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Originally posted by LostMarauder:
Been following and talking about this plan for almost 15 years..the best part are that it helps the poor, encourages saving, and nails the "underground" communities like drug dealers and such. Afterall, they love their big toys, right? Imagine nailing them for 23% every time they purchase a yacht, limo, etc.

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Once the FairTax is in place the free market will work its magic and prices will be the same as they are now.

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And don't worry, prices for goods would not go up. There are 20-25% of embedded taxes built into every product we buy currently. To understand this first one must know that all cost of business is passed on. If a company has to pay a tax they just build it into the price of their product. Companies do not pay taxes, people do.

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I can't see how this would raise the same amount of money, so how can it support all that current taxes do? The US is running a huge deficit and you seem to be advocating a system that would reduce income.

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Well that's the thing 'free market magic'. It's like trickle down, it's magic, doesn't actually happen. The prices will go up if the tax is put up, that's how it always works. In all likely-hood companies would take it as an opportunity to add a slightly higher percentage to their profits, since the price rises are happening anyway and they can blame it all on the Government, why wouldn't they try to make out on the deal?

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This actually supports the concept that prices go up. The company also buys things so it also pays tax so it still builds in the Fairtax into product prices.

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But more over why shouldn't a business pay taxes? Why should they have the protections and rights of an individual but none of the responsibilities?

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Originally posted by Nurumla:
They would make the same amount of money as they currently do off taxes for a simply reason: it gathers taxes from a much larger base than we currently do. It taxes the large underground economy on all of their (rather large) purchases. It taxes people who visit our country on the goods and services they buy (but they'll still be paying the same amount of money they are now). The point of the 23% as being selected was it would be enough to raise the same amount as we currently do off of the income tax.

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They would not be able to stay in business if they did not lower their prices. Competition would drive them down. One business lowers their price and then everyone else has to do the same thing to be able to compete with them. That's how it works.

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Goods are only taxed at the retail level. At levels of production they are not taxed.

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As I said before all costs of business are passed on to the consumer- that includes tax compliance costs. Business do not pay taxes. They make sure that we pay it for them (by building it into the cost). Making the United States a tax haven of the world (which is what the FairTax would do) would open up so much new business here and bring in so much money.

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This isn't answering my question. I asked why a business should enjoy the rights privileges and protections of an individual, but none of the inherent responsibilities (like paying taxes).

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When you lower taxes no matter how you cut it you have less money which means you have to cut government services.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
I like this plan. It would encourage a large underground economy as people sought ways to avoid the tax. I think this would be very healthy and throw a wrench in plans to shift us all to a cashless economy.

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www.freedomtofascism.com


1040 Checkmate?

DOJ Dismisses Felony Tax Prosecution With Prejudice, After PRA Defense Raised

Evidence OMB Complicit In Income Tax Fraud

DOJ & IRS Petitioned To Explain

http://GiveMeLiberty.org
June 9, 2006

On May 12, 2006 in Peoria, Illinois, the attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) begged the court to dismiss all charges against IRS victim Robert Lawrence in federal District Court.

The motion for dismissal came on the heels of a surprise tactic by Lawrence's defense attorney Oscar Stilley.

The tactic threatened exposure of IRS's on-going efforts to defraud the public. The move put DOJ attorneys in a state of panic that left them with only one alternative: beg for dismissal, with prejudice.

Stilley's tactic paid off. Sixty days earlier, the DOJ had indicted Lawrence on three counts of willful failure to file a 1040 form, and three felony counts of income tax evasion. The federal Judge dismissed all charges with prejudice, meaning the DOJ cannot charge Lawrence with those crimes again.

The trial was to have started on Monday morning, May 15th.

On Wednesday, May 10, Stilley mailed a set of documents to the DOJ in response to DOJ's discovery demands. The documents revealed to DOJ for the first time that Lawrence was basing his entire defense on an act of Congress, 44 U.S.C. 3500 – 3520, also known as the "Paperwork Reduction Act" (PRA).

In Section 3512 of the Act, titled "Public Protection," it says that no person shall be subject to any penalty for failing to comply with an agency's collection of information request (such as a 1040 form), if the request does not display a valid control number assigned by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in accordance with the requirements of the Act, or if the agency fails to inform the person who is to respond to the collection of information that he is not required to respond to the collection of information request unless it displays a valid control number.

In Section 3512 Congress went on to authorize that the protection provided by Section 3512 may be raised in the form of a complete defense at any time during an agency's administrative process (such as an IRS Tax Court or Collection and Due Process Hearing) or during a judicial proceeding (such as Lawrence's criminal trial).

click link for the rest of this long article:
http://givemeliberty.org/RTP2/UPDATES/Update2006-06-09.htm



The Law They Hope You Never Read

As interviewed on Rense Radio

By William A. Shields
www.Rense.com,
Feb 6, 2006

At first I thought this issue was amusing. Then, the more I researched it, the more compelling it became, and today, I'm here to tell you that the subject of this column is arguably, the most important issue of our lifetime. I'm speaking of fraud on a scale so massive and so enduring it could only be perpetrated by the federal government. That is to say, a federal government operating way outside of the limits mandated by the Constitution.

Everyone knows you must pay federal income taxes. There are people in jail right now for income tax evasion. The vast majority of those persons, if not ALL of them, have voluntarily (you can't be forced to swear an oath) signed a return under penalty of perjury, swearing that they were subject to the income tax, and that all or most of their income was taxable according to the IRS code, (federal law Title 26). Then, they lied about how much income they earned giving the government everything they need to prosecute them successfully. The tax return becomes a signed confession of guilt.

Most Americans have never seen the law that requires them to file a return, and most have never researched the IRS code to determine how much, if any, of their income is taxable under the law as it is actually written. But everyone knows there is such a law, and everyone knows that all of their income is taxable.

What if everyone was wrong? It has happened before. Once upon a time, everyone thought the earth was flat. Today, almost everyone believes they owe federal income taxes. However, when the actual words, written in the IRS tax code are examined, an ugly truth begins to emerge. And the truth is, that most Americans have been systematically and intentionally defrauded into paying a tax they do not owe.

Did you ever wonder about the "voluntary" nature of federal income taxes? If the law requires one to pay, why does the IRS call for "voluntary compliance?" If one is charged with violating the law is his or her appearance in court voluntary? Does one serve time in a federal prison voluntarily or is there some sort of mandatory attendance associated with a prison sentence?

The reason for voluntary compliance is simple. The federal government is barred by the Constitution from taxing the income of most Americans. To tax each and every endeavor within the states is to regulate ALL activity, and where is the limited nature in that? The federal government is allowed by the Constitution to regulate international and foreign commerce, so they imposed an income tax applicable to income from international and foreign commerce. However, they still would like some of YOUR money, so they wrote the law in a very convoluted and easily misunderstood way.

But, as complex and torturous as it may be, the law must still be printed in English and in black letters on white paper. To determine one's taxable income under the law as it is written, one must find section 861 of the tax code and read what it says. The best way to start understanding this subject is watch Theft by Deception a fine documentary video produced and available from Larken Rose.

But don't take anyone's word for it. In order for you to refute the IRS's false claim on your money, you must know the law for yourself. Armed with that knowledge, you can stop voluntarily complying with a law that does not exist. To be more correct, stop complying with a misapplication of a law that does exist.

My research shows that at least 300 persons have requested clarification from the IRS on this subject in general and section 861 in particular. To date, the IRS has refused to address these questions and they have resorted to bullying, blustering and threatening. But ALWAYS they have refused to address specific questions about section 861. Also, to my knowledge, not ONE person has been prosecuted for relying on the written law as expressed in section 861 of the tax code, and has paid the least amount or taxes owed ­ ZERO!

And legally paying zero federal income taxes is the most patriotic thing an American can do. Because most Americans are ignorant of the law, they have been unwittingly forging their own chains. It is the American taxpayer, more than anyone else, who is responsible for rampant federalism. The taxpayer is responsible for federal meddling into areas they have no business in, such as education and commerce, not to mention foreign aid and foreign entanglements.

In a Ponzi scheme the fraud eventually collapses from a lack of new investors. In the federal income tax fraud, there is no dearth of gullible prospects, because as P.T Barnum once noted, there is a sucker born every minute.

http://rense.com/general69/lfc.htm




www.freedomtofascism.com

America: From Freedom to Fascism

Movie Media Mafia jumps on Truth bandwagon. IRS and Fed Reserve Banksters get Michael Moored.

Russo Film Scores Big With Audience.

Standing Room Only In Tucson.

On to Denver and Austin.

http://GiveMeLiberty.org
January 30, 2006

DOWNLOAD MOVIE TRAILER:
http://freedomtofascism.com

Aaron Russo and WTP scored a one-two punch in Tucson on Saturday.

A crowd of several hundred packed a Tucson movie theater Saturday afternoon. First, they were treated to an advance screening of Aaron Russo's latest movie, "America . . .From Freedom To Fascism," a powerful and engaging 95-minute film about the problem in America – the loss of Freedom. Then they viewed our new 55-minute DVD about the Right to Petition as the only non-violent solution to the problem.

Russo's DVD is a dramatic wake up call that stirs the full range of emotions. It presents, in an absorbing, credible, fact-filled fashion, America's chief domestic problem: the fall of Freedom and the rise of fascism, tyranny, despotism and the police state. The film begins by documenting the dual frauds of 1913, the federal income tax and the Federal Reserve System, and covers topics such as the national ID card, human chip implants, vote fraud, government lying and spying, CODEX and the New World Order.

WTP's DVD documents and records for history the events of July 19, 2004: the gathering and speeches at the National Press Club and the march from there to the federal courthouse to file our lawsuit seeking a declaration of our Right to hold the government accountable to the Constitution by filing Petitions for Redress and retaining our money until our grievances are Redressed.

Following the showing of the RTP DVD, Schulz gave an update on the progress of the lawsuit and discussed WTP's plan to bring the issue to the country's attention next April.

Russo, who wrote, directed and produced the film, was given a standing ovation that clearly affected him emotionally.

The feature film, done in a style similar to last year's documentary by Michael Moore, "Fahrenheit 911," presents a common-man's perspective of how we our losing our Freedom and the Republic to the IRS, the banking cartel and the effects of corporate domination.

http://givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Update2006-01-30.htm

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/022406_sneak_preview.shtml

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/277

A wonderful story from Aaron Russo's new movie, "America: From Freedom to Fascism"
Audio MP3 downloads:
http://americanradioshow.us/archive.html

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Ultimately, the consumer pays every cent of tax collected by the government. If Widgets, Inc pays tax on the raw materials used to manufacture its products, the company will pass those costs along to the retailer, who then will pass them to the consumer. So the consumer pays the hidden taxes now (20-25% of the retail price) or will pay them in addition to the much lower retail price in the fair tax system.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Uncle Scam's Income Tax is voluntary - 16th Amendment never ratified by the States

The "Fair Tax" (aka European VAT Sales Tax) or Flat Tax

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Originally posted by SignyM:
First of all it's not fair. Because the poor and middle class spend the largest portion of their income on consumption (the wealthy invest/ speculate with theirs) it would tax the poorer more and eventually cycle more money percent-wise into the hands of the upper class.

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Your argument contains a deep logical flaw. If it's true that ultimately the consumers pay the tax anyway, why not just tax the corporations and be done with it? Clearly, it DOES make a difference "who" pays the taxes otherwise the corporations wouldn't be fighting taxes so hard!

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Actually no, the FairTax is the best system for the poor there is (short of communism, which I am completely against). The FairTax Plan provides a tax prebate every month that completely relieves individuals and families living at or below the poverty level from paying taxes. 100% tax-free living at or below the poverty level. No other tax strategy has so strongly empowered the lower classes to climb their way towards earning a dignified living.

The FairTax treats all Americans exactly the same. The wealthy will no longer be able to take advantage of loopholes or use expensive tax attorneys and accountants to, as some have said, “cheat” their way out of paying taxes.

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Originally posted by Nurumla:

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Uncle Scam's Income Tax is voluntary - 16th Amendment never ratified by the States

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And the VAT tax imposes a tax at every intermediate step of production, so the goods reach the final consumer with much of the tax already implicit in the price. The FairTax only taxes at the retail level.

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"The 54th Bilderberger meeting will be held in Ottowa, Canada, 8-11, 2006. The conference will deal mainly with European-American relations, Energy, Russia, Iran, the Middle East, Asia, Terrorism and Immigration. Approximately 130 participants will attend of whom about 2/4rds will come from Europe and the balance from North America. The meeting is private in order to encourage frank and open discussion. Bildergerg takes its name from the hotel in Holland, where the first meeting took place in 1954. Bilderberg is a small, flexible, informal and off-the-record international forum in which different veiwpoints can be expressed and mutual understanding enhanced. Participants have agreed not to give interviews to the press during the meeting. In contacts with the media after the conference it is an established rule that no attribution should be made to individual participants of what was discussed during the meeting. There will be no press conference. A list of participants is appended."
-Bilderberger Press Release 2006
www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/bilderberg_list2006.htm
www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/secretb.htm


David Rockefeller at Bilderberg 2006
Photo by Jean Levac, The Ottawa Citizen

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
—David Rockefeller, autobiography "Memoirs"

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
—David Rockefeller, oily Jewish bankster, founder of World Trade Center, and multi-trillionaire

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Again, no. If cooperations had less tax burden there would be less burden to be passed down to the consumer, thus making that business better suited for competition. And competition is what makes the world go round, for them at least.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The fact still remains that since the poor spend a far greater percentage of their earnings on products in comparision to the wealthy that they're going to be making a greater percentage wise tax contribution than the rich.

With common income taxing schemes the percentage of tax increases with earnings, the FairTax system would reverse that, which is unfair.

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To address your first point- what this tax will do is create a tax "hump". The rebate will affect the very poorest for a larger percent of income, the top 10% will get whacked less (on a percentage basis) because they spend far less on consumption, and the middle class- the ones who already have the largest tax burden (as a percentage of income) will once again get nailed. It's still not fair because it targets the middle class.

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but the LAST thing that corporations want is competition

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Originally posted by Nurumla:
The FairTax eliminates the IRS ...

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To address your first point- what this tax will do is create a tax "hump". The rebate will affect the very poorest for a larger percent of income, the top 10% will get whacked less (on a percentage basis) because they spend far less on consumption, and the middle class- the ones who already have the largest tax burden (as a percentage of income) will once again get nailed. It's still not fair because it targets the middle class.-Signy

This does not target anyone as I said before its fair, everyone gets treated exactly the same. See above.-Nurumla

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...but the LAST thing that corporations want is competition.-Signy

I am aware that if they could have a monopoly they would take it. But they don't have a monopoly. They have people they have to compete against to keep their prices in check.-Nurumla

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Originally posted by Nurmla:
It think we've reached the source of our disagreement. So even though this system is better for the middle class and the lower class, you don't like it because it's not taxing the rich enough? I believe that taxing everyone the same is best.

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"In the most advanced countries the following will be pretty generally applicable:..a heavy progressive or graduated income tax." That was written by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto.

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This does not target anyone as I said before its fair, everyone gets treated exactly the same. See above.

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I am aware that if they could have a monopoly they would take it. But they don't have a monopoly. They have people they have to compete against to keep their prices in check.

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