nerves I almost blew the postman away with a short-barreled shotgun! (I was told I pumped on the run like a pro )

Guns: dangerous things!

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
2 judges already ordered that the State of Tennessee must pay all court costs, which includes my $600 invoice for my court reporter, police records and travel costs.

Honestly, that's cool.

Really, Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Guns: dangerous things!


Yeah, weapons commit you to some degree, ironically taking total control out of your hands.
Better to Jackie Chan or Kwai-Chang Cain it and put hands on...

Living in the world of perpetual motion Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:25 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:

Quote:

PIRATENEWS SAID:

"Read the communist Manifesto to see that victim dissarmament zones and abolition of the death penalty are designed to ESCALATE violence"



O.K. so I've got a copy of the Communist Manifesto right in front of me now (which you must have read to have made that statement right? So don't tell me I'm a commie for having one).
Kindly point out to me the passage to which the above statement refers (just so you can prove yourself right). It must be in there otherwise you would'nt have said it right?



I realize you have never heard of Google, so I'll do your homework for you, you lazy illiterate Commie.



What an awesome dodge! Not only did you manage to call him a Commie, you threw 900 links up to sites that didn't answer his question!

You made a claim as to what was in the Communist Manifesto, he asked you to back it up, and you couldn't. Oldenglanddry didn't ask for anyone else's opinion on what was in there, or what Stalin's take on it was, or what it had to do with your imaginary Jew-Alien-Midget-Leprechaun-Contortionist-Whatever conspiracy. He asked you to prove what you claimed was in it, and you dodged (after name-calling, no less).

Give him page and line, or admit in this thread that, in computer lingo (which I hate by the way, but which seems appropriate in this thread), you were PWNED.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:07 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Thank you SEVEN.
He seems to be reading from some far-right comic book interpretation of what they THINK the Communist Manifesto means (or says).

PIRATENEWS
I will send you a copy of the real Communist Manifesto if you want to actually read it.

Untill then please try to remove your head from your Arse.

By the way, Is the new world order Commie or British Empire? You dont seem to be able to make up your mind on that one either.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hi all,

I do not think that size and strength of an attacker should play into the force of your defense.

While I am not a martial artist, I have heard enough of them give the same tired old speech.

Namely, that your size and strength are unimportant. A 90 pound 5 foot weakling can take apart a 7 foot 300 pound individual with the right training.

The ONLY thing that should play into the force of your defense is whether or not you feel threatened. If said 90 pound weakling punches me and I feel no damage, I'm not likely to panic. But if said 90 pound weakling breaks my nose, I'm going to assume he's a competant attacker, become threatened, and respond with all due force until he stops or goes away.

There was a case in Florida where one man punched another. One punch. The victim died.

There's no good reason to attack someone who isn't threatening you or someone else. There is no reason to expect safety if you are an attacker. I would not advocate the death penalty for someone who beat me up, but if someone is beating me up and they die during my defense, I would not want to be convicted of a crime.

People who commit violent crime should have every reasonable expectation of violent defense.

90 pounds or 300 pounds, notwithstanding.

--Anthony




"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I try to ignore PN. Arguing only encourages him.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Guns: dangerous things!


Yeah, weapons commit you to some degree, ironically taking total control out of your hands.
Better to Jackie Chan or Kwai-Chang Cain it and put hands on...

Living in the world of perpetual motion Chrisisall



I'm not a martial artist, but I'm fairly competant with a firearm.

I don't think holding a weapon takes options away from you.

If the opponent has a gun, and you do not have a gun, you are essentially at his mercy. He may choose to let you live, or he may choose to let you die. There is no way to know which. But if he decides to kill you, you've got Nada.

If the opponent has a gun, and you have a gun, the opponent may choose to try to kill you or he may choose to leave with all due haste. There is no way to know which... but you do still have that gun.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 4:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Are you happy with a person being executed for being in his own home when a criminal decides to break in and kill him? The victim can’t know what the intent of a criminal who breaks into his or her house is, and the law shouldn’t require him to know what he can’t.


This is why you try to escape unless such a thing is impossible. If you force a confrontation it's more likely you'll end up dead than the intruder.
Quote:

If I know that’s all he’s after then you might have a point, but criminals rarely break in with a requisition order to assure me that he’s after my VCR. If I mistake him for trying to kill my daughter, I don’t think I should be held responsible for that mistake.

If you get yourself and your family out, if possible, this really isn't an issue.
Quote:

And don’t I have a right to protect my VCR? If it’s my VCR shouldn’t I have the right to take it back from him in a way that isn’t intended to kill him? Or does the act of breaking into someone’s house necessarily imply that the ownership of my VCR passes to the invader?

I never said the burglar has a right to your property because they broke in. I'm merely advocating the fairly common sense approach of not going Rambo on their arses. It's just stuff and most people are insured, so why put your life on the line to defend things that can be easily replaced with better newer things when the insurance pays out?

For what, the principle of the thing? If your happy putting your life on the line rather than escaping, getting yourself out of a dangerous situation and calling the police, for the sake of a few things then that's your decision.

Even *IF* the law said it's okay to gun down anyone you like for burglary no matter what the circumstances and it shouldn't, fact is your putting yourself in a very dangerous situation for the sake of a few cheap electrical goods. If you’re worried about your personal safety and that of your family then escaping is demonstrably the more effective means of defence.
Quote:

And I don’t think someone should be penalized for protecting his property.

And I don't think people should be given a free pass to murder because the person they murdered was in their house.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 4:37 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Citizen, what do you think of these scenarios?

A)I wake up to a noise and go downstairs to find two men stealing stuff. I say in a very manly, Terminator-like voice "Get out." They run, still holding some stuff, and I don't follow.

B)I wake up to a noise and go downstairs to find two men stealing stuff. I say in a very manly, Terminator-like voice "Get out." They drop what they're holding and rush me. I smash a lamp in one's face, and as I get grabbed by the other, I reach around and pinch his throat, Drunken-style. Maybe one dies, I dunno, because I'll leave it there...
Did I do wrong?


I'd suggest trying to get out yourself first, and if that's not possible try saying "The Police are on their way, get out!".

You see if the Police are coming the intruders are less likely to hang around to give you a hiding and more likely to just drop everything and run so that they don't get caught.

I see nothing particularly wrong with either scenario apart from that, except pinching the guys throat, you should palm strike to the face to tip the head back and expose the neck, then shaolin punched to the throat.

Much more satisfying.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 5:07 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I try to ignore PN. Arguing only encourages him.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.




I try to ignore him too, realy I do, I'm just not a strong person.
Apologies to all for sidetracking the thread but the other kid started it.
Please continue.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 6:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"If you get yourself and your family out, if possible, this really isn't an issue."

I can see it now...

"Psst. Honey. Honey. Honey! I think I heard something. Get your shoes on. Call the cops, and come on..."

Tip toe... through the tulips...

"Psst. Billy. *Nudge, Nudge* Billy, wake up. Get your shoes on. No, it's not time for school. There's someone in the house. No, it's okay. Just get your shoes on. Come on. Be vewwy vewwy quiet..."

Tip toe... through the tulips...

"Psst. Lizzie. No, it's not morning. There's a burglar in the house. No, it's okay. Don't freak out. Get your shoes on. No, no, it's okay. He's not going to get us. No, Lizzie, there's no reason to preemptively go down there and confront him. Yeah, I know we have to go down there anyway to escape. It's okay. A guy on the internet said this was a good idea. Come on. Be vewwy vewwy quiet..."

Tip toe... through the tulips...

"Hey there, Mr. Burglar. You weren't supposed to be in my escape route. Well, guess what? The police are on their way. You can run, now. What's that? Not running in fear? You obviously don't read the posts on Fireflyfans.net. The police really ARE on their way, you know. Hey, get away from Lizzie! No hostages! Damn it! YOU'RE BEING VERY ILLOGICAL, YOU DUMBASS!"

The End... of Lizzie.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 6:33 AM

CITIZEN


So your way is inherently better then, I can see it now:

AnthonyT hears a noise, pulls his two M16's from under the bed, slips on his ammo and grenade belts and flies down stairs.

Screaming "Asta la vista, baby" he takes out the intruders with round after round from his M16's in true action hero fashion. Sure he takes three rounds to the chest but he pulls off his shirt sleeves and binds the wounds, which as we all know from watching the last action hero prevents any lasting damage.

In the end all the intruders lie dead, leaving our hero to make a smart remark: "Bullets, a steal from Wal-Mart!"

AnthonyT is lauded as a hero for his valiant action and later wins the presidency.

Or we could step into reality for a moment:
AnthonyT who for some reason believes he is invincible with his 9mm Berretta confronts the intruders who promptly "bust a cap in his ass".

Obviously they didn't read the Fireflyfans.net thread where AnthonyT proved he was in fact the last action hero.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 6:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Ah, Citizen.

I never felt I was the Last Action Hero. Or any Action Hero.

I only believe that having a weapon and the will to use it gives me a chance in ten of getting out of a firefight alive. You see, I believe a criminal is inherently more prepared to kill than most lawful citizens.

On the other hand, I'll take my one chance in ten, thank you very much, rather than leave the entire matter in someone else's hands... someone else who is burglarizing my house.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 7:02 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
On the other hand, I'll take my one chance in ten, thank you very much, rather than leave the entire matter in someone else's hands... someone else who is burglarizing my house.


Ah AnthonyT

I never said you should kneel at their feet and beg them for mercy.

I said that one's first resort is not going in with both guns blazing, which is what you want to do...

...like some sort of action hero.

Also you have a better than one in ten chance of surviving a firefight if you don't actually have one. But if you want to be Rambo more power to you.



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Monday, May 8, 2006 7:41 AM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


I do not think that size and strength of an attacker should play into the force of your defense.

While I am not a martial artist, I have heard enough of them give the same tired old speech.

Namely, that your size and strength are unimportant. A 90 pound 5 foot weakling can take apart a 7 foot 300 pound individual with the right training.




I bolded the part of your post that to me seems the most significant; it's the part where you talk about "the right training."

Without the "right training," are size and strength unimportant? I talked about the people who killed a man by accident by being larger and pinning him down. Can you dispute that their size and strength had something to do with it? And you talk about a 90-pound weakling breaking your nose - you do realize that's it's not hard to break a nose don't you? A 4-year old could do it with a misplaced swing of an elbow. Does that justify a lethal response? Someone gets a lucky shot and you assume they are a competent fighter?

You're making a case for "better safe than sorry," but it's coming out as "judge, jury, executioner," as Citizen has pointed out.

I'll give you another example. A woman in the local news recently fired her gun through the door at someone trying to break into her house, killing him instantly. In this case, he was a burglar. But what if he had not been? I know at least two people who were so drunk that they tried getting in to houses that weren't theirs, and I myself have been drunk enough to try to get into a truck that looked like mine before. Is shoot to kill in that situation remotely reasonable? What are you defending, and from who?

Also, let's take the position that most home invaders probably don't want to run into the homeowner (I think that's reasonable). A couple kids break in, you have a gun; they try to run past you to get out, you see that as an attack, and you kill them. Are you in the right for killing an unarmed teen who was committing petty burglary?

Better safe than sorry is a response likely to cause more trouble than it is worth.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

I see nothing particularly wrong with either scenario apart from that, except pinching the guys throat, you should palm strike to the face to tip the head back and expose the neck, then shaolin punched to the throat.

Much more satisfying.


Wing Chun would have me combine both moves in one motion, as if favours directness and not wasting time, however, a throat strike in a moment of violence would probably bring about the same result: the inability for the guy to breathe.

Ahh, I'm playing Devil's advocate here, avoiding violence is most always the way to go.


Violence entails paperwork and court dates...Chrisisall

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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wing Chun would have me combine both moves in one motion, as if favours directness and not wasting time, however, a throat strike in a moment of violence would probably bring about the same result: the inability for the guy to breathe.

Ahh, I'm playing Devil's advocate here, avoiding violence is most always the way to go.


Assuming the punch is coming from their right arm, block with the left, lead in with your right for the face strike as you withdraw your left arm and lead in with the Shaolin punch with your left as you withdraw your right

One smooth sequence of movements that flow into each other.



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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I said that one's first resort is not going in with both guns blazing, which is what you want to do..."

I'm not sure where I said I had two guns, or that I would leap in like Yosemite Sam and blaze away, filling the air with lead. If you can find any of my statements that demonstrate a lack of caution or care, I'd appreciate it. What I HAVE said is that I'd rather have a gun than not have one, and that if I feel threatened, I'd like to be able to use lethal force in my defense without being brought up on charges. I am a very safe and sane gun user, thank you very much, and so please leave your stereotypes at home. If I was RAMBO, perhaps I'd feel better about taking chances with my life. I am Anthony Toledo, and not being an invulnerable Action Hero, I will take any actions necessary to defend my life, without a long meditative session on the relative strengths between my attacker and myself.

"A woman in the local news recently fired her gun through the door at someone trying to break into her house, killing him instantly."

The first rule of gun use is to be sure of your target. You NEVER fire blindly. But I fail to see what this has to do with my argument. I never advocated firing at a noise, a door, or a shadow. I advocated having a gun and using it against an ATTACKER. A door is not an attacker. It would have been correct to wait for the door to be bashed in and identify the target. Preferably while hiding behind the couch or peeking around a wall.

"Also you have a better than one in ten chance of surviving a firefight if you don't actually have one. But if you want to be Rambo more power to you."

I guess I could hope a gunman won't shoot me, won't hit me, or won't wound me seriously. But then, that's the case if I'm armed, too. The difference is, there's a chance I will stop him with MY gun, and that's one more option for survival. Because, you know, if he's shooting at me, and I have no weapon, I've got Nada.

"Without the "right training," are size and strength unimportant? I talked about the people who killed a man by accident by being larger and pinning him down. Can you dispute that their size and strength had something to do with it? And you talk about a 90-pound weakling breaking your nose - you do realize that's it's not hard to break a nose don't you? A 4-year old could do it with a misplaced swing of an elbow. Does that justify a lethal response? Someone gets a lucky shot and you assume they are a competent fighter?"

So I've got a violent attacker, a broken bone, and blood gushing from my face. Should I assume my attacker is NOT capable? NOT dangerous? How many more licks should I give the 90 pound weakling before I respond with any force necessary to stop him? Shall I enter a protracted boxing competition, carefully choosing blows unlikely to seriously wound my attacker? Or should I respond violently in kind, with all the strength and speed I can muster, to end the fight quickly before it turns even further against me?

I vote for option 2. Not because I'm Rambo. And not because I'm Rocky. Rather, because I'm NOT. I'm just a guy with a broken, bleeding face who is squinting through tears and pain as a '90 pound weakling' pounds his fists into my face. I'm hurting and scared and breathing hard because I don't get to the gym enough. My knees feel like jelly and my arms feel like lead. It's time for fight or flight... And I'm pretty sure your 90 pound weakling can outrun me.

I'm not speaking hypothetical here, folks. I am a 6'3" man who weighs 240 pounds who HAS BEEN ATTACKED by five foot tall 'weaklings' that look like they could get blown over by a stiff wind. In fact, I'd argue that the little guys who have attacked me were tougher than the big guys. Maybe they have something to prove? I've been bleeding, bruised, and broken. And I've gotten out of it ONLY by being hard, fast, and dirty.

So I suck as a boxer or martial artist. If you feel competant, by all means treat your attackers with kid gloves. But do not tell me that I have to, or even that I should. That places my life in less regard than the man who is attacking me. Yeah, a lucky punch can break a nose. A lucky punch can kill me, too. So yeah, I'll respond as violently as possible. If anyone dies during the commission of a crime, I say charge the criminal.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:38 AM

CHRISISALL


My style would have me intercept the punch, using a left palm to both block the punch and land the palm strike, while simultaniously punching the throat. With a standard stance, the palm would raise the head just in time for the throat punch to hit, being launched at the same time from about six inches farther back.
If I was standing southpaw, which I frequently do, this would have to change to a left block(parry) and a simultanious right palm to the face, followed by a seperate left throat punch, and simultanious right cover in case of a wild left swing...
Edit: hmmm, the second southpaw tac is pretty much what you said, I guess...

F**k it, I'll just kick 'em in the knee.

Martial tech-talk Chrisisall

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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:44 AM

CITIZEN


Ahh I see. Yeah I know those sequences. Basis for part of the Sum Chein, don't know if you have that in your style?



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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Ahh I see. Yeah I know those sequences. Basis for part of the Sum Chein, don't know if you have that in your style?


That which we call a lop sau by any other name, would still intercept as well.

Chrisisall, on the Gung-Fu Home Defense Forum

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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:54 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not sure where I said I had two guns, or that I would leap in like Yosemite Sam and blaze away, filling the air with lead. If you can find any of my statements that demonstrate a lack of caution or care, I'd appreciate it. What I HAVE said is that I'd rather have a gun than not have one, and that if I feel threatened, I'd like to be able to use lethal force in my defense without being brought up on charges. I am a very safe and sane gun user, thank you very much, and so please leave your stereotypes at home. If I was RAMBO, perhaps I'd feel better about taking chances with my life. I am Anthony Toledo, and not being an invulnerable Action Hero, I will take any actions necessary to defend my life, without a long meditative session on the relative strengths between my attacker and myself.


I'm saying that one should exhaust other options before attempting to confront a home intruder, you’re arguing with me and indeed going on like you believe your first action should be to run down stairs gun in hand and confront the intruder.

It's not my stereotypes at all, it's what you said. Jump in both feet to an armed conflict before seeing if you can escape without a confrontation if you wish, that's your decision. Very possibly your funeral as well.
Quote:

I guess I could hope a gunman won't shoot me, won't hit me, or won't wound me seriously. But then, that's the case if I'm armed, too. The difference is, there's a chance I will stop him with MY gun, and that's one more option for survival. Because, you know, if he's shooting at me, and I have no weapon, I've got Nada.

No one can shoot punch or recite Vogon poetry to you if your NOT THERE. But since you think escape (despite the fact you can still take your firearm with you if you wish) is 'stupid' but confronting multiple armed people single handedly is the smart thing to do this isn't likely.



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Monday, May 8, 2006 9:58 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I try to ignore PN. Arguing only encourages him.


That's my strategy too. It's also the same strategy I use for two or three other people on the board, since I know any discussion will be a waste of my time.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 10:03 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
That which we call a lop sau by any other name, would still intercept as well.


The Sam Chien is a form of the Tiger Crane style that contains many basic movements:
http://www.namyang1954.com/forms.html

Oh and if your interested the website for my class is here:
http://www.namyang.co.uk

There's a quick example of the Sam Chien on the video here:
http://www.namyang.co.uk/martial-arts/kung-fu/shaolin-kung-fu.php



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Monday, May 8, 2006 10:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Well, I'm not uncompromising there, Citizen. I won't seek a confrontation where one is unnecessary. To that degree, I can agree with you.


IF I am alone at home, and a weapon was available, I would consider these alternative options:

1) Grab my gun and, if there is an exit nearby, take the exit while armed.

2) Grab my gun and, if there is a lockable door in my room, lock the door and crouch behind a bed/piece of furniture. Then, if a phone is available, call the Cops while covering the door.

However, if I am NOT alone at home, neither of these options would be palatable. It is too difficult to ensure the safe evacuation of family members in other rooms AND be ready to make a defense. If there is anyone else's life at stake, my best bet is to find a bottleneck between the invader and my family (such as a hallway) and make a stand. Even if I am killed by the invader, it is unlikely he would continue to calmly ransack the house after engaging in a shootout. Result: Family lives.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 10:22 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

There's a quick example of the Sam Chien on the video here:
http://www.namyang.co.uk/martial-arts/kung-fu/shaolin-kung-fu.php


Very cool, thanks. Lots of similarities to my Wing Chun and Drunken and Praying Mantis styles. Silk and Iron, you know...
Isn't that Jackie's main thing, along with Snake?

We need a whole thread Chrisisall

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Monday, May 8, 2006 11:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



"No one can shoot punch or recite Vogon poetry to you if your NOT THERE. But since you think escape (despite the fact you can still take your firearm with you if you wish) is 'stupid' but confronting multiple armed people single handedly is the smart thing to do this isn't likely."


By the way... Multiple Armed People? Did this go from a home invasion to a Ninja Death Squad? I'll DEFINITELY need my firearm now. Or just Chrisisall and his Kung Fu.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 8, 2006 11:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I'll DEFINITELY need my firearm now. Or just Chrisisall and his Kung Fu.


Although I DO own a sword, nowadays I can only dodge bullets if they come real slow.

Run Luke, run Chrisisall

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Monday, May 8, 2006 11:37 PM

CITIZEN


If you really think that it's impossible to escape in anyway. I think if there are people in the house it's unlikely anyone will come up stairs unless they were specifically looking for you.

My point all along was avoiding a confrontation if possible and using minimal force in defence of one's own life if a confrontation is unavoidable. If they are armed then that may be lethal. If their one of your mates who got pissed up on Grandpa's old cough mixture and decided to break into your house to scare you for a laugh I doubt that's the case.
Quote:

By the way... Multiple Armed People? Did this go from a home invasion to a Ninja Death Squad? I'll DEFINITELY need my firearm now. Or just Chrisisall and his Kung Fu.

Yes. It's rare to find people breaking into a house alone, especially if it's occupied and the scenarios thrown at me have at least stated more than one assailant or hinted it. It's not coming from nowhere.

Also just because there's two or three of them doesn't suddenly mean your house has been invaded by 'Ninja Death Squads' Chechen Rebels or Mail Order Russian Brides .



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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Though I may come across as pacifist, I'm not a naive flower child. I make sure the doors and windows are locked at all times. Tho the house is in a good neighborhood, I always scope it out before entering, and check the doors and windows after I get in. (I've come home to a broken-into home more than once.)

The biggest potential problem is at night. As luck would have it, all the bedroom doors open up off the same hall. At night I put a motion sensor on either end of the hall facing out (which additionally detects fire). Each bedroom has another exit besides the door (which is also handy in case of fire). And there are phones literally at hand at all times.

If it were a more dangerous neighborhood, I would probably get a gun (short barrel shotgun, which I've been told is the best gun for home defense).

But as far as I'm concerned, the house can be stripped bare or burn to the ground, as long as no one is threatened or hurt.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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