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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I don't know enough about Iraq to say whether or not splitting the country would work. From some of what I've read I've gotten the opinion that neither Sunni or Shiite are homogenous categories.

Some of the big questions in my mind are: do we want permanent military bases in Iraq? Does the Administration have a plan beyond "staying the course?" Will we make substantive changes before 2009?

I think the majority of Americans would be sympathetic to the Murtha plan if it was ever given an accurate airing (based on polling data - http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm ). However, it doesn't matter what the majority of Americans think. What matters is what this Administration decides because, let's face it, Congress hasn't shown any inclination to challenge the President.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Worked with Germany...sort of...

No history credentials Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Penguin:
I agree completely that there will be a civil war as soon as we leave. There may even be one while we're there. Then what do we do? Who's side do we back?

We were idiots to invade (yes, invade) a country and think we could bring it democracy. Hell, democracy barely works here in the US with only 300+ years of history. How arrogant of us to believe that a county with thousands of years of history and thousands of years of feuding factions could be made to accept democracy!

Stupidity starts at the top...

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Originally posted by kaneman:



From what I read permanent bases is not an option...I think we have already stated we will leave..Question becomes when?

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by kaneman:



From what I read permanent bases is not an option...I think we have already stated we will leave..Question becomes when?

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Not so

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0930/p17s02-cogn.html

They won't come out and say it for political reasons, but anything put out by the " think tanks " who really come out with much of policy.... it will happen


I read somewhere that Iraqi government... well the appointed by the US Iraqi government had already signed a deal to that effect. Historicly once your in, it takes much effort to get rid of you... the Japanese recently paid you off to relocate some bases, and Cuba... think they really want you there ?




" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12

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Originally posted by kaneman:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by kaneman:



From what I read permanent bases is not an option...I think we have already stated we will leave..Question becomes when?

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Not so

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0930/p17s02-cogn.html

They won't come out and say it for political reasons, but anything put out by the " think tanks " who really come out with much of policy.... it will happen


I read somewhere that Iraqi government... well the appointed by the US Iraqi government had already signed a deal to that effect. Historicly once your in, it takes much effort to get rid of you... the Japanese recently paid you off to relocate some bases, and Cuba... think they really want you there ?




" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12

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Hey stop with the "you you you" stuff. Yes it is true when America makes a deal with a country it holds that country to it. Lose your standing army? Okanowa. Must I go on? Cuba..I'm in...South Korea?..I'm in...Germany,England,Francussy,Spain,Canada etc!!!....I'm in...Iraq? don't think I should be in.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The point I'm trying to make is that what do the Japenese have to do to get you to leave.... start up the war again ?

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The point I'm trying to make is that what do the Japenese have to do to get you to leave.... start up the war again ?

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Japan does not want us to leave, neither does South Korea. Our troops are a check on Chinese and North Korean aggression.

If we left Japan would be forced to invest tens of billions in a military buildup to secure its interests and security. To do otherwise would invite aggressive militaristic neighbors to fill the vaccum.

H

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These men and women clearly have no idea why they are there. They all felt like they are just riding around waiting to get blown up. They also believe that Iraq will have a civil war the moment we leave. If this the case, shouldn't we just withdraw now?

One soldier replied, when asked about morale, " It's like taking what you hate most about your job..doing it five hours a day, in 120 degree heat, getting shot at doing so, and sand in your underwear to boot...than ask yourself about morale!...All for what? we don't know..none of us gives a (expletive - expletive) whether or not Iraq is a democracy. So one side has to win. Be it Shiite, be it Sunni. I don't care. It's apparent, these people have made it obvious they can't live in unity."

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"Frag" is a term from the Vietnam War, most commonly meaning to assassinate an unpopular member of one's own fighting unit by dropping a fragmentation grenade into the victim's tent at night. A hand grenade was used because it would not leave any fingerprints, and because a ballistics test could not be done (as it could to match a bullet with a firearm). A fragging victim could also be killed by intentional friendly fire during combat. In either case, the death would be blamed on the enemy, and, due to the dead man's unpopularity, no one would contradict the cover story. .... During the Vietnam War, fragging was surprisingly common. At least 600 American officers were murdered by their own troops in documented cases, and as many as 1,400 other officers' deaths could not be explained[1]. As many as 25% of all officer casualties during the war were due to fragging.

During the Iraq War, there have been two instances of fragging: the murders of Captain Phillip Esposito and Lt. Louis Allen by Staff Sgt. Alberto Martinez and the murder of two officers in Kuwait by Hasan Akbar.

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