Crop Circles by misbehaven

I have no idea. But I am extremely intrigued. Without further information, I lean towards manmade. I don't know that any of them are "fake"--I mean, they are all real and there to be photographed. I don't think being manmade makes them any less remarkable really. Some of these formations are spectacular works of art.

What I am reading is that the formations themselves often register electrostatic charges or anomalies that gradually dissipate within 6 weeks. It suggests some sort of electromagnetic process was involved. I am looking for further info on this.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, August 21, 2006 2:51 PM

SOUPCATCHER

I personally have no idea.

However, I am finding this site fascinating (I still haven't decided if it is legit or not): http://www.circlemakers.org/index.html

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:06 PM

That's an interesting site. I know there were a couple of Brits who claimed to have started this some years ago. Apparently, they were only using a board with strings tied to each end. But I also saw a program on either the History channel or the Discovery channel (I don't remember which one) where someone using a camera equipped with night-vision documented a crop circle actually being formed. There were a couple of spherical lights that passed over a field, and within minutes the design appeared. According to the program the footage was authentic, and wasn't sped up in any way. The video can probably be seen on the internet, if you're inclined to search for it long enough.

They're amazing designs whether they're manmade or not, especially the more recent ones. They seem to be getting larger and more complex.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What I am reading is that the formations themselves often register electrostatic charges or anomalies that gradually dissipate within 6 weeks. It suggests some sort of electromagnetic process was involved. I am looking for further info on this.

This is a characteristic of some crop circles that has been used by some to allege a supernatural or extraterrestrial origin. MIT students claim to have duplicated this feature by using a make shift flame flower or explosive charge to disperse ~50 micron diameter magnetized iron particles. Whether their results actually produce the desired effect, I’m not sure. At least one person, a Nancy Talbott, disagrees. However, I’m really very skeptical of the whole bunch, MIT and BLT. The MIT students were largely undergraduates. And BLT Research’s mission statement is that their “primary focus is crop circle research.” Crop circle research?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Crop circle research?

Don't laugh.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know that any of them are "fake"--I mean, they are all real and there to be photographed.

I should probably clarify "fake and genuine." According to crop circle researchers, "fake" crop circles are those that can definitely be proven to be manmade, and "genuine" crop circles are those formed with an indeterminable means, which all have similar characteristics.

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Crop circle research?

Hey Irish,

Glad you joined us.

Crop circle researchers? Who knew, huh? I want one of those jobs. I propose assembling a research team to perform a comprehensive, multiple year study. Travel to exotic places around the world, meet new and interesting people, and receive government funding for research (MIT?).

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
According to crop circle researchers, "fake" crop circles are those that can definitely be proven to be manmade, and "genuine" crop circles are those formed with an indeterminable means, which all have similar characteristics.

I am familiar with that terminology. However, I take exception to it. It assumes that there are formations made with an intent to deceive, and formations that aren't. If we don't know who made them, how they were made, and why they were made, how can we assume that some were meant to deceive and others aren't? I would prefer different language to make the distinction, though I am not yet sure what.

I should have said that I object to the use of the word "fake."

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Hey Irish,

Glad you joined us. Crop circle researchers? Who knew, huh? I want one of those jobs. I propose assembling a research team to perform a comprehensive, multiple year study. Travel to exotic places around the world, meet new and interesting people, and receive government funding for research (MIT?).

I already do most of that. It's not all it's cracked up to be. I suggest defining a new type of crop circle: the amorphous non-agrarian crop circle. That way I can research it from the comfort of my own front porch and when my neighbors complain about the patchy deadness of my lawn I can assure them it is for scientific posterity.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am familiar with that terminology. However, I take exception to it. It assumes that there are formations made with an intent to deceive, and formations that aren't. If we don't know who made them, how they were made, and why they were made, how can we assume that some were meant to deceive and others aren't? I would prefer different language to make the distinction, though I am not yet sure what.

I should have said that I object to the use of the word "fake."

I see your point, and I agree. The terminology is problematic, because the research is inconclusive and makes certain assumptions; however, they're probably finding it difficult to define properly as well.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:11 PM

SERGEANTX

If you'll all permit a dip into somewhat bigoted cynicism, this topic highlights something I've been noticing more and more of. What I've noticed is that people will believe any damned thing!. And for many of them, once they believe, no amount of rational discourse will dissuade them. As long as there's a *chance* that magic is real, they'll cling to every scrap of evidence that 'confirms' it. Unfortunately a desperate desire for our fantasies to be real isn't enough to make them so.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I already do most of that. It's not all it's cracked up to be. I suggest defining a new type of crop circle: the amorphous non-agrarian crop circle. That way I can research it from the comfort of my own front porch and when my neighbors complain about the patchy deadness of my lawn I can assure them it is for scientific posterity.

Shiny! If we're all just going to set on your front porch to study this phenomenon (notice I'm inviting myself and others), then I think we're going to need copious amounts of alcohol (have to stay hydrated), Hawaiian shirts, grapefruit (for vitamin C), and fly-swaters. All in the interest of science, of course.

"It never got weird enough for me." Hunter S. Thompson

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:16 PM

I guess some people just need to believe in something greater than themselves, so why not magic or aliens? It's as good a thing as any.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:31 PM

Cool. It’ll be like one of those Corona commercials, except there’s no beach or palm trees, and no Corona, that stuff’s nasty.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
What I've noticed is that people will believe any damned thing!.

There is a difference between believing in and being open to. I am open to just about any damn thing, but I generally hold out for evidence before endorsing a position. If I believe in something, such as God, I choose a belief for philosophical reasons. Otherwise, as a scientist, I try to avoid "believing in" things. Including positions claimed by scientists.

However, just being open to any damn thing often results in accusations of gullibility, double standards, and other uncomplimentary comments. Oh the latest was something to the effect that I have an anti-establishment compulsion. Shrug.

So I am curious, what exactly annoys you? Is it that some people accept knowledge beyond empiricism and rationalism? Or simply that they subscribe to ideas that you find utterly ridiculous? Dogmatism? No offense meant. I have a lot of respect for the rational and intelligent comments you have made, and was just wondering, what are you really peeved by?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
So, what are your thoughts? Is it E.T.'s, government weapons testing, pranksters with boards and garden rollers, or something altogether different?

Not ET's, for certain. Weapons testing ? My guess is the latter - pranksters w/ boards and garden rollers.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
....and no Corona, that stuff’s nasty.

You mean the smell of dead skunk doesn't appeal to you? I'll tell you what. I'll bring some absinthe, King of Spirits Gold, that way we might actually see something. And fly-swaters for the bats. I'll leave the rest to you.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. "
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not ET's, for certain.

Just curious, but why for certain?

It never got weird enough for me. -Hunter S. Thompson

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:47 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
So I am curious, what exactly annoys you? Is it that some people accept knowledge beyond empiricism and rationalism? Or simply that they subscribe to ideas that you find utterly ridiculous? Dogmatism? No offense meant. I have a lot of respect for the rational and intelligent comments you have made, and was just wondering, what are you really peeved by?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Ahh... your insight is impressive. It's kind of complicated, but I'm working for a company that, in almost every way, is a really cool place to work. But at the heart of the CEO's vision for the company is a bunch of fruity-oaty 'transpersonal philosophy' models. He's structured the entire hierarchy of the company based on a system of 'levels' of development that assumes the preeminence of mysticism and 'higher' states of consciousness. (ie confirms his own new-age religious convictions)

It's not required that we overtly subscribe to this belief system, but the few people who've dared to mention that, perhaps, the emperor wears no clothes, have found themselves soon after looking for work. It's not the worst kind of oppression or anything like that, but the mandatory delusion wears on a person.

Anyway, in general I'm content to let people believe in whatever entertains them, but lately I've been more tempted to try to 'wake people up' a little. A pretty pointless endeavor I admit.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:50 PM

Quote:
He's structured the entire hierarchy of the company based on a system of 'levels' of development that assumes the preeminence of mysticism and 'higher' states of consciousness. (ie confirms his own new-age religious convictions)...lately I've been more tempted to try to 'wake people up' a little.

Geez, Sarge. I feel for ya. I'd be peeved too. If I had to put up with someone else's delusion at work, I would probably find unempirical musings less than entertaining as well.

I guess I should restate that I'm open to any damn thing, until someone tries to force it down my throat. Sets off my rebel instincts.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not ET's, for certain.

Just curious, but why for certain?

It never got weird enough for me. -Hunter S. Thompson

I come from the Carl Sagan view of the Cosmos when it comes to ET's. Why would any 'intelligent' being spend so much time, energy and effort to travel to a backwards planet to swirl symbols in crops? Sending messages via radio makes far more sense.

I tend to think that there's life out there, somewhere. The Drake Equation and all that, ya know. But the odds of any intelligent life existing at THIS TIME and close enough for them to travel here , with in the few decades we've been able to travel in space and harness nuclear power, seems a bit far fetched.

Have one of the aliens drop his space wallet, or a space part fall off his ship, THEN I'll buy into the idea we're being visited.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:31 AM

DREAMTROVE

Mice with too much time on their hands?

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I come from the Carl Sagan view of the Cosmos when it comes to ET's. Why would any 'intelligent' being spend so much time, energy and effort to travel to a backwards planet to swirl symbols in crops? Sending messages via radio makes far more sense.

I tend to think that there's life out there, somewhere. The Drake Equation and all that, ya know. But the odds of any intelligent life existing at THIS TIME and close enough for them to travel here , with in the few decades we've been able to travel in space and harness nuclear power, seems a bit far fetched.

Have one of the aliens drop his space wallet, or a space part fall off his ship, THEN I'll buy into the idea we're being visited.

I tend to be skeptical of the whole alien thing myself, but there does seem to be a good deal of credible evidence. Also, I think the Drake Equation makes a good case for extraterrestrial life, and if even one photo, video, declassified report, etc. is actually true, then we're really not alone.

As for the crop circles, I tend agree with you, but I'm not sure I could say "for certain." However, it's rather difficult to imagine that even if aliens exist, they would be doodling in our crops. It just seems like a rather cryptic and indirect means of communication to me. Why not just land on the White House lawn or something? Anyway, I hope there's intelligent life out there somewhere, because (to quote Monty Python) "there's bugger all down here on Earth."

"It never got weird enough for me."
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:39 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'd ike to find out if crop circles occur in areas where food is scarce like Sub-Saharan Africa or China. But not some white farmer's land in S Africa for example, but in a locale where every bit of food is important.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'd ike to find out if crop circles occur in areas where food is scarce like Sub-Saharan Africa ord China. But not some white farmer's land in S Africa for example, but in a locale where every bit of food is important.

I was listening to Coast to Coast when they were interviewing a crop circle researcher, and the host, Art Bell, asked him this very question. Apparently, they have been found in Africa, and a couple, which appear to be genuine, have even been found in the snow (I forget where). It seems where crops are lacking, the designs appear pressed roughly an inch or so into the desert floor or snow. He went on to say that these not only bear the standard electromagnetic signatures, they also show no signs of footprints or mechanical devices typically seen in fake circles.

Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:56 PM

For anyone interested, the Coast to Coast guest's name is Freddy Silva, and the website is www.cropcirclesecrets.org. If you sign up for Streamlink on Coast to Coast, you can download mp3 or stream the entire broadcast. Their address is www.coasttocoastam.com The interview is worth a listen.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
I tend to be skeptical of the whole alien thing myself, but there does seem to be a good deal of credible evidence. Also, I think the Drake Equation makes a good case for extraterrestrial life, and if even one photo, video, declassified report, etc. is actually true, then we're really not alone.

The problem with the Drake Equation is the Drake Equation. The same astronomical enormity that makes it appear unlikely that intelligent life doesn’t exist somewhere also makes it just as unlikely that we will ever encounter them.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:04 PM

Yep. That's problematic alright. They're either not there, or so far away we'll never be able to contact them.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:39 AM

(Last paragraph edited for clarity)

Just a note to Rue, and now Signy, and anyone else who thinks crop circles kill the grain. One of the characteristics of an authentic crop circle is that the plants are not harmed. They're clearly not mashed down with boards and in fact, though I can not verify this from personal experience, there is evidence that the grain within the circles grows taller and germinates more quickly than the surrounding plants.

Also there is the phenomenon of layering which I've seen that does not support the mashed down by mexicans theory.

If you only know crop circles from large arial photos on the web, you have no reason to think they are anything but pranks, I understand. But look a little deeper into the phenomenon and they are truly...what's the technical term? Ah yes: weird-ass.

Can anyone come up with anything resembling a reason for man-made crop circles to exist at all? I'm curious. People will say it's "art" but the hundreds (if not thousands) of artists it would have taken over the years to make these things would all have to be so wealthy that the temptation to go public and capitalize on their remarkable gifts never overcame their perverse will to work in silent anonymity all their lives, to say nothing of all the farmers and passers-by they'd be paying off to keep quiet; or for that matter, airfare, paying the mexicans, paying off local news agencies--and all for what? Some ooky-spooky mysterious symbols on the ground that they can never tell anyone they're responsible for?

Sergeant X suggested in the other thread that my b.s. meter must be "completely broken," but what about all the rest of your b.s. meters? Is the conspiracy required for the man-made theory acceptible to any of you?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:22 AM

Quote:
Sergeant X suggested in the other thread that my b.s. meter must be "completely broken," but what about all the rest of you?

I don't know enough about your views on crop circles to know where your bs meter registers. You've asked some good questions. But I haven't heard any alternative explanations.

What do YOU think makes these formations? What explanation do you favor?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Can anyone come up with anything resembling a reason for man-made crop circles to exist at all?

Well, at the risk of being ridiculed, I'll venture a notion. Of course, this is TOTAL speculation.

I am very intrigued by the electromagnetic signatures of the formations. I think that is a significant clue on how they were made. I've been entertaining the conjecture that some sort of hyperdimensional travel is involved.

Imagine if people have invented a time travel device in the future. They wanted to travel all over the world, all over our history. What if, as they left our time and space, they left a footprint. Maybe that print varies with the vehicle, or varies with their next destination, or their former destination. Maybe they try to do it in the middle of the oceans most times, but sometimes they have to "land" their vehicle on solid ground, leaving such formations. What this idea explains is the long history and extensive global coverage of these formations. What it doesn't explain is why we've never seen such a vehicle etc. It is weak in that it isn't falsifiable--there is no way to prove the idea right or wrong. So it is just a fantasy.

But hey, you asked.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't know enough about your views on crop circles to know where your bs meter registers. You've asked some good questions. But I haven't heard any alternative explanations.

What do YOU think makes these formations? What explanation do you favor?

Ach! I didn't mean the question that way. Curse your diabolically uninflected English language! I wasn't making a sad grandstanding plea for support--yuck. I'm gonna have to edit that last sentence of my post before everyone thinks I'm a total loser!

I was asking if anyone had an intact b.s. meter when it came to the implausibility of the "man-made" theory. If crop circles are man-made, then we're talking about a major multi-generational conspiracy that has no apparent pay-off for anyone involved, while everyone who would be involved would stand to gain both fame and monetary reward for "going public."

P.S.: my own best guess as to the cause or source of the crop circle phenomenon is forthcoming and lengthy. Thanks for your interest, CTS.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:37 AM

DREAMTROVE

Here are some other theories:

Gophers with too much time on their paws.
Ants with too much time on their antennae.
Really ambitious travelling mexicans.

Another telling point is if anyone can find a genuine pre-ufo crazy reference to them.

I strongly suspect this is a major prank, but it might be a terrestrial life form of some sort, I doubt it, but it's possible.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What it doesn't explain is why we've never seen such a vehicle etc. It is weak in that it isn't falsifiable--there is no way to prove the idea right or wrong.

Actually, a lot of people over the years have kept watch, just as folks have done with every "paranormal" phenomenon from Nessy to Santa Clause coming down the chimney (guilty).

Trouble is, what such people see registers even higher on the wacko-meter than the crop circles themselves.

Many, many people who claim to have witnessed the formation of the crop circles have seen floating lights of varying sizes moving over the fields. I've seen footage of such lights. Sure they could be faked, I suppose, but seriously: what the hell for?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, September 1, 2006 7:53 AM