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Originally posted by freeradical42:
I don't mean to sound agitated, but there is science out there on this and it bothers me that you're ignoring it.

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You don't want to go toe-to-toe with a biomedical engineer on this. ;)

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Either way, we can rewrite the equation to consider how effective the vaccine is and objecting to the vaccine is *still* a self-interested decision in cases where it has more than zero effectiveness.

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Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
I'd say it's a fair requirement to have to be vaccinated in order to enter public school, unless there's a medical reason for not being able to. If parents don't want to get the child vaccinated then the child can't go to a public school, I think that's fair.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- Altho vaccines have potential horrific side effects, the full-blown disease is worse.

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Originally posted by freeradical42:
You should look up "Measles transmission and vaccine effectiveness during a large outbreak on a densely populated island: implications for vaccination policy."

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Should you be allowed to shoot at someone? ...The answer is- NO- you do NOT have an unconditional limit to do whatever the heck you want.

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FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Vaccinations - The Hidden Truth from Oz

15 speakers, including 5 medical doctors, plus researchers, parents and a registered dog breeder reveal the true, well documented answers to: Was it vaccines that saved us? Do vaccines prevent or cause diseases? Can statistics be misleading? What poisons do vaccinations contain? What damage are vaccines causing? Are childhood diseases really "deadly"? Why does vaccination continue? What are our rights? Can damage be evaluated and countered? What is the true key to immunity? Presents orthodox medical research. Fully informs in just 90 mins. Nothing is safe from the vaccine invasion, not even our genes. They shot first, we asked questions later. Now we know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8610554679207090010&q=vaccines

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FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Origin of Aids

US Govt contracts and patents for the HIV AIDS virus bioweapon, proven by US Congressional Record, US Patent Office, Centers for Disease Creation and Dr Len Horowitz at HealingCelebrations.com.
www.mind-deprogramming.com
www.checktheevidence.com/video/

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"There is no more terrifying example of hubris (self-destructive arrogance) than the Plum Island Animal Disease Research Center. Located just two miles off the tip of Long Island and six miles from the Connecticut coastline, Plum Island is home to a Bio-Safety Level 4 (BSL-4) research facility. The only comparable government facilities in the country are the United States Army laboratory at Fort Detrick, MD, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. Plum Island is specifically engaged in the study of zoonotic diseases. Zoonotic diseases are diseases that can be transmitted from animals to humans, like West Nile, like Lyme disease. Like Ebola."
-Dr Patricia Doyle, PhD
www.rense.com/general67/plum2.htm

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"We believe that within a period of five to ten years, it would be possible to produce a synthetic biological agent that does not naturally exist and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired. Within the next five to ten years, it would probably be possible to make a new infective microorganism which could be different in certain important aspects from any known disease-causing organism. Most importantly, it might be damaging to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease. A research program to explore feasibility could be completed in approximately five years at a cost of $10 million. It is a highly controversial issue and there are many who believe such research should not be undertaken, lest it lead to yet another method of mass killing of large populations."
—Dr. Donald MacArthur, RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, TEST, AND EVALUATION, Department of the Army, Statement of Director, Advanced Research Project Agency, Statement of Director, Defense Research and Engineering, SYNTHETIC BIOLOGICAL AGENTS HOUSE BILL 15090, UNITED STATES SENATE LIBRARY, U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, Department of Defense Appropriations for 1970. Hearings before a Subcommittee of the APPROPRIATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Ninety-First Congress, first session, July 1, 1969, testimony on June 9, 1969 (FULL TEXT HTML -- JPG Image Scan of HB 15090)
www.umoja-research.com/aids_murder_docs.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/LikingLArry/IsTheAIDSVirusMan/

"PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA - The invention relates to a novel pathogenic mycoplasma isolated from patients with Aquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) or patients dying from diseases and symptoms resembling AIDS diseases. The invention further relates to a variety of vaccinations against mycoplasma infection in humans and/or animals."
—United States Patent, US Patent Office, Patent Number 5,242,820, Inventor Stryh-Cheng Lo and American Registry of Pathology in Washington DC, Filed June 6, 1991, continuation date June 18, 1986
www.gulfwarvets.com/mycoplas.htm

"The true history of the origin of AIDS can be traced throughout the 20th Century and back to 1878. Two years later, in 1889, we were able to identify 'mycoplasmas', a transmissible agent, that is now found at the heart of human diseases, including (AIDS) HIV. In 1893, we strengthened the Federal Quarantine Act and suddenly there was an explosion of polio. In 1898, we knew we could use mycoplasma to cause epidemics, because we were able to do so in cattle, and we saw it in tobacco plants. In 1899, the U.S. Congress began investigating 'leprosy [mycoplasma] in the United States'. In 1902, We organized a 'Station for Experimental Evolution' and we were able to identify diseases of an ethnic nature. In 1904, we used mycoplasma to cause an epidemic in horses. On April 29 of that year the United States passed a 'FEDERAL QUARANTINE ACT'. In 1910, we used mycoplasma to cause an epidemic in fowl/birds. In 1917, we formed the 'Federation of the American Society for Experimental Biology' (FASEB). In 1918, the influenza virus killed millions of unsuspecting. It was a flu virus modified with a bird mycoplasma for which human primates had no 'acquired immunity'. In 1921, lead eugenics philosopher, Betrand Russell, publicly supported the 'necessity for "organized' plagues" against the Black population. In 1931, we secretly tested African Americans and we tested AIDS in sheep. In 1935, we learned we could crystallize the tobacco mycoplasma, and it would remain infectious. In 1943, we officially began our bio-warfare program. Shortly thereafter, we were finding our way to New Guinea to study mycoplasma in humans. In 1945, we witnessed the greatest influx of foreign [NAZI and Japanese] scientists in history into the U.S. biological program. Operation Paperclip will live in infamy as one of the darkest programs of a twisted parallel government fixated on genocide. In 1949, Dr. Bjorn Sigurdsson isolates the VISNA virus. Visna is man made and shares some 'unique DNA' with HIV. In 1955, they were able to artificially assemble the tobacco mosaic virus. Mycoplasmas will forever be at the heart of the U.S. biological warfare program. In 1957, future U.S. president, Rep Gerald Ford and others gave the U.S. Pentagon permission to aggressively deploy offensive biological agents. There are no recorded cases of AIDS prior to the 1957 creation of 'Special Operation-X.' (The SOX) program served as the immediate prototype program for the Special Virus program to begin in 1962. By 1960, Nikita Kruschev had been let in on the biological weapon. His 1960 statement will long reflect the arrogance of the secret blend of communism and democracy. The two countries would go to a November 1972 agreement to cull the Black Population. Progress Report # 8 at 104 - 106 proves Dr. Robert Gallo was secretly working on the development of AIDS with full support of the sector of the U.S. government that seeks to kill its citizens. Dr. Gallo [awarded the Nobel Prize for 'discovering' the 'HIV/AIDS virus' in 1984] can not explain why he excluded his role as a 'project officer' for the Special Virus program from his biographical book. Dr. Gallo's early work and discoveries will finally be viewed in relation to the flowchart. We now know where every experiment fits into the flowchart. The 'research logic' is irrefutable evidence of a federal "Manhattan-style project" to develop a 'contagious' cancer that 'selectively' kills. Dr. Gallo's 1971 paper is identical to his 1984 AIDS announcement. Progress Report #8 at 273 - 286 proves we gave AIDS to monkeys. Since 1962, the United States and Dr. Robert Gallo have been inoculating monkeys and re-releasing them back into the wild. Thus, even government scientists are baffled that both HIV-1 and HIV-II would 'suddenly emerge' from two distinct monkey ancestral relatives during the last 100 years. A 1999 Japanese study will ultimately prove the Man to Monkey origin of Monkey AIDS. The monkey experiments summary definitively proves Monkey AIDS is also man-made. In 1972, the United States and the Soviet Union entered into a biological agreement that would signal the death knell for the Black Population. The 1972 agreement for collaboration and cooperation in the development of offensive biological agents is still U. S. policy. In 1973, we find that world scientist, Garth Nicolson reports on his project, 'Role of the Cell Surface in Escape From Immunological Surveillance.' His report is accompanied by seven published papers. Dr. Nicolson worked in conjunction with the Special Virus program from 1972 until 1978. Dr. Nicolson is considered by some to be Dr. Gallo's "West Coast" counterpart. It is strongly held that because of Dr. Nicolson, Dr. Robert Gallo and Dr. Luc Montagnier would secretly meet in Southern California to coordinate what they would and would not say about the special virus development program. In 1974, Furher Henry Kissinger releases his NSSM-200 (U.S. Plan to Address Overpopulation). It is the only issue of discussion at the World Population Conference in Bucharest, Romania.  The men in the shadows had won, the whole world agrees to secretly cull Africa's population. Today it is Africa and other undesirables. Tomorrow it may be you. In 1975, President Gerald Ford signs National Security Defense Memorandum #314. The United States implements the Kissinger NSSM-200. In 1977, Dr. Robert Gallo and the top Soviet Scientists meet to discuss the proliferation of the 15,000 gallons of AIDS. They attach AIDS as complement to the Small pox vaccine for Africa, and the 'experimental' hepatitis B vaccine for Manhattan. According to authors June Goodfield and Alan Cantwell, it is Batch #751 that was administered in New York to thousands of innocent people. Soon there will be no more Black people and a confused military, older White people will start suddenly dying and you still won't get it. Be here now for us, give us a chance to be there for you. Suddenly, just as President Nixon had predicted, there was explosive death. On September 28, 1998 I filed suit against the United States for the 'creation', 'production' and 'proliferation' of AIDS. On November 7, 2000, the appeals court agreed with the lower court and held AIDS bioengineering as 'frivolous' [appealed to US Supreme Court]. The world continues to wait for the court to rule on the resubmitted issues. The court can not continue to simply brush aside our experts and the government's flowchart. I have been asked to give my perspective with regard to the federal program MK-NAOMI . MK-NAOMI is the code for the development of AIDS. The 'MK' portion stands for the two co-authors of the AIDS virus, Robert Manaker and Paul Kotin. The 'NAOMI' portion stands for 'Negroes are Only Momentary Individuals.' Our society is structured to hide crimes committed by the state, while punishing citizens for minor indiscretions. Their strategy focuses on the general confusion they can create via manipulation of the media. They are very good at what they do. We must become more focused in our continued presentation of the flowchart. The flowchart is the absolute missing link in proving the existence of a coordinated research program to develop a cancer virus that depletes the immune system. New diseases do not create old illnesses. We have found the origin of AIDS, it is us."
—Boyd E. Graves, J.D., attorney-at-law, graduate US Naval Academy at Annapolis, The History of the Development of AIDS, Chapter Excerpt from "State Origin: The Evidence of the Laboratory Birth of AIDS"
www.boydgraves.com/timeline/

"This is a huge scandal that absolutely dwarfs Watergate. The type of mycoplasma we identified was highly unusual and it almost certainly couldn't occur naturally. It has one gene from the HIV-1 virus—but only one gene. This meant that it almost certainly was an artificially modified microbe—altered purposely by scientists! When we looked at the history of mycoplasma research we found that the military had funded mycoplasma 'vaccine testing' in a Texas prison well before the Gulf War. Ths testing had been done by a biotech firm in Houston. When we checked with the prison we learned that many of the prioners involved—plus prison guards and family members—were currently ill with the same symptoms as Gulf War syndrome. Further, we were able to study samples of these prisoners' blood and found they were infected with the same unique mycoplasma that was infecting Gulf War veterans!"
—Dr. Garth Nicolson ( Institute for Molecular Medicine), National Enquirer, "Gulf War G.I.s Poisoned by American Germ Weapons - Scientist Blows Lid Off Huge Govt. Cover-up," April 2, 1996
www.immed.org/illness/clinical_testing.html

"A generation ago, people trusted their doctors blindly and implicitly. The personal bonds people used to form with their doctors have largely been replaced with the cold hard contemporary reality that medicine has become a $multi-billion per year business with little room for compassion. The healthcare market place is not kind and people have lost trust. Iatrogeny plays a large and ugly role in this. A recent study published in The Journal of The American Medical Association (2000:284:94) by Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, showed that in the U.S. there are 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes, placing iatrogeny as the third leading cause of death in the U.S., second only to heart disease and cancer. The scary part is that this does not include disabilities and disorders; just deaths in hospitalized patients. In any event, when one ponders that more than four times as many people die in one year from doctors' mistakes than died in the entire Vietnam War, one is aghast at why this information isn't making headlines or why huge think tanks funded by medicopolitical interests haven't formed. We have the American Heart Association to address heart disease, Richard Nixon's "War on Cancer," and even groups like "Mothers Against Drunk Driving." Organizations have been formed to address almost every sort of issue, save iatrogeny. Many believe that Barbara Starfield's study cited earlier is just the tip of the iceberg. After all, the study only looked at hospitalized patients. What of the in home and outpatient errors? There are more people to consider in these groups, and certainly more iatrogeny. Could it be that iatrogeny is the leading cause of death in the U.S.? In the World? At any rate, the iatrogenic holocaust makes World War II deaths pale in comparison. Murder Or Mistake? The fine line between murder or mistake is a hot potato. If you saw your neighbors being killed one by one or en masse, yet did nothing about it, or took up for the killers, you could be guilty of "accessory to murder" or "accessory to murder after the fact." One could even make the argument for a global elitist plan at population control allowing iatrogeny to gain such momentum. Regardless of etiology, Iatrogeny is real. It is rampant and far from being under control. This author believes that 225,000 deaths every year may be an example of when mistakes cross over to the darkness of negligence. If so, then we are witnessing the greatest holocaust to befall mankind ever. I leave you with my own definition of a freshly coined word:

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Iatrogenocide - [Gk, iatros, physician, genein, to produce, cide, killing] The extermination of a population in a systematic fashion through medical error.

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—Dr. John Doe, Journal of Degenerative Disease, February/March 2002: 3(3rd); pages 37-38; Idaho Observer, reposted by CampaignForTruth.com, "Quarter-Million Doctor-Induced Deaths Annually: Iatrogenocide?" March 2002
www.campaignfortruth.com/Eclub/130902/idahoobserverdeathbydocs.htm

"The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5) Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate of 3 million multiplied by the 14% fatality rate he used in 1994 produces an annual death rate of 420,000 for drug errors and medical errors combined. Using this number instead of Lazorou's 106,000 drug errors and the Institute of Medicine 's (IOM) estimated 98,000 annual medical errors would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths annually. Our estimated 10-year total of 7.8 million iatrogenic* deaths is more than all the casualties from all the wars fought by the US throughout its entire history. An estimated 164 million people—more than half of the total US population—receive unneeded medical treatment over the course of a decade. What's iatrogenesis? From the Greek roots iatros = doctor & genesis = caused: DRUG IATROGENESIS -- Prescription drugs constitute the major treatment modality of scientific medicine. With the discovery of the 'germ theory,' medical scientists convinced the public that infectious organisms were the cause of illness. Finding the 'cure' for these infections proved much harder than anyone imagined. From the beginning, chemical drugs promised much more than they delivered. But far beyond not working, the drugs also caused incalculable side effects. The drugs themselves, even when properly prescribed, have side effects that can be fatal, as Lazarou's study showed. But human error can make the situation even worse. As few as 5% and no more than 20% of iatrogenic acts are ever reported. This implies that if medical errors were completely and accurately reported, we would have an annual iatrogenic death toll much higher than 783,936. In 1994, Leape said his figure of 180,000 medical mistakes resulting in death annually was equivalent to three jumbo-jet crashes every two days. Our considerably higher figure is equivalent to six jumbo jets are falling out of the sky each day."
—Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; Dorothy Smith, PhD, Life Extension Magazine, "Death by Medicine", March 2004 (plus 1.5-Million annual aborticides in USA)
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

"Eugenics is the science of improving hereditary qualities by socially controlling human reproduction. In 1927, the eugenics movement reached the height of its popularity when the U.S. Supreme Court, in Buck v. Bell, held that it was constitutional to involuntarily sterilize the developmentally disabled, the insane, or the uncontrollably epileptic. Oliver Wendell Holmes, supported by Louis Brandeis and six other justices, wrote the opinion."
—Planned Parenthood ® Federation of America, "Margaret Sanger - Sanger and Eugenics"
www.plannedparenthood.org/about/thisispp/sanger.html

"It seems to me from my experience . . . in North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas, that while the colored Negroes have great respect for white doctors, they can get closer to their own members and more or less lay their cards on the table. . . . They do not do this with the white people, and if we can train the Negro doctor at the clinic, he can go among them with enthusiasm and with knowledge, which, I believe, will have far-reaching results. . . . His work, in my opinion, should be entirely with the Negro profession and the nurses, hospital, social workers, as well as the County's white doctors. His success will depend upon his personality and his training by us. The minister's work is also important, and also he should be trained, perhaps by the Federation, as to our ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs."
—Margaret Sanger (1883-1966), founder of Planned Parenthood and editor of The Birth Control Review from 1917 to 1938, letter to Clarence J. Gamble, M.D., Planned Parenthood ® Federation of America, "Margaret Sanger - Sanger and Eugenics", 1939
www.plannedparenthood.org/about/thisispp/sanger.html

"During the Nazi era, so-called "euthanasia programs" were established for handicapped and mentally ill children and adults. Organized killings of an estimated 70,000 German citizens took place at killing centers and in psychiatric institutions. Nurses were active participants and killed over 10,000 people in these involuntary "euthanasia programs". After the war was over, most of the nurses were never punished for these crimes against humanity although some nurses were tried along with the physicians they assisted. One such trial was of 14 nurses and was held in Munich in 1965. Although some of these nurses reported that they struggled with a guilty conscience, others did not see anything wrong with their actions and believed that they were releasing these patients from their suffering. "The idea of ending 'lives not worth living' did not begin with the Nazis, but had been discussed in the legal and medical literatures since the end of the First World War", with supportive articles appearing in both European and American literature. It became compulsory to register all "malformed" newborn children with the Reich Committee. The Reich Committee for Research on Hereditary Diseases and Constitutional Susceptibility to Severe Diseases "was an organization for the killing of children who were born mentally deficient or bodily deformed. When the Public Health Offices were notified of a decision they were to arrange for the child's admission to one of approximately thirty inpatient pediatric clinics. At the specialized centers, children who were designated by the Reich Committee for euthanasia were killed shortly after arrival by medication or were starved to death. In the pediatric unit of Haar, for example, 332 children died of deliberate starvation or by an overdose of Luminal [Phenobarbital]. This drug was mixed into the children's food every morning and night until they became unconscious and developed pneumonia. Some were also given injections of morphine and scopolamine. The nursing staff of the pediatric unit of Haar was led by a senior nurse, Emma D., and two younger colleagues, Emma L. and Maria S. They were forced to swear an oath of loyalty, pledging eternal silence regarding what went on in the clinic, under pain of death. Like many nurses who worked in these clinics, they received a 25RM-per-month (approximately $80 US) supplementary payment, know pejoratively as 'Schmutzgeld' (dirty money). The doctors sometimes received a 250RM (approximately $800 US) Christmas bonus. In some clinics (notoriously the Kalmenhof at Idstein), the tensions of the job were soothed by a visit to the wine cellars to mark every fiftieth killing with copious amounts of wine and cider. In 1939, Hitler issued an order to expand the euthanasia program to "the worthless lives of seriously ill mental patients" which would "result in certain savings in terms of hospitals, doctors and nursing staff". The organization went by the name "Aktion T-4". Six killing centers were set up in existing psychiatric hospitals. In 1941, Hadamar "celebrated the cremation of its ten-thousandth patient in a special ceremony, where everyone in attendance - secretaries, nurses, and psychiatrists - received a bottle of beer for the occasion". Although the children were killed with injections or starvation, these methods were not efficient for the large number of adults at the killing centers. In these locations, gas was used. Patients were transported by bus from local and regional hospitals to the killing centers. "At the killing center, the arriving patients were met by the staff and led to the reception room by a male or female nurse, who might have accompanied them on their trip". Patients were examined individually by a physician, photographed, and measured. They were then taken to gas chambers which were disguised as shower rooms. "The patients were already prepared for the showers because, while they were undressing, the nurses had told them that they would be bathed" (Friedlander, 1995, p. 95). "Most patients accepted the nurses' explanation that they were going to the showers..." By 1941, more than 70,000 patients from German mental hospitals had been killed. Later the killing centers were used for the killing of selected (healthy normal) concentration camp prisoners in the "Special Treatment 14f13" euthanasia program. During the "wild" euthanasia phase, handicapped patients that were to be killed at the killing centers arrived by transport, often in the middle of the night. The staff selected for killing patients who were unable to work as well as "patients who caused extra work for the nurses, those who were deaf-mute, ill, obstructive, or undisciplined, and anyone else who was simply annoying". Those selected to be killed were "taken to so-called killing rooms where physicians and nurses killed them using orally-administered drug overdoses or lethal injections." Families were notified of the deaths of these relatives and could receive an urn of ashes purported to be those of their loved one. In reality, the urns contained combined ashes of many people from the crematorium. When the round was finished, the patients selected by Dr. Mootz had to be taken to the extra room. Generally the nurse on duty had to undress the patients and take them to the extra room. Depending on the circumstances, there were different methods. If the patient was very confused or ill to such an extent that she didn't think about it, after having her undress, I just took her to the extra room. If the patients were in their right minds and could see through everything, we told them that their health condition had improved in a manner that they only would have to take a cure in order to get discharged. The patients believed us in most cases and undressed themselves voluntarily, so we didn't have any difficulties with them. We really wanted to make the last way as easy as possible for the selected patients. In this connection I remember that one patient was a strict Catholic and the last day she asked for a priest to get the last sacraments. I remember very clearly and can say with absolute certainty that the priest was informed before the killing and that the patient, who at least that day was completely in her right mind, got the last sacraments from the priest. I can't remember that I ever appointed a younger nurse to help me. Young nurses deliberately weren't appointed to participate in the killings because we feared they couldn't be able to keep their mouths shut.""
-Professor Susan Benedict, College of Nursing,
Medical University of South Carolina, Research on Medical Ethics and the Holocaust, Research Institute of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Western Journal of Nursing Research, "Nurses' Participation in the Nazi Euthanasia Programs," April 1999
www.baycrest.org/Winter%202002/article4.htm

"Harold Shipman, the [Jewish] British family doctor who murdered more than 200 of his patients to become one of the worst serial killers of all time, hanged himself in his prison cell on the eve of his 58th birthday, prison officials said. A prison source, speaking on condition of anonymity said Shipman 'used a bed sheet as a ligature from the bars on his windows' in his single occupant cell to take his life. Shipman was sentenced to life imprisonment in January 2000 for the murder of 15 female patients between 1975 and 1998, and faced no prospect of parole. Two years later an inquiry concluded that he was responsible for the deaths by lethal injection of at least another 200 mostly female and elderly patients at his greater Manchester area practice. Most of Shipman's victims died suddenly without having experienced any life-threatening symptoms. Home Secretary David Blunkett ruled in June 2002 that Shipman should never be released from jail—joining a select few prisoners in Britain who have been told they would remain in prison until their dying day. In her report in July 2002, Judge Janet Smith, who chaired the inquiry into the physician who came to be known as 'Dr Death,' said Shipman may have been addicted to killing. They were, by and large, elderly women who died after being given a lethal injection, usually of morphine, while Shipman visited them in their homes. The Smith inquiry had looked into a total of 887 deaths, and it concluded that he had killed 200 people, in addition to the 15 for whom he had been convicted. It added that there was a 'real suspicion' that Shipman may have been responsible for an additional 45 deaths. 'He betrayed (patients') trust in a way and to an extent that I believe is unparalleled in history,' Smith said."
—Reuters, "Britain's worst serial killer 'Dr Death' dies in prison," January 13, 2004
www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1024925.htm

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Abbie Bernstein: "Do you believe a government can be shamed into or out of what it's doing by the actions of individuals?"

Joss Whedon: "The idea was to say that people can make a difference, they can show the wrongs that are being done. They can speak out against them and make people aware of them. They can even create giant scandals. Sometimes they can topple governments. The point is that the truth is always more important than the power structure, and whether you make a dent or not, the fact that you succeeded in trying is a victory."

-Serenity - The Official Visual Companion

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Originally posted by freeradical42:
Well, now that PN has weighed in on the anti-inoculation side, I think it doesn't stand a chance of being credible.

A shame.

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I'm sure that PN feels a prick most of the time but that's another story.

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Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

Includes The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist

by H. Michael Sweeney
www.MKZine.com
Spring/Summer 2003

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

www.whale.to/m/disin.html
www.911review.org/Wiki/RulesOfDisinformation.shtml
www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html

Examples & response:
www.proparanoid.net/truth.htm

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I'm sure that PN feels a prick most of the time but that's another story.

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Originally posted by freeradical42:

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I'm sure that PN feels a prick most of the time but that's another story.

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Don't feed the troll.

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FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Vaccinations - The Hidden Truth from Oz

15 speakers, including 5 medical doctors, plus researchers, parents and a registered dog breeder reveal the true, well documented answers to: Was it vaccines that saved us? Do vaccines prevent or cause diseases? Can statistics be misleading? What poisons do vaccinations contain? What damage are vaccines causing? Are childhood diseases really "deadly"? Why does vaccination continue? What are our rights? Can damage be evaluated and countered? What is the true key to immunity? Presents orthodox medical research. Fully informs in just 90 mins. Nothing is safe from the vaccine invasion, not even our genes. They shot first, we asked questions later. Now we know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8610554679207090010&q=vaccines

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Bush Gang and Bill Clinton-Blythe Rockefeller worshipping Molech/Lucifer/Satan at Bohemian Grove in Monte Rio, California on Summer Solstice. Photo copyright Bohemian Club annual yearbook
http://www.lonelantern.org/bohemian_grove.html

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Dark Secrets Inside Bohemian Grove
Original full-length version - Infiltration of Jewish Bohemian Grove presidential compound and homosexual nudist colony that performs "mock" human sacrifice to 50-foot-tall idol of Molech - Where Bush Gang and Bill Clinton-Blythe III (Rockefeller) vacation every year to worship Satan and run nekked in the woods with 3,000 homosexual world dictators - Undercover video by Infowars.com
http://www.archive.org/details/DSIBG
http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Dark Secrets Inside Bohemian Grove and The Order of Death
Two documentaries in one - An employee of Bohemian Grove presidential compound used undercover video to capture the 50-foot-tall idol of Molech and "mock" human sacrifice up close and in broad daylight - Undercover video by Infowars.com
http://www.lastingnetworks.com/alex/

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Boners at Bohemian Grove
Music video by Counter Coup and John Lee
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6737.php

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Snuff kiddie porn at Bohemian Grove
Alex Jones of Infowars.com interviews Senator John DeCamp author of The Franklin Coverup, music by Counter Coup and Bohemian Club
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6737.php

Moloch.
an ancient Phoenician and Ammonite god, to whom children were sacrificed by burning.
-Webster's New World Dictionary

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people."
-Leviticus 20:1-5, Christian Bible KJV

"And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon."
-1 Kings 11:6-7, Christian Bible KJV

"Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
-Jeremiah 32:32-35, Christian Bible KJV

"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
-Leviticus 18:21-22, Christian Bible KJV

And the king sent, and they gathered unto him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem. And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel. And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech. And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem. Jehoahaz was twenty and three years old when he began to reign; and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD. And Jehoiakim gave the silver and the gold to Pharaoh; but he taxed the land to give the money according to the commandment of Pharaoh: he exacted the silver and the gold of the people of the land, of every one according to his taxation, to give it unto Pharaohnechoh. Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign; And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his fathers had done."
-2 Kings 23:1-37

"But it's not just the ratty part of town. The upper class in San Francisco is that way. The Bohemian Grove, which I attend from time to time - it is the most faggy goddamn thing that you would ever imagine with that San Francisco crowd."
-President Richard "Dick" Nixon, White House audiotape, Nixon Presidential Library, 1971
http://www.prisonplanet.com/032604nixontape.html (audio download)

More photos and news from Bohemian Grove:
http://www.nwowatcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=152
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove


Bush Gang and Bill Clinton-Blythe Rockefeller performing "mock" human sacrifice to 50-foot tall idol of Molech/Lucifer/Satan at Bohemian Grove. That's a "live" human body burning as it screams in agony over the loudspeakers. Photo copyright Bohemian Club annual yearbook
http://www.43places.com/places/view/379646

"In the event that I am reincarnated I would like to return as a deadly virus in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation."
—His Royal Highness Prince Philip, husband Queen Elizabeth of Britain (aka Queen of Babylon at Bohemian Grove), father-in-law of Princess Diana, from autobiography, Down to Earth: Speeches and Writings of His Royal Highness Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, on the Relationship of Man With His Environment, in chapter titled, "His Royal Virus"
www.amazon.com

GEORGE W. BUSH reigns at the White House -- because he has more royal blood than Al Gore. And because of his noble heritage, Burke's Peerage, the bible of British aristocracy, correctly predicted Bush's victory before Election Day. "Governor Bush is related to more imperial royal and noble houses than any previous President," said Burke's Peerage publishing director Harold Brooks-Baker. FAST FACT! "He's closely related to every European monarch on and off the throne, including a close kinship with all members of the British House of Windsor, making him a distant cousin of the Queen and Prince Charles."
—National Enquirer (CIA owned and operated by OSS/CIA agent Alexander Pope - #1 propaganda value at every checkout line in USA), "BUSH'S WIN: IT'S ALL IN HIS ROYAL BLOOD!", December 28, 2000

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by freeradical42:
You should look up "Measles transmission and vaccine effectiveness during a large outbreak on a densely populated island: implications for vaccination policy."

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The abstract is useless for evaluating methodology. For example, it says, "MMR vaccine effectiveness was 92% (95% confidence interval [CI], 67%-98%) for 1 dose and 95% (95% CI, 82%-98%) for 2 doses." Where did they get that number? That makes all the difference, doesn't it?

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ucp/WebIntegrationServlet?call=Conten
tWeblet&url=http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v42n3/37212/37212.html?erFrom=1700901065199949638Guest¤t_page=content

Since I don't want to pay $15 for the full text of this article, I will have to go to the library and get it. I'll get back to you on this when I've read it.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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A conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking.
-- Arthur Bloch

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Originally posted by SignyM:
IF your children get the disease the effects WILL be worse than from vaccination.

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A few years ago, my husband came home one day with a cough. Next day, I and our 2 yr old daughter were coughing too. The cough in my husband and me were mild, and went away after a few days. My daughter's cough quickly turned into a series of spasms punctuated by a gag reflex. We had all contracted pertussis. Had it not been for my daughter's symptoms, we would have been none the wiser. My 2 yr old was completely fine in between coughs, though the coughs themselves were very uncomfortable. She had it for a few weeks. I kept her home for 3 months, though my husband went to work, and I went grocery shopping. The biggest suffering caused by pertussis was lack of a social life for 3 months.- CTS

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So again, I respectfully disagree with you that the disease WILL be worse than the vaccination. I have talked to quite a few others whose children have had pertussis, and while it was not fun or comfortable, it was not dangerous at all. Many educated parents and professionals believe the only true danger pertussis poses is to very young infants, whose respiratory systems may succumb to the spasms. CTS

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Just because I don't care about society as much as I love my children does not mean I don't care about society at all. I prefer to find solutions for society that don't risk the health of my children, or anyone else's children.-CTS

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I offered the example of the mother with 2 autistic children (whose symptoms started shortly after vaccination) who doesn't want her third vaccinated. She would rather risk measles, mumps, and rubella (which come and go) than another case of autism (which is permanently disabling). From what I am hearing on this board, most folks here concur with authorities in denying her that choice.-CTS

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If there is a way to protect them without risking my children, I would gladly do so. But I am not going to pretend their lives are worth more than my children's lives. And that's assuming the pertussis vaccine prevents transmission, which is questionable given the increasing number of subclinical pertussis that is occurring.-CTS

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Mad Scientists Resurrect Killer Flu

By Gina Kolata
The New York Times
OCTOBER 6, 2005

Two teams of federal and university scientists announced Wednesday that they have resurrected the 1918 influenza virus, the cause of one of history's most deadly epidemics, and have found that, unlike the viruses that caused more recent flu pandemics of 1957 and 1968, it was actually a bird flu that jumped directly to humans.

The work, being published in the journals Nature and Science, involved getting the complete genetic sequence of the 1918 virus, using techniques of molecular biology to synthesize it, and then using it to infect mice and human lung cells in a specially equipped secure lab at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.

In a joint statement, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said: "The new studies could have an immediate impact by helping scientist focus on detecting changes in the evolving H5N1 virus that might make widespread transmission among humans more likely."

www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/05/news/flu.php


1918 Influenza Pandemic Caused by Highly Conserved Viruses with Two Receptor-Binding Variants

*Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Rockville, Maryland, USA; †National Institute for Medical Research, London, United Kingdom; ‡Queen Mary’s School of Medicine and Dentistry, London, United Kingdom; and §Retroscreen Virology, Ltd., London, United Kingdom
www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no10/02-0789.htm

"The art of warfare will be vastly different than it is today. 'Combat' likely will take place in new dimensions. Advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."
—Rabbi Dov Zakheim, Dick Cheney, "Jeb" Bush, Sir Donald "I Sold WMD Bioweapons To Saddam Hussein" Rumsfeld Knight of the British Empire, Jewish Project for a New American Century Corporation (PNAC), Rebuilding America's Defenses, 1999
www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

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Centers for Disease Control Director Julie Gerberding has plan to 'save' us from 'bird flu'

by Dominus Noster

http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/nucleus/media/rsscache/20060522-juli
egerberdingwitch.JPG
Dr. Julie Gerberding pictured above.
Dr. Gerberding says, "Trust me"

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Centers for Disease Control Director Julie Gerberding has helped create a plan to save the world from the "bird flu." With a smile on her face, she talked about the possibility that the government may need to declare martial law, and people like herself would get more power and funding if the "bird flu" ever struck.

"How awesome that would be if there was an actual bird flu threat, since I would get so much more money and power, and I would feel important," said Dr. Julie Gerberding. "Right now, the idea is to scare everybody into trusting the government and big pharma as their saviors. Every time I open my mouth about the bird flu, my pharma stocks surge."

When one reporter asked Dr. Gerberding how she can make such statements about how scary the bird flu is, since no bird flu test even exists, Gerberding had security promptly remove the reporter. Dr. Gerberding then spoke about the need to ensure that everybody gets a nice bird flu vaccine needle with their name written all over it, which the government would provide since the government loves everybody so much and cares about whether or not we all live.

Even though the government routinely uses vaccines on its own military that have caused a plurality of health problems in hundreds of thousands of service members, and then does nothing to address their problems after the fact, Dr. Julie Gerberding insisted that we can "trust" the government on this one.

"I am Dr. Julie Gerberding. I know what I am talking about. I work for the government. You can trust me and the government on this issue. We know what is best," said Gerberding.

www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=1720

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Originally posted by rue:
Still going down the thread,

CTS,

Polio vaccines ARE effective and have eradicated polio in countries with mass vaccination. Even given your statistics, the FACT is that there has been no outbreaks of paralytic polio in the US since mass vaccination. What you have indicated to me is that you're willing to write off the numbers of people who were permanently paralyzed before the vaccine. "1977 - The National Health Interview Survey reports that there are 254,000 persons living in the United States who had been paralyzed by polio. Some estimates place the number at more than 600, 000." http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm

I'm all for debate, but, really now. Do you not consider this a significant benefit? Or did this major fact escape your statistical 'analysis'?

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FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Vaccinations - The Hidden Truth from Oz

15 speakers, including 5 medical doctors, plus researchers, parents and a registered dog breeder reveal the true, well documented answers to: Was it vaccines that saved us? Do vaccines prevent or cause diseases? Can statistics be misleading? What poisons do vaccinations contain? What damage are vaccines causing? Are childhood diseases really "deadly"? Why does vaccination continue? What are our rights? Can damage be evaluated and countered? What is the true key to immunity? Presents orthodox medical research. Fully informs in just 90 mins. Nothing is safe from the vaccine invasion, not even our genes. They shot first, we asked questions later. Now we know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8610554679207090010&q=vaccines

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Select to view spoiler:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why is it that I suddenly feel trapped between a Klan lynch mob and a Panthers meeting ?

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So, where's the independant, peer reviewed, proper scientific method study ?

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There also exists some evidence, referenced through the State of California DDS, of a rather sharp drop in Autism cases *after* Thimerosal was removed from common vaccines - no scientific study exists, but the numbers are there.
http://www.dds.ca.gov/autism/autism_main.cfm

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And that ever so "safe" flu vaccine, which everyone assured you was so safe.. ain't.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/129/117515.htm

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Here's a hint, I don't have an axe to grind, nor am I guessing, when I make blunt statements, I just expect people to actually do their own investigation and make their own judgement calls - if you come to a different conclusion, that's you.

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Sure no mandatory vaccinations, but if YOUR choice leads to YOU getting that disease your health service or medical insurer is under no obligation to pay for your treatment. If a vaccination is provided I see no reason why other people should foot the bill for your decision. Maybe you can provide me with a reason why they should?

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I think there should be research into it, but anyone saying there is SOME evidence is merely following a post hoc analysis.

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I thought parents should have the right to choose to have single vaccinations rather than MMR if they wished, but that since MMR was offered by the NHS they should pay for the single injections themselves. If they make the choice, they pay for it.

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You turn up and immediately question my decency because you've decided what you want my position to be and you've decided that I don't know what I'm talking about and you think you have a right to talk about “wasting your time on this imminent flamefest”? You're playing more than your part in creating it.

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Though of course if I do, for once, bother to think for myself and come to a different conclusion its because I have no Human decency, right?

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So what, you're questioning the link between obesity, heart disease and so on and Junk food?

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YOUR life, YOUR decisions, so YOU take the responsibility for them.

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I'm actually QUITE interested in facts and so I would appreciate your specific input. I agree with you completely on some things. I DON'T trust the FDA as currently formed. I linked several New England Journal of Medicine articles which were quite explicit in what's wrong with the approval process and criteria. It's unconscionable. But I believe the answer is to demand more from a govenment that claims to represent us.

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(a 373% relative increase)

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I did look through the site and didn't find the numbers you were referring to. What I found was that autism has skyrocketed without any letup. So if you could post a link to the specific data intended, I would appreciate it.

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The other thing I wanted to point out is that mass vaccination is an effort in epidemiology, a branch of medicine you may not be familiar with. And that you seem to be demanding absolute guarantees, which don't exist anywhere in this life.

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Originally posted by rue:
Without government funding the only research would be privately funded and thus liable to bias.

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To focus my question more - how would you feel about an empowered FDA that really could do independent research in the interests of protecting citizens?

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Originally posted by citizen:
CTS:
I understand you're probably ignoring me, but if you are not what are your opinions on what I have said?

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Originally posted by rue:
At the same time there was a a 373% relative increase in autism, there was a 14% relative increase in MMR vaccination. That was the point of the article - the two weren't ratioed in a way that would indicate cause and effect.

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Originally posted by rue:
Even given your statistics, the FACT is that there has been no outbreaks of paralytic polio in the US since mass vaccination. What you have indicated to me is that you're willing to write off the numbers of people who were permanently paralyzed before the vaccine. "1977 - The National Health Interview Survey reports that there are 254,000 persons living in the United States who had been paralyzed by polio....

Do you not consider this a significant benefit? Or did this major fact escape your statistical 'analysis'?

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Originally posted by rue:
Polio vaccines did eradicate polio. How do I know this? B/c there are no longer hundreds of thousands of people in the US with paralysis or who have died from it.

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Before the vaccine, anyone with non-paralytic symptoms and anyone with paralysis lasting at least 24 hours was diagnosed with polio. After the vaccine was introduced in 1955, the diagnosis was changed to only paralytic cases lasting at least 30 days. The good majority of polio cases, those with nonparalytic symptoms, were renamed something else. A big fraction of paralytic cases recover within days to 2 weeks, so this subset was automatically eliminated as polio cases as well.

People who would have been diagnosed with polio before 1995 were now labeled with Coxsackie virus or aseptic meningitis.

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Originally posted by rue:
Polio vaccines did eradicate polio. How do I know this? B/c there are no longer hundreds of thousands of people in the US with paralysis or who have died from it.

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Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Okay, Rue, I have a question about these figures. "At the same time there was a a 373% relative increase in autism, there was a 14% relative increase in MMR vaccination."

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Originally posted by rue:
Your insinuation about medical testing is insulting both personally and professionally

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If you have a point to make, make it without your load of ignorance and paranoia....Furthermore, I find your ability to carp at small points while missing the big picture to be unparalleled by anyone save PN.

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Originally posted by rue:
http://jama.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/9/1183
Essentially no correlation was observed between the secular trend of early childhood MMR immunization rates in California and the secular trend in numbers of children with autism enrolled in California's regional service center system. For the 1980-1994 birth cohorts, a marked, sustained increase in autism case numbers was noted, from 44 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1980 cohort to 208 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1994 cohort (a 373% relative increase), but changes in early childhood MMR immunization coverage over the same time period were much smaller and of shorter duration. Immunization coverage by the age of 24 months increased from 72% to 82%, a relative increase of only 14%, over the same time period.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
SUBCLINICAL? That means infections with no symptoms. If there are no symptoms, how is pertussis being diagnosed? Links please?

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We tested 46 fully vaccinated children in two day-care centers in Israel who were exposed to a fatal case of pertussis infection. Only two of five children who tested positive for Bordetella pertussis met the World Health Organization's case definition for pertussis. Vaccinated children may be asymptomatic reservoirs for infection....even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection...We found that immunity does not even persist into early childhood in some cases. We also observed that DPT vaccine does not fully protect children against the level of clinical disease defined by WHO. Our results indicate that children ages 5-6 years and possibly younger, ages 2-3 years, play a role as silent reservoirs in the transmission of pertussis in the community. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no5/srugo.htm

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