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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday

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It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Presently Iran would be a diaster for the US. It would expand the war beyond the US military ability to conduct it, and the international community will trip over each other to seperate themselves from another American war.

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then Pakistan lets loose with a nuke... then Israel... then India...

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Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm having too much fun watching the conspiracy theories get more and more bizarre.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm having too much fun watching the conspiracy theories get more and more bizarre.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Besides, they don't have to INVADE Iran. A nice bombing campaign will do.

And then Pakistan lets loose with a nuke... then Israel... then India...

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Originally posted by rue:

Nothing to say about your fearless leader? You know, the one with the brilliant foreign policy of resolving conflicts, stabilizing the globe, using US influence for world peace and prosperity.

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Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

So you find the situation funny.

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Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

I looked, looked, looked, looked - could not find ANY indication in any of your posts that you had any concerns whatsoever. Not for potential ME war, not for potential nuclear escalation, and certainly not for casualites. YOUR response? Nothing about the situation. Just - it's funny watching the posts. Cold hearted, twisted, sick, creepy. That's you.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday

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It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.

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Originally posted by rue:
About a year ago I said the next pre-selected target after Iraq would be either Iran or Syria. Maybe it will be Iran AND Syria.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday

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It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Besides, they don't have to INVADE Iran. A nice bombing campaign will do.

And then Pakistan lets loose with a nuke... then Israel... then India...

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Do you really think Iran will allow itself to sit and be bombed without response ?

Picture 300,000 trained troops crossing into Iraq to support the full on Shia uprising that bombing campaign would start

The Gulf closing, and what will the gulf states do... side with the aggressor, or their neighbor

Perhaps moves into Afganistan, as well as the former Soviet republics who traded cash for US forward basing... when faced with a uprising of their own will they change sides ?

Maybe Iran will find other creative ways to strike back... and only the US will call it " terrorism "



" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm having too much fun watching the conspiracy theories get more and more bizarre.

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You seem certain no nukes will get loose...

Chrisisall

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Not at all. The situation is indeed serious. It's likely to get a lot of people killed. I'm just sort of amazed that all SignyM and Rue can make of it is another opportunity to expound on their anti-Bush fantasies. The problems surrounding Israel, the Palestinians, the whole area, and US involvement there go back over a half-century. It deserves serious discussion, not the "Bad, bad Bush" one-liners it seems to get from them.

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A cold calculation of geopolitics does not explain Jimmy Carter poring endlessly over maps of the Sinai, personally drawing possible lines of Israeli-Egyptian disengagement. It does not explain why President George Herbert Walker Bush's secretary of State, James A. Baker, would sit through a 9-1/2 hour meeting with Syria's Hafez al-Assad (Mr. Baker's aides invented "important" phone calls so they could use the lavatory). Nor do policy concerns entirely explain President Clinton devoting more time to face-to-face Mideast peace negotiations than any US leader, ever, even as the prospect of success receded in the distance.

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Originally posted by kaneman:

300,000 well trained troops....HEHEHEHE

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by kaneman:

300,000 well trained troops....HEHEHEHE

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I wouldn't be so quick to laugh. Iran fields a large and semi-well equiped army. Their weapons are a bizzare mix of Soviet and American Cold War era hand offs as well as more modern Chinese and French designs. They have very modern French made air defenses and Chinese surface to surface and anti-ship missiles and a senior officer corps that fought a sustained major conflict against what was then the dominant regional power- Iraq.

They also have a large, much larger then Saddam's similar force, of Pasdaran revolutionary miltia organized in large paramilitary formations and equipped with modern weapons. Cannon fodder and irregulars.

The Iranian Navy has several modern diesel electric subs which are perfectly suited for the shallow water operations immediatly outside the Gulf, unlike American nuclear subs which are best used in deep waters further out in the Indian Ocean.

An Iranian invasion into Iraq would make quick initial headway but would bog down as American and Allied air power stopped the flow of supplies to the front. I suspect we would allow the penetration of Iraq by hundreds of thousands while massing one or two divsions in Kuwait and the Gulf States to sweep into Southern Iraq and Southwestern Iran enveloping and cutting off the Iranian Army and ensuring its destruction. Airborne and Air Mobile Units could seal the mountain passes into SW Iran and prevent the movement of relief troops and supplies.

It would be over in weeks at most requiring an immediate commitment of a Division of Light Infantry (or Airborne) and two heavy divsions (perhaps one full Army Division and some Marines and Armored Cavalry but not counting the Iraqi garrison, although by then they may be partially commited since they wont be needed in Iraq much longer), an additional air wing and a couple carriers, and appropriate support troops. It would leave us in possesion of the most oil rich portion of Iran and all of its off shore facilities, and perhaps its coastal territory immediatly around the straight all of which we could organize as a "Free Iran" (along with an American supported Kurdish zone in NW Iran, possibly leading to a partion of Iraq to create Kurdistan...although that would REALLY piss off Turkey) or else use as a platform for the liberation of the remaining portion of the country.

H

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Originally posted by rue:
Hi Gino,

My starting position on the Israel/ Palestine question:

Take US military aid out of Israel since they can't be trusted with it. Make Israel comply with the UN's border mandates. Promise swift and terrible retribution to any surrounding state that attacks Israel.

What do you think?

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It would be over in weeks at most...

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Originally posted by rue:
Hey Ginobiffaroni,

That was quite detailed. It will take some thought on my part, though I did notice we both started out with the 1967 border.

To add: my more evil side says - go ahead Israel, build that big damn wall, as long as it's on the 1967 border. It just might keep out the random suicide bomber.

But if you think with it you can go on pretending you don't have to deal with the sea of a few hundred million non-Jews you live in ... remember, the BDW is not going to keep out missiles.

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Originally posted by rue:
Promise swift and terrible retribution to any surrounding state that attacks Israel.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Economic equality. The aid the US has given Israel too much clout in the area. A UN resolution balancing that aid, say if you give 50 million to Israel an equal amount must go to Palestine.

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Money for Hamas to further their goal of Jewish genocide.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Why not, given that the other side has made no secret of it's own genocidal intent.

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When one side shoots up the other in an American Made attack chopper, with American Made missles, firing American Made machine guns with American Made ammo at then, you can imagine that the other is gonna be somewhat pissed at us, again, no moral judgement but a simple, plain fact.

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I consider Hamas, The Likud Party, and just about every political force in the region, with the sole exception of Refuseniks, to be Terrorist in nature, because they are.

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Let's not shovel that Isreal can do no wrong bolus, both sides have done horrific things, and we MUST acknowledge and accept that to propose real solutions.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The other point of spliting the aid like that is it would occur after the UN has taken responsibility for security of the country. As the UN controls the borders, that aid could not be easily spent on arms ( not right away ) but on infrastructure, healthcare , economic investment, etc

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A democracy elected Hamas, if they had a reason to moderate somewhat they might just take it...

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Originally posted by Geezer:
It deserves serious discussion, not the "Bad, bad Bush" one-liners it seems to get from them.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The other point of spliting the aid like that is it would occur after the UN has taken responsibility for security of the country. As the UN controls the borders, that aid could not be easily spent on arms ( not right away ) but on infrastructure, healthcare , economic investment, etc

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While your plan is both noble and possibly workable, will the Palestinians accept an occupying force in their Country? Or will this only provide more terrorism targets within their own borders?

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A democracy elected Hamas, if they had a reason to moderate somewhat they might just take it...

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Such as working with the opposition Fatah party and starting to dismantle their military wing? I believe these two things would resume the flow of foreign aid and better facilitate the peace process.




De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Originally posted by rue:

Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "No hostage-takings are acceptable ... but neither is the use of full-scale force in response to these, even if unlawful, actions. We will demand that all sides involved in the conflict immediately stop the bloodshed."

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by rue:

Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "No hostage-takings are acceptable ... but neither is the use of full-scale force in response to these, even if unlawful, actions. We will demand that all sides involved in the conflict immediately stop the bloodshed."

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With his Government's past dealings with Chechneya, should he really be taking this stance?

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
But Bush/Cheney have done the most to hurt and least to help the cause of peace over there..a few shots in their direction doesn't seem unwarranted...

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday

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It's about this time that I wished Bush was just a greedy businessman and not an Armageddonist.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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