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Policy decisions are determined not by careful weighing of an issue's complexities; rather, they're dictated by a cabal of ideologues and political advisors operating outside the view of top cabinet officials. The President is not a fully engaged administrator but an enigma who is, at best, guarded and poker-faced but at worst, uncurious, unintelligent, and a puppet of larger forces

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In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, risk lives in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage of the briefings.

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck on Aug. 29 but assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."
...Linked by secure video, Bush's bravado on Aug. 29 starkly contrasts with the dire warnings his disaster chief and a cacophony of federal, state and local officials provided during the four days before the storm.

A top hurricane expert voiced "grave concerns" about the levees and then-Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown told the president and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that he feared there weren't enough disaster teams to help evacuees at the Superdome.
...Bush declared four days after the storm, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" that gushed deadly flood waters into New Orleans. But the transcripts and video show there was plenty of talk about that possibility -- and Bush was worried too.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Once again, your delusion has unhinged you. Bush didn't lie.

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[[]Brown[]] implored officials to "push the envelope as far as you can," noting that he had already spoken to President Bush twice that day and described the president as "very, very interested in this situation."
"He's very engaged, and he's asking a lot of really good questions I would expect him to ask," Brown said of Bush. "I say that only because I want everyone to recognize ... how serious the situation remains."
Brown has criticized the White House for miscommunication that led to some delays but said in an interview Thursday that he never directly blamed Bush.
"I think the president was confident in the ability of FEMA to respond to this, and what I should have done was go to them earlier and say, 'Let's not wait to see how it unfolds. Let's bring everything and go overboard."'

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Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
I can give you broad statements without confidence on just about anything any day of the week; it can be very difficult to justify mobilizing forces to defend against broad unconfident concerns, even though in hindsight sometimes we might wish we had.

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The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

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WASHINGTON -- As Hurricane Katrina approached the Gulf Coast, President Bush's top disaster agency warned of the likelihood of levee breaches that could leave New Orleans submerged "for weeks or months," a communications blackout that would hamper rescue efforts and "at least 100,000 poverty-stricken people" stranded in the city.

Those remarkably accurate predictions were in a 40-page "Fast Analysis Report" compiled by the Department of Homeland Security on Aug. 28. Documents show that the report was sent by e-mail to the White House Situation Room at 1:47 a.m. on Aug. 29, hours before the deadly storm made landfall.

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I don’t know how credible O’Neill is. Despite the fact that he has recanted his “vivid language” in his book, there is a serious impropriety issues associated with his dissemination of classified information to the media.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What I see here is a series of interlocking failures: A President who apparently doesn't have even enough "general knowledge" to make decisions

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Originally posted by Khyron:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Once again, your delusion has unhinged you. Bush didn't lie.

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Could you maybe quickly clear me up on how he didn't lie? There are numerous sources saying that he did indeed lie, and so I think the statement 'Bush didn't lie' needs a proof or clarification of some sort.

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The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.

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Originally posted by Hero:
You only see what you want to see. Did Bush make a mistake? Yes. The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.

On one hand you have a Mayor refusing to use local resources to evacuate his people, sending away empty passanger trains and leaving a thousand buses to be destroyed while gathering tens of thousands of his citizens in locations that were neither safe nor supplied.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Let's see- you have a category 5 hurricane bearing straight down on a city, 80% of which is below sea level, and you expect that "the locals" can take care of it?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Bullshit, pure and simple.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, Hero said that "nothing" was done. That was what I was responding to. Both the Mayor and the Governor took action. Was it always effective? No. Was it "nothing"? No.

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In order for the buses to have been used, the bus DRIVERS would have to have been available.

Does anyone see any way around that scenario? Geezer? Hero? Auraptor? Whomever???

Let me repeat that: Does anyone see any way around that scenario?

If not, will you please stop bringing up the "the buses"? It's stupid.

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You don't think they could have found a thousand drivers? How about one? They didn't even find one.

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According to RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook, an RTA emergency plan would supply 64 buses and 10 lift vans to transport people, either out of town or to local shelters. Its largest buses hold about 60 people each. However, city officials emphasize that the city is overmatched: “It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out,” says New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews. [Times-Picayune, 7/24/2005] In July 2005, Cook will warn officials that only 100 RTA buses will likely be available for a possible evacuation because the RTA will need to continue its regular operations until shut down by a city curfew. Bus availability will be further limited by the number of volunteer drivers who would agree to drive them away, she says. Moreover, even if the RTA's entire 364-bus fleet is deployed, it could evacuate only about 22,000 people—less than one-fifth of those needing transportation. [Times-Picayune, 7/08/2005]

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Yes. The mistake was relying on state and local Democratic officials whose competence was matched only by their common sense.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
WOW, nobody "anticipated" the failure of the levees? What is your definition of "anticipate"? So, I went to the web dictionary, and here are the top five common defintions of "anticipate":.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I saw an interview with him recently. He didn't seem too apologetic in the interview. His appropriation of information was I think as much for his own protection as anything. It certainly doesn't call his creidibility into question. His loyalty maybe, but not his credibility.

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I think he did it to sell a book. He was trying to sensationalize his opinions by promoting some authority of classified information. That’s why he went on tv and brandished a document marked ‘secret.’ He was trying to advertise that he ‘had the scoop’ so buy his book. But what he really did, from my vantage, was paint himself as untrustworthy.

It's worth pointing out though, that O’Neill was absolved of any criminal activity by the DoJ.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Between the two, I don't see much to choose from. Ultimately, the problem is worse than just that Bush/Cheney need to be fired tomorrow. Or Yesterday. But the whole slew of party leadership in both parties needs to change drastically. There's nothing that's being forwarded by anyone in the leadership of either side right now that is going to do enough to steer us away from either collision course, the global conflict one, or the economic collapse.

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Finn:

I’m not inclined to see things so dire, but for the first time in a while I actually read all the way through one of your posts.

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Finn:

You’ve made some very lucid, albeit very pessimistic, comments that make me feel that I perhaps should give O’Neill a second look. Maybe I’ll read his book, which I had previously written off as a waste of time.

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Sigmym:

The only person I've seen address the scary stuff from his Senate seat is Feingold. Frankly, I don't think McCain is up to it. And Condi? She's part of the problem.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW, I thought I'd bring this up:

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The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

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This was publised in that alarmist left-wing magazine, the National Geographic, in 2004. cryptome.org/nola-breach.htm

Apparently disaster was not only predicted by National Geographic (and even FEMA, years in advance of the event) but also by FEMA just hours before landfall

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WASHINGTON -- As Hurricane Katrina approached the Gulf Coast, President Bush's top disaster agency warned of the likelihood of levee breaches that could leave New Orleans submerged "for weeks or months," a communications blackout that would hamper rescue efforts and "at least 100,000 poverty-stricken people" stranded in the city.

Those remarkably accurate predictions were in a 40-page "Fast Analysis Report" compiled by the Department of Homeland Security on Aug. 28. Documents show that the report was sent by e-mail to the White House Situation Room at 1:47 a.m. on Aug. 29, hours before the deadly storm made landfall.

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It would be interesting to see that report in detail.

Yes, I will admit that many people breathed a small sigh of relief when Katrina lost a little strength and shifted course slightly. For a half-day, it looked as though NOLA had escaped the disaster that was widely anticipated by the media and by the public and by everyone except maybe the President.

What I see here is a series of interlocking failures: A President who apparently doesn't have even enough "general knowledge" to make decisions w/o Cheney. Staff who is unwilling to bring bad news to the President (who is conistently reported by insiders to be disengaged except when he's enraged). Appointment of political supporters and hangers-on in top postions of authority and responsibility. (I found it ironic that Brown's answer to disaster was to kick the problem upstairs rather than taking the reins of his position.) And the worst problem of all: Failure to react to and plan for anything other than the most optimistic set of circumstances. The time to start planning for a disaster of that magnitude is not hours before it happens, when it appears that things might not go as badly as widely anticipated. If a response was not in place by the time that briefing had taken place it was already too late.

BTW- I give Bush a "pass" on a lot of things. The guy is cognitively impaired, and he isn't in charge anyway.

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There is no story here. Bush is 100 % clueless here.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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There is no story here. Bush is 100 % blameless here.

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There, fixed that for you.

Non-story indeed, Next!

-F

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
If you follow things through end to end, FEMA screwed it, top to bottom - but I for one will never forget the individual contributions of folk who went well above and beyond the call to help folk just because it was the right thing to do.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ah....nothing like some Katrina memories first thing in the morning.

Bottom Line for me : The US f'd up...& f'd up big time. Day after day of all those people just waiting in the hot sun, babies crying, no sanitation, people laying dead in the streets...pretty un-imagineable in this country. People can debate the fine points concerning the "offical" responses & who did what, or who didn't do what. Blame Nagin, blame Blanco...but that's not intellectually honest. It was the Federal Govt.'s clear responsibilty to "do the right thing" no matter what.....the ineffective leadership in New Orleans should have been expected by anyone in Washington with an IQ over 15, and they should have used their "emergency" powers to prepare and deliver relief much, much sooner. I don't think there was any race angle to the entire debacle, but it's not hard to see why many make that claim.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Ah....nothing like some Katrina memories first thing in the morning.

Bottom Line for me : The US f'd up...& f'd up big time. Day after day of all those people just waiting in the hot sun, babies crying, no sanitation, people laying dead in the streets...pretty un-imagineable in this country. People can debate the fine points concerning the "offical" responses & who did what, or who didn't do what. Blame Nagin, blame Blanco...but that's not intellectually honest. It was the Federal Govt.'s clear responsibilty to "do the right thing" no matter what.....the ineffective leadership in New Orleans should have been expected by anyone in Washington with an IQ over 15, and they should have used their "emergency" powers to prepare and deliver relief much, much sooner. I don't think there was any race angle to the entire debacle, but it's not hard to see why many make that claim.

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Wow Jong , you couldn't have this MORE wrong w/ the comment that it's up to the Federal Gov't to " do the right thing" . The Fed Gov't TRIED to do the right thing, but there are things , like laws and jurisdiction, which the Gov of Louisiana used to keep the Feds from coming in an helping out in a timely fashion. Also, the PRIMARY fault bearer should be Mayor Nagin. It was he who failed to impliment ANY of his evacuation plan, and it was HIS police Dept which failed miserably in the days before and after the storm.

One can only imagine the distorted headlines and the outcries of 'POLICE STATE ' had Bush ushered in the Nat Guard on a city w/ a BLACK Mayor in a state w/ a WOMAN Governor, both being Democrats! Hell, even w/ the reaction as it was, there were STILL such headlines and accusations of Martial Law by a Dictator in Chief.

Fault does and always will lay with...
Mayor Nagin
Gov. Blanco
Civilians failing to heed the evacuation warnings
The US Army Corps of Engineers, who , along w/ the contractors in LA, skimped and cut corners in the building of the levees, by pocketing the rest of the Fed $$.

Those levees don't fail, the death toll goes WAY down, and we've already forgotten about Katrina.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Jongs, I think that it's easier to say these things after the fact, than before. Fact is, predicting landfall for a Hurricane is near impossible, so trying to coordinate where to send the resources prior to landfall is simply an act in futility.

On the other hand, I will yield the view that Bush could have signed an E.O and forced the issue more, erring on the side of safety . His main fault is he has too much trust in those beneath him to do their job. W often balks at taking the bull by the horns and exerting some of his Executive Office control over matters. Unlike Reagan, I doubt W would have actually gone through and fired those who didn't report for work under the PATCO scenario.

With W, there's more 'trust' and less 'verify' than there needs to be. One of his biggest flaws, imo.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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