I just don't get it. What are they thinking....... by BarnStormer

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I just don't get it. What are they thinking.......

POSTED BY: BARNSTORMER
UPDATED: Thursday, May 25, 2006 08:54
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VIEWED: 2751
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Monday, May 22, 2006 10:58 AM

Read this and tell me if it makes any sense at all considering what else is happening in this country.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=3&
issue=20060519

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:35 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Jesus Christ,

or Allah have mercy...

where is the actual ruling of the case? where are the words of the justice who ruled on it? What was the name of the Case?

We have this 'objective' author's rendition of what the case decided, but call me crazy, I'm going to take it with a grain of salt until I see something a little less devoid of information.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:45 AM

CHRISISALL

Let's not confuse the children, or anything.
All of the worlds 1,700 plus religions should be represented and taught and memorized so that we can all get along...
We can fit science in there...somehow....

Praise the gods Chrisisall

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:46 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

And I'll add, while we have a great wealth of different religions in this country, Christianity is still the most prolific, still the most well-known, and apparent. If most kids in school are probably very familiar with Christianity already, how much time should they spend on it in class?

Should they spend time teaching kids how to walk in p.e.?

The point of a multicultural class is to let kids know about the rest of the world, and other ideas. If the predominant idea is Christianity, it stands to reason that that doesn't need as much attention, right?

And for that matter, what the hell are you so afraid of? The best thing that you can do when you're learning about your own religion is to understand how it differs from other religions. That isn't going to make muslims out of these kids, nor atheists. Its going to help them to understand their own beliefs in more context, and that's a good thing.

All that bunk about the teachers disparaging christianity was nonsense, if you go by that article, which gives no real evidence of any such thing.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:50 AM

CHRISISALL

...and I have a REAL problem with that 'one nation, under God' thing, too....

Buddha is the only true voice Chrisisall

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:56 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Chrissisal,

your statement makes it sound like you think multicultural studies have no value in terms of hard education.

I'd disagree.

One of the great disconnects people have in this country is how we see ourselves versus how we are seen. there is no intropsection -- we just always do right no matter what it is we do.

We need a broader understanding of our world, not a narrow one. In order to understand ourselves we need to try to understand others.

Now if you want to talk about taking time away from science, intelligent design would be a good place to start

on edit, maybe you weren't being sarcastic...just hyperbolic

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Monday, May 22, 2006 1:11 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

your statement makes it sound like you think multicultural studies have no value in terms of hard education.

We NEED multicultural studies, and religions are surely a part of that, like theories of Atlantis, or Ancient Astronauts, but we musn't over-spend our time on them to even the partial exclusion of all else.
You know, the way literature classes don't generally focus on JUST romantic writings.
Real religious study has it's place- Churches and Mosques and Temples and such.

Chrisisall, no time for superstitions, not even his own

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Monday, May 22, 2006 1:15 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

Yeah, I don't think studies about religions are sepparate from studies on different cultures themselves though, so I don't mind religions finding their way into school studies...it's not a matter of learning superstitions, its a matter of learning about people...you know, all that Campbell stuff.

edit,

oh you said that.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:11 PM

REAVERMAN

I cant believe this

!!! You can easily teach kids about the basics of another culture without going into the "Praise Allah" bullshit!

When I was in school, they taught us about the basic tenets of Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Judaism, but that was from a very analytical, "not-going-to-tell-you-what-to-think" perspective. That, I think, is perfectly fine.

However, religious studies like this, where verses, prayers, and devotions are memorized have NO place in public schools! Its hard enough to teach science, math, and history to kids without throwing superstitious crap in there too. Whatever judge or judges that authorized this need to be fired IMMEDIATELY!

... Phew, okay, I'm glad thats out. Just so you know, I have nothing against other religions (I have none myself), I just dont want my kids exposed to religion unless its me doing the exposing.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:11 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

it's not a matter of learning superstitions, its a matter of learning about people...you know, all that Campbell stuff.

Agreed.

Chrisisall, reading Power of Myth

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:16 PM

STORYMARK

I think I'd like to read something from anouther source. This article was written with to much obvious bias for me to take it at face value.

To me, it seems like one or a few teachers tried to do something original and interesting for a unit (which is the only way to get them to pay attention), made a stupid call, and carried it a bit too far. The article makes it sound like schools are insidiously being used as Islamic conversion camps - which seems a bit out there.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:59 PM

SIMONWHO

Here's the actual court ruling:

http://secure.nsba.org/site/docs/34200/34136.pdf

The strange thing is, a lot of Christian activists are delighted by this ruling; if the court can approve of children being taught what it is to be a Muslim then why can't they be taught what it is to be a Christian?

Of course, that totally ignores the basic point that teaching children once about Islam and having the basis of the school curriculum centred around Christianity are two very different things.

I agree with the ruling but also think there should be a similar latitude to Christian events in schools.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 3:48 PM

GUNRUNNER

Why not just have them hand over there milk money to the nearest mosque so they can learn about jizyah. They can be dhimmi for a day. They are going to learn about it eventualy when they become adults and they find out where their tax money goes.

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
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Monday, May 22, 2006 4:06 PM

FLETCH2

I went to a protestant religious school, had one hour of worship every day and 2 hours of religious instruction a week. That instruction came from an ex Jesuit priest and included comparative theology with Buddism and Islam. I felt no pressing need to change my religion as a result.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 8:03 PM

DALLASFIREFLY

That is an idiotic decision by the court. Clearly the school is doing more than informing students about the history of Islam. It's delving into actual religious eduction, which is clearly a violation of the separation of church and state. I hate to agree with a right wing publication but if the same school had implemented a role playing game about Christianity the same court would have ruled it unconstitutional. That decision would be the correct one of course, there should be no religious education in public schools. It does piss me off that multiculturalists think it's somehow ok to violate the Constitution as long as it's done so to teach about other religions.

I wanna be Mr. Baccarin!

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:03 AM

BARNSTORMER

Everything said above is what gets me. I'm all for teaching our students about other cultures and all.

Heck, one of my main self imposed rules when trying to gauge a situation or event is to imagine myself in the shoes of the other side.

But this is so wrong on so many levels that I'm having real difficulty. Just the fact that it's a ruling from California confuses the H*ll out of me.

Are they not the ones who seem to be at the fore front of erradicating all signs of religion from government insitutions?

I just don't get it.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's a stupid decision. When the Founding Fathers drew a line between religion and state they didn't mean between a particular religion, they meant all religions.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:56 AM

GUNRUNNER

While were at why not have the teachers teach from Saudi textbooks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006
051901769.html

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:21 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I just skimmed through the ruling, but it appears to court was deferring to previous Supreme Court rulings as well as previous rulings by other District Courts. By following previous rulings about this very issue, the District Court appears to have made a very conservative finding.

Previous cases were in reference to Indian rain dances, witch trials, and reenactments of the nativity.

The Supreme Court ruling said "Some student participatory activity involving school-sponsored ritual may be permissible even under [the Establishment Clause] where the activity is used for secular pedagogical purposes. For example, having children act out a ceremonial American Indian dance for the purpose of exploring and learning about American Indian culture may be permissible even if the dance was religious ritual. Similarly, a reenactment of the Last Supper or a Passover dinner might be permissible if presented for historical or cultural purposes."

The Appellate Court said: "Applied to the present case, the challenged curriculum constitutes only a very small part of an otherwise clearly nonreligious program of the study of world history, including study of other religions. The context also includes a clear record that the instruction at issue did not occur in a sacred or worshipful manner, but was done for the clear secular goal of teaching students about Islam in an engaging manner."

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:02 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
The Appellate Court said: "Applied to the present case, the challenged curriculum constitutes only a very small part of an otherwise clearly nonreligious program of the study of world history, including study of other religions. The context also includes a clear record that the instruction at issue did not occur in a sacred or worshipful manner, but was done for the clear secular goal of teaching students about Islam in an engaging manner."

I was expecting something like that. I got the feeling this was a story blown out of proportion not because they're teaching nothing but Islam (which they’re not) but because someone has gotten all pissed off because they're teaching religion without saying "but Christianity is the only true one and these people are stupid and evil for thinking different".

They're erroneously comparing giving an education on different religions with forcing Christianity upon people by the sound of it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:03 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

Sygm,

when talking about culture, how do you separate it from religion? The religion informs the culture, and vice versa. What kind of holes would you propose we leave when trying to teach other cultures?

Or who is going to determine whether something was purely a matter of cultural teaching, or if it got into that ugly area of teaching about religion, since there is no real clear line.

Barnstormer,

show me how California has been interested in eraticating religion in the public sphere. Nothing about those who care about Civil Liberties(as I contend mostliberals do) tries to do away with the individual right to religion or religious expression.

Freedom of religious expression is not the same thing as mandating prayer in schools(which is done not as a study of what prayer is, but as an actual ritual). Freedom of religious expression does not extend to forceably jamming "intelligent" design into our science classes...1 of thousands of creation theories that involves a spiritual idea with no scientific evidence, next to the theory of evolution, which is scientific fact(the theory refers to not knowing exactly how it happened.)

See, I have no problem with intelligent design as a spiritual belief, and I would have no problem with it being taught(about) in a class on world cultures or religions, but it does not belong in science, because it does not use science as its methodology.

A clear distinction apparently needs to be made for you, between teaching about something, and preaching something - between secular learning about religion and spiritual religious indoctrination.

Good example - the supreme court ruling that said the ten commandments could stand on public land because they had a secular historical context as to their relationship to the formation of law -

of course that does hilight that this case went to court - that somebody wanted to have this monument removed...I have to take a step back and accept that there are occasional fringes in atheistic and liberal groups which I think miss the point at times.

But I'd point out that the organizations like the ACLU, which I believe is non-partisan, but is constantly used by right wing nut jobs like O'reily to rail against all the evil liberals with their law-suits, has defended Christians in favor of their personal religious expression time and time again. I am sure there have been cases in murky areas where they may have been championing a somewhat misguided cause, but for the most part, they are concerned only with protecting the Bill of Rights.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Unfortunately there weren't any details, but I imagine the classes went something like this ...

Ok, so when you first get up in the morning you pray to Allah. John (class titters) will demonstrate how you bow to Mecca (John blushes, bows to Mecca, boys laugh and say Way to go JOHN!). Then you say - all together class (class recites There is no god but Allah ...).

etc

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:04 PM

SASSALICIOUS

I also think a distinction could be made as to whether or not the children are penalized for not participating. I don't really see a problem having the children role-play Islam as long as it's not literally a religion class. However, if someone is very very devoutly into whatever religion, I think he or she should have the option to not participate in the activity.

It's kind of like Jehovah's Witnesses (I think) and the pledge of allegiance. They get away with not saying it and I'm fairly certain they wouldn't partake of this activity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:54 AM

BARNSTORMER

Very good points brought up.

What would really help would be a copy of the course plan in the class and an idea of how it was taught to the students.

I wonder if any of the local news rags had reported any of that.

hmmmm, I'll see if I can find anything.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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