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Originally posted by SergeantX:
How about we let them in legally? Then they wouldn't be illegal. Hmmm. That was simple. Next problem?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm cool with that. What process? What requirements? How long? Really curious- please xplain.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
We could go back to the old process (in effect until the 1920s IIRC).

Pass a physical.

Welcome to America.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Unfortunately we live in a much different time now. How can all the immigrants who want to come to America be properly screened for past indiscretions. The Country's infrastructure could not possibly support the additional mass of people which could be expected. New immigrants might have to live in camps and not get access to doctors or schools. This may have been a viable option 90 years ago, but not so much today.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Originally posted by rue:
I'm just interjecting that roughly 10% of the entire population of Mexico resides in the US. Does that seem weird to anyone else?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
I don't really buy any of this. I know it's the 'conventional wisdom', but it seems like a convenient rationalization for more selfish motives.

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We've all got our 'indiscretions'. Or our immigrant ancestors certainly did.

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Living in camps? Well, I guess that's their call. I doubt it would be that bad, but if they were willing to go through that to be a US citizen, well, citizens with that kind of enthusiasm would be a welcome addition, eh?

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My guess is that today's immigrants would have an easier time of than they did 90 years ago.

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Originally posted by rue:
Hey Soupcatcher,

The thing I was thinking about is not that there are 'so many' Mexicans in the US, but that they are allowed to vote in Mexican elections. I haven't thought it through as to what kind of vote motivations that might inspire, but I think it could put a spin on the voting.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
We could absorb the entire population of Mexico and the entire foreign born population of the United States would be a third of the total population.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
But what about China? They could ship three or four hundred million potential voters over here and not even miss them. Elect a bunch of commissars and proceed to amend the constitution out of existence and put us all on a diet of fishheads and rice while they ship our SUVs and plasma TVs to Beijing.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
In your opinion, what do you think these selfish motives are?

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In my neck of the woods, finding any type of housing is becoming increasingly difficult. Lower cost or affordable housing is almost non-existant. I guess you could 'suggest' certain areas of the Country where immigrants could settle based on socio-economic factors.

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My guess is that today's immigrants would have an easier time of than they did 90 years ago.

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Unfortunately a number of immigrants come to America because they are trying to escape the low standard of living in their Countries of origin. I'm not against immigration at all. I just think it should be somewhat controlled to ensure the newcomers both pay into the 'system' as well as reap the benefits of the 'system'.

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Whatever. Jobs aren't some limited resource. A job isn't something you own, it's something you do. No one 'takes' a job from someone else simply because they start working too.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
This is exactly where you're wrong. Under capitalism, jobs ARE limited. And furthermore, since they're limited by aggregate consumption, people coming in and willing to work for... fostering CHEAP jobs... creates a double whammy on the economy and sends the economy spiraling in another direction.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
Jobs aren't some limited resource. A job isn't something you own, it's something you do. No one 'takes' a job from someone else simply because they start working too.

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I believe it's still legal to build more houses.

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'system'. The vast majority of our immigrants have come here looking for opportunity, usually to escape a serious lack of it in their previous homes. It's part of what makes them motivated, hard working taxpayers.

If there's something about the 'system' that will break because people come here looking for freedom and opportunity, then there's something wrong with the 'system', not with the immigrants.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
So every person that comes across the Mexican border will immediately be fluent in English, know the Constitution and the laws of the land, walk into their newly built and paid for house, get a job and fill out their tax forms. Once again a great sentiment, but not realistic.

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C'mon, that holds up to pretty much no scrutiny. Performing valuable work isn't a zero-sum game

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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C'mon, that holds up to pretty much no scrutiny. Performing valuable work isn't a zero-sum game

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It is under capitalism....

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Work isn't a limited commodity that can be hoarded or denied others. I'm not getting how or why you're seeing it that way.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
...but that is not the kind of economy I would wish to create.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
Look at these sites & see just what other countries require for immigration before stating how WE should just let peolpe in.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
ALSO if you don't live in the US you don't get to have a DAMN opinion about how we should respond to our immigration problem. Deal with your own by letting in as many people as you want & see what the results are.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
By the way I challenge anyone to find an industrialized country with a stable economy that has a working open border policy like the one suggested for the US.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
My sister works as an "independent" (editor) but not by choice. In her view, it sucks, especially the "no benefits" part.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

* edited one more time to add: I want to specifically say that when I say immigrant in the preceding paragraph what I mean is the subset of immigrants who are not white. This is for the simple reason that I have not seen any argument from the "build a wall" folks that we have a European immigrant problem. For the most part, the complaint is about Mexicans. Since the only group that people seem to have a problem with are non-white, I will only address non-white immigration.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
It's one thing to state that you give no credence to the opinion of someone who doesn't live in the US on this particular topic. I could see the logic of that. It's another to state that people can't have an opinion on a topic. That's just silly.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
That's exactly the policy that the US had for more than half of our existence. We seemed to do alright.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
To satisfy my own curiousity, would you mind answering some questions?

What is the size of the community that you live in? (rural, town, etc - or just ballpark it by order of magnitude: hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, etc.).

What region of the US do you live in?

Do you live in a suburb that was established after 1900?

What are the demographics of your community?

Did the demographics of your community substantially change after 1890 and then remain consistently homogenized (wrt skin color) until only recently?

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I'm curious about the whole, "why now," with respect to the immigration debate on a national level.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
* edited to add: Just to expand on the last sentence. I grew up in Los Angeles - where the illegal immigration debate has been ongoing from well before I was born. So it's a surprise to me that, all of a sudden, the entire country is having it. Where were you all decades ago? One possible explanation I've read is that communities that previously had not had an immigrant population now do. That a number of predominantly white communities, and communities that became all-white by design in the 1890s (sundown cities) or suburbs that were created all-white by design after 1900 (sundown suburbs), were becoming less all-white. So I'm curious if you come from a sundown city or sundown suburb.


* edited one more time to add: I want to specifically say that when I say immigrant in the preceding paragraph what I mean is the subset of immigrants who are not white. This is for the simple reason that I have not seen any argument from the "build a wall" folks that we have a European immigrant problem. For the most part, the complaint is about Mexicans. Since the only group that people seem to have a problem with are non-white, I will only address non-white immigration. And also you will note that I have not asked what your skin color is because I feel the environment a person grows up in is more relevant to this discussion, especially if that environment is one which has historically embraced racism.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
Ok, I'll answer a few of your questions. Right now I live in the NW US, but grew up in AZ, CA, & TX. I lived in mostly mid to lower class areas of large cities. The immigration debate is nothing new to me.

...

This is kind of interesting because not once did I mention anything about race or what countries I was talking about.(I listed Canada & Mexcio as Exapmles of what our bordering countries require) You have managed to turn the whole thing into a matter of racism.

If yo're even going to broach the subject of race in immigration you have to include everyone that means "white" immigrants (which in the NW a good deal of the immigrants are "white"), but when I say immigrant I'm talking about anybody. I don't care who you are, where your from, what your doing, what your race, gender, sexual orientation, height, weight, or name is.

All I care about is that if you come here you do it legally or if you do immigrate illegally that you take steps te get legal citizenship as soon as possible, not several years later. Which is only the same thing most every other country requires. I'm not saying close the borders, but everybody has to jump through hoops to immigrate anywhere in the world. Why should it be any different to immigrate here?


I'm just tired of people stating open border policy opinions when they don't live here or don't have any experience with the situation. That's it.. That's all.. Nothing about race or ethnicity what so ever.

So I'm sorry If I offended anyone, but soupcatcher it's pretty fk'd for you to make me out as a racist.
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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Fair enough. My assumptions were wrong.

* edited to add: I should say, my assumptions probably do not apply to you.

And, guess what, race relations in the US are pretty fk'd up.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Fair enough. My assumptions were wrong.

* edited to add: I should say, my assumptions probably do not apply to you.

And, guess what, race relations in the US are pretty fk'd up.

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Your BlSht assumptions about me deffinitly don't apply.

And, guess what, I never said they weren't.
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Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Fair enough. My assumptions were wrong.

* edited to add: I should say, my assumptions probably do not apply to you.

And, guess what, race relations in the US are pretty fk'd up.

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Your BlSht assumptions about me deffinitly don't apply.

And, guess what, I never said they weren't.
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Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

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I'll repost what I added to the earlier post since we're cross posting.

As to me calling you a racist. I don't think I did that.

What I did was to ask about the environment you grew up in. Then I went on to speculate that attitudes about illegal immigration are shaped by the environment that people grow up in and described specific racist enviroments (sundown towns or suburbs) and that I would expect racist attitudes about immigrants to come from people who grew up in those racist environments.

By your responses, it appears that you probably did not grow up in a sundown town or suburb. So why would you think that I was directing the remainder of what I wrote as labelling you as racist? It wouldn't apply. You may or may not be a racist. I have no clue.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
I'm curious as to what country everybody here is from or what age. I see alot of comments that show some of the people here don't have enough direct experience (such as worked in the manufacturing, construction,or service fields) or haven't done proper research on what our (the U.S) neighboring countries require for people to move to them. I suggest these links:

MEXICO IMMIGRATION:

http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwork/immigration.htm#ImmPolicy

CANADA IMMIGRATION:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Look at these sites & see just what other countries require for immigration before stating how WE should just let peolpe in. ALSO if you don't live in the US you don't get to have a DAMN opinion about how we should respond to our immigration problem. Deal with your own by letting in as many people as you want & see what the results are. By the way I challenge anyone to find an industrialized country with a stable economy that has a working open border policy like the one suggested for the US.

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Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
It's not so much that you directly label me a racist it's that you went on to "speculate" about the environment of my upbringing. By your line of questioning you infer form the begining that my choice in opinion might be racially motivated. Why would you automatically assume that because someone is against illegal immigration that race is a factor in thier discision.

I still stand by my original post. Which had nothing to do with race at all.

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Small Pa. City Passes Law Against Illegals

By MARK SCOLFORO
The Associated Press
Thursday, July 13, 2006; 9:50 PM

HAZLETON, Pa. -- The City Council approved a law Thursday night designed to make this small city in northeastern Pennsylvania among the most hostile places in the U.S. for illegal immigrants to live or work.

The 4-to-1 vote came after nearly two hours of passionate debate. Opponents argued it was divisive and possibly illegal, but supporters said illegal immigrants' growing numbers have damaged the quality of life here.

"We must draw the line, and we are doing it tonight," Mayor Lou Barletta told a packed council chambers.

Barletta proposed the Illegal Immigration Relief Act last month as a response to what he said were Hazleton's problems with violent crime, crowded schools, hospital costs and the demand for services.

The ordinance would deny licenses to businesses that employ illegal immigrants, fine landlords $1,000 for each illegal immigrant discovered renting their properties, and require city documents to be in English only.

"The illegal citizens, I would recommend they leave," Barletta said after the meeting.

"What you see here tonight, really, is a city that wants to take back what America has given it," said the mayor, who said he wore a bulletproof vest to the meeting.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR20060713015
47.html

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Hey Soup I appreciate the rambling too.

I come from a family of immigrants. My parent's generation lived in a little community with it's own foreign-language newspaper, radio, church and store that sold traditional food. All of our holidays had a cultural twist. Some of my relatives never learned English well. I had a relationship with an Indian (from Mumbai) and a crush on a Costa Rican. I married an immigrant. I've known, worked with, studied with, and hired people who travel across the Mexican border and who have families and property on both sides. I've enjoyed the company of people from all over the world: India, China, Japan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, the Phillipines, Guatemala, the aforementioned Mexico, and elsewhere.

And yet I come down against illegal immigration in a very visceral way. I've tried puzzling this out. I don't think it's racist because I've just been too close to too many people of all skin colors. It's certainly not for lack of knowledge about "hispanics".

I think it's mainly a matter of the immigrants' class, which predicts other factors like education and economic role. We have a lot of immigrants here from all over the world- Taiwan and mainland China, Vietnam, Korea, and Mexico, and the Phillipines as well as a significant black population. The reaction to one group or another can be predicted by the wealth of that group: Taiwanese who immigrated voluntarily came from middle or upper-class families, while Vietnamese who came here catastrophically and with nothing are looked on less favorably. So maybe I'm not a racist so much as I am a... snob?

To solve the problem of racism, simply rubbing elbows with "the help" or with "kids at school" is not going to break stereotypes or promote understanding. The only thing that REALLY rattles people's brains is being confronted with "the other" when that person is in a position of POWER- your black male teacher, your Spanish-speaking surgeon, the female cop who's writing your ticket- because you are forced to acknowledge their authority and deal with it.

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