US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !! by AURaptor

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hey Citizen,

Thanks for waking me up from my Piratenews meditations.

So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.

But, by a big and mighty stretch of the truth, you HAVE managed to show that the Minutemen are doing the job of Border Patrol... By watching for criminals, and reporting criminal activity to the authorities.

Citizen... I watch for criminals everywhere I go. I've even reported criminal activity to the police.

I had NO IDEA until you explained it to me that I was doing the job of law enforcement.

Does that make me a Vigilante?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
Im not gunna try and get into the middle of this but all I wanna say is, to those of you who don't support the Minutemen, do you really wan't a bunch of Spanish "immagrints" (and I use the term loosly) to come into the United States without appling for a visa, and then start taking jobs away from much more skilled American workers?

If you've been following this thread, then you'll know that the two are entirely separate issues. The debate isn't even over whether or not mass immigration is a good thing, it's over the Minuteman Project. You have used a fallacy known as a Complex Question, sometimes confused with a False Dilemna, in which you present two different arguments combined as one (FDil. is giving two choices when in fact there are three).

I do not support the Minutemen, and after reading Soupcatcher's posted web article I'm even more convinced that they are degenerates. But that doesn't mean that i'm in favor of loose borders either (look above, for the post in which Anthony and I agreed that there should be more spent on border patrol).

Quote:
I have nothing agianst ANYONE who legally came to the United States, and went through the HELL of buricratic red tape to become a legal US citizen, but why should they have to go through that and then loose a job to some border hopping illegal, who didn't do a DAMN thing to be here but hop the border and evade local law enforcement?? Does that seem right to you?

Some of these folks escape horrid conditions and regimes to make it to the US. What happens to someone fleeing, oh, let's say El Salvador, only to get here and be turned away because they don't have a "viable skill" other than being willing to work slave wages to stay here. That's why it's a tough issue for me, and a lot of others. Crack down on corporations that hire them and loosen up the immigration process, and you may see some of those numbers of illgals come down.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:48 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
SUCKERNOMICS...
blah... blah... blah...

Jesus Christ, PN, just give it the fuck up! No one cares what you think. No one believes what you say. Take your ignorant, racist, homophobic, anti-semitic bullshit elsewhere!

YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE!!!

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Spanish "immagrints""

To my knowledge, there is no rash of people from Spain trying to sneak into the country illegally.

Mexico History - Inhabited for more than 20,000 years, the area produced great civilizations in AD 100-900, incl. the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, and Aztec. The Aztec were conquered in 1521 by Spanish explorer H. Cortés, who established Mexico City on the site of the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlán. Francisco de Montejo conquered the remnants of Maya civilization in 1526, and Mexico became part of the viceroyalty of New Spain. In 1821 rebels negotiated a status quo independence from Spain, and in 1823 a new congress declared Mexico a republic.

So, just so you know, the Spanish landed, conquered the native people, and committed genocide.

Then the colony revolted against Spain, and gained independence.

Mexican history is a lot like American history. And just like the Mexicans aren't Spanish, Americans aren't British.

My Spanish ancestors did a similar thing to Cuba, where they wiped out the indiginous people. But Cuba gained independence from Spain (with some help) and now the people there are called Cubans, not Spanish.

The Spanish people live in a part of Europe called Spain. It's right on the west end. They are generally doing fine and don't try to illegally cross US borders.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I checked AP, Reuters, CNN , NYTimes, WashPost and others and no major news organizating is reporting or carrying this story. Every reference (politicians decrying ...) goes back to the Bulletin from Ontario, California.

I'm going to wait for some confirmation.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:02 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )

*******************************************

Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers

I remember reading this article at the time and being surprised that the only attribution for this claim comes from Gilchrist himself. If you read the entire article ( http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm ) there is no additional mention of the threat beyond the paragraphs you included. It's basically an advertisement for the Minutemen (poor journalism, in my book) and information about MS-13 (good journalism, in my book). To me the relevant sections are, "project officials say," and "Gilchrist ... said he had been told." Which is really the same thing.

In doing a search to see if I could dig up the basis for this claim I found a number of different pages. They all reference one particular article from the La Voz de Aztlan website ( http://www.aztlan.net/salvatruchas_vs_minutemen.htm ). For those of you who don't know, La Voz de Aztlan could charitably be described as "loony fringe freaks with no influence." As far as I can tell Ebner Anivel Rivera-Paz is a leader in MS-13 and he is in jail. But aside from the Voice of Aztlan, there is no evidence that he ordered a hit on the Minutemen.

Now I'm not saying that the leader of MS-13 didn't order a hit. I just can't find any actual quote from a source that doesn't make me want to shower after reading some of their stuff. So at this point I'd say it's apocryphal. It does fit in nicely with the paranoia that many supremacist groups exhibit and use as rationalization for their offensive stance, however. So, to me, the important thing is that there is no doubt in my mind that Gilchrist and other Minutemen think MS-13 is after them. And have tailored their actions accordingly.

ETA: I want to add that the US Border Patrol did issue a warning to their employees that they had received information from the FBI that MS-13 was targetting Border Patrol agents. But there was nothing in that warning about MS-13 targetting civilian groups.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I deal with PN by scrolling to the links, some of which are interesting.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:29 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.

Hey AnthonyT,

The short answer is there have been no members of the Gilchrist/Simcox version of the Minutemen arrested in Arizona. From the accounts I've read they were kept under observation by observers from the ACLU. The observers, combined with the media, outnumbered the Minutemen by a good margin. There was also very little activity along that particular stretch of the border while the Minutemen were there. So not much opportunity. Basically, the entire operation was a publicity stunt. And it was extremely successful in that respect. It garnered a lot of positive media attention and shone a spotlight on the topic of illegal immigration. About all that can be said, from their own comments when they thought the media were not around, is that they fervently wanted to engage in illegal activity up to and including murder. Which is not a crime. Psychotic, yes. Criminal, no.

Other border watch groups and individuals, however, have not been under as much scrutiny. And Cochise County has seen a number of incidents over the past many years. Some of these were alleged to have been committed by people on their own property (I'm not sure why, but I tend to think of those incidents as different from the ones that happened along roads). Here's a couple of links just to give a flavor:
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=33
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=9

There's also ambiguity on just how many of these incidents are occurring due to a number of factors as outlined in this article:
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/allheadlines/67826.php

So I feel confident saying that vigilante behavior is occurring along the border. And I also feel confident in the belief that members of the Simcox/Gilchrist Minutemen fantasize about engaging in all manner of unpleasantness. But members of that particular group have not, to my knowledge, been charged with any crime.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

So... bad people have done bad things along the border.

But no Minutemen yet.

All right. Well, let's be specific in our condemnations.

As for the minutemen having racist psycho asshats in their ranks...

Well, I've worked with people like that my whole life, on any particular job. Asshats seem to grow on trees. I'm not prepared to condemn the Minutemen yet.

But of course, they are one arrest away from that line.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts.

Well not at 3 O’clock in the morning when I've got work at 6, no, but how's this:

Quote:
Border Vigilante Arrested for Illegally Detaining Immigrant
The ACLU said it has learned through discussions with the Border Patrol that a Minuteman volunteer from Colorado was arrested after he was found with two migrants in his car.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/21241prs20051024.html
Maybe he was just observing them, from his rear-view mirror...

I found loads of reports, but many of them were just minutemen violently attacking protestors and the like, so I thought I'd keep it to Immigrants.

Quote:
Any of them Minutemen?

Apart from one of the co-founders of the group you mean?

But if you still won't take my word for it, lets ask the man Gilchrist himself:

Quote:
Gilchrist at a minuteman rally:
"I'm damned proud to be a vigilante."

Quote:
Citizen... I watch for criminals everywhere I go. I've even reported criminal activity to the police.

I had NO IDEA until you explained it to me that I was doing the job of law enforcement.

Does that make me a Vigilante?

You walk around your home town gun on your hip purposefully looking for crimes and intervening on occasion? Then yes, you'd be a vigilante.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border.

They're not in any way 'taking the law into their own hands', you moron. They're not 'arresting' anyone, they're not rounding folks up. All they're doing is informing Border Patrol where the illegals are. My mates grab their guns because its their constitutional right TO grab our guns,and the border is where the illegals , for the most part, are coming from. Seems pretty straight forward to me, somehow you have a problem w/ basic logic.

Quote:
Well golly gee there big 'A', would that be them folks that have decided to take that there law into there own hands by raisin' a posse?

Gee, what's this? On their own website they say strictly no contact with immigrants.

They can't be following their own rules huh.

Someone's going to get killed and the only people to blame will be them, running around with guns getting in the way of violent and desperate criminals and the proper authorities.

Again, ignorance raises it's ugly head..oh, wait..that's just citizen again. Now you're calling the Minutemen a POSSE ? Too gorram funny. Not all of them carry guns, but merely having one does more to KEEP trouble from happening than to cause it. It's called 'defense' , and that's what has been lacking along the border for many, many years.

To help confuse the issue, there's not just 1 Minutemen group. There's at least 3 different ones. Don't know which sites you've been grabbing your quotes from, nor does it seem to matter, as you ignore any facts equally. If I were to say the sun was up, you'd say it was down, simply to be contrarian. I get that now. Wasted far too much time on your irrelevent post.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:21 AM

Oh AU, bringing nothing to the discussion except personal insults and bullshit as usual. It's no surprise to me you support the Minutemen group wholeheartedly; you've probably heard they had links to racist hate groups

.

Now I'd bother refuting the baseless claims you've just made, but I don't need to, the one's you made aimed at me I've already proven to be false countless times (where conversely you've merely proven them true about you, funny that

) and the ones regarding Minutemen I've refuted several times on this thread. I realise you have problems with reading so get back to me when your care worker has finished reading it too you, okay

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 1:48 AM

ARABIKUM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not all of them carry guns, but merely having one does more to KEEP trouble from happening than to cause it. .

I seriously doubt, that having a gun helps avoiding trouble. I think having a gun, more often causes trouble, whatever the intention was...

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
My mates grab their guns because its their constitutional right TO grab our guns,and the border is where the illegals , for the most part, are coming from.

M.Moore: "I left the Heston estate atop Beverly Hills and walked back into the real world. To an America living and breathing in fear. Where gun sales are now at an all record high. And where, in the end, it all comes back to 'Bowling for Columbine'".

A.

Michael Moore: Now wait a minute... The Constitution says you've got the right to bear arms. What do you think 'arms' means?

John Nichols: Well it's not like these...
[waves his arms]

John Nichols: It means we ought to have handguns if we want to.

Michael Moore: What about nuclear weapons? Should you be able to have weapons-grade plutonium?

John Nichols: [pauses] ... Well I think that oughta be restricted.

_____________________________________________

John Nichols: There's a lot of wackos out there.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:44 AM

AMITON

Now *this* is a posse...and they happen to be tied to law enforcement as well...

Just out of curisoity, where does the debate fall with this? Or am I out of line and introducing things irrelevant to the discussion? (see the False Dilema point above).

Amiton.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195083,00.html

Arizona Sheriff Uses Anti-Smuggling Law to Target Illegal Immigrants
Thursday, May 11, 2006

GILA BEND, Ariz. — One Arizona county sheriff has created a 250-strong posse to hunt down those who cross the border illegally.

“It’s a felony; I am enforcing a new law,” Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio told FOX News. “I’m the elected sheriff and I’m going to do what I feel is right regardless of the controversy.”

Arpaio, the sheriff for Arizona's most populous county, is taking advantage of a new state law that allows charging undocumented immigrants with conspiracy to smuggle themselves into the United States. The anti-human-smuggling statute that took effect in Arizona in August and gave prosecutors a tool to go after "coyotes," or smugglers, who traffic in undocumented immigrants.

The Maricopa County Attorney's Office later issued an opinion saying undocumented immigrants suspected of paying coyotes could be prosecuted as conspirators. But Arpaio's actions are already causing some controversy.

On Wednesday night, Arpaio and his posse launched patrols in desert areas and major roadways southwest of Phoenix in search of illegal immigrants to arrest. FOX News' William LaJeunesse rode along on some of the patrols.

The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.

The posse was patrolling the area here for illegal immigrants who pay smugglers to cross through Arizona, the busiest illegal entry point along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border. There was at least one arrest Wednesday night.

Those who are captured by the posse may end up in jail, charged under the state law that allowed local law enforcement agencies to charge suspected smugglers in Arizona — it was already a federal crime.

It has been used against more than 100 illegal immigrants in Maricopa County this year. The law was meant to crack down on smugglers, but under a disputed interpretation, County Attorney Andrew Thomas argues the law also can be applied to the smuggled immigrants themselves.

Thomas maintains illegal immigrants who pay smugglers to enter the United States are committing conspiracy to smuggle and can therefore be prosecuted under the state law. It's punishable by up to two years in jail.

"It's going to be a help to the county," posse member D.J. Pigott said. "Illegal immigrants are getting everything that, in my estimation, they should not get. We're being overrun by these people. If the federal government is not going to do it, the sheriff is going to do it."

It remains to be seen whether a judge will uphold the smuggling law as applicable to illegal immigrants. Lawyers for some arrested illegal immigrants have filed motions to have the charges dismissed.

The Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law in Los Angeles is challenging Thomas's interpretation.

"We agree with Andrew Thomas that federal immigration policy is a mess," said Peter Schey, director of the human rights group. "But we part company when it comes to what should be done about that. We don't believe anyone has the right to break the law because they're frustrated with federal policy."

Even the authors of the state smuggling law say it was meant to crack down on violent immigrant smugglers — not the people they're transporting.

"I never intended that immigrants would be arrested," said Rep. Jonathan Paton, a Republican who was one of three legislators to write the smuggling law.

Other police agencies say that arresting illegal immigrants under the law would overwhelm them financially.

"I can't afford to do what Sheriff Arpaio is doing," said Sheriff Tony Estrada of Santa Cruz County, one of four Arizona border counties. "He can do a lot of crazy things with his resources. We can't. We're strapped."

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Or am I out of line and introducing things irrelevant to the discussion? (see the False Dilema point above).

I'm not sure if this was taking a shot at me personally or what. I called that guy out for saying there was only one choice, support the Minutemen or want illegals in the country. But this...

Quote:

The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.

...makes most of my point for me, and is very relevant to the discussion. I underlined the parts I felt are appropriate to what points I was making vis-a-vis the Minutemen. I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:35 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.

I agree. But the Minutemen are hardly acting in the same capacity as Border Patrol or even the so-called Posse in Arizona. They are mostly just sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars, a cell phone, some bottled water, and a first aid kit. They call in those they spot and help any that need help.

Its not reported...but thats their business model.

Its not a whole lot different then a neighborhood watch. I'd go myself but its really hot down there in the summer. But my vacations coming up in July and if I spot any illegals during my roadtrip to visit family in the Great State of West By-God Virginia...I'll call them in. I'm not trained...but I can manage a phone call as good as any deputy or border agent.

H

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:38 AM

AMITON

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:

I'm not sure if this was taking a shot at me personally or what. I called that guy out for saying there was only one choice, support the Minutemen or want illegals in the country. But this...

Quote:

The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.

...makes most of my point for me, and is very relevant to the discussion. I underlined the parts I felt are appropriate to what points I was making vis-a-vis the Minutemen. I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, 7%. I wasn't taking a shot at anybody. I asked that as a legitimate question. I'm interested in what people have to say and since this wasn't directly tied to the Minutemen group, I asked. The intent was a gesture of civility, not my poor attempt at being an ass.

The article seemed to fit in well with the counterpoint of the discussion - on both sides - but from a slightly different perspective. They're still civilian volunteers, but they're trained and enabled by a formal law organization.

At any rate, it was supposed to be a submission to contribute to the debate that was in the mainstream press. It illustrates some of the issues on both sides of the debate, so I had hoped to put it out here without being partial to one side or the other right now.

Amiton.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:46 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"a Minuteman volunteer from Colorado was arrested after he was found with two migrants in his car. According to the Border Patrol, the volunteer came across the migrants after they flagged him down for food and water while he was driving in Hidalgo County."

"We don't yet have complete information on the arrest," he said. "What we do know is that this individual was taken into custody, but that the charges were eventually dropped."

Hmm... Looks like a Minuteman violated his creed. He was driving around, was flagged down by immigrants who wanted food and water, pulled over, took them in, was arrested, and the charges were dropped.

Not the stinging condemnation I was looking for. But now I've been trapped. I said I'd change my position if Minutemen were arrested for their illegal actions, and this SOB pulled over to help people who flagged him down. Never mind the charges were dropped. He was arrested, and I was very clear in my earlier statement.

So, true to my word.

I totally condemn the Minutemen for their illegal actions.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
The intent was a gesture of civility, not my poor attempt at being an ass.

My sincere apologies. For some reason this thread in general has my blood pressure up (not to mention the fact that I'm bored to death because I've had no students for two days - testing - so all I've done is sit on the internet).

Quote:
At any rate, it was supposed to be a submission to contribute to the debate that was in the mainstream press. It illustrates some of the issues on both sides of the debate, so I had hoped to put it out here without being partial to one side or the other right now.

And it was an excellent submission, especially for me, since I feel it proved my point

. Keep up the submissions like that!

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:04 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I seriously doubt, that having a gun helps avoiding trouble. I think having a gun, more often causes trouble, whatever the intention was..."

Well, you're not going to win any points with me for condemning gun ownership or the carrying of firearms.

Quoting Michael Moore isn't particularly helpful either. Some day you'll have to look up his investigative journalism technique. You know, such as chopping up and re-editing Charlton Heston's speeches to make it appear he is saying things at times and places he did not. The man is a propagandist. His sole redeeming quality is that his propaganda is opposed to administration propaganda, and so it creates a valuable 'balance of lies and half-truths' that let me know where the real truth is. (In the middle.)

I'm not ever going to convince someone who doesn't like firearms that firearms are a good thing. They will never believe that they are useful for anything but causing trouble and exacerbating crime.

A lot of people won't ever believe in the philosophy of remaining armed. Not until they or someone they love is being raped or murdered. In those moments of violence and pain, the victim would earnestly wish for one chance in ten to stop that pain and violation.

But their pain and violation must be accepted. Their rights to defend themselves must be refused. We know better. Disarming the lawful and condemning the use of firearms is the best way to safeguard the majority.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 12, 2006 1:24 PM

I maybe a merchant mariner away from the problems in the U.S., but can anyone again answer that question posted.."what is the difference between neighborhood watch and the minuteman society"? If all each does is watch their neighborhoods what is the difference? desert or neighborhood, community, country. Have pitty for the illegal aliens, anyone ask the march organizers.. why not march on Mexico City.. after Mexico has a 25 billion dollar trade surplus, they are an oil producing country? If the golden rule of Mexico is he who owns the gold makes the rules.. well march in Mexico. Someone made a comment on the carrying of guns by the minutemen, why not? if you are watching and calling the border patrol for every sign of movement, you are a target. Tell you what.. move to a drug neighborhood, stand out side with a camera, video camera, cell phone and call the police everytime a transaction takes place.. can someone tell me what will happen.. yes the drug thugs will get you. It's the same here, approached by machetes, assault rifles and other weapsons.. I know, yeah.. that law, mentions several back.. make it illegal for anyone not law enforcement to be on the border.. yeah that sounds good.. huh.. no wait. that was tried in Berlin. remember the wall? yes a wall was built.. but manned by troops with machine guns, that shot first and asked questions later.. so which do you want, you have 11 million illegal undocumented people already here, and more attempting to come any way possible. what are you for, wall or no wall, open borders or no borders. I am not worried about jobs lost, many already have to NAFTA, CAFTA and out sourcing, believe me, I live in the Philippines with my wife, I see the expansion of U.S. businesses for cheap labor. Do you honestly think giving U.S. citizenship away so easily going to make a difference? Are these jobs "Americans" do not want are going to be filled or continue to be filled with newly made citizens? I don't think we are all stupid.. people are in these jobs, not by choice, you are in them because you shirk the law! pay taxes, yeah how, with an invalid social security number, forged license, if you buy groceries or other items, paying a sales tax does not qualify you for citizenship. We have to make tough choices, ellis island does not exsist anymore neither is the social expansion climate. Want to help their families fine.. but demonstrate against their government, change their country's economic and political atmosphere, show efforts on their part don't come here and try to make changes and force changes here. Go back and make those demands on Fox. I agree with the immigration changes.. place the national guard on the border, add the reserves too. I see Mexico threatening to take this before the World Court and the U.N. they must have nothing more on their minds.. then the welfare of their own people. I do not know anything about the minutemen other than what is shown on tv, but what I see are people taking action and that action may endanger themselves. I appreciate that at least someone is doing something about it. I guess that is wrong.. what is right.. lets see,, hire an undocumented alien, give him a job with below legal pay standards, higher hours of work, and I bet no overtime and no medial benefits.. prove me wrong anyone.. show me a business that follows the law with the hiring of illegals please. show me following the labor laws?

Merchantmarine 1

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Friday, May 12, 2006 4:15 PM

If your neighbourhood watch schemes are tooled up citizen militias that travel the streets at night looking for crime, but obviously only ring the police and watch from a safe distance, obviously; nothing, they're vigilantes to.

Some how I doubt that's what your neighbourhood watch schemes are.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 7:51 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Merchantmarine1,

This is in regards to the neighborhood watch comparison. To me, a better question is how are the Minutemen different from the Klan Border Watch that David Duke and others organized in the late seventies? Both are groups of people who are motivated more by a fear of "invasion" by hordes of brown people. Both are groups that were primarily interested in media exposure and whose leaders were hoping to use that exposure to jump start a political career. Both are groups whose members espouse idealogy that most sane Americans recognize as ignorant, hateful, and primarily motivated by fear. Suporters of the Minutemen try to gloss over the very disturbing beliefs of many of the members. Maybe in an effort to make their racial hate more mainstream. I'm not sure. What I am sure about is you can dress up a pig all you want but at the end of the day you still have a pig.

The question is, should we let our immigration debate be driven by racism? Or should we be more rational about the whole thing. Should we go after the people on the bottom? Or go after the corporations who have no interest in developing a more effective immigration policy.

Say our biggest problem right now is that we need to cross a raging river. One very successful method would be to find the largest tree we could and fell it to make a bridge. The Minuteman solution is to pick a blade of grass, wave it around for all to see and yell at the top of their lungs, "Look at me! Look at me! I help. I help."

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Friday, May 12, 2006 9:28 PM

To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's. This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's.

When they first started that was exactly what they were. If they still are I don't know, I don't know enough about them. I suppose anyone who's actions you agree with can't possibly be Vigilante's.

Quote:
This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..

You seem to have missed off the paragraphs where any of this proves that the Minutemen aren't vigilantes.

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:36 AM

Alot of the word Vigilante? Can anyone show me, I watch the cable news networks, ALL OF THEM, I have not seen a hanging, summary execution, accusation of murder? Did or has anyone seen such. Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante? doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto. Like I said.. my views are from watching the independant news programs, all I care about in my opinion is someone is taking their time without pay putting their lives on the line to stand on the border with bino's and a cell phone and call the authorities when aliens attempt to cross. I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante?

Well you sure as hell don't.

Quote:
doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto.

History lesson: The meaning of vigilante has bugger all to do with San Francisco. (Fact) it comes originally from the Latin 'Vigil'. (Fact) the modern dictionary definition is along the lines of someone who takes the law into their own hands without government sanction.

So you see I don't need to drag up good ol' San Francisco lynchings, because although the groups that did that were vigilante groups a vigilante group doesn't have to do that in order to be a vigilante group.

Oh and nothing you said even goes an eigth of the way to refuting the vigilante accusation.

Quote:
I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.

As I said before:
You seem to have missed off the paragraphs that show how any of this proves the Minutemen are not vigilantes.

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:43 AM

Citizen,

You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term. I do not need to submit any proof of any illegal actions or vigilante deemed retaliation. This is where you are wrong, I did not miss any paragraphs, after all, I watch the news and special field reports, I don't have to miss anything, I see their efforts and appreciate what each memeber is doing regardless if you do not. You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry. I have not even seen a reply about the recent discovery of personal information on border agents, their families and address for targets of violence. What I see is someone whom for what ever reason has dislike or hatred for a group or any group that is trying to at least make some effort for their communities or states. You point out racial agenda's that have nothing to do with standing on the border with a cell phone and binoculars. I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem. Did you see the rallies or did you participate in them I am trying to figure out which. You don't support neighborhood watch by criticizing their attempts or actions. If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree. I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante? My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer. You do not provide answers about the labor laws and illegal/undocumented workers in the country already. So in closing.. while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.

Merchantmarine 1

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Citizen,

You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term.

Which is how you learn the definition of something - by quoting a dictionary term. Just because someone isn't carrying a noose or a lead pipe and beating justice into someone doesn't mean they aren't vigilantes. It just means they don't fit into your understanding of what a vigilante is. "Death Wish" is vigilantism taken to the extreme.

Quote:
I do not need to submit any proof

You always need to submit proof in any argument if the facts are in dispute. You can say Juputer is made out of cheddar cheese, but it doesn't make it true until you can prove it.

Quote:
You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry.

He may not have, but you haven't countered my argument for it, which you can read further back in this thread. If the Minuteman civilians weren't there, they wouldn't be threatened. The fact that they are putting themselves in harm's way without any specialized training and and acting in a manner that is outside legitimate governmental authority makes them vigilantes, and they bring it on themselves.

Quote:
What I see is someone whom for what ever reason has dislike or hatred for a group or any group that is trying to at least make some effort for their communities or states.

If they want to make an effort, they will petition their elected government agents for enacting a new solution; OR, they will join the police, border patrol, or military and help out that way. Until they do, they are acting outside the law and potentially hampering the work by legitimate border agents.

Quote:
You point out racial agenda's that have nothing to do with standing on the border with a cell phone and binoculars.

Those racial agendas have everything to do with it. How would you feel if a Nazi, or a Klansman, or a radical Islamist stood up and said that they represented America, and you? Would you let that stand? If an orgaization that is supposedly the 'face of America standing up for itself' is composed of hate criminals, then they DO need to get out of the way and crawl back under whatever rock they slithered from beneath.

Quote:
I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem.

As I pointed out in a previous post, you're making huge fallacies here. "Idiots on the border or let everyone in" are not our only choices. Spending more money on trained personnel, using Guardsmen, etc. are all viable options. Not supporting the Minutemen DOES NOT EQUAL supporting millions of illegal immigrants.

Quote:
You don't support neighborhood watch by criticizing their attempts or actions.

See an earlier thread by me in which I said just that. I'll argue with you on that issue; I don't like Neighborhood Watch, either.

Quote:
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.

Is that what it would take? Executiion? Or if it came to torture, would you stop there? Or what if the Minutemen interfered with a joint operation by the American or Mexican governments? Where does it stop? Or is it no harm no foul as long as no one dies?

Quote:
I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante?

Not according to the First Amendment. You do understand the right of Americans to peacably assemble, don't you?

Quote:
My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer. ... while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.

Way to personally attack Citizen. But if you want to argue, "I'm your Huckleberry," seeing as how it only took me about 5 seconds to dismantle your entire argument.

7%

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term.

What's that sound? It's a rushing kind of whooshing sound. Oh it's stopped now, after a kind of booming banging sound. I guess it must be your credibility, dropping.

No, I understand the term vigilante, I just don't live in lala land (i.e. your head) where your meaning is correct and the meaning agreed upon by the rest of the Human race is not.

Quote:
This is where you are wrong, I did not miss any paragraphs, after all, I watch the news and special field reports, I don't have to miss anything, I see their efforts and appreciate what each memeber is doing regardless if you do not.

Right. You watch the news well done. I watch the news; I read it too, so I guess I've got one up on you, huh.

Quote:
You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry.

I don't remember you bringing it up...

I just checked: you didn't. But anyway you want me to address the issues you haven't brought up when you can't address the ones I have, okay, I have no problem being the bigger man:
If they weren't taking the law in to their own hands they wouldn’t be in the firing line.

So you going to address the issue of Minutemen violently attacking peaceful demonstrators, I mean you watch all the news, you must have heard about it?

Quote:
I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem. Did you see the rallies or did you participate in them I am trying to figure out which.

I live in Britain, we have duly appointed and trained law enforcement agencies over here. If you don't you really need to look at your government before anywhere else, but then I thought the US did have law enforcement agencies. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe the US isn't a civilised nation.

Now did you see the rallies or did you participate in them or did someone tell you about them, I think I've worked out which.

Quote:
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.

Well at least we know where you stand. Just to the right of the KKK it would seem.

Quote:
I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante?

As I said I don't subscribe to your personal definition. Taking a stab in the dark, a vigilante is someone who you don't like, right? Anyway since they weren't taking the law into their own hands (marching isn't law enforcement

) no, whatever else they are, they’re not vigilantes. But then I'm using the accepted definition of vigilante, I understand you don't believe it unless you decide its right.

Quote:
My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer.

Maybe I could put the world to rights while serving in the merchant navy thousands of miles away, while sitting in front of someone elses computer. That would make the two of us equal at least, eh.

Quote:
You do not provide answers about the labor laws and illegal/undocumented workers in the country already.

Neither have you. Oh was murdering illegal immigrants your suggestion? Sorry I thought you were joking didn't think someone would seriously make such an openly fascist statement like that.

Quote:
So in closing.. while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.

Well if the jack boot fits...

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:54 AM

7 percent, you hate neighborhood watch, great hope your little neighborhood is the safest around. You say I offer no solutions, in fact I have, I support any means necessary to enforce the laws of my country. If using the National Guard to patrol the border, transport exsisting illegals captured in other states fine. You hate the minutemen movement YOUR OPINION. Oh.. I did support family and friends movements even while abroad.. funding for petitions and marches.. I support investigations into business practices of hiring undocumented aliens, and the support severing business ties with any business that supports the marches. Like I said, no answers WHY NOT MARCH IN MEXICO CITY FOR CHANGES IN THEIR COUNTRIES SOCIAL PROGRAMS. For citizen, coming from Britain, one of the toughest immigration regulators of Europe, you spout against U.S. policies, if 12 million undocumented entered the U.K. illegally I do not think you would be so supportive. I do have friends in U.K., what is it, for citizenship? 1 year stay in the U.K. and you are not eligible for any medical or employment? You are basically on your own without any government support or assistance. British citizenship is what EARNED! Murdering Millions of immigrants? where did that come from.. You need to come to America or get educated on the subject matter before entering this conversation. The problem originates in Mexico not in the U.S., and again you spout what nazi themes and you know nothing of the problem on our border. Yes we have a police force and border patrols and clearly that is not enough. I see nothing wrong with citizens volunteering their time to stand a watch and report crimes. If you do then I suggest March for illegals and hire them for your business.. oh.. you spout first amendment rights? you can if you can prove 100 percent if all the marchers were citizens of the U.S. when already even the organizers have said in News interviews majority was undocumented immigrants.. and THEY HAVE ALREADY STATED ON NUMEROUS PROGRAMS THE TERM ILLEGAL ALIENS IS RACIST, BUT PROPER TERM IMMIGRANT just. These are all excuses for those who want everything and not earn it. Its easy to march, sneak across borders and hide. You want action wait until the National Guard starts patrols, wait until the marchers do not get the ammnesty they want. Their efforst are not going to motivate our government. In England ask this, would your government and the people of England tolerate such social disrespect as shown by the marchers (waiving their countries flags)? I hope you are honest. And finally to both 7 percent and Citizen, you have not dismantled any of my arguments, you dislike the actions of groups making a stand.. but you also say nothing about people marching voicing and waiving their own countries flags and still demand rights and citizenship.. ANSWER THIS.. WHAT IS WRONG IS STANDING IN LINE, FILING THE PAPERS AND FOLLOWING THE LAW? AND this I truly do not understand? in regards to the violence encountered? what was said.. stay out of the firing line? ARE THE BOTH OF YOU SAYING THAT THE ILLEGALS ENTERING MY COUNTRY ARE DOING SO UNDER FORCE OF ARMS? I WONDER IF THAT WOULD BE ALLOWED IN THE U.K. I WONDER IF YOUR GOVERNMENT WOULD ALLOW THE THREATS BY ILLEGAL UNDOCUMENTED PERSONS TOWARDS YOUR CITIZENS? ANSWER THAT? OH. WHAT ARE YOU DOING AND WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTIONS? COMING FROM THE U.K.?

I DID LIKE THE JACK BOOT THEME.. WAS THAT AT YOUR ADORABLE PRINCES PARTY? AND HIS DELIGHTFUL NAZI UNIFORM?

JUST TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ABOUT THIS WIDELY USED TERM VIGILANTE.. IN THE U.S. CITIZENS can make CITIZEN ARRESTS, each state has a statue allowing their citizens to act within reason to stop a crime. how ever deadly force is not justified in this case since the citizen is not in a law enforcment capacity. However, in the states affected by the influx of illegal aliens, California has strict gun control laws, carrying in public is against the law, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico have laws allowing the carrying of firearms but the citizens arrest statute is the same. Hate them or support their border efforts, like I said .. COME UP WITH A PLAN.. Oh.. one more for the U.K. I would spend a little more time on your countries law enforcment and intelligence than ours.. WE GOT INTO IRAQ BECAUSE OF YOUR YELLOW CAKE INTEL..

Merchantmarine1

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:54 AM

~~PirateMarine~~, ~~MerchantNews~~(what can I say you sound just like him)MerchantMarine:
So no answers on the Minutemen are vigilantes issue then, no? Let me check. No, no answer, I guess you agree, why else would you go attacking the British royal family when we're talking about the Minutemen?

Hokay, lets take this one bit of ignorant bullshit at a time shall we:

Quote:
Originally posted the MerchantMarine:
For citizen, coming from Britain, one of the toughest immigration regulators of Europe, you spout against U.S. policies, if 12 million undocumented entered the U.K. illegally I do not think you would be so supportive.

Actually we don't have the toughest immigration regulations in Europe, Immigrants by pass just about every other European nation for just that reason. Where did you hear that? Oh no wait a minute, you made it up, that's right

Quote:
I do have friends in U.K., what is it, for citizenship?

I have friends on Mars, no Europa, no the moon...

Quote:
1 year stay in the U.K. and you are not eligible for any medical or employment? You are basically on your own without any government support or assistance.

Repeat after me: Just because you made it up doesn't make it so.

Quote:
Murdering Millions of immigrants? where did that come from.. You need to come to America or get educated on the subject matter before entering this conversation.

No I didn't say anything about murdering illegals. I believe that was you.

Yep I checked it was you, right here:

Quote:
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.

Now, get educated on the subject, well since the only person who has said things that are blatantly wrong here is you, I'd have to agree, YOU do need to educate yourself on the subject before joining in on the conversation

Quote:
The problem originates in Mexico not in the U.S., and again you spout what nazi themes and you know nothing of the problem on our border.

No, again the person who brought up the Nazi's was actually you

Quote:
Yes we have a police force and border patrols and clearly that is not enough.

So, like I said you take that up with the government, you make them do something about it. Or you start a vigilante group. So are you getting around to explaining how the Minutemen aren't vigilantes, you know ever. It's been four posts now and you still haven't managed it.

Quote:
If you do then I suggest March for illegals and hire them for your business.. oh.. you spout first amendment rights? you can if you can prove 100 percent if all the marchers were citizens of the U.S. when already even the organizers have said in News interviews majority was undocumented immigrants.. and THEY HAVE ALREADY STATED ON NUMEROUS PROGRAMS THE TERM ILLEGAL ALIENS IS RACIST, BUT PROPER TERM IMMIGRANT just.

I didn't mention the first amendment. As for the rest I speak English, could you please try and do the same?

Oh and they’re called paragraphs, for god sake use them.

Quote:
These are all excuses for those who want everything and not earn it.

Seems kind of reminiscent of things said by the KKK and (Might as well say it if your going to keep accusing me of it) Nazis. Just saying.

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In England ask this, would your government and the people of England tolerate such social disrespect as shown by the marchers (waiving their countries flags)? I hope you are honest.

Yes they would, and do on a daily basis. If you knew anything about the UK you'd probably know that.

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WHAT IS WRONG IS STANDING IN LINE, FILING THE PAPERS AND FOLLOWING THE LAW?

Nothing at all, it's just a pity the minutemen can't do this, you know lobby the government, fill out the correct forms. I guess they'd rather play soldiers.

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AND this I truly do not understand? in regards to the violence encountered? what was said.. stay out of the firing line? ARE THE BOTH OF YOU SAYING THAT THE ILLEGALS ENTERING MY COUNTRY ARE DOING SO UNDER FORCE OF ARMS?

Erm, no. We're saying their putting themselves in harms way by taking the law into their own hands. If I walked up to a drug dealer and told him I was going to put an end to his wicked wicked ways, personally I wouldn't be surprised if he attacked me. Maybe you and your mates lack that sort of mental reasoning?

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I WONDER IF YOUR GOVERNMENT WOULD ALLOW THE THREATS BY ILLEGAL UNDOCUMENTED PERSONS TOWARDS YOUR CITIZENS? ANSWER THAT?

Well we let the police and immigration control deal with it. What do you do, oh that's right you form vigilante groups then wonder why people get hurt.

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OH. WHAT ARE YOU DOING AND WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTIONS? COMING FROM THE U.K.?

Well I've answered this half a dozen times already. What are your ideas, coming from the middle of the Pacific?

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I DID LIKE THE JACK BOOT THEME.. WAS THAT AT YOUR ADORABLE PRINCES PARTY? AND HIS DELIGHTFUL NAZI UNIFORM?

I'm trying to think how this has any relevance, but, no no I can't.

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JUST TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ABOUT THIS WIDELY USED TERM VIGILANTE.. IN THE U.S. CITIZENS can make CITIZEN ARRESTS, each state has a statue allowing their citizens to act within reason to stop a crime.

You have a funny concept of setting the record straight.

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Oh.. one more for the U.K. I would spend a little more time on your countries law enforcment and intelligence than ours.. WE GOT INTO IRAQ BECAUSE OF YOUR YELLOW CAKE INTEL..

My god you just can't stop, it's like someone installed a bullshit chip in your brain it is truly amazing. You got into Iraq because YOUR president ordered YOUR troops into Iraq. The intelligence from MI6 had little if anything to do with it, especially since the reports were 'sexed up' in the final dossiers, something that had nothing to do with MI6. Perhaps you should be asking why the US depends on the UK's intelligence network so much.

What the fuck that's got to do with either UK law enforcement or the Minutemen I have really no idea.

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And finally to both 7 percent and Citizen, you have not dismantled any of my arguments

Well that's as maybe, but it's kind of hard to dismantle something that isn't there, dong ma bei xing dan gao?

So (and I'm getting really tired of saying this) you seem to of missed off the paragraphs that explain how anything you've just posted proves the Minutemen aren't vigilantes.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:33 AM

Citizen,

you are incredible? you can put all that together. WOW, coming from the U.K. you know our border problems and solutions? Oh, yes I forgot, you are the expert, Lets not forget the rest of the world watched how your government handled Ireland and anyone SUSPECTED of being in membership of the IRA or supporting the IRA. Your country sent troops tanks and even your special forces.. How many innocent lives lost and how many inprisoned? and you have the guts to call the minuteman border watch Nazis or even resemble them to KKK? I see your tiny world, leave the problems to the authorities and government. Not here pal. we have 12 Million undocumented. how many in the U.K.? you never answered. I know from collegues whom are citizens of France, Germany and from Ireland, they have no nice choice words for the U.K. and I wonder why? Stay to the point if you understand English.. the topic is "US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't" get it? Nothing about vigilantes? and no MORON there was no mention of murdering millions? you made the accusation that Citizens of the U.S. sitting on our border excercising their rights as citizens doing their civic duty, which you CLEARLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. I said.. "IF THEY EXECUTED ANYONE I WOULD AGREE.." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.. OVER HERE A VIGILANTE IN OUR HISTORY.. NOT U.K. THAT WAS DISMANTLED IN 1787 AFTER YOUR DEFEAT... VIGILANTES HERE IN U.S. HAVE BEEN VIOLENT.. AND MURDEROUS.. THAT I DISAGREE WITH.. YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY EVIDENCE OF VIOLENT ATTACKS ON OUR BORDERS STEMMING FROM THE MINUTEMEN GROUPS. AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH YOU MUST WATCH SOMETHING OTHER THAN BBC.. OR TRY TOO NO NEWS PROGRAM EITHER CABLE OR FREE TV HERE IN AMERICA HAS EVER RAISED ANY ISSUES AGAINST THE MINUTEMEN ON THE BORDER. INFACT JUST THE OPPOSITE. THERE IS OUTRAGE OVER THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION OF THEIR LOCATIONS.. SO GET THE HINT. Like I said.. coming from a country with an excellent track record in IRELAND you are the expert.

Merchantmarine1

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 2:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Citizen,

you are incredible? you can put all that together. WOW, coming from the U.K. you know our border problems and solutions? Oh, yes I forgot, you are the expert, Lets not forget the rest of the world watched how your government handled Ireland and anyone SUSPECTED of being in membership of the IRA or supporting the IRA. Your country sent troops tanks and even your special forces.. How many innocent lives lost and how many inprisoned? and you have the guts to call the minuteman border watch Nazis or even resemble them to KKK? I see your tiny world, leave the problems to the authorities and government. Not here pal. we have 12 Million undocumented. how many in the U.K.? you never answered. I know from collegues whom are citizens of France, Germany and from Ireland, they have no nice choice words for the U.K. and I wonder why? Stay to the point if you understand English.. the topic is "US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't" get it? Nothing about vigilantes? and no MORON there was no mention of murdering millions? you made the accusation that Citizens of the U.S. sitting on our border excercising their rights as citizens doing their civic duty, which you CLEARLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. I said.. "IF THEY EXECUTED ANYONE I WOULD AGREE.." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.. OVER HERE A VIGILANTE IN OUR HISTORY.. NOT U.K. THAT WAS DISMANTLED IN 1787 AFTER YOUR DEFEAT... VIGILANTES HERE IN U.S. HAVE BEEN VIOLENT.. AND MURDEROUS.. THAT I DISAGREE WITH.. YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY EVIDENCE OF VIOLENT ATTACKS ON OUR BORDERS STEMMING FROM THE MINUTEMEN GROUPS. AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH YOU MUST WATCH SOMETHING OTHER THAN BBC.. OR TRY TOO NO NEWS PROGRAM EITHER CABLE OR FREE TV HERE IN AMERICA HAS EVER RAISED ANY ISSUES AGAINST THE MINUTEMEN ON THE BORDER. INFACT JUST THE OPPOSITE. THERE IS OUTRAGE OVER THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION OF THEIR LOCATIONS.. SO GET THE HINT. Like I said.. coming from a country with an excellent track record in IRELAND you are the expert.

Merchantmarine1

Bored now. Your idiocy, ignorance and bigotry were funny at first, and then it was tedious, now it's just boring. There's a time and a place for you and it is called Deliverance.

So how about you stop talking about things you know nothing about (in other words, just stop talking), and go back to rocking back and forth dribbling while playing with your crayons.

It's funny how you accuse me of going off topic, when I'm talking about the minutemen and you’re off on a tangent about Northern Ireland (another situation you know nothing about, not much of a surprise there). But if you want to go off on tangents lets weigh in on the US's excellent track record in Cuba, Mexico, Chile, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, does that sound like a fun game, Herr MerchantNews?

It's even funnier that you insinuate I can't know what I'm talking about being from the UK when you spend all you time on a ship off in the middle of nowhere. So what's your solution el-red-necko? Apart from lynching all them thar varmints, I mean?

So, on topic: The Minutemen are vigilantes.
Off topic: Ignorant bullshit about Northern Ireland.

Geddit now moose brain? I mean hell; you’d actually lose a battle of wits with a stuffed Iguana. Did you have to practice to be as big a wanker as you are, or does it come naturally?

So are you going to support any claim you've made yet? No, okay didn't think so.

Are you going to get around to explaining how anything you've posted in your last five posts has any relevance to this thread, or in anyway explains how the Minutemen (people who by your own admission are taking the law into their own hands) aren't vigilantes (people who take the law into their own hands, in the accepted definition, not the one in PirateMarines tiny little mind)? No, okay didn't think so.

Just for the record I'd trust the BBC before I'd trust Hate Group monthly/Fox news, which are obviously your favorite news sources.

Your debating skills are actually worse than your English language skills, which I would guess given your general inability must be your second language. I mean yes, I understand English, which is why I have trouble understanding you, because whatever it is you are speaking, it sure as hell isn’t English sweety pie. Maybe you would be more comfortable conducting this in Spanish?

Lo he descubierto! Usted es un inmigrante ilegal!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 4:33 AM

REAVERMAN

Jesus F-ing Christ, Merchantmarine! Open your F-in' ears (or, ya know, your eyes in this case...)! By the simple definition of 'vigilante', the Minutemen are Vigilantes! Why you take offense to that term, I have no idea. A vigilante can be a good or a bad thing, depending on the situation! GET OVER IT!!!! What you should be debating is whether they are a good thing or not in this situation, not arguing semantics (especially where you are clearly contradicted by the freaking dictionary!)

Long story short: Stop worrying about whether they're vigilantes or not (because they are). Worry about whether they are right or wrong.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Sunday, May 14, 2006 9:21 PM

REAVERMAN,

In this particular blog do you honestly think I care about the trival notions that a group of people standing in the middle of the desert between the U.S. and Mexico are or are not vigilantes? I love the argument. What I love the most is the lost ideals and reality. I do not live in the U.S. anymore, I do not think I could tolerate what I have seen on the satillite news programs. But many of you do, and what I see are in a few months you are going to welcome 12 million or more new citizens, like it or not. It will be impossible to verify each individual as to their time line entry and we should know that. Even if there are accurate records of some arrests others are not. Add lawyers to the scenerio and tax payers will be forking out millions in legal fees for many years. In short, I do not care about the border situation, you have 11000 border patrol agents, and 12 million already in country. The social welfare program needs to increase to handle the new citizens, your schools need to expand to handle their children and the job market had better prepare for the increase in job needs. Now as for jobs, does anyone really believe any of the illegal or undocumented workers would return to their underpaid over worked no overtime job after becoming a U.S. citizen? Please be honest. These folks are hiding and doing what they can, now again in a few months they will not have too.. Like the marches have said."WE MARCH TODAY, TOMORROW WE VOTE." That is 12 million new voters give or take. Political capitol for which ever party waives them in first. The real point is, Do we care if the Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to the Mexican Gov't? Clearly we do not. Therefore inclosing, our new sensus will now read 2006 population increase 12 million and you can bet before the law signs the biggest rush since the Oklahoma land rush will be on.

Merchantmarine1

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Monday, May 15, 2006 3:40 AM