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The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I found it ammusing when I was out there that for a supposedly secular nation from conception to birth all your money had "In God We Trust" printed on it.

Isn't that kind of forcing people to carry Christian symbols even if they are not Christian...

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Originally posted by kaneman:
Since when is "God" a christian only concept?

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Anyone notice how Christians and right-wing Republicans are being uncharacteristically quiet about this post? It must have something to do with the irrefutable evidence.

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Originally posted by misbehaven:


I think we're safe. They're probably too busy praying for our atheistic souls.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Glad to help out Whim. I sent it to some of the ultra-conservative members of my family, and I have yet to receive a response. I think it's the whole facts thing that's leaving them speechless.

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Originally posted by misbehaven:

Oops! You got me.

It never got weird enough for me.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Glad to help out Whim. I sent it to some of the ultra-conservative members of my family, and I have yet to receive a response. I think it's the whole facts thing that's leaving them speechless.

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Originally posted by Whimsicalnbrainpan:

I did send this to the one person in my family who has an open mind. Now I just need to convert them into a Browncoat.

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By the way, I started reading your blog, and it's incredible what you've survived. My heart goes out to you Whim. You've a level of courage few will ever know.

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Originally posted by antimason:
Citzen--"in God we trust" does not automatically support this premise that America has been infiltrated by fundementalist christians.... what drives me crazy is that none of you give this subject anything more than a cursory glance and then move on.. and in this way completely miss the forest for the trees

this thread is called "religion and our founding fathers"..

well, did you know that Lucifer(known by many names) is also considered a "God" by many of the mystery religions of the ancient world?

well these doctrines have been preserved by societies like the illuminati/freemasons; groups who set the foundation for our current political system. the links are stronger than you think.. so in this case we are not entirely secularly distinct like you all believe

it is Lucifer, rather than the christian God Yahweh, that is being represented by the collective symbolism adopted by the American establishment, which Yahweh declared in the OT to be idolatrous; such as the all seeing eye, the pheonix(eagle), the obelisks and pentagrams etc... because they are referring to secretive knowledge that was introduced to the ancients by "gods"(fallen angels), knowledge that is highly coveted by these secret socieities

it is said about these mysteries

“The magical mystery religion of Ancient Egypt exercised a great fascination over Renaissance man, which was incorporated into—the newly formed—Lodges at that time. The mysterious heiroglyphs were considered to be symbols of hidden knowledge. Symbols and gestures became a means of conveying secrets and "truths". The cosmos was seen as an organic unity. It was peopled by a hierarchy of spirits which exercised all kinds of influences and sympathies. The practice of magic became a holy quest.”

you may be right that America wasnt founded by christians..but in many ways it was founded by occultists... so is that any better? i guess as long as its not Jesus ...the irony is i dont hear any of you upset about this historical masonic revelation; rather its boastworthy to have nothing to do with Jesus. what is so heinous about Jesus' message? please, quote it back to me!

Masonry, which the majority of our founding fathers were members of, IS a religion! so consider the mark masonry has left on our country..and come back and defend this notion of this secular founding

for starters, the American political system is based off of a masonry, (ie. luciferian idealogy) which denies Jesus' deity as doctrine; because it also acknowledges Lucifer as the light(knowledge) bringer. a good article on this
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1144.cfm
which explains that luciferianism is a worldview, a religion; but something tells me i wont hear you all shouting about the hypocracy- probably because you dont recognize the symbolism, that it is infact religious in nature, and directly related to our cultural practices.

these quotes were taken from the most cherished of Masons (manly hall, albert pike); observe their language and subscribed relevency to the beliefs of the ancients

“Symbolism is the language of the Mysteries ... By symbols men have ever sought to communicate to each other those thoughts which transcend the limitations of language. Rejecting man-conceived dialects as inadequate and unworthy to perpetuate divine ideas, the Mysteries thus chose symbolism as a far more ingenious and ideal method of preserving their transcendental knowledge. In a single figure a symbol may both reveal and conceal, for to the wise the subject of the symbol is obvious, while to the ignorant the figure remains inscrutable. Hence, he who seeks to unveil the secret doctrine of antiquity must search for that doctrine not upon the open pages of books which might fall into the hands of the unworthy but in the place where it was originally concealed.”

“Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah. In that ancient and little understood medley of absurdity and philosophy, the Initiate will find the source of many doctrines; and may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Anti-papal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg.”

“All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the illuminati, Jacob Bœhme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols.”

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”

and it goes on.. but i want my point to be clear that because AMerica is not overtly christian does not mean it is not of another religious pursuasion(occultic)

for a good archive http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Truthiness... isn't that from The Colbert Report, where you make up your own truth?

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Originally posted by RocketJock:

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Truthiness... isn't that from The Colbert Report, where you make up your own truth?

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No, not quite. The "truthiness" of a proposition lies not in whether it is true or false but in whether or not it it ought to be true (in the opinion, presumably, of the speaker).

The logical construct runs kinda like this: "Proposition "X" supports my position; therefore proposition "X" ought to be true; it has truthiness!

It's kind of related to the idea of "printing the legend", but with less artistic dignity.

"The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." -- Albus Dumbledore

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Originally posted by citizen:
I never said anything about Jesus, Jesus preached the destruction of the church so why you harp on about Jesus teachings in relation to the Christian church when the two are more or less mutually exclusive I have absolutely no idea.

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heres the thing Citizen- christian by definition is to conform to the likeness of Jesus. you may be refferring to what has been historically referred to as the "church", but to God, the church are those who do HIS WILL on earth, not the ANTchrists

Jesus is fundemental to all of my arguements around here, because Jesus does not support the behavior that can be plainly exposed as immoral and destructive. so then, are these christian political whores on the right who promote this fearmongering agenda of Terror and evil muslims christian, by definition? NO.. so these distinctions need to be made, as their is a fine line between christian and occultic

show me where Jesus acts immorally, otherwise understand that Jesus does not influence immoral behavior; period. the PURPOSE of God manifesting IN THE FLESH, was so Man could once again have a spiritual relationship with an entity uncomprehendable to us in our fallen state. Jesus as God manifest is the essence of christianity.. anything which claims to be christian, but negates or perverts Gods word is IN REALITY ANTIchristian*, regardless of what its motives or claims are.

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What I can do is show you where the BIBLE endorses genocide, murder, persecution, indifference, bigotry, hate, deception, secrecy, greed or any other negative action, thing is there's rather a lot of it so I don't really know where to start.

Maybe you can come up with the proof of how the Crusades weren't ordered and endorsed by the Roman Catholic church? Or how it's not really Christians who aren't really throwing bombs at abortion clinics. The latter is really quite funny in it's hypocrisy, they're willing to murder people for being 'murderers'.

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but does Jesus ever say that its "ok" to murder 'sinners', that its our duty to expose and judge people? no.. never, Jesus states plainly that only God is fit to judge, as he says "do not judge, or you will be judged".

again, if someone is not living by Jesus' word, then they are not true to the heart christians, but are just wearing it like a political label. when God says "no one is righteous, not one" he is implying that everybody falls short of Gods will. but do we recognize our faults, or sins, and correct them? or do we decide for ourselves what is moral or immoral? that is the important distinction

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You may want to be sure of what it is you are arguing against next time, CAPTAINJAMESKIRK was harping on about how much better things would be in a good Christian nation. Well you know what a good Christian Nation is? One that sends it's good Christian soldiers out to put the heathens to the sword.

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are we talking about Rome? because this should be clear by now that the Catholic church was so thoroughly infiltrated by occult doctrines from early on that it became in itself an antichristian force. i would love to have been their to have seen the Papacy justify war and murder, since Jesus' own words are

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. do to others as you would have them do to you. if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? even 'sinners' do that. but love your enemies, do good to them; then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. be merciful, just as your Father is merciful"

im just showing you that the scriptures do not influence people to do these things.. if we are going to have a debate on the merits of christianity, lets be straight forward about the doctrines that actually taught by Jesus and the prophets

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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...the founding fathers had something that unfortunately not to many people do in America these days....a fear of God.

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Originally posted by citizen:
By your definition of Christianity there are no Christians, I'm not sure how that defends anything in anyway.

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im still waiting for you to show me which part of Jesus' message is so heinous that it directly inspires violence.. otherwise, you have no proof that christianity as a idealogy is responsible for all this destructive behavior. unless you have an idealogy, that you subsribe to, which promotes immoral behavior, then one acts that way out of their own free will.. dont you understand?

Jesus' PROMOTES love and tolerance, it is human nature that is corrupt

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Look, I really have no care to how you rationalise attrocities committed by Christians. I was arguing against 'good Christian nations', evidently you think such a thing is a good idea.

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i dont rationalize any atrocities by anyone... do you see me excusing genocide or conquests of any kind? listen to my message and understand : it is not JESUS who is responsible for these things. if Mohammed preaches terror as honorable, then the Koran becomes suspect... but if the Korans message is peace, then it is the individual follower who bears the blame. what influences you when you descriminate against christians? your own free will.. just as anyone who makes a conscious choice to act unjustly does

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Good luck with that, and when the good Christian government is putting people to death I'm sure those people will be comforted by you explaining that they aren't really Christians so it's not the Christian Theocratic government doing these things.

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the christian government? which one would that be?

Citizen ive tried to say countless times that what you think is christian is actually occultist. what defines a government as christian to you? the US government removed all references to God and the 10 commandments long ago... if your talking about symbols, like the "all seeing eye of providence".. these are OCCULT SYMBOLS! read any one of my previous posts in threads and you will see me make this point

until you consider occultism to be a legitimate presence, and a perversion of christianity, you will never understand the governments of this current age. the bible says that governments, authorities and powers, OF THIS WORLD(which means in all of mans history) are OPPOSED TO THE WILL OF GOD!

in the OT, God did not give Israel a government, they CHOSE a government themselves, against Gods will, because in their weak spiritual nature they wanted to be ruled over by Kings. there is no such thing as a christian government... if you cant comprehend this message, i wouldnt even know where to begin with you; but start with a bible, and a concordance, and look up "the world"; as every institution of power in this world is of Lucifer, not of Jesus; that is the bibles message, clear as day

your issue is that you dont believe God exists, so Jesus wasnt this GOd manifest, and the Bible is merely this fanciful fairy... so Jesus and his message is irrelevant to you. you see christian as a label that you can stereotype everyone into, to fit this preconceived notion of yours of these shallow, dogmatic, ignorant, un-informed war mongers.. when in reality it has become obvious that you truly dont even understand christianity. i have made point after point that Jesus, God manifest, never not once supports these terrible concepts that you attribute to christians; but rather states that these are signs of ANTICHRISTIANITY (or a false messiah, or false doctrine). am i denying that christians have committed sins? no..but that christianity does not influnce this sin

i have never condoned or apologized for the behavior of people who CLAIM to be followers of Jesus but break THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDS.. i have gone out of way to explain that such people are wolves in sheeps clothing.

i am trying to make the point, if youll acknowledge it, that there is no scriptural justification for the negative actions of christians in the past. every sin is the fault of mans fallen nature, whether you are a believer or not... yet being a believer does not condone or washover your sin, but rather holds you even more responsible for your faults. please try to understand this concept, since its the fundemental premise of the bible; hences mans need to be redeemed. i just dont think youve seriously studied the bible, otherwise these basic contradictions would be a little more apparent to you

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Anti- while I agree with you that the current crop of so-called Christians are doing everything BUT following Christ's message, the point is that you by yourself can't define what is and isn't Christian. Definitions are, by (ahem) definition, SHARED meanings. And unfortunately the definition of Christian has been taken over by a rather large group which is busy making the word synoynous with "dickhead hypocrite".

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Originally posted by antimason:
i think Paul says it best when he says

"i promised you one husband, to Christ, so that i might present you as a pure virign to him. but i am afraid that just as Eve was deceieved by the serpernts cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. for if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you recieve a different spirit from the one you recieved, or a different gospel from the on eyou accpeted, you put up with it easily enough.

"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. it is not suprisising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. their end will be what their actions deserve"

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SIGNYM- i completely agree with you, and i think you make a great point that i really want to emphasize. i, just like you said, have no right to say what is christian and what is not, because that would essentially be judging others, and because i am also imperfect, i have no right nor desire, to condemn others for any action

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but in these discussions, when we talk about the history of the world religions, inevitably the comment is made that religion has only fueled divisiveness and hate, such as the holy wars, crusades, witch hunts etc(and certainly your point is a huge factor in this.) but i dont feel that its an accurate assessment of the intent of the prophets of the bible, Jesus' collective message, or even a fair acocunt of our faithfull followers.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Anti- you so completely miss my point that I wonder if you read my post. My idea has nothing to do with imperfection and forgiveness. My point is that it's meaningless and foolish to try a create your own singular definition of a word. Here. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with religion: My definition of the word blue is green. "The sky is such a beautiful green today, don't you think?" How far do you think that will get me?

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OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian?? if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING

you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in? whatever it is, you wont see me attacking your behavior, or anyone else who shares your view

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If you try to redefine words to meet YOUR personal ideology you'll just mess up communication because- theoretically- you're trying to communicate with others so you have to use words in the way THEY understand, not in the way you would like them to be.

First of all, you switched topics in the middle of your response. It sounds as if you're agreeing with me that in general religions promote hatred, division, and intolerance.... but then halfway through you make "special" reservations for the Bible parts that you happen to agree with.

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i agree wtih you that to single out sin, and to take its correction into your own hands is an act of judgement.. which i do not do to anyone. that i agree wtih. but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant

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My point has nothing to do with the "intent" of any religious teaching. The moment you answer questions with faith you have created undiscriminating followers who will be open to following anyone. What you wind up with is a host of wanna-bes all waving their arms and crying out the same message: "NO! Follow ME!! I am the way! Stop the others!!"

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intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.

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Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the statement that ANY theocracy is dangerous- not specifically Xtian but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Animist etc. If even that statement gives you qualms, think about "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and then see if you can come to grips with separation of ANY church from ANY state.

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first of all, i have never ever said that i dont want a seperation of church and state.. i dont know where you all are getting that from. i do feel that any theocracy is dangerous, because the bible says ANY institution of this world is not of GOd; ive made this pointcountless times before. if i am in error according to scripture, show me? if people were truly just, spiritual entities in their own right, we wouldnt need a government of any sort; but in this age, with mans current sinful nature, we do need them; but NO institution, as evidenced by the catholic church, can truly represent JEsus' word

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Originally posted by citizen:
Firstly I'd appreciate some attempt to make your posts readable. The nested quoting thing makes it impossible.

Second I'm still waiting for you to actually talk to me, rather than this other citizen who's talking about Jesus.

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OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian??

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if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING

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you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in?

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but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant

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intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Which teachings would those be? The ones that allow you to stone your wife?

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