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Originally posted by Eric:
I've already started saving up for an isolated island property in Canada...I suggest everyone else do the same. Looks like it could all come crashing down anytime...

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Bush gave a good speech, so kudos.

But...

The Musharraf gave a speech in which he basically said "screw america, I'm china's new best friend"

Which brings up this scenario some people may remember when I said "If we're not careful, this could happen" and then I drew a map? Well we were not careful in the extreme, and here's the reality.



And we're at war with Islam? Where was I? Well, it's a whole bucket of bad, people.

The US has been de facto defeated in Afghanistan, where we control 0% of the country. China has a straight line to Iran, and has promised to back it up militarily.

And Bush is issuing warnings? We can't win this war guys. In fact, drawing it to a draw in soe favorable light is beginning to look sketchy. If we want to do that, we should start right now. We're about to have our asses handed to us if we don't.

This isn't the rule of the American know-how, it's the rule of the American know-it-all.

I see some right wing xtian group backed torture. The president lost his temper at Powell, and Snowe, Hagel and Chafee joined McCain, Warner and Graham in opposition to the new plan (good for them)

Bush is coming down with a thud, that goes without saying, but it's much worse than that. America may come down with a thud. I think we should start that alternative fuel research right now, because when China controls the ME, we don't want to have to borrow money from them to buy oil from them at a name-their-price deal.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Kaneman

The map was speculation when I posted it a year ago. As of today, it's fact. Pakistan declared its alliegence to China today. They essentially said America, so what, paint us red. That's why they're red.

The radical change of the map is just that Iran has been an ally of china since 2000. Now they share a corridor. The oil production of Iran is soon going to be #1. OUR elected govt. in Iraq is considering signing a deal with Iran. When we are gone, they will be Iran's new bes friend. At some point, they might support OBL to take over SA, which is his real personal life long ambition. At that point, all our base will belong to them.

China already has Venezuela, and increasingly, LA as a whole. This give us OUR oil, and precious little else. Fortunately, we have a fair amount of oil. But we need to think about a change of energy policy.

Make note, please, that the most important part of the change in the map is that China's previously seemingly empty threat that they would defend Iran if we attacked it is now much more solid, since they can freely roll in the tanks. War with Iran has now become a completely unwinnable affair. Expect much empty rhetoric from the US with zero impact on Iran.

My point, BTW, when I proposed this possibility last year was that Finn and co might look at it and take note, and place a higher priority on maintaining our alliance with Pakistan, by, say, not bombing it. When we attacked places like Waziristan, which is one of the places OBL is believed to be, and is claimed by Pakistan (Though it claims to be independent) - that creates ill will with Pakistan. I don't care about OBL, but I'm not fond of losing the entire conflict to arrogant stupidity.

This is the part about Uh-oh. I have no idea if those guys have any influence, but clearly, we failed to hang on to a fragile relationship. Anyone who is following the Afgh. conflict knows that we are getting our heads handed to us daily in the countryside, and increasingly in the cities, and lately in the capital. I don't buy that Saddam had been reduced to mayor of Baghdad, but Karzai has become mayor of Kabul.

I think in general, in all of this distraction to Islam and terrorists, we took our eyes off the ball. Our enemy was communism, which failed to roll over an die when the soviet union collapsed. Communism, in an economic sense, sure, is gone, but as a system of govt. and social order, bound by a top down design, a ruling oligarchical elite, and a zero human rights and freedom policy - is alive and well. And we ignored it, and got on this Bin Laden/Al Qaeda/Saddam/Islam kick and our old foe spent little time dancing about the fireplace, but got right to work taking over everything we were ignoring. Has anyone noticed the spread of soviet-style communism in africa? I don't imagine anyone was looking. How about in Russia? I hear an awful lot of "Russia, so what" these days, but Putin has virtually reconstructed the old soviet power hierarchy. Party over, time america gets back to work.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rue,

excellent observations about China, I thnk you're right on all accounts.

I don't think our neanderthal goons are ready to give up on oil. They were all about oil in the 1970s, and backed the idea of the AT&T break-up over nothing to do with phone service in 1984. AT&T was the #1 company in the alternative energy field at the time, in fact, they were 90% of the industry. Our high phone bills were paying for that research...

...Alternative energy will come., but someone else will control it, thank god

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Well, depends what's acceptable. China took over Taiwan, a US ally the size of Iraq with more earning power than ten Iraq's worth of oil. If we had agreed to defend Taiwan in exchange for a 10% tax, they probably would have taken it, and it would yield the same income as stealing all the oil from Iraq. China has no intention of going to war with the United States. They would have made a lot of noise about it, but they wouldn't have done anything.

Honestly, this is what I expected Bush would do back in 2000. I didn't think he was a total idiot. I appear to have been proven wrong.

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Originally posted by Spacelips:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Well, depends what's acceptable. China took over Taiwan, a US ally the size of Iraq with more earning power than ten Iraq's worth of oil. If we had agreed to defend Taiwan in exchange for a 10% tax, they probably would have taken it, and it would yield the same income as stealing all the oil from Iraq. China has no intention of going to war with the United States. They would have made a lot of noise about it, but they wouldn't have done anything.

Honestly, this is what I expected Bush would do back in 2000. I didn't think he was a total idiot. I appear to have been proven wrong.

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I wasn't aware we were stealing all the oil from Iraq. Is that rhetoric or hyperbole?

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