REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Jean Charles de Menezes

POSTED BY: GIXXER
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 05:39
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2141
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Monday, July 17, 2006 1:49 PM

GIXXER


Britain has had a fair few low moments in its history, but you would have to look far to find anything more craven and utterly shameful than today's statement that no-one was to blame.

...Or rather not quite no-one. Apparently, the Government and legislature are... (and I drop into quotes here, because if I can hardly believe it, you're not going to either)

"...satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute the Office of Commissioner of Police for an offence under sections 3 and 33 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 of failing to provide for the health, safety and welfare of Jean Charles de Menezes on July 22 2005."

Pardon my language, but What. The. Fuck?

Up until today, I reckoned that the spin-doctoring in the immediate aftermath ( describing how he was suspiciously, on a hot day, wearing a puffer jacket and had vaulted the ticket barriers in order to evade capture), was as foul as you could imagine. No, I tell a lie, the rape allegation that surfaced shortly afterwards stank even more.

This farcical prosecution outshines even those as undoubtably the most asinine and cynical insult ever offered to a bereaved family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes


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Monday, July 17, 2006 2:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I have to agree

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5186050.stm


Mind you I suspect if this incident happened in the US, there wouldn't even be this much of a prosecution..... they just would have said hey terrorist and tried to leave it at that.





" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Monday, July 17, 2006 3:22 PM

SIMONWHO


Yup. Anyone know what happened to that guy who was shot at the airport and the marshall claimed he said he had a bomb whereas all the passengers said he definitely didn't?

It's hard to prosecute the people who did the shooting because they weren't to know but those who gave the orders... they must face the consequences, especially in view of the cover-up/smear campaign that followed.

However I suspect Blair and Blair have a tit for tat deal going on with this and the cash for honours case.

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Monday, July 17, 2006 3:44 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yup. Anyone know what happened to that guy who was shot at the airport and the marshall claimed he said he had a bomb whereas all the passengers said he definitely didn't?

It's hard to prosecute the people who did the shooting because they weren't to know but those who gave the orders... they must face the consequences, especially in view of the cover-up/smear campaign that followed.

However I suspect Blair and Blair have a tit for tat deal going on with this and the cash for honours case.



Edit : Oh wait, that did happen already

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberto_Alpizar

" On May 23, 2006 the Miami-Dade state attorney's office determined that the two air marshals, who were never identified for national security reasons, were legally justified. "


The Nuremberg trials should have established for all time that " I was following orders " is not an excuse... shooter on up the chain of command should be looked at in both cases, and if their action are above the law in each country, they should be proscuted...

Mind especially in the US case, that simply can't happen behind closed doors, when all the eye wittness's come forward with a different story than the un-named government shooter.... and then with no public inquiry the whole thing gets labelled " justified "

Smells pretty bad to me




" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Monday, July 17, 2006 5:07 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


This crime happens every day in USSA. Copsters especially gun down people sitting or sleeping in parked cars at gas stations, for some bizarre reason. They also enjoy breaking into to the homes of innocent people and gunning them down, which is a game England is now learning to enjoy. The smell of Freedom...

How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!
-Joss the Boss, Firefly DVD, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Mal shoots cop in the head
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:12 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
This crime happens every day in USSA. Copsters especially gun down people sitting or sleeping in parked cars at gas stations, for some bizarre reason. They also enjoy breaking into to the homes of innocent people and gunning them down, which is a game England is now learning to enjoy. The smell of Freedom...

How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!
-Joss the Boss, Firefly DVD, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Mal shoots cop in the head
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org]

I guess you must be right pirate... such incidents must be common fare in the US...

nobody seems to want to talk about this, so you must right.



" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I think PN's referring to no-knock warrants, a lot of which are executed on the wrong address, or via an informants (often deliberate) misinformation - which results in a bunch of trigger happy, pumped up 'rocketjock' cops with an aggressive military mindset and way too much firepower kicking in some civvies door and going ballistic.

And yes, it happens a lot, often resulting in fatalities, and people and the press like to act like it's not a problem.

Cops as a general rule are pretty psychotic these days, and lack of proper oversight is a primary and direct contributor to the problem.

And if you think cops are decent people, you've never surreptiously watched one repeatedly taser a 'perp' while giggling to himself.

Extreme Authority + Zero Effective Oversight = BAD people, to me they're just another gang with colors, code of silence and the like, which we allow to lord over us because damned fools believe words on paper can protect them from the ugly realities of life.

That's why they get so pissed when someone actually defends themSELF - if society ever realizes what useless parasites they are, they won't be able to indulge in school bully jock boy behavior on a national scale anymore.

Unknown news does a good job of keeping track of some of the more horrific abuses, via (mostly) credible sources.
http://www.unknownnews.net/060715stinkybadges.html

So, in this case, Police/Sadism/Violence issues, he's not that far off the mark.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 4:42 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And if you think cops are decent people, you've never surreptiously watched one repeatedly taser a 'perp' while giggling to himself.



That's a pretty big brush that you're painting with.

Quote:


That's why they get so pissed when someone actually defends themSELF.



It's called resisting arrest.

Quote:


So, in this case, Police/Sadism/Violence issues, he's not that far off the mark.



I agree that there have been several WELL documented instances of police wrong-doing in the past. But to overlook the tremendous good done by police everyday (except traffic cops ) and say all police are gangsters IMHO is irresponsible.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:07 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Cops as a general rule are pretty psychotic these days, and lack of proper oversight is a primary and direct contributor to the problem.

And if you think cops are decent people, you've never surreptiously watched one repeatedly taser a 'perp' while giggling to himself.



Wow. And all Blacks are criminals, and all Jews ursurers, and all Irish happy drunks. Let's just stereotype everyone. All Muslims are terrorists, and all Americans are red-neck warmongers.

Having known several law enforcement officers, I can tell you that that I've seen no evidence that they'e any less diverse than the normal population.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:55 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Saying all cops are bad is going too far, mind you giving all cops the benefit of the doubt because of there position is equally wrong....

Look at the facts in the Florida case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberto_Alpizar

Did that not deserve more of a review... or was it whitewashed because of politics.

Note the AG never said why he felt it was justified ( no where I found anyway ) he just closed the case ???




" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Dude, I grew up in some pretty horrific south baltimore areas, and in all this time, 30 years and more, I've met ONE... count em, ONE, decent cop.

Joe Goode, if yer out there, keep on keepin on, maybe some of these creepers will learn from your example.

Lemme repeat something I've said here before in response to "big brush" comments there.

A policeMAN (or woman) is a person, sure - that's fine, they can be good, bad, indifferent, but *AS A FORCE*, *AS A SYSTEM*, "The Police" are slime.

When they put on that uniform and become part of the collective, they're representing something that has come to mean oppression, abuse of power and inexcusable wickedness, more often than not slid under the rug with naught more than a tap on the wrist.

I know some copfolk, and there exists an understanding between us that I will treat them as a human being only out of uniform and off duty, and as an instrument of oppression and destruction in uniform and on duty.

Hang out and deal with some policefolk for a while in person, at least to observe, if you can contrive it, and you'll see just how damn tribal they are, with a pretty severe "Us and Them" mentality, generally regarding anyone who is NOT a cop as a perp, just one they haven't caught yet - I refuse to blind myself to plain facts for the sake of political correctness concerning the middle east, and damned if I would do so on my own turf.

And just for you Big, the incident they got so very pissed over was some damn fool blatantly attempting to steal my vehicle in broad daylight, in my yard, about 8 feet from the doorstep, in front of about 20 witnesses, and when confronted, reached in his jacket in a manner that I considered threatening.

I responded by pointing my one-hander crossbow at him, be damned if I would let someone shoot me in such a fashion... he exited the scene, and returned later with the police who threatened to arrest me (gee, how convenient for the bastard if I had been, since he could come back and steal my wheels without me around to prevent it.. NIiiiice police work that, yes ?) only to be harshly rebuffed by about 20 very pissed off locals, and they decided to take off with naught more than threats.

Ran afoul of them again about three weeks later for bodily evicting a punk who kicked in the door to try to lift the TV cause he thought no one was home, and several times for reacting aggressively to attempts to rob me and in EVERY SINGLE CASE, they threatened ME, not the perp, with arrest, and got REAL snippy about the whole concept of self defense... now you tell me, after a decade of that crap, how I am gonna view the goons in blue, yes ?

I've personally witnessed enough horrific abuses by the BCPD to turn the stomach of even the most hardened and cynical person, these are the goons who even got caught breaking into the internal affairs dept office and trying to torch it, who arrested someone (quite recently, mind you) for simply asking directions, seem to get off on shaking down female motorists for amusement (got pictures of that one, and brought em to court for her lawyer, too) not to mention ordering their police dogs to attack suspects who have surrendered.

The very worst of which was Piazonni Johnny, a local pizza shop employer, who was accosted by a rookie cop while pumping gas into his car at the intersection of Rte2 and 648 - the cop was shaking and twitching, and white knuckling the trigger of his service weapon, which he had drawn for no reason we have ever determined to this very day, and Johnny panicked and ducked cause he thought he was about to killed - which caused the cop to panic and fire, and Johnny took off, at which time the cop emptied the clip at his fleeing back, striking him repeatedly and nearly killing him.

All documented fact - BCPD and the LA RAMPART guys have a lot in common.

I'm not flaming them individually as human beings, I am commenting on what a horror the "Police Force" in general has become - never in my entire life have I ever been able to depend on them to do their job, but I can always depend on them to interfere, threaten, harrass, intimidate, etc.

The problem stems from too much power, and a lack of anything even vaguely resembling substantial oversight, they've become a law unto themselves and they KNOW it, and can get away with damn near anything they please - this leads to corruption, it is inevitable, and until that problem is solved, they're just one more fekkin street gang to me, period.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:31 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Damn.... I see some of the same attitudes where I live, but haven't experienced anything like you have.

I remember a thread a while back where some were touting the US as the best country in the world... but then you here stories like this, and see how New Orleans went down, and look at a hundred other things...

Then you just have to shake your head and say " yeah right "






" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:36 AM

ESTEAD


I'm mostly a lurker, but I just can't sit this one out.

I thanked them on September 11, 2001, I'll thank them now, and I'll go on thanking them until the day I die.

Thank you NYPD. You are are heroes. All of you.

As with any population in the US, and any other country, there will be people in uniform that do not deserve to be there. But to condemn all police for the actions of a few is pathetic.

Right now I'm sad to be a Browncoat.

Eric

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Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA


The 'hero' thing doesn't fly either.

My word, imagine a trade where DOING YOUR JOB is cause for such celebration ?... gee, how far must the profession have fallen when those who merely do the job they're paid for are so celebrated.

They did a GOOD job, and i'll buy any member of the NYPD/NYFD a round, and lift it in rememberence of their fallen, sure - but they knew the responsibilities and risks of the job when they took it.

That's like folks who get all heartbroken like it's a damn tragedy when a soldier, who signed up to fight a war, knowing a war is on, dies in a prolonged firefight with a hostile force - golly gee whiz, didn't they tell you about that whole RISK OF DEATH thing in advance ?

I'm sorry, I cannot abide that whole 'heroism' concept of folks doin the job they signed up to do, and/or suffering the consequences, till no-knock raid fatalities are handled with more than "oh well, oops" by the same departments.

When they put on the long blue parade for folks they accidently or negligently killed, the same as they do for their own fallen - THEN and ONLY then, will I change my viewpoint on this.

I do my job, you don't see folk touting about the heroism of ordinary folk who risk as much or more in the daily course of their work, do you ?

A construction worker is far more likely to suffer fatality or injury on the job as a law enforcement officer - you don't see them getting commendations and medals for building a house, do you ?

*shakes head*

I condemn them not for the actions of a few, not as individuals, but on their behavior as a force, a collective, and a social impact that's brought little but misery over the course of a hundred years.

Tell me, what's YOUR reaction to a cop, emotionally, when he points at you and says "HEY, YOU, STOP!" and advances toward you ?

Don't tell me, look into your heart, your own feelings, and be 100% honest, what DO you feel at that point........
and why ?

And you think about that good and hard, for a nice long time.

-Frem

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Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Stumbled across an extremely good resource in reference to militarized behavior and no-knock raids, and the consquences, with suggestions for policy reform.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

For those interested in the topic, Balko's whitepaper on the subject is extremely good, massively sourced, and accurate in every respect possible.

The interactive map included on the page is very telling, as well.

The best way to "police" an area is with beat cops, the cops get to see the locals as human beings instead of perps, and the locals get to see the cop as a human being instead of an invader/outsider/aggressor - and consequence of this cooperation, crime goes down.

Joe Goode paid his dues in shoe leather, rather than lead, and is all the BETTER cop for that - crime *prevention* is better than crime *prosecution* any day of the week.

-Frem

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Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:22 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The best way to "police" an area is with beat cops, the cops get to see the locals as human beings instead of perps, and the locals get to see the cop as a human being instead of an invader/outsider/aggressor - and consequence of this cooperation, crime goes down.


Completely agree. Police officers commuting into the community they patrol and rarely leaving their patrol cars is a recipe for unpleasantness. I was encouraged after reading this article late last year on the LAPD's new tactic of having recruits walk a beat: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1118/p01s03-ussc.html

If the only interaction between police and the public is aggressive then both sides will tend to go bunker mentality.

* edited to make one sentence more clear

* edited to actually excerpt from the article:
Quote:

excerpted from http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1118/p01s03-ussc.html
By pushing officers out of squad cars and onto sidewalks, many police departments have tried to reestablish ties to their communities. What's new about the LAPD's move, formally announced last week, is that it's starting from the bottom up: training new recruits to walk the beat.

The innocuous-sounding Community Interaction Program (CIP) - 50 graduate-ready recruits at a time who fan out across the city's most pedestrian-heavy crime areas - is a new twist on an old idea, courtesy of one of America's most innovative police chiefs. The story behind it clarifies, experts say, why many of law enforcement's own brass feel police often go awry.
...
That's exactly what Ms. Giordano and her two fellow trainees, Conor Sever and Joseph Romo are doing. As three of 50 in the program's second class of trainees, they spend four weeks of eight-hour shifts walking Hollywood Boulevard, getting to know residents and business owners - and making arrests, if necessary.
...
In the handful of precincts where the LAPD is trying CIP, daytime crime - petty theft, burglary, car theft, assault - in the target downtown and Hollywood areas has plummeted to nearly zero, according to Hollywood precinct Captain Michael Moriarty.

Many residents and business owners on Hollywood Boulevard are embracing the new program.

"I wish they had been doing this years ago," says lifetime Hollywood resident Trent McCoy. "Having a show of police on the streets really lowers the anxiety," he says.


There's more to the article and I recommend reading it in it's entirety.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 11:30 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Didn't the London cops get their "terrorism training" in Israel? Shooting unarmed people in the head is apparently standard operating procedure, when dealing with suspected suicide bombers, even when the innocent person is nekked.



PS: Israeli Jews are the most-hateful anti-Semites on the planet:

Quote:


"A 'Semite' is any person living in that area, including Arabs (and Christians). It's time we start talking about 'The Other AntiSemitism'. A Semite is not a Jew living in America or Europe."
-Ralph Nader (Arab-American from Lebannon), Independnet Reform Party presidential candidate in 2004, ex-Green Party presidential candidate in 2000, Arab-American Business conference, C-SPAN, 2003


Semite.
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and ARABS - b : a descendant of these peoples - 2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.
-Merriam Webster Dictionary

"From the time of King Solomon to our very days the Holy Land was either united with Trans-Jordan or attached to Syria or Turkey. Western Palestine was never a single and independent entity and certainly a part of that cannot possibly constitute an independent state, as envisaged in the various plans that are discussed from time to time. However, the basic reason for our opposition to an Independent Jewish state as that in prevailing circumstances the officially recognised representation of the Jewish people does not consider the authority of the Holy Law as binding in the public affairs of the Jewish people, and it is contrary to the wishes of G-d to create a Jewish State."
-Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, JewsAgainstZionism.com, Statement to United Nations Corporation Special Committee on Palestine 1947


So I'm a Semite-lover.

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:39 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Menezes was an Ilegal Criminal Alien.
Are'nt you happy that we shot him?
If he was in Tenesee you'd be offering to shoot him yourself with HMG, self defence, justifiable homicide etc.
Make your mind up Wanker.

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