There is a God, or There is no god the next generation by citizen

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There is a God, or There is no god the next generation

POSTED BY: CITIZEN
UPDATED: Thursday, August 24, 2006 16:57
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VIEWED: 10104
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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 1:02 PM

Citizen- point taken... i suppose i should keep in mind that it is merely a book to some

hey, speakin gof ETs, if you guys just want an alternative opinion about aliens, ufos and crops circles, this is one of the better explanations ive come across(granted im biased)

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/mars.html

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:15 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey CTS, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this necessarily unsatisfying subject. I'm very interested in what you say about crop circles 'cause your comments seem to reflect a variation on the bad reasoning that I was trying to describe. I don't mean to insult you at all. I'm really trying to understand why people do this, and, in fact, I think you're one of the more reasonable and free-thinking folks on this board, so I'm hoping you can help me out.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the human desire/need for comfort--our preference for the "knowable" and the familiar over the "unknowable" and the unacountable--is the number one impediment to an authentic encounter with reality.

People really don't like loose ends. They don't like them so much that they will force conclusions right and left, to fend them off. Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if a spokesperson for the White House told us back in 2001, "We have no way of determining what caused the towers to fall, we have several possibilities but none of them take all the evidence into account?"

The first thing you say on the subject of crop circles strikes me as the truest and I have to wonder why you want/need to move away from it later on in your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
However, with crop circles, the mystery is so extensive (in my view) that all explanations I have heard seem to involve more or less the same amount of improbability.

This is the main thing that hits me whenever I contemplate the phenomenon: the vastness of the mystery and the inadequacy of the explanations given. What makes the mystery vast is that you have these huge undeniable things appearing year after year with no reasonable explanation at all. Sure, people have made facsimilies, but the patterns we know to be man-made have a whole crowd of characteristics that distinguish them from authentic crop circles.

As I've said before, the evidence, if it is not part of an elaborate and conspiratorially deliberate hoax--including the paying off of countless farmers all over the world and every last passer-by who ever witnessed the things being constructed over the course of 30 years--makes it pretty clear to me that these things could not be man-made in any conventional sense.

Of course humans are perfectly capable of mashing down wheat into patterns, but to do so in total darkness, in under an hour, soundlessly and without a trace, with the breathtaking level of precision you'll see if you have the good fortune to visit one, and without harming the plants in any way--is simply not possible outside of some science-fiction top secret black-ops scenario. Why we must leap therefore to "E.T.'s" I don't understand at all. What is the obsession with pinning it on someone?

Even if people have been doing it somehow, all these years, you gotta wonder why? Human beings tend to have at least personally satisfactory reasons for what they do. What possible reason could anyone have for participating in this cross-generational conspiracy?

The only thing that makes humans a "probable" candidate is their ready availability. If all candidates are totally inadequate for one reason or another, what good does it do anyone to take the least totally inadequate candidate and say, "It was prolly that one?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:36 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that the human desire/need for comfort--our preference for the "knowable" and the familiar over the "unknowable" and the unacountable--is the number one impediment to an authentic encounter with reality.

People really don't like loose ends. They don't like them so much that they will force conclusions right and left, to fend them off. Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if a spokesperson for the White House told us back in 2001, "We have no way of determining what caused the towers to fall, we have several possibilities but none of them take all the evidence into account?"

This is especially fascinating to me because I've been working through similar logic to come to a completely different conclusion. Of course I'm starting with a different question, namely "Why are people so quick to jump to supernatural explanations for phenomena we don't understand?"

Your observation points to an answer. People don't like loose ends. We're also somewhat lazy. It's far easier, when looking at the world and realizing that we have no way of knowing for sure how it started, how we started, to make up a story. So we create explanatory myths featuring improbable, but dramatically satisfying stories that make some kind of sense out of our infinitely complicated world. Our fantasy becomes our reality because it gives us comfort and a shortcut around the hard work of understanding what is really going on.

It so tempting to reach for shortcuts when faced with the daunting task of untangling reality. We imagine that we can cheat death by religious transcendence. We imagine we can find deep understanding of reality by ascending to higher states of consciousness - and why not? It's a lot more fun than a lifetime of study and hard work. But the disappointing fact is that reality doesn't seem willing to bend to our fantasies, otherwise we'd be watching the fifth season of Firefly.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:52 AM

ANTIMASON

our experience of reality is limited to earth, the 3rd dimension, and linear time; i believe that we know very little in relation to the vastness of the universe, and to claim to know all the intricate workings of everything based off of our current knowledge is naive and shortsighted, no?

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:53 AM

KIZZIECSTARS

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

you have to deny a greater amount of information to be an athiest, than you do to be a creationist

i beg to differ. there are many, many theories and mathematical models to show that it is possible that the universe was not created, but always existed.

besides which, science does not deny the existance of a supernatural power. it's not something that is provable, so why try?

i cant do anything about something that is outwith the universe. if religion is to be believed and not proved then that something cannot affect me, since by affecting me, that would be peoof of it's existance. i.e. the babel fish argument.

so this god guy? doesn't have any bearing on anything anyone does.

i want a pet dalek!
Kizzie
XxX

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:23 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that the human desire/need for comfort--our preference for the "knowable" and the familiar over the "unknowable" and the unacountable--is the number one impediment to an authentic encounter with reality. . . .People really don't like loose ends.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
This is especially fascinating to me because I've been working through similar logic to come to a completely different conclusion. Of course I'm starting with a different question, namely "Why are people so quick to jump to supernatural explanations for phenomena we don't understand?"

You both make good points and ask good questions. Knowledge is power. It makes us feel like either we're in control, or we know who's in control. Lack of knowledge is a very helpless and therefore terrifying position. Some people need to believe in supernatural powers that with enough time, will reveal the mysteries of the universe. Some people need to believe in a science that with enough time, will reveal the mysteries of the universe.

Personally, I am being increasingly persuaded that we all believe what we NEED to believe, emotionally and spiritually; and that belief has nothing to do with reason and evidence, as much as we like to think it does. A la Jaynestown. It really didn't matter to the mudders that Jayne didn't give a crap about them; they NEEDED to believe someone did, and despite all evidence to the contrary, they will continue to believe someone does. Everytime you see the word "believe"--it means faith in something someone can't see, but needs and wants to see.

I've been intrigued that people rarely change their views, even if given undisputed evidence to the contrary. Something in their minds, either consciously or unconsciously, skips past it just like the mudders in Jaynestown. It's a sort of denial that happens with both the paranormal/mystical and the empirical/rational crowd. Advertisers (professional view-changers) have long known that appealing to the cortex doesn't change minds--they appeal to one's emotions. Kinda supports that the seat of the belief system is not where we think it is (but maybe where we feel it is).

PBS Frontline had a show on advertising called The Persuaders. They featured a former child psychiatrist named Rapaille who researches how to market products for corporations. He looks for a primeval, instinctual "code" that would connect people at an unconscious gut level to the product. He appeals to what he calls the "logic of emotion," and has been so successful and finding these codes that he gets paid millions of dollars to get the codes for a single product.

Here's an excerpt from his interview:

Quote:
Once you understand the code, you understand why people do what they do. For example, the code for the French -- once you understand the code, you may understand why [French president Jacques] Chirac reacted this way to Bush, because for the French, the code is "to think." That's it: to think. "I think, therefore I am" -- not "I do," "I think." The French believe [that they are] the only thinkers of the world and that they think for the rest of the world. They believe that Americans never think; they just do things without knowing why. And so in this situation, where Bush say[s], "Let's do it," the French say, "No, wait, think; we need to think."

Now, what you have to understand about the French culture is "to think" is enough. You don't need to do anything with your thinking. The French philosopher would say, "I think, therefore I am," where in America you have Nextel, this campaign, fantastic, "I do, therefore I am," not "I think." I think they're right on target with the American code.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/interviews/ra
paille.html

So why are people so quick to jump to supernatural or rational explanations for things they don't understand? I think it is because they have an emotional/instinctual need to go for one or the other, probably based on early "imprinting" as Rapaille would say, personal experiences and values. To me, it is an emotional preference, and I don't know that one is superior to the other.

Or maybe this is too much psychobabble.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:43 AM

DREAMTROVE

Antimason.

I don't think truth seeking is based on proof. I think it's based on balance. If the probabilities are leaning sharply one way, then it's okay to keep the other way in mind, but I wouldn't base my life on it.

Quote:
christians have no religion if Jesus' wasnt ressurected from the dead

Is this true? This seems like an absurd extreme. I think that if jesus had a message, that message is a religion to anyone who believes in it. To ask a prophet to then be resurrected after he dies in order for his message to be valid is setting the bar amazingly high.

Here's a sobering thought:

More people follow Osama Bin Laden today, than followed Jesus Christ during his lifetime.

Here's a *more* sobering thought:

More people follow Osama Bin Laden today, than follow Jesus Christ today, or at any point in history.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

But people follow many leaders who have never performed a miracle. I think the magic of jesus was upped after his death to woo in the new age saps of ancient rome.

I think as state, you've taken an absurd position.
Obviously, the 9-11 conspiracy theory can exist without magic, and so your parallel doesn't work. I don't need a miracle to prove that Richard Perle or Dick Cheney had something to do with it.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:49 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
More people follow Osama Bin Laden today, than follow Jesus Christ today, or at any point in history.

Dream, you gotta back this one up with something, don'tcha?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If I got it correctly, one point of view is that some people are lazy and jump to (comforting) supernatural explanations, and other people are lazy and jump to (comforting) natural explanations. But I'm just plain lazy and sit on the fence until something definite comes along !

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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