America's Ineptitude by misbehaven

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

America's Ineptitude

POSTED BY: MISBEHAVEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 09:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3078
PAGE 1 of 1

Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:54 AM

I'm increasingly amazed at the ineptitude of this country. Why is it that we are no longer willing or able to solve the problems that face us: education, health care, and security just to name a few. Is it simply bureaucracy? Corruption? Both? Or is it something else entirely different? Don't get me wrong. I love this country and I still believe that America has great potential, but for the life of me, I don't understand why we just can't seem to get it together anymore. It seems to me like we're rapidly falling behind other nations on so many fronts, and health care is just one of them.

The following information is an excerpt from the article: If America's So Great, Where's Our Health Care? By Sarah Ruth van Gelder and Doug Pibel, YES! Magazine. Posted September 23, 2006.

The rest of the industrialized world gets universal health care. The U.S. gets limited access at a far higher cost. It's time for Americans to get the health care system they want, and the savings that go with it.

An estimated 50 million Americans lack medical insurance, and a similar and rapidly growing number are underinsured. The uninsured are excluded from services, charged more for services, and die when medical care could save them -- an estimated 18,000 die each year because they lack medical coverage.

But it's not only the uninsured who suffer. Of the more than 1.5 million bankruptcies filed in the U.S. each year, about half are a result of medical bills; of those, three-quarters of filers had health insurance.

The overwhelming majority -- 75 percent, according to an October 2005 Harris Poll -- want what people in other wealthy countries have: the peace of mind of universal health insurance.

The United States spends by far the most on health care per person -- more than twice as much as Europe, Canada, and Japan which all have some version of national health insurance. Yet we are near the bottom in nearly every measure of our health.

Studies conducted by the General Accounting Office, the Congressional Budget Office, and various states have concluded that a universal, single-payer health care system would cover everyone -- including the millions currently without insurance -- and still save billions.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:06 AM

KANEMAN

My two cents.....Money is why we will never have universal health care. The health care industry is about as big as big business can get. The insurance companies call the shots, the pharmaceutical companies fleece the consumer, and the lobbyist make it all happen. I, having the means to pay for my health care, don't mind the way it is. I do know we need it for those less fortunate. I would opt out of a health care program if there was one. Think DMV with needles! Scary.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:16 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
My two cents.....Money is why we will never have universal health care. The health care industry is about as big as big business can get. The insurance companies call the shots, the pharmaceutical companies fleece the consumer, and the lobbyist make it all happen. I, having the means to pay for my health care, don't mind the way it is. I do know we need it for those less fortunate. I would opt out of a health care program if there was one. Think DMV with needles! Scary.

The public healthcare systems of Europe have proven themselves better capable than the private healthcare of the US.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:37 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

seems I remember someone trying to do that in the 90's. Her name was Hillary Hyphen-Something. One political party demonized her and defeated it with spurious arguments and advertising...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:48 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

And how come we get our public relations asses kicked by Ahmedinejad and Chavez? Couple of kooks make us look like idiots. Nobody, but nobody, in this world takes us seriously or believes us. Hell, I don't even believe our government. That's it, isn't it? We have no credibility. How very sad. What happened in the last 5 years? Hmmm, I just don't know...

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Why is it that we are no longer willing or able to solve the problems that face us: education, health care, and security just to name a few. Is it simply bureaucracy? Corruption? Both? Or is it something else entirely different?

In the end, it boils down to a single factor.

Corporate Personhood.
http://www.ratical.org/corporations/SCvSPR1886.html

It is this ONE decision which has lead to a de-facto fascist oligarcy, which runs this country, which has lead to corporate lobbyists with sufficient funding to buy laws in an ever-widening path of influance, lacking any form of external control and in the face of lack of enforcement of the Sherman and Clayton anti-trust acts.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0844878.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0812484.html

From the very founding of this country, big business has been a dire threat to it's people and it's liberty, from the national banking system to the railroad barons, to the glory days of scum like carnegie, hearst, hughes and the like in their golden age of corporate dominance, and then to the supercorps or Zaibatsu, like mega media companies and super pharmaceuticals we deal with today.

As the checks and balances intended against that power fall, the effect becomes exponential until corporations will dominate every facet of our society, to the point where they will even wage war against each other within our borders and without regard to the population in general - they may even eventually supercede or consume the government itself.

I reccommend Joe Clifford Faust's novel: The Company Man - for a good expression of how unpleasant that world could and would be, although a mediocre book in and of itself.

And if you doubt the invasiveness of corporate power - perform this simple experiment.

Buy three magazines, and watch TV for three hours.
Count how many drug advertisements there are, often for manufactured "syndromes" created only to sell a product (restless leg? overactive bladder?) and then compare that to how many you might have seen in 1980 or 1990 ?

Or, for you younger folks, just count HOW MANY.

Now imagine THOSE people defining law ?
You think compulsory medication isn't going to happen if those folk have the ability to compose, pass, and enforce law, whether of their own, or by-proxy via corporate lobbyists ?

And that is only one facet, only one set, of corporations - and only one set of consequences of their unchecked power, what penalty is a fine when the profit made by breaking the law can pay it fifty times over ?

Tyco, Enron, Microsoft, Citibank, and others countless and smaller, have proven ultimately immoral because a corporation is NOT a person, not a human being, and thus has no moral compass, only profit and loss.

It is because of that factor that they should not have legal personhood, the end result of which becomes clearer every day.

-Frem

Excellent Related Site, btw.
http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:48 PM

TOBEDOG

My thoughts are it all starts with education. Why is it that we are raised on beliefs that worked for our grandparents, it was passed down to our parents then to us and eventually to our kids. Why is it that you can graduate HS and college without being forced to take a class on basic finance. At 18, you can legally go get a loan, credit cards and rack up so much debt it ends you without a chance of ever getting caught up. The number 1 cause for bankruptcy is loss of the primary breadwinner or Lack of Insurance. Why is it, that we will insure our homes, cars, dogs, health without thinking twice. But when it comes to yourself, we don't get it. And when we do, we get what everyone else at work gets. 2 times our annual salary. Example: Canner-Fitzgerald. They where one of the leading Investment Advisor firms in New York City. All of these people made 250k to 7 figures a year but had less than 100k life insurance on themselves. When the towers fell on 9/11, the families received checks for 100k but had a lifestyle of 500k or more. Look, I'm not saying you have to like insurances but know what you have. Its not for you, its for the people you care about. The avg death claim last year was just shy of 12k. 12k doesn't even cover the basic funeral expenses. Life insurance is so cheap, you wouldn't believe it.

Which leads me to retirement. What is retirement? Its having a pot of money set aside that spins off interest every month that you can pay your expenses. How do you like it, that your career tells you when you can retire? How do you like it that your boss tells you when and where you can take a vacation? The company does this by paying you the wage they do. Ask yourself this question, if you needed an extra 1500 dollars a month to accomplish all your dreams and goals financially, do you think they would give it to you? No, they'll laugh you out of the office. Our country is on a crash course with arithmetic. Think about it. Our consumer debt is well over our national debt. We lose the value of the dollar every year due to inflation. 96% of Americans retire at or below the poverty level. The other 4% went and got some education on how money works, planned ahead, and now their olden and golden years are truely that. Not spent going to McDonalds every morning getting a senior coffee and bitching about how health care doesnt work, the president is a loser, we shouldn't be in Iraq, and all this negativity. You don't hear them talking about the vacation to Austrailia with the grandkids do you? These folks aren't the "rich", they are the ones that planned for life. When there insurance doesn't cover the operation, they have money set aside. When their insurance doesn't cover the pills they need,they have money set aside. When a grandchild is struggling to make ends meet at college, they have money set aside.

The point is that we spend way too much time planning what we are going to do this weekend or this years vacation, than we spend planning our futures. Spend some time planning retirement. Go get the education you need to make your retirement goals and protect the ones you care about including yourself.

Now reading what you just read, your prolly gonna blast me on my ideals and logic. But I see people everyday that aren't going to make it. I teach families how to retire when they want to. I sit down with families and teach them the basics of finance. I went out and got answers to all the questions I had because I want the things for my children that I couldn't have when I was little because we couldn't afford it.

The person who said, "Money is the root of all evil, never had any."

Money isnt the root of all evil. Having money with the wrong habits, and beliefs is the root of evil.

"Six men came to kill me one time. The best of 'em carried this. Its a Killhan Full-Bore Auto Lock, customized trigger, double-cartridge thorough-gage. It is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 1:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Insurance - Try GETTING the payout.

Insurance is a scam, let's get it straight and up front, especially legally mandated insurance because it is a "captive market", you have no option to refuse to pay the extortion.

So you pay and pay, and pay some more (just like at the company store) and then when you do file a claim the first thing they do is pay their high powered lawyers with that money to either 'prove' you were at fault and deny your claim, find some loophole to avoid paying your claim, or defend themselves from the inevitable suit when the first two things don't work.

Medical insurance is something I have personal experience with, it's a fraud, a sham, cause if you dare actually try to USE that coverage, they'll dump you in a heartbeat, hell, they'll even dump you retroactively and try to sue YOU to get back money they paid out in the first place.

(Because the LA Times wants personal info to access, i've used alternate links)
http://mparent7777.livejournal.com/12425178.html
http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/private-insurance/
private-insurance-la-times-healthcare.html
(remove space in 2nd link, adjusted for word-wrap)

Again, Corporatism.

And don't even try to shovel that dodge "Education" - explain to me how someone with a college degree that makes them unemployable because now they cost too much to hire is going to pay back that student loan, and how that student loan doesn't add to their debt load like a goddamned boat anchor for what amounts to naught more than a "join the elite" fee, moreso than an effective education ?

How does "Education" reduce inflation's effect on that kid's money ?
How does "Education" reduce that kid's ever increasing tax burden ?

Sorry, but a $40,000 degree for a $27,000 a year job, minus about 31% of that in taxes, doesn't sound like an intelligent investment to me.

Retirement - Yeah, how bout them 401k's eh ?

Or those looted pension plans, yeah - bet THOSE folks are living it up, right ?

Gee, those Corporations sure are swell aren't they ?

Lemme smack you in the face with this little, ugly reality.

In order to "put money away" you have to HAVE money, in order to GET money, you need to make it, and while you're busting ass just trying to barely survive working two jobs at 70+ hours a week, how exactly do you have time to attend college, job training or what have you ?

Those folk you are idolizing are the people who had money in the first place, they 'planned for life' by being born into a wealthy family, unlike the rest of us who actually had to work for our measly income and then hand over a third or more to the taxman, and slapping a student loan on top of that is asinine if you wanna eat sometime that year.

And the whole concept of paper fiat money and "credit" (aka Usury) is a whole different discussion we could have later, but it does factor in there, as without a reputation as a debt-slave, and as a GOOD debt-slave, you don't have "credit" and thus can't GET "credit" - what a nice little catch-22, and run by three .... what ?
Hmm?

Corporations.
And corporations with an evil history at that.

It isn't that people don't understand how finances work, it's that many people have no legal way to survive on the pittance of inflated and devalued currency the Corporation throws them as a bone for their 40 hours, and then after the gov takes it's bite, there's not enough left to live on.

Which quickly leads to robbing peter (credit) to pay paul (utility bills) and the downhill slide into bankruptcy and abject pennilessness, which leads to a cardboard box on the street and death by neglect or exposure.

Now take the tattered shreds of your bogus argument somewhere they might be believed.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 5:48 AM

STORYMARK

I agree with many of your points, Fremdfirma, but I disagree, at least in part, on Education. I grew up in poverty, and have managed to go to college, pay back (most of) my student loans, and have a job that pays, if not a lot, at least enough to live comfortably at this stage in my life.

It's not impossible, but it is difficult - but most worthwhile things are.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 7:35 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I agree with many of your points, Fremdfirma, but I disagree, at least in part, on Education. I grew up in poverty, and have managed to go to college, pay back (most of) my student loans, and have a job that pays, if not a lot, at least enough to live comfortably at this stage in my life.

It's not impossible, but it is difficult - but most worthwhile things are.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I would rather live in a country that has free health care, long lines for toilet paper, and no personal liberties or responsibility. If that's not possible, I'll go where thousands die because of a heat wave.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 8:21 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Insurance is a scam, let's get it straight and up front, especially legally mandated insurance because it is a "captive market", you have no option to refuse to pay the extortion.

Right on, Frem.
And Corporatism is at the root.
Legalized and enforced feudalism of a kind.
We are a nation that prizes individuality, and our individuality if force-fed to us by the Golden Rulers.
At least some of us see this.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 11:29 AM

TOBEDOG

Your reply isn't worth my response.

Go out and read some books.

Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyoski
The Cash Flow Quadrant by Robert Kiyoski
The Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Eker
Missed Fortune 101 by Douglas Andrew
Think and Grow Rich by Napeleon Hill

Do you know what the definition of insanity is:

Doing the same things day after day and expects different results.

"Six men came to kill me one time. The best of 'em carried this. Its a Killhan Full-Bore Auto Lock, customized trigger, double-cartridge thorough-gage. It is my very favorite gun."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 11:45 AM

XGMRFURIOUS

I have some in-laws in Canada, so, from my experience of being in a Canadian emergency room and a US emergency room, i'll choose the US emergency room. Canada's definately seemed like a the place you go to die.

And yes, i have insurance, i take responsibility for myself and my family. I don't need the Clinton's to babysit me.

Luckily for my wife, she was able to fly back to the US for the surgery she needed considering the device she needed was only available in ONE hospital in Toronto, but yet it was available IN THE MEDICAL OFFICE of several doctors back in the States as well as in each hospital.

You get what you pay for. Some people don't want to pay anything at all. I wish them safe journey, i hope you don't get hurt along the way.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 11:48 AM

XGMRFURIOUS

Classic double post.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 12:34 PM

MISBEHAVEN

You make some very valid points. I'm glad that your financial situation enables you to afford insurance, but millions of other people in this country simply can't pay for the additional expense. Currently, I have insurance as well; however, I've had jobs in the past that neither offered insurance nor paid enough of a salary for me to afford insurance on my own. The problem is that the system leaves too many people without access to health care. It not so much a question of people not being willing to pay, rather its a question of them being unable to pay.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 1:08 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, while we're suggesting reading material there TOBE...

A Caveat Against Injustice - Roger Sherman
Usury, destroyer of nations - S. C Mooney
Billions for Bankers, Debts for the People - Sheldon Emry
War is a Racket - Major General Smedley Butler

Unlike the get rich quick books you suggested, mere recycled clones of the same circular logic that assumes you to have significant money to invest in the first place, and doesn't take into account ugly realities like utility bills, vehicle, home and health insurance and the like.

All four of the above have stood the test of time and scrutiny.

My reply 'isn't worth' your response because you don't have one.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, September 25, 2006 2:31 PM

KANEMAN

Why can I buy an additional $50,000 - $100,000 in life insurance for what amounts to pennies a week, but my health insurance is 30 bucks? I never use my health.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:36 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I agree with many of your points, Fremdfirma, but I disagree, at least in part, on Education. I grew up in poverty, and have managed to go to college, pay back (most of) my student loans, and have a job that pays, if not a lot, at least enough to live comfortably at this stage in my life.

It's not impossible, but it is difficult - but most worthwhile things are.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I would rather live in a country that has free health care, long lines for toilet paper, and no personal liberties or responsibility. If that's not possible, I'll go where thousands die because of a heat wave.

and... what point are you making exactly? And how does it relate to my post?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:57 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by XGMrFurious:
Canada's definately seemed like a the place you go to die.

It " seemed" like a place you go to die.

OK,you percieved it that way, from your political bias, and perhaps because you weren't treated as respectfully as you seem to think you decerve.

But did anyone actually die there/then?

Perception can be a basis for choice, but facts are a lot more useful. The Earth is percieved as flat, unless you use specialized observations, but the fact is that it's really a round ball

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:08 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

XGMrFurious: "... the device she needed was only available in ONE hospital in Toronto, but yet it was available IN THE MEDICAL OFFICE of several doctors back in the States as well as in each hospital."

I'm just curious what was the device and what was the surgery. I can't imagine an emergency applicable device available in medical offices. So I suspect the surgery was not a matter of life and death, but elective. In which case, yes, it would have limited availability.

I really hope you reply, as the devil, they say, is in the details. Which you seem to have carefully left out.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:54 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER

This seemed relevant to the conversation:

"Health insurance is twice inflation rate"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/business/4215497.html

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE