REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Funny Cartoon sparks Islamic Jihad !

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Friday, November 8, 2024 05:59
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Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:50 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


"The Government was playing with her brain."
-Dr. T, Serenity pilot (censored by Sir Rupert Murdock, Jewish Australian Knight of the British Empire MI6)


French pig farmer is NOT cartoon of Muhammed
photo by WorldNetDaily.com

Quote:

Blasphemous image posted by http://web.IsraelInsider.com

"WASHINGTON, DC -- The NATO intelligence provocation appearing in the guise of the scurrilous Mohammed cartoons published by the reactionary newspaper Jyllands Posten of Denmark, and then by a series of other European publications, has already done much to mobilize the armies, bases, and treasuries of Europe in support of the lunatic plan to the Bush-neocon clique for a nuclear sneak attack and punitive expedition against Iran over the coming weeks or months. As I warned in a red alert for synthetic terrorism issued on total411.info and other sites in the late afternoon of Feb. 3, this entire affair has been cynically orchestrated by NATO intelligence agencies to set the stage for a new world war. Denmark has been largely a British puppet state over the last two centuries ­ since Lord Nelson burned the Danish fleet in a sneak attack on Copenhagen which put an end to Denmark as an independent power. For the broadest political purposes, provocations coming from Denmark can be thought of as being signed by the warmonger Tony Blair personally. The current Danish neocon regime is in any case a member of Bush's coalition of the willing engaged in the illegal occupation of Iraq.
-Webster Tarpley, Rense.com, "The Mohammed Cartoons - Recruiting Europe For Bush's War On Iran"
http://rense.com/general69/moh.htm

"Government control of Communications and Transportation."
—The Communist Manifesto, 6th Plank (written by Jewish Luciferian Freemason Karl Marx in London England)

"The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations."
-USAma Bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people."
-Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Operation Northwoods
James Banford from ABC News reported on Pentagon's Operation Northwoods plot to perp domestic terrorism in USA to blame a foreign nation and "justify" invasion, declassified in 2000
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba. Code named Operation NORTHWOODS, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro. America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years. The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military. Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job. Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy. "The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford."
—David Ruppe, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. The presense of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The US could follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Use of MIG-type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping, and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type palnes would be useful. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce that fact. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. It is possible to create an incident which would demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civilian airliner from the United States. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rondevous. From the rondevous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly to an auxiliary airfield at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. Meanwhile the drone aircraft will continue to fly the filed flight plan. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio stations to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident. It is possible to create an incident that will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly Tail-end Charlie. While near the Cuban island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. This pilot would then fly at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who performed the mission under an alias would resume his proper identity. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared. A submarine or small craft would distribute F-101 parts, parachute, etc. The pilots retuning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found."
—Jewish Zionist General L.L. Lemnitzer, chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara - Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962 (declassifed 2000)
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

USS Liberty - US Navy ship attacked by Jewish Israeli Air Force, Army and Navy, under illegal treasonous orders from Jewish LBJ White House, to sink it and murder every American on board, in order to blame Egypt and justify invasion by Israel
www.ussliberty.org

"And they had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew was Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. Abaddon and Apollyon mean Destroyer."
—Revelation 9:11, Christian Bible


USA needs to immediately arrest the Bush Gang and their Federal Reserve Banksters, bomb Israel and arrest its leaders and banksters, bomb Mexico and arrest its leaders and banksters, and bomb City of London and arrest its leaders and banksters, and arrest the "British" royal family and destroy the British monarchy, as USA should have done in 1776. Leave the Arabs alone and let them sell us oil at 50-cents/gallon, and stop exporting 80% of Alaskan oil to Commie China and Commie Mexico. Anything less is mass suicide.

"And I'm thinkin' you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schoolin'."
-Mal


FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php


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Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:29 PM

JAYTEE


Fletch2's post is probably the most sagacious and succinct posting I've read yet on this topic. I'd like to add that it's not what the Danes did but what Islamic imams from Denmark did that inflamed this issue and incited the violence. As for what's going on now in the Middle East there's lots of evidence to prove that the people living there barely need an excuse to behave violently and then say they are acting from their religious devotion. The only problem I have with Islam is it's preaching of brotherhood while at the same time being so intolerant of other's beliefs. In the religion I was raised in it is considered a sin to lie or steal and it makes no exceptions as to who you lie to or steal from. In the Koran it is written that it is acceptable to lie or steal from an infidel and in the classic definition of infidel that is any non-muslim. There is no central authority in the Islamic religion and too many imams are spreading hatred of the West in their sermons and fostering violence in the name of their prophet. While I sympathize with their beign offended at the cartoons mocking their prophet and feel that was an innappropriate act I find the violence done in retribution and the calling for the deaths of the cartoonists to be totally over the top and proof that Islam is rife with fanaticism. I keep hearing about "moderate" muslims and a few have spoken out lately but it's sad that it's taken this long for the moderates to speak out. Too many seeds of hate have already been planted in the minds of youth in the Middle East for it to turn the tide easily. I fear we are heading toward the brink where it will become very, very bloody before there is a resolution to this problem. And as for being offended, I'm still waiting for an apology from the muslim world for letting the Taliban blow up ancient buddhist statues at Bamiyan.

Jaytee

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:33 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


I can think of two words, hypocrisy and irony. There's hypocrisy on both sides but it's really much worse with the Muslims rioters considering how they regularly profane against others with their open celebration of terrorist attacks against the west, demonization of the Jews, some Muslim "newspapers" have the audacity to claim that the Jews were in league with the Nazis, not to mention how there's almost no reaction from those outraged rioters when a Muslim terrorist attacks a Mosque in Iraq. The irony is of course, how they're basically protesting against the very rights that they lack, they're basically supporting their own oppression.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:20 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:
Well, I can't speak for the Qur'an, as I've never read it, and was never a practicing a Muslim, but I can refer you to the statement of a man who was a practicing Muslim, Zachariah Anani (from http://www.shoebat.com/anani.php)...

"A lot of people think that Islam is okay," says Anani, and "that those who are making these terrorist attacks are not from Islam. It's actually the other way around. The people who are nice are not really true Muslims—all you have to do is read the doctrine. Chapter (9) of the Qur'an is nothing but a declaration of war."

Can I tell you something that is apparent to me about this man? He's a psychotic, sounds to me like he enjoyed killing and it also sounds like he now blames Islam for his actions. Letting himself off easy, religion made me do it, you can't blame me! That seems to go counter to your earlier statements regarding 'the Elephant in the room'. I'll say it loud and clear, Zachariah Anani does not know what he is talking about. He knows and thinks about Islam only what he was told to know and think about Islam from the 'religious' leaders who indoctrinated him into hating Jews and Christians in the first place.

Fundamentalist seldom follow their own religion particularly closely, while believing they follow it more exactly than anyone else, Zachariah Anani doesn't dissuade me from this view. Think about it, if you were to ask an Inquisitor from the Spanish Inquisition who follows Christianity better, you or them, what do you think they'd say?

Fundamentalist Christians aren't all that better than Fundamentalist Muslims, though they don't receive the extremely one sided coverage afforded Muslims. I could also argue that they are more dangerous than Islamic Fundamentalists, given their strong links to the American Government and vast resources. What about Michael Evans who's calling for Global war in the name of Christ; or Pat Robertson's calls for the Assassination of the Venezuelan president? How would you feel about people calling Christianity evil because of the actions and words of these (frankly) nut jobs? Don't forget that they also believe that they are true Christians and you (unless you support global war and assassinations, which you don't seem too) are not.

Yes there is some passages in Surah At-Tawba(Repentance, Dispensation) (chapter 9) of the Qur'an that can be twisted in to allowing attacks on non-Muslims, as it is passages dealing largely with Muslims in Jihad.

I'll give you this quote, which is probably the worst, for free:

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.[[]9:5[]]

But to temper it here's something not all that different from the Bible:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.[[]2 Chronicles 15:12-13[]]

The truth is that for every passage of violence in the Qur'an there's at least one in the Bible, possibly more, simply because the Qur'an is much shorter than the Bible.

I'm not trying to attack Christianity, well I am trying to attack Christianity, but not because I think Christianity is evil, but because I think neither Christianity nor Islam is. Seriously if I thought it had any relevance I'm fairly certain I could quote ex-Christians who have turned to Islam. There are plenty of people, who can turn on Christianity and call it evil, and a lot of evil has been done in its name, but I'm guessing that you would refute that that means Christianity was evil.

If you believe that exposing your children to violence is a problem, by all means keep them away from the Bible.
Rev. Charles Henderson

The Old Testament, as everyone who has looked into it is aware, drips with blood; there is, indeed, no more bloody chronicle in all the literature of the world.
Henry L. Mencken

The Old Testament is a chronicle of horrors, describing an egocentric collection of supernatural beings who were always doing rotten things to gentle souls like Job
John Keel

If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would strictly follow the teachings of the New, he would be insane
Robert Ingersoll

There would be no need for the women's movement if the church and Bible hadn't abused them
Father Leo Booth
Did these people miss the point? Do they not really know what Christianity really is? Can't the same be said for Zachariah Anani and Islam?

Quote:
I do feel personally slighted, however, as Her Majesty saw fit to leave for the United States on the day I arrived (I believe to buy some horses in Kentucky), then returned on the day I left. I can't help but feel that was intentional, and that she was trying to avoid me.

That stuck-up cow . I’m planning on coming to the US in September, so if someone could make George Bush aware so that he can be out of the country, that would be great .


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:28 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by JayTee:
In the Koran it is written that it is acceptable to lie or steal from an infidel and in the classic definition of infidel that is any non-muslim.

This needs to be backed up by a quote, just because some nut job Imam says it doesn't make it so.

I fear the Fundamentalists Christians in the American Government far more than Fundamentalist Muslims.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Monday, February 13, 2006 8:03 AM

WALKERHOUND


thanks fletch2 for the insightful point.

citizen one thing i think you keep doing is trying to make the case for similarity between the two. it's kind of like the old saw, "life is bad in communist Russia, but it's just as bad in capitalist USA". it's not about trying to say that there are no terrorists or bigots or violent fringe groups that are not Muslim. off courser there are (the problem with the world is that it has people in it, and people are by there nature crazy). but right now in this time and place the danger is from loosely allied groups that share a come ideology (give or take a few points between groups) and it happens that that ideology is based on a radical militant version of Islam. now this dose not nesacarly say any thing definitive about the religion (or cultural for that matter) of Islam, as you have pointed out all religions and political philosophical movements in the world today have some type of skeleton in there closet.

by the same token it doesn’t make much sense (to me at lest) to compare what a movement/group is doing right now....last year, two months ago or today with what some other movement/group did decades or cintrys ago. to in a word excuse the fallings of somebody or something from modern times by use of an example form the pre modern times. the thing about the good old days is that they weren’t good it was a nasty dangers time to live. the idea is to move beyond that.

now i had some other stuff i kind of wanted to say (about the use of "fundamentalist" in regards to believing that only one religion is right for example) but most of it is more a discussion of religion in general. and i think we might have already gone a little far a field from the original topic.

oh ya, sorry about the spelling ya'll


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Monday, February 13, 2006 8:58 AM

CITIZEN


Excuse me if this response is a little combative, but I'm beginning to get annoyed at having to explain this. I am NOT excusing Muslim fanaticism, terrorism or anything else. I'm saying that Islam is no worse than (specifically) Judaism or Christianity and if you wish to say Islam is evil you have to say all religions are evil. Whether their violent period is today tomorrow one hundred years from now or six hundred years in the past it makes no odds to the question "is Islam more evil than Christianity?"

Frankly they were still people and they still had a choice. The violence comes mainly from Muslims living in an environment similar to medieval Christian Europe, so I don’t see how that can be used as an argument to excuse Christianity and not Islam. I’ll say it again, why is Islam demonised because some psycho says “I speak for Islam and we need to kill non-believers” but it’s considered reasonable to excuse Christianity when a psychotic Christian fundamentalist calls for global Christian war? What’s the difference, save for the Muslims have this strange religion that the majority of White Westerners know nothing about?

The logical rebuttal to your argument is that it is culture that is at fault NOT religion, we can look at history and see that given the right cultural circumstances Christians are just as violent as Muslims and that Muslims who are also apart of Western culture (not just who live in western society, those Muslims that actually participate in western culture) aren’t involved in the Terrorism anymore than Christians are. So it logically follows that if Western culture was more like Middle Eastern culture Western Christians would act more like Middle Eastern Muslims (and indeed Middle Eastern Christians). Given this how can anyone say Islam is evil but Christianity is not?

The fact is that great evil has been (and is still being) done in the name of Christianity and Islam, we excuse Christianity of its failings, and for Islam's we demonise it. Why? The only answer I can give is Hypocrisy.

Every argument for why Islam is evil can be levelled on Christianity and every argument used to excuse Christianity can be employed to excuse Islam. So the question is as I see it simple:

Should we ban all religions because they are inherently evil, or should we let people believe in the religion of their choice and accept that religions are not inherently evil, but that some people will do extremely evil things whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jew, Scientologist, Atheist, Agnostic, Wicca or called Brian?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Monday, February 13, 2006 12:19 PM

FLETCH2


The BBC assembled a timeline

Quote:

Cartoons: Divisions and inconsistencies
By Paul Reynolds
BBC News website World Affairs correspondent

The "cartoon crisis" has demonstrated the gulf between sections of the West and the Muslim world, revealed divisions within Islam itself and showed inconsistencies by advocates of both sides.


A look back at the way the issue developed shows the key moments in what was a slow burn towards a crisis.

For this did not just spring upon the world, and decisions taken in the course of the build-up materially influenced the eventual outcome.

It began, in fact, before 30 September 2005, the day the original 12 cartoons of Muhammad were published in Jyllands-Posten.


Inconsistency

And here came the first inconsistency on one side.

More than two years previously, in April 2003, a Danish cartoonist Christoffer Zieler offered some cartoons of Jesus Christ to Jyllands-Posten, Denmark's largest daily paper and generally seen as right-wing.

One of the paper's editors told Zieler: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

No such concern prevailed when Jyllands-Posten decided to solicit drawings of Muhammad after a children's author, Kare Bluitgen, had been unable to find illustrators for his book about the Prophet (written with the intention of widening understanding). The illustrators refused either because they knew that portraits of the Prophet were against Islamic tradition, or were afraid of reprisals.


Internationalisation

Publication led to immediate protests by Muslim leaders in Denmark - and an immediate effort by them to internationalise the issue.

Imam Raed Hlayhel gave an interview to the news website of the Arabic channel Al Jazeera and said: "This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation."

The paper's editor-in-chief Carsten Juste replied: "We live in a democracy. Satire is accepted in this country, and you can make caricatures. Religion shouldn't set any barriers on that sort of expression."

At this stage the row was largely confined to Denmark. Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen refused to get involved and declined a meeting with eleven Arab ambassadors mobilised by the Danish imams.

On 17 October, a curious thing happened. Six of the cartoons were prominently reprinted in an Egyptian newspaper, al-Fagr. The paper said they were racist and would insult Muslims everywhere and predicted an outcry. However, at this stage, nothing happened on the streets. There was no public outcry.

It took concerted action by the Danish Muslim leaders to effect a change.


Wider audience

They decided to take their complaints both about the cartoons and about the position of Muslims in Denmark to other audiences. In December, encouraged by an imam well known in Denmark, Abu Laban, a delegation went to the Middle East where they saw leading Islamic scholars and political leaders.

They took along the cartoons as evidence but they also included in a 43-page dossier three other drawings which were even more insulting and which had not been published in Jyllands-Posten.

The dossier revealed inconsistencies of it own. It contained some placatory statements to the effect that the delegation simply wanted "stable relations, and a flourishing Denmark for all that live here."

But it also contained some rude remarks about Denmark including the sentence "If you say that they are all infidels, then you are not wrong".


The 'non-cartoons'

The three extra drawings were said to have been sent to Muslims in Denmark as insults. However one of them, apparently showing the prophet with the face of a pig, has been traced to a photo of the winner of a pig-squealing contest in the French Pyrenees last summer.

It remains unclear as to how this last picture, a grey photocopy, came to such prominence but it does seem to have played a role in the raising of the temperature.


The crisis has exposed the fragility of relations between the West and Muslim countries
The delegation spokesman, Ahmed Akkari, said they pointed out the status of the different pictures on their travels but the "pigface" photocopy was later filmed in Gaza at the end of January when gunmen took over EU offices, and so somehow it had been lifted out and given importance.
Mecca meeting

A key moment came in December at a meeting of the Organisation of The Islamic Conference (OIC) in Mecca, itself such an important and relevant venue for a discussion of Muhammad.

This transformed the issue.

The OIC expressed its concern at "rising hatred against Islam and Muslims" and condemned "the recent incident of desecration of the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad".

Its statement attacked the "use of freedom of expression as a pretext for defaming religions".

The row had moved from an argument in Denmark through Islamic circles in the Middle East to become political as well. Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark on 26 January. Demonstrations followed across the Middle East.

Western governments strove for calm, with statements to the effect that there was a right to publish but a responsibility not to publish.


In turn this prompted a counter-move by defenders of free speech and the cartoons appeared in some, though relatively few, Western publications.

On 31 January, Jyllands-Posten issued the apology it had refused to give earlier.


Conclusions

By now, the crisis had exposed the fragility of relations between the West and Muslim countries. The publication might have passed without major international trouble if these relations had been calm. At the moment, they are not and in such fertile soil, the seed of conflict grew rapidly.

One side felt the insults deeply. The other saw the violence as overreaction.

And in process, the battle was joined within Islam. In Britain, this process was seen very clearly. The extremist elements made their voices heard first, with small, but fervent protests and placards ("Behead those who insult Islam" etc) that led to calls for police action.

But they also led moderate elements within the Muslim community to rally their forces and this they did with a demonstration in Trafalgar Square.

This struggle for the hearts and minds of Islam may yet prove to be the most significant battle of all, even more important than a confrontation between Western secularism and Islamic belief.

Paul.Reynolds-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/4708216.stm

Published: 2006/02/13 12:33:39 GMT

© BBC MMVI


It seems from this that radical Iman's in Denmark have spent the last 4 months trying desperately to make this an issue.

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Monday, February 13, 2006 1:01 PM

CITIZEN


There's no argument that Radical Imams are stirring this up, whether thats in Denmark or the Middle East.

Although this comment is funny:
Quote:
The paper's editor-in-chief Carsten Juste replied: "We live in a democracy. Satire is accepted in this country, and you can make caricatures. Religion shouldn't set any barriers on that sort of expression."

Except of course if it's Christianity that is the religion in question, as it appears.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Monday, February 13, 2006 6:29 PM

WALKERHOUND


Quote:
I'm saying that Islam is no worse than (specifically) Judaism or Christianity and if you wish to say Islam is evil you have to say all religions are evil. Whether their violent period is today tomorrow one hundred years from now or six hundred years in the past it makes no odds to the question "is Islam more evil than Christianity?"


you say i'm blaming the religion of Islam for the problems of the coulter of... what? the middle east? first of all Islam is a common theme, many of the country’s i'm talking about are self identified as "Islamic" nations. levying that aside i'm not sure you can so cleanly sepreart the two coulter is informed by religion, religion directs culter. culter is a combination of many factors history, politics, religion all pushing and pulling on each other much like the planets of the solar system.

two shibboleths that you seam to subscribe to.

the radical's are the minority and vast majority of the Muslim population is made up of moderates that are opposed to there actions. first what are you basing that on? don't get me wrong i hope to Heaven, honestly i hope like you can't believe that this is true. almost every politiation devotes a part off every speech about the war on terror to this supposition, but what are they going on. hope, political crectines, common wisdom, or is there some sort of prof. then agine if it is true it is one thing to say i wont personally get involved in that sort of action but with out the follow through to then say but i will get personally involved in combating it. well with out that i don't know how much i care realy.

the grate cultreal/religuous forces of this world are basically the same (at lest in regards to actions). well how, why do you say that. in the hear and now, how many conters or part's of countries run there judicial systems under cannon law? going by majority whether a country is western or Islamic were are you more likely to find: judicial maiming as an ongoing punishment. the outlawing of political opposition. the outlawing of non "correct" religious beliefs and practices. were was the last man sent to jail and given hundreds of lashes for in part "practicing witch craft" and disrespecting the religion of _____. were is your wife most likly to be beaten with a stick on the street while you are berated for letting her go out side dressed like that. no i see no way that the cultures of the west and the cultures of "Islam" are equal.

the Muslims in western culter that do not behave like this (the fact that some do is neither her nor there. agine people are crazy like that). the problem is theas are also people that are hated as much or more so than us other infidels. the muluas and imamns that think i would be appropriate to burn beat and kill at the current time feel (and have stated numers times) that those Muslims that don't join with them (the moderate or westernized followers of Islam) are them selves infidels. matter of fact it just gose to show that there are muslams that don't live there lives as if it is the 1300's.


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Monday, February 13, 2006 6:45 PM

WALKERHOUND


Quote:
Except of course if it's Christianity that is the religion in question, as it appears.



get ready i'm about to annoy people.

i'm not as...excised about this as some. maybe i'm not as cynical is i think i am.

but i will say this Denmark while it dose have a farley large and i believe growing non Christian population. it is still a majority Christian (this included the nominal coulter Christians) nation. also with the nature of the mag in question (which seams to be at lest right leaning) the clear majority of there readers and subscribers would be of some description Christian. in other words it could easily be just a wish not to adversely affect sales. like the man said he didn't think there readers would be interested in it.

also my understanding is that it they went' looking for the Mohamed pic's for a specific editor. brought about by the original author being unable to find anybody to do the illustration for them (in other words thay were trying to be provocative in the first place).

well my 2 cents.



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Monday, February 13, 2006 7:08 PM

FLETCH2


Also has to be said that in the US you can watch Christ fighting Santa Claus on South Park and even in the deep south nobody is burning buildings.

In the UK we frequently do things that are at least sacriligous without riots? Remember the not the 9 O'Clock news sketch "General Synods The life of Monty Python" and "Are you a Gay Christian?" Or the Spitting Image God or the Pope?

I argue that expecting an Arab culture 600 years "younger" than Christianity to behave as we do now is perhaps expecting too much. I also think a lot of it is being encouraged by some Arab governments. Muslims actually in Denmark I think have a right to be upset, as I'm sure Christians would be of some depictions of Christ. I expect them to complain, boycott even demonstrate, not to try to use this to enflame public opinion elsewhere.

When the Spitting Image Pope played his banjo on TV British Catholics didnt try to provoke Italians to burn the British Embassy in Rome, if they found it offensive they used the mechanism our society has to protest. What these Imans in Denmark were doing was the religious equivalent of running and telling tales to your mum rather than fight their own battles. Rather than use the mechanisms for peacefull protest in Denmark they tried to enhance their power by getting others to attack Danish assets abroad. It's the Bully Pulpit method.


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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:14 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by Walkerhound:
the radical's are the minority and vast majority of the Muslim population is made up of moderates that are opposed to there actions. first what are you basing that on?

It's quite simple really, the fact that the majority are always moderates, no matter what religion they believe, you never find the majority as extremists, that’s why they're called extremists, if the extreme was the norm, it wouldn't be an extreme.

Further more there are more Muslims OUTSIDE of the Middle East, and it's plain that not all Middle Eastern Muslims are extremists.

But since you believe that politicians are making the adverse case, here are Bush Jr’s own words for you:
Quote:
"Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism. Whatever it's called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam. This form of radicalism exploits Islam to serve a violent, political vision: the establishment, by terrorism and subversion and insurgency, of a totalitarian empire that denies all political and religious freedom."

Quote:
almost every politiation devotes a part off every speech about the war on terror to this supposition, but what are they going on. hope, political crectines, common wisdom, or is there some sort of prof.

Maybe in America, but before you or the politicians wish me to accept that the Fundamentalists are in the majority you’re going to have to show ME proof, not just empty political rhetoric.
Quote:
then agine if it is true it is one thing to say i wont personally get involved in that sort of action but with out the follow through to then say but i will get personally involved in combating it. well with out that i don't know how much i care realy.

What are you saying? That moderate Muslims aren't combating the extremists? Maybe your media doesn't carry those stories (which should be a question in and of it self) but mine certainly does and I hear about it pretty much daily.
Quote:
the grate cultreal/religuous forces of this world are basically the same (at lest in regards to actions). well how, why do you say that. in the hear and now, how many conters or part's of countries run there judicial systems under cannon law? going by majority whether a country is western or Islamic were are you more likely to find: judicial maiming as an ongoing punishment. the outlawing of political opposition. the outlawing of non "correct" religious beliefs and practices. were was the last man sent to jail and given hundreds of lashes for in part "practicing witch craft" and disrespecting the religion of _____. were is your wife most likly to be beaten with a stick on the street while you are berated for letting her go out side dressed like that. no i see no way that the cultures of the west and the cultures of "Islam" are equal.

I never compared the current cultures of the west and the Middle East, in fact that is pretty much the complete opposite of what I did. I stated quite clearly that it was culture NOT religion that was the problem. How much more clearly can I put it? It seems you are reading into my post what you want to find?

Frankly in order to demonise Islam and excuse Christianity you have to demonstrate that the same does not happen under strict Christian law, it doesn't matter if that is today or a millennium ago, because the religions are still the same.

We are now living in a secular society and culture in the west, where Christianity has a diminishing influence on our behaviour, in order to make a fair comparison between the religions of Islam and Christianity you have to look at western culture when it was not secular and when it was operating under Christian law.

Frankly people are no better off under strict Christian law, so how can you say that Islam is at fault but Christianity isn't? It seems to me that the problem is using a religion as law, not what religion that happens to be. Thus it makes no sense to me to accuse Islam of being an evil religion and Christianity not?

In fact since we have a big thing for only viewing cultures that exist together in time how about the fact that Christian Jerusalem was a violent Sectarian place, but Islamic Jerusalem, separated only by a few short years, was an enlightened place where people were able to worship freely?
Quote:
the Muslims in western culter that do not behave like this (the fact that some do is neither her nor there. agine people are crazy like that). the problem is theas are also people that are hated as much or more so than us other infidels. the muluas and imamns that think i would be appropriate to burn beat and kill at the current time feel (and have stated numers times) that those Muslims that don't join with them (the moderate or westernized followers of Islam) are them selves infidels. matter of fact it just gose to show that there are muslams that don't live there lives as if it is the 1300's.

That's pretty much what I was saying, not religion, culture.


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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:05 PM

PREY


Ok I think we have to take into account whats really going on here. This is my theory. Senior Al Quida leadership obviously looked at this situation and decided to send out antagonist to whip the public into a fury over this, spark violent demonstrations to provoke severe reactions from western countrys to condem islamic states and their people to then in turn spark even more severe reactions from the people (Islamic / eastern) to ultimatley spark the final jihad and cause open war in all countrys.
(Paranoid Hollywood scenario)

My view on this is kind of crude but im a simple man. Coming from a western country Ill put it like this. If there is a religion that calls for the destruction of your people and your culture, to me that defines a enemy, if the nations that harbor this religion are terroist states where the people prove every day they are willing to kill for their beliefs, that pretty much defines itself as a very dangerous enemy to my people. Now these peoples behavior is traced all the way to the root casue of their religion.
Basically theres two solutions.

1. Convince these people their religion is wrong and evil and make them switch (Espically considering their religion was founded hundreds of years after other religions proving to me that its obviously not the correct religion (Hey look at joe he has a cool religion, lets start our own and tell people it was the real one!!))

2. To totally eliminate this threat and provide stability and safety to not only your country but to the world.

You are never going to be able to coexist with people who want your world and your culture to be destroyed. It is written into their culture at the most basic of levles. What Hitler did to the jews was a truley awful thing. But what happens if the jews were evil predators who preyed on the innocent in the name of false rightousness? Then maybe it wouldnt be such a bad thing, I just think that unless people smarten up and stop being so ridiculous the scenario of mass unified genociadal armies is a possibility and one im willing to back if people cannot except the fact they must coexist, and still decide they want to wipe my people off the face of the planet.





Cant we all just get along??

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:20 AM

CITIZEN


Islam doesn't call for our destruction, and Islam isn't evil, like all religions it has the potential to be twisted or misinterpreted into something evil. I'll go out on a limb and say at least half the problems of the world today are a direct result of the expansion of Christian empires yesterday, especially in places like the Middle East and Africa.

So if you wish to call Islam evil, fine, so is Christianity.

Prey since you've already invoked Godwin’s law by mentioning the Nazis I'll run with it. The biggest reason I'm here defending the RELIGION of Islam to the hilt is because of Hitler and his final solution. The media coverage afforded Islam and Muslims strikes me as so similar to Anti-Jew Nazi propaganda it scares me deeply. You talk about Islam being a great enemy, well my friend that's EXACTLY what the majority of Germans thought about Jews.

Here’s an actual slogan used in German media of the time to illustrate my point:
"The Jew is our greatest enemy, beware of the Jew."

Der Sturmer (prominent Nazi propaganda paper) ran contests encouraging German children to write in. One of those letters from a little girl read like this:
"People are so bothered by the way we're treating the Jews. They can't understand it, because they are God's creatures. But cockroaches are also God's creatures, and we destroy them."

Or another article that sounds similar not just to what you have written, but also to what permeates the media today. This is the first paragraph to "Die Juden sind schuld!"("The Jews are Guilty!") by Joseph Goebbels, first printed in the weekly newspaper Das Reich on the 16th of November 1941:
The historic responsibility of world Jewry for the outbreak and widening of this war has been proven so clearly that it does not need to be talked about any further. The Jews wanted war, and now they have it. But the Führer's prophecy of 30 January 1939 to the German Reichstag is also being fulfilled: If international finance Jewry should succeed in plunging the world into war once again, the result will be not the Bolshevization of the world and thereby the victory of the Jews, but rather the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe.
Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
1. Convince these people their religion is wrong and evil and make them switch (Espically considering their religion was founded hundreds of years after other religions proving to me that its obviously not the correct religion (Hey look at joe he has a cool religion, lets start our own and tell people it was the real one!!))

Yes Christians should give up their religion, the Druids were around, what a thousands years beforehand, and then you have the Religion of the Ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians. There’s the Sumerians, Babylonians and Persians who all had their own religions long before Christianity. Buddhism is older than Christianity too, so obviously it is right and Christianity is wrong. Is this really what passes as an argument?
Quote:
2. To totally eliminate this threat and provide stability and safety to not only your country but to the world.

The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all.
Joseph Goebbels, 1941.
Quote:
What Hitler did to the jews was a truley awful thing. But what happens if the jews were evil predators who preyed on the innocent in the name of false rightousness?

According to Hitler and Nazi propaganda they were. Where do you get the idea Islam wants to harm you...?

But yeah, Hitler’s fine example is defiantly one we want to emulate...
Quote:
Then maybe it wouldnt be such a bad thing, I just think that unless people smarten up and stop being so ridiculous the scenario of mass unified genociadal armies is a possibility and one im willing to back if people cannot except the fact they must coexist, and still decide they want to wipe my people off the face of the planet.

This is by far the scariest thing anyone has ever said on these forums. People truly are prepared to allow their leaders to do anything if they think they are threatened:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials.

Hell yeah burn 'em, burn 'em all, we'll be ‘ave’n us a little Muslim Barbeque out in the square, yessiree!
Quote:
Cant we all just get along??

Obviously not, those irrational Muslims are all at fault. You know what we should do, lets just round them all up and put them all together in "communities" where they are "concentrated" so that they can be all together.


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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:57 AM

PREY


All im saying is if people want to kill and cause trouble (The Extreme), and we cant get them to listen to reason, do we allow them to keep causing trouble or do we destroy them?

Heres a analogy, you and your family decide you want to adopt a pet, you go to the pound, you see a ragged dog who looks kind of mean, but you feel bad for him, you decide to adopt him, give him a good home show him a good life, maybe the dog dosnt want anything to do with you and never wanted to be adopted in the first place, but you did it because you knew if you didnt try to help him he would have been put to sleep. So you get the dog home and he starts biting and hurting your family and children, you try to teach him, you try to give him chances, but it continues, finally he mauls one of your children so bad you decide to bring him in the back yard and shoot him, knowing he would just be killed off at the pound.

Im sick of seeing the kids get bit, im sick of seeing the dog get reprimanded, its time to take it out back and put it down for the good of the family.




And I would appreciate it if you didnt compare my scenario to hitler vs the jews, this is totally different, the jews werent firebombing german school houses and cafes, suicide bombing german soldiers in cars to provoke the german reaction, I sympathize with the jews and agree the germans are evil and Hitler should forever be spit on.

You say this is the scariest thing ever said on this forum, but to me what is scary is people getting away with murdering the innocent, murdering people trying to help other people, and you thinking those doing such evil should be left unpunished??? Round em up and put em in camps?? I think they should be executed in the cold dawn of a desert morning overlooking the graveyard nation they helped create.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:11 AM

CARTOON


Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
All im saying is ... (massive deletion for sake of brevity) they helped create.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

(I apologize for vastly trimming your post, but this thread already takes weeks to load for me. And besides, I agreed with all of it, anyhow.)


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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
Im sick of seeing the kids get bit, im sick of seeing the dog get reprimanded, its time to take it out back and put it down for the good of the family.

And if the family of which you speak happens to go around killing and mauling dogs?
Quote:
And I would appreciate it if you didnt compare my scenario to hitler vs the jews, this is totally different, the jews werent firebombing german school houses and cafes, suicide bombing german soldiers in cars to provoke the german reaction, I sympathize with the jews and agree the germans are evil and Hitler should forever be spit on.

How about you argue against what I say, rather than the argument that you wanted to hear. I never said the situations of the Jews and the Nazis and the Muslims and the West were the same, I said the propaganda currently being used against Muslims and Islam is remarkably similar to Nazi propaganda used against Jews and Judaism.

I'm sorry you don't like it but if you knew anything about Islam and saw what was being said about Islam in the popular press you'd realise how similar the propaganda actually is.

Also, saying I don't like it isn't an argument to the contrary, I don't like it, I don't like the fact that we as a people still have learnt anything from Nazi Germany.

But here we go; I like this little comment, the Germans ARE evil. Not the Nazis were evil, the Germans ARE...
Ever been too Germany? I have, lived and worked. The Germans aren't evil. You do enjoy labeling anyone and anything that isn't you evil.
Quote:
You say this is the scariest thing ever said on this forum, but to me what is scary is people getting away with murdering the innocent, murdering people trying to help other people, and you thinking those doing such evil should be left unpunished???

Yes, me too but I'm not the one who said they'd support global war (that's you) or suggesting murder or anything else (again that's you). My point is and always has been the Islam is not an evil religion, and by demonising Islam we're moving dangerously close to the fourth Reich.

It is also somewhat amusing to me that you think all the Western powers are trying to do is help other people. You obviously have done no research on the Iraq war outside of Fox News, and have no historical perspective whatsoever.

If the Iraq war was fought purely to help the poor Iraqis (which it wasn't) it would be the first war in history fought for that reason. The war in Iraq was fought for:

Oil
Rebuilding contracts for American companies
Protecting Western Interests

Note the absence of "bring democracy to the fuzzy-wuzzys or some such". That is at worst an excuse to put a happy face on this war for them that'll believe it, and at best a happy side effect.

So yeah, I'm sick of people excusing and supporting murders, but that ain't what I'm doing, that's what YOU are doing.

But you’re right; we've certainly helped a lot of Iraqis (off this mortal coil). I realise you want to see it as all their fault, you are unable to take responsibility yourself for things done in your name, but I'm afraid reported casualty rates for Iraqi CIVILIANS since the beginning of the war is between 28427 and 32041. But hey it's alright they're subhuman dogs, right.

And of course we’ve suffered so much more…

So anyway you want to call Islam evil then fine, Christianity is also evil, as is Judaism, Buddhism and in fact all religions.

Some Christian extremism:
Uganda:
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and/or raped.

Northern Ireland:
After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.

Kosovo:
There is a lot of evidence to suggest Serbian Orthodox Christians have committed mass murder against the ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim).

Côte d'Ivoire:
Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.
A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.

Jews and Muslims:
Israel:
The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew.

You are the one who seems to ignore the violence from sources other than extreme Muslims, and you are the one who seems to be under the mistaken belief that all these problems will be removed by removing the undoubted source of it all which of course must be Islam. It is somewhat amusing to me that you are unable to see how similar a position this is too the Nazi position on Jews.

Yes, one of us certainly does seem to think murderers should go unpunished, and one of us certainly is supporting murder, that individual is not me.


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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:25 AM

PREY


You can tie me up in fancy snares of words all day long, this is a basic point in all your stuttering around the fact to make yourself look intellegent is unneccesary. I say Kill people who want to kill us, You can say no, or agree, you dont have to quote history and go on a giant binge picking me apart.

If you want to read between the lines with Iraq its pretty simple (Yes you brought it up), yes we did it to help ourselves mainly, but the goal to help ourselves will benefit all the world. I belive that the stabalization of Iraq will slowly lead to the the stabalization of the entire middle east as people slowly see that its better to be free of the yoke of cruel governments. Opressed people crying out will give the US reason to launch further invasions in the name of good and set up puppet states, so eventually we will stabalize a region long hostile towards us, and guess what, we might gain ourselves some natural resources. Did you think we were going to destroy regiemes of evil and build new infastructure for free?? Our the lives of our men and woman defending our country so cheap that we can expect to gain nothing in our endavors? Of course not. People act like its a bad thing we might get some oil out of this, or whatever else.

Would you go kill your friends husband who was beating her and ruining her life, and then build her a entire new house and expect nothing in return??



P.S

I apologize for saying the german people, obviously I was referring to the Nazi's.

And give me a break with the nazi / jew comparisons, im talking about eliminating warring terroists, not a innocent race. I dont want to kill arabians, I dont want a holocaust aganst the Arabs or whatever race is in question.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:54 AM

CARTOON


Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
but the goal to help ourselves will benefit all the world.


The U.S. got nothing out of the First World War, yet our boys shed their blood on the fields of France for a war that accomplished nothing for anyone -- and, if anything, just planted the seeds for the next one.

The U.S. emerged as a global power out of the Second World War, but only because everyone else was fighting at home. When you fight at home, your infrastructure gets smashed, your people get displaced, etc. But the U.S. did not enter the Second World War with the consideration of emerging as a global power. As a matter-of-fact, the U.S. army was ranked around 17th in 1939 (below Poland's). And for the first several years of that war, we were losing. If not for the grace of God, that we were not being attacked at home (having two vast oceans separating us from the two aggressors), and that we had a huge industrial infrastructure to support our military, we could've easily fallen to the same fate as Poland, France or the Philippines.

And what did we do after the war? Did we colonize Germany and Japan, and make them our 49th & 50th states? No. We helped rebuild them. Who else do you know defeats an aggressor nation, then spends billions to help rebuild them?

If the U.S. military was like most others throughout history, it would've raped the land, taken everything, and left nothing but ashes after the defeat of its enemies. It never has.

How people can't see that is beyond my understanding. In my opinion, anyone who thinks the U.S. does this for its own glory is firing a few pistons short in their engine compartment.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:43 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
You can tie me up in fancy snares of words all day long, this is a basic point in all your stuttering around the fact to make yourself look intellegent is unneccesary.

This is very funny. Play the plain speaking valiant local fighting the good fight against the crazy city slickers card all you want, but just so you know it doesn't impress me and it doesn't really work either, I'm afraid those darn Hollywood movies lied.

All this sentence says to me is that you are unable to argue against what I said, so you must resort to playing games, because you could never admit you were wrong now could you.
Quote:
I say Kill people who want to kill us, You can say no, or agree, you dont have to quote history and go on a giant binge picking me apart.

No, this is just an attempt to simplify a very complex situation in an attempt to win a debate that you know you can't win. Pre-emptive action is not a good reason to start a war, if a nation attacks you, you attack them right back, that doesn't mean if a nation or people say I hate you, you have the right to go kill them.

If everyone went around pre-emptively attacking other nations the world would have been reduced to atomic slag long ago. The only justifiable reason for going to war is if you are attacked, thus there are no wars where all participants are justified in fighting.

Oh and it was far from a binge of picking you apart, it was just a little, and it wasn't hard at all, I put this down to the fact that all your doing is regurgitating political rhetoric and propaganda which you don't even really understand.

Good parrot.
Quote:
If you want to read between the lines with Iraq its pretty simple (Yes you brought it up), yes we did it to help ourselves mainly, but the goal to help ourselves will benefit all the world.

You said all we're doing is trying to help people, Iraq is a fairly big recent event where we supposedly tried to help people, so no and you brought it up. You brought it up by suggesting that no one in the Middle East has a right to be just a little bit angry at the Western world.

How arrogant of you though, what’s good for me is good for the world. Sounds like the pathology of you common garden dictator. Wake up; there are plenty of other people living in free societies who are glad not to be you. Did you learn nothing from Serenity?
Quote:
I belive that the stabalization of Iraq will slowly lead to the the stabalization of the entire middle east as people slowly see that its better to be free of the yoke of cruel governments.

Yeah the Middle East is waaay more stable now...
Quote:
Did you think we were going to destroy regiemes of evil and build new infastructure for free?? Our the lives of our men and woman defending our country so cheap that we can expect to gain nothing in our endavors?

WTF. WTF seriously. Your defending imperialism? What fucking planet are you living on?

Half the problems of the world are hangovers from European Imperialism so now that the US is building its own empire you suddenly think everything’s going to workout for the best?

If you really think any of that puts the war in Iraq in a good light there’s no point in continuing because our views on right and wrong are entirely different and incompatible. It sounds like you’re stuck in the European imperialist age:
It’s okay to invade someone else’s country, slaughter them and pillage their natural resources because in return we're civilising the savage.
Quote:
Would you go kill your friends husband who was beating her and ruining her life, and then build her a entire new house and expect nothing in return??

We blew up the house, not they, we. We have no right to expect to make out on this deal, this was blatant Imperialism and under the guise of pre-emptive action which is shaky enough as it is.
Quote:
I apologize for saying the german people, obviously I was referring to the Nazi's.

I suspected that, the reason I called you on it was because I'm not entirely sure you know who you’re demonising.


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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:02 PM

CARTOON


Prey, have you ever tried explaining the concept of color to a blind person? It's frustrating, isn't it. You know exactly what it is, but no matter how hard you try, they're never going to get it.

Do you really think that anyone who can defend rioting, burning and infantile, tantrum-throwing behavior (over a cartoon) is ever going to understand that civilized people simply do not behave this way -- whatever the offense?

As someone else has already pointed out here, Jesus is blasphemed on an almost daily basis in our country by our own media and "entertainment" (I believe the example they sited was from "The Simpsons" -- and it happens all the time). Civilized people (I'd like to think that includes me -- most of the time), avoid the source of offense. We do not act in the manner described above. You and I understand that. Apparently, others do not -- and will find reason to excuse it ad naseum.

There's a point when one has realize one's limitations, abandon the hopeless cause, and move onto more realistic endeavors.

Otherwise, it's just gonna' damage your calm.






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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:16 PM

PREY


Citizen, if I had more time (As in your situation to me) I could easily take every paragraph you type, look up and site sources that go aganst the point your trying to prove (not to mention make me look way super cool !!), use a few big words and come up with the perfect rebutle to everything you say, but I wont and im not, I was here to put out my origional point, and honestly, we both know we can just keep running around in circles so im going to stop here. I dont want to argue with you I just wanted to throw my opinion out, if you dont look it good, I didnt expect alot of people to, I know its extreme. But spare me the holy crusader im going to rip you apart and reform your ideas with my internet logic, its not working.

Cartoon makes some very interesting points in his statement, maybe the US aint perfect, but ya know what, I dont see other countrys rebuilding and helping other nations on the scale that we have done it (And obviously help do threw history). Also since you wanna quote the typical "America wants t3h oil" crap at me, maybe youd like to touch on the subject on the billions of dollars of of illegal oil france got its grity paws on threw manituplation of a little program called oil for food and however many other countrys. Everyones up in arms aganst the United States claiming we want oil, but ya know what, maybe we were sick of a terroist regime gettin super rich off of scum bag countrys that were willing to cheat the UN and the world by cutting behind the back deals and then watching the Iraqi Regime using those illegal funds to supress their people, fund terroist Jihads aganst good countrys trying to do positive things for the world.

So basically the United States stopped the free hand outs for a handful of countrys. We eliminated the centralized center of one of the worlds biggest terroist networks in Afganhistan and helped revitalize it a little bit (Its still a shit hole, but its Afghanistan, who knows if it can ever be revitalized), We eliminated a evil regime in Iraq (Yeah maybe we had a little something to do with setting it up, but at least we were man enough to come fix our mistake), We are helping revitalize a piss poor country and trying to redevelop its infrastructure and to top it all off, training a modern police force / army for them, AND Helping provide security so they can try to have their elections without some suicidal wacko with a bomb take em out. And you gladly quote the, UNITED STATES WANTED TEH OIL!!! Unfortunetly you are wrong. If we wanted oil we would have jumped on board with France and channeled money via unsupervised back door UN programs for it, no instead we sacrfice billions of dollars and thousands of lives to help rebuild a country, and your worried about us catching a little profit, ha.

Citizen lets put all the crap aside, tell me where Osama is right now and after I haul him in, ill cut you in on some of the reward.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:19 PM

PREY


Cartoon you make some very good points and your right about trying to teach the blind color it can be very frustrating, I notice that they cant really argue the origional base point either, they have to twist and manipulate and work to entirley different subjects, as if quoting something they found on a quick google search is going to side track the way we feel ;)


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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:14 PM

CITIZEN


Cartoon:

Pretty much all your post is unmitigated crap.

I never once supported the rioters or Al Qaeda, if you’d actually read my posts rather than attempting to satisfy your own rhetoric you may have realised that. You want that to be my position so that you can demonise me and ignore anything else I had to say. My point has from the very beginning been about one thing and one thing only, Islam isn't an evil religion. If have tried quite hard to keep other strands out of my own posts, despite you and others bringing them up.

I said not once (and I would challenge you to quote me) that these riots are justified, or that these people should not be punished, I merely said that Islam wasn't evil, and attempted to show this by the supposition that Christianity can also be twisted in too something violent. You obviously don't like this, being a Christian, but you know what tough, it’s happened and it is happening.

I'll say it again in case you missed it:
Islam isn't an evil religion, those who follow Islam (that is properly) don't strap on bombs and fly planes into buildings.

That has been the only point I've been trying to make, I'm beginning to wonder if your mind is capable of absorbing it, or with a true grasp of cognitive dissonance all you read was My names Citizen, I like too support terrorists written over and over again.

It’s very telling that you can’t disprove the points I raised in respect to Christianity, but prefer to attack me instead with Childish innuendo, I take that as a win, thanks.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:01 AM

CITIZEN


Prey:

Actually a good deal of what I posted was off the top of my head, though often I do search or look at sites/books that I've already read in order to make sure my facts are straight, I understand if that’s a concept that is Alien to you. I also understand if the concept of debating a point based on the facts, rather than opinion and prejudice is totally alien to you, Militant Christian Fundamentalists often find facts get in the way of the pure pursuit of rhetoric.

Guess what I wasn't attacking the US, though that's the picture you want to paint of me, since it's then easy to just point to the good America has done and say see...

But unfortunately no matter how you paint the Iraq war it is Illegal, plenty of other states have done similar things in recent history and been vilified for it. Hell Mark Thatcher was arrested for trying to help enact "regime change" in Equatorial Guinea.

As for not seeing any other countries doing this stuff it just shows your ignorance, there are plenty of other countries involved.

Also the French weren't involved in the oil for food scandals that was some EU politicians, not nations, again your ignorance, not mine. Also US companies made billions from illegal Iraqi oil, something the American government, and indeed media, turned a blind eye too.

Since in America it was in vogue for a while to vilify the French cause they weren't doing what America wanted, that reaction is hardly surprising. Just so's ya know, your nation owes its existence to the French and that fine lady out in New York harbour, yeah she's French too. Ohh I bet that just eats you up inside.

You want an argument use the legal oil deals signed between Germany, France and Russia with Saddam prior to the Iraq war which I'm sure you knew nothing about.

Also Iraq never had any terrorist’s connections, there’s more terrorists in Iraq now than there ever were, in fact Osama Bin Landen hated Saddam because he was secular, not Islamic. Again a fact your ignorant little mind is probably unable to grasp.

As for my 'internet logic' not working I'd say, given the fact that you've added nothing to this discussion bar propaganda I see every day anyway and entirely baseless personal attacks I'd say it's working quite well. Also the supposition that I am blind is most amusing, especially since I obviously know more about the various groups and situations involved, no googling required.

Anyway, if you wish to furnish us with your undoubted insights into the Iraq war, based on your vast lack of facts, I believe theres a thread here right now for that very purpose. I urge you to go read it, since I'd love to see you ripped apart there too.
Quote:
Citizen lets put all the crap aside, tell me where Osama is right now and after I haul him in, ill cut you in on some of the reward.

I don't know where he is, obviously since not once have I spoken in defence of the rioters or terrorism, this statement would be like me saying:
Prey supports Hitler wholeheartedly.
Which I haven't said. In fact it is your position that more effectively supports Osama, not mine.

Though I can picture you goose-stepping to work at the local Muslim camp, a shiny new Christian Fundamentalist Neo-Nazi youth knife strapped to your hip, not a great stretch given the fact that you support unchecked global militarism.

I think the country you would have been most happy in would have been communist Russia, they liked the whole global war deal.

Bye sweetpea, and remember, never ever ever think for yourself, your local Militant Reverend and your daddy have your best interests at heart, even when they're telling you to bomb that abortion clinic. Your doing gods work .

Arse.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:12 AM

PREY


Wow that was alot of writing, I must have touched a nerve somewhere. Islam is not a evil religion,only a portion of the people who follow it. Theres christans who are in the kkk, whats your point? My point is to kill people who want to kill me first, I think you like to talk, and your trying to look like a hero and live up to some weird standards that exist in your mind. If you have a problem with me stating my opinion then dont read it in the first place, making a compendium of information destroying my arguments and attacking me dosnt change anything. I never resorted to attacks aganst you, im sorry you feel the need to slander me in order to advocate your opinion over mine. I think ive said everything I wanted to say and then some, and I dont feel the need to carry on useless arguements with you in front of everyone who dosnt want to read them anyway so discharge your virtual testosterone and lets call it a day kid.



Ill see you all as soon as some other crazy Islamic news riles up the word and makes another big sensational post. Maybe me and cartoon can argue again and he can flex his e-penis for all of us.


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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:52 AM

CARTOON


I did say that certain folks might damage your calm, and suggest that it might be advantageous to ignore those who are inclined to do so (as I've been doing).

No one listens to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Prey:
. Maybe me and cartoon can argue again and he can flex his e-penis for all of us.


Certainly not in public, sir. That would be crude.

Likely, not even in private.




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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:29 AM

CITIZEN


Whatever Prey, you kicked off by calling me an Islamic terrorists and you did insinute that Islam is evil, and Cartoon outright said it, but we both know you could never be in the wrong.

Though I see why you think you didn't start with the personal stuff, I mean everything you do is right and justifiable, no matter what that maybe, anything anyone else does is wrong, unless it's what you want them to do.

You say things then take them back and say you never meant that in the first place, it's all veeery boring.

You sound just like the extremists, and as such I agree there's no point continuing because you are beyond any semblance of reason. Good luck with that Son.

Oh and good luck with the global christian war you said you wanted, that'll be sure to spread peace and harmony.

Cartoon:
Yes, religious zealots that preach destruction of other religions on the grounds that they're evil can upset a reasonable moderate who believes in secularism.

Your posts are the result of allowing minors access to a computer.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:41 AM

DREAMTROVE


In case anyone wonder why I haven't been posting on this thread, which they probably haven't:

I'm just sitting back and watching the Jihad fly. Who knew it was so easy to spark a jihad? Grow your own! Confuse you friends! Amaze you enemies!

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:47 AM

CITIZEN


Noted DT. But for a shiny penny can you point out which posters are screaming evil and calling for global war and Militarism?

Event's here certainly do seem to be mirroring the real world.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:12 AM

CITIZEN



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Friday, February 17, 2006 7:03 PM

DREAMTROVE


Ah, my power was out and I missed the deleted post.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:23 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Cartoon Jihad continues

One of Indonesia's biggest-selling newspapers has depicted John Howard and Alexander Downer as a pair of sex-crazed dingoes, dragging media outrage over the Papua visa row down to a new low.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/cartoon-sends-jakarta-row-to-ne
w-low/2006/03/29/1143441213033.html
The front page of the Islamic-leaning Rakyat Merdeka (People's Freedom) newspaper was dominated by the cartoon of the two having sex under a palm tree on an otherwise barren island signposted "Papua".

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Saturday, September 16, 2006 6:20 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


That old fuddy duddy Benedict has opened his mouth again, only to inspire Rage from radical Muslims

Pope's remarks recall cartoon crisis
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1158328981
158V325
Pope Benedict XVI's comments linking Islam with violence have angered the Muslim world in a clash reminiscent of protests over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed printed in Denmark a year ago.

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Saturday, September 16, 2006 4:17 PM

DREAMTROVE


Muslims are insane, and the pope is an idiot.

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Saturday, September 16, 2006 4:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Muslims are insane, and the pope is an idiot.


The Pope quotes somebody else who says the Muslims are violent. In protest, the Muslims get violent. Nobody sees the lovely irony here? Don't blame the Pope for telling the truth, whether it's in his own words or from some ruler 600 yrs ago.



That ain't hatin', that's just factin' - Chris Dimino.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:37 PM

DREAMTROVE


AUraptor,

yes you're right. The irony of islamic response has been lost on me because of too many iterations. "You people are violent" :How dare you, we will kill you all and dance on youre graves!

So yes, you're right.

The quoting thing is a cheap cover. When I quoted TR at you, it wasn't because I disagreed with his statement. I think you're probably right that TR would have said making a film about killing a sitting president was a bad idea.

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 4:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Anybody that gets riled over a 'toon has no life and no real belief.



Eff 'em all Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 9:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Reminds me of those stories you read all the time about how a wife and children (or occasionally husband and children) get whacked by a spouse during the divorce process or afterwards. Ya don't love me?? I'll KILL ya!. Psycho.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 11:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Seems like they're the ones fanning the flames of discontent all over again.

'em.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




The guy looks like a OompaLumpa.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, February 15, 2008 5:10 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:15 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Raising the alarm

David Frum, National Post Published: Saturday, February 28, 2009
Quote:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=d1eea87c-
ac18-4d29-9d08-1d905624ef6c

In a small room in Washington's National Press Club, a tall man with bright blond hair stands flanked by grim-faced security guards. He is here to screen a short documentary movie -- a movie that has caused him to be charged with three counts of hate speech in his native Netherlands and to be forbidden entry into the United Kingdom only two weeks ago.

Here in the United States, the reception is a little different. On Thursday, Geert Wilders showed his movie to members of the U. S. Congress. He has been interviewed on CNN and Fox, and on popular radio programs. He opened his remarks at the Press Club by ironically thanking U. S. immigration authorities for allowing him to visit the country.

Wilders is a member of the Dutch parliament and leader of the small Party for Freedom. Small until now anyway: The hate-charge against Wilders has elevated the Party for Freedom to third place in Dutch polls.

Wilders' movie, Fitna (from the Arabic word for violent strife) presents graphic images of the violence done by Islamic terrorists, intercut with quotations from the more bloodthirsty passages of the Koran. The movie never had theatrical release, but can be seen on the Internet at for example, fitnamovie.net.

Even before the film's release, Wilders had become famous as a ferocious critic of Islam and of the Netherland's large and growing Muslim minority: almost one million of the country's 16 million population. He has compared the Koran to Mein Kampf and urged a halt to all migration from Muslim countries.

Left-wing Dutch groups have for years urged the prosecution of Wilders under the Netherlands' hate-speech laws. Dutch prosecutors ignored them. But at last, in January, the prosecutors got their way: a panel of Dutch judges ordered prosecutors to act. Charges were filed, and a case begun.

The prosecution was a bizarre one. At the same time as one branch of the Dutch government was working to send Wilders to prison, the security services were providing him with round-the-clock protection. The Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn and the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh had both paid with their lives for their criticism of Islam, and the Dutch government was desperate to avoid a third murder.

If there is any irony in the alleged hater being the person in lethal danger, and the supposed victims of hatred being the ones ready to murder, it goes unremarked by the Dutch legal system.

If the prosecution made Wilders famous, his ejection from the United Kingdom elevated him to full celebrity. Two days before Wilders' press conference, I happened to be in Providence, R. I., and boarded a Southwest Airlines flight back to D. C. at the same time as Wilders himself. He was travelling with an entourage as impressive as a movie star's. I was chatting with a couple of them as we entered the otherwise almost empty plane -- and was suddenly halted by a Transportation Security Administration employee, who scrutinized me as fiercely as an enforcer at a Hollywood nightclub. "It's OK -- he's with us," said one of the Wilders group, and I was whisked inside..
...
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=d1eea87c-
ac18-4d29-9d08-1d905624ef6c



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Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:37 AM

CITIZEN


Will you quit sending me notifications of you're necro-posting JaynezTown, it was boring about twenty tries ago, and now it's just plain trolling.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:08 AM

JAYNEZTOWN



Why should I quit posting in my own thread

and why are you constantly defending these Islamic scumbags 'Citizen'? WTF is your problem are you muslim or something?
Am I doing anything violent to your personally?

I also have many liberal values but I am extremely embarrassed by the radical element that has taken over the left. How did the left get taken by so many of these self-absorbed, even whiny anti-Americans?
Are you a muslim 'Citizen' are you just one of these stupid liberals who is constantly self-absorbed and anti-American?
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
M Islam is different from Christianity only in some minor details; they're essentially offshoots from the same trunk.

Islam is very, very different to Christianity, Jain Dharma, North American indigenous Native Indian folk religion and Buddhism and Judaism, Taoism and all the rest.
If the myth of religion is true well that's your belief.

But if its just a story I would classify Jesus as a hippie, a guy who could make magic tricks and got killed for it like a poor kid at Kent State University during Vietnam
he did once in a while get angry but he was mostly chilled and some people wrote down that he made miracles, if that is what a Christian will wish to believe

Muhammed on the other hand was a violent, maniac, who spread his religious cult by the sword. Read about his lootings and rapes in the Koran, all that violence and anti-Jewish racism...Muhammed admits it himself.
This is one big problem with many liberals, they will claim to be atheists and bash Hindus and Christians and Jews but when it comes to the most violent BS religion of them all, the liberals suddenly go all chicken shit.

Too chicken shit to face down a little jihad? Or are you living in some kind of big multi cultural excuse, like living the middle of Londonstan?





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Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:15 AM

PARTICIPANT


Media bias is showing
Published in the Reporter
Posted: 02/28/2009 01:03:53 AM PST
http://www.thereporter.com/opinion/ci_11807307
Muzzammil Hassan and his wife, Aasiya, a Muslim couple, started a TV network near Buffalo, N.Y., calling it "Bridges" and intending it to improve the image of Muslims in America. Shortly after Aasiya filed for divorce, Muzzammil beheaded her. This story wasn't mentioned on ABC, CBS or NBC, and it barely received any coverage in the newspapers.

If a Christian televangelist or someone like Pat Robertson had committed such a crime, that's all the media would be talking about for at least a week.

The media can claim whatever it likes, but I really wish that it would stop claiming that it is not biased.

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:24 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:

Why should I quit posting in my own thread

I'll take that as a no then. As far as I'm concerned you can post on any thread you like, but I'm getting fed up of you constantly sending me the notification, even when you're neither addressing me, nor replying to me. It's trolling, so if you want to prove yourself a troll, carry on doing it I guess.

I ask you to cut out sending me notifications, and out come the claws and personal attacks. I'm surprised you are so anti-extremist, are you upset they're breaking into your gig or something?


Quote:
This is one big problem with many liberals, they will claim to be atheists and bash Hindus and Christians and Jews but when it comes to the most violent BS religion of them all, the liberals suddenly go all chicken shit.

This is the problem with fascists, they will claim to have facts, but when challenged all they can bring up are lies about people they disagree with.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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