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Originally posted by Succatash:
Would you vote for Bill Gates to be president of the USA?

He would win.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Succatash:
Would you vote for Bill Gates to be president of the USA?

He would win.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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I think it would be a good thing.

You're the guys whose presidents keep getting assassinated, right?

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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He's also so rich that he would not get corrupted by bribes from lobbyists.

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Originally posted by Succatash:
Well, my general thoughts on Bill Gates: He's shrewd, super smart. How can anyone say he's an idiot? He's great at hiring the right people and he actually listens to them. He doesn't need to be a decorated war veteran - he would listen to his generals.

If his administration announced they were going to look at revamping social security, it would finally be time to sit up and pay attention, because of all people he could actually do it.

He's also so rich that he would not get corrupted by bribes from lobbyists.

I look at all the candidates for '08, and I'm not that impressed. Bill Gates would do much better than anyone currently on the list. And he's so successfull and famous, if he launched a campaign I bet he'd win

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Originally posted by rue:
Billy's a good guy? Did you not read how his main accomplishment was having his mom get him a sweet deal from the president of IBM? Did you not read how he stole, cheated, lied and stabbed his friends in the back for personal gain?

Unless, of course, you think those are good things ...

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Originally posted by OPPYH:
Now when I say he's a good guy, I will explain:
When there is an individual who is mega rich, and gives a small percentage to charity(around $60,000,000) each year, that is a good person.

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Originally posted by rue:
This is from earlier up. Read and get back to me.



Billy boy got where he did by having rich parents and having no scruples. Please note that Billy's programming 'talent' was in taking PUBLIC DOMAIN products (invented by others) and turning them into private u-soft property. His 'business acumen' lay in his contacts (his mommy got him the IBM contract - which he never fulfilled), lack of ethics and illegal methods.

"BASIC was first developed by John Kemeny and Thomas Kurtz at Dartmouth College in the mid-1960s. Basic had been around for many years before Bill implemented a version of it . ... it is not that impressive technically to take public domain code from one machine and port it to another. It was also very questionable (ethically) to sell a language who's definition was in public domain, and develop it on computer time borrowed from a school."

Age 20 1975 - "Gates & Allen, in a pattern that was to repeat time and time again, see an opportunity to rework an existing product (BASIC) for a new market."

"Age 25 1980 - Mary Gates (Bill's Mom) and a high level Executive at IBM (Akers) were chatting, and ... Well one thing lead to another, and Bill got a visit from IBM. This is another big secret to success -- be born into the right family, and get the right contacts."

"Bill Gates didn't even have a DOS, but he convinced IBM he was almost finished with one. (Another element of business Genius seems to be being a pathological liar). Perhaps (IBM's u-soft favorable contract) had something to do with the President of IBM telling the small team creating the PC to "see Mary Gates son Bill" that influenced them ..."

"Microsoft then bought DOS off someone else ... (which) was actually a cheap rip-off (clone) product of a friend of Gates ... - but therein lies another part of Genius; the lack of integrity/scruples."

And so on.

Come to think of it, yes, I think with his background he'd make a great politician. He's got all the right qualifications.

http://www.jmusheneaux.com/9000ff.htm

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Originally posted by rue:

sacrifice:
If I'm making $10,000 a year with no other assets and give $500 to charity, it's a really big deal. I'm cutting into money I need for necessities. If I'm making a few billion a year with $50 billion in personal assets, and give away a million, that still leaves me with $49.9 thousand million. Hardly a step down in lifestyle by any stretch of the imagination.

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tax benefit:
Billy is notorious for donating 'his' product (which was invented by others and was in the public domain) at full market value. Not only does he get a tax write-off, but he inculcates his software into education systems around the globe. Slick market domination, n'est-pas? He also was allowed to pay off his DOJ monopoly fines in u-soft product 'donations'.

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goodwill
Aside form the tax and market $$ benefits (above), well, there is the 'goodwill' he earns. Does it work? Just look at the postings on the board. Apparently people think he's a genius and Robin Hood all in one. A personal success story who was just like you and me who 'made it' in business out of luck and pluck'. Who's now giving away his fortune to others. In fact he's from a privileged background. He stole from you and me twice - one in appropriating public goods and then again in selling them back to us. And he's 'giving' away our money at a rate which doesn't begin to diminish his lifestyle. Genius? Robin Hood? Hardly.

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Originally posted by rue:
I was just disputing the presumptions that because he's rich he must be a genuis; and because he gives away an insignificant amount of his wealth he's a hero. I didn't say or even imply any of the things you posted.

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You should have a different sign-off - posting strawmen to derail debate

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Originally posted by rue:
Well, you just used the quote function, along with, well, quotes to frame your argument.

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Oh, and posting your arguments as 'rhetorical' questions doesn't get you off the hook.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
What about my questions was rhetorical? I am trying to get a handle on your extreme distaste for Bill Gates and your Franciscan views on charity.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I think the point is that there is a difference between Charity and cheap advertising.

I give a larger percentage of my wage to charity than Bill Gates, no one calls my a hero, most call me a C**T around here, although being hated by some of the people who post here can be nothing short of a badge of pride.

Point is I don't give money to charity for personal gain, I rather suspect Bill does.

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Originally posted by rue:
sacrifice:
If I'm making $10,000 a year with no other assets and give $500 to charity, it's a really big deal ...

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Charity is only good and noble if you bankrupt yourself in the process?

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Originally posted by rue:
tax benefit:
Billy is notorious for donating 'his' product (which was invented by others and was in the public domain) at full market value ...

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Rich people should not be allowed a tax write-off like everyone else?

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Originally posted by rue:
goodwill
Aside from the tax and market $$ benefits (above), well, there is the 'goodwill' he earns. ... Genius? Robin Hood? Hardly.

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
The jig is up Bill, stop giving away your ill-gotten money to charity.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Perhaps Bill should be more like Branson and spend all of his money on breaking records and space travel.

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The guy gives millions to charities through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
and it is simply cheap publicity because he still has loads more money.

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Do you think charitable donations are only valid if they meet a certain percentage of a person's net worth?

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Do you think the numerous organizations that receive support from the foundation care?

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Do your charitable donations mean more because you have less money than Bill even though, and I'm guessing here, he has donated several million more up until now than you?

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Can rich people actually have a social conscience

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or should all acts of philanthropy be questioned for ulterior motives?

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Originally posted by rue:
OK, here is an analysis of your straw-man arguments (ellipses to save space).

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Originally posted by rue:

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Charity is only good and noble if you bankrupt yourself in the process?

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I was responding to others who felt that Billy's donations were some measure of deep internal goodness. My point was that since those donations amount to an infinitesimal fraction of a penny - relatively speaking - they seemed more like trivial gestures. At best. But you missed the point and argued that I said one had to bankrupt themselves to be charitable. Please, find me that quote.

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Originally posted by rue:
tax benefit:
Billy is notorious for donating 'his' product (which was invented by others and was in the public domain) at full market value ...

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Rich people should not be allowed a tax write-off like everyone else?

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You sort-of missed the point, again. Did I even come close to saying it was a tax-code problem? No, I said it was the nature of the 'gift'. That's what makes this yet another straw-man argument. You are arguing against a point I didn't make.

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Billy is notorious for donating 'his' product (which was invented by others and was in the public domain) at full market value. Not only does he get a tax write-off, but he inculcates his software into education systems around the globe.

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Originally posted by Rue

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
The jig is up Bill, stop giving away your ill-gotten money to charity.

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Well here you posted yet another straw-man argument. That's three out of three if you're counting. Did I say he should stop giving his money to charity? Please, feel free to find it. What I said was giving away money doesn't make him into something he's not.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Perhaps Bill should be more like Branson and spend all of his money on breaking records and space travel.

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I fail to see how that's equivalent? No one is saying Branson's space and record breaking endeavours make him a good person.

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Do you think charitable donations are only valid if they meet a certain percentage of a person's net worth?

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No, I'm pretty sure the money is still there. But there's such a thing as perspective, for instance, whose more charitable, the man who has two cans of baked beans and gives on away, or a man who has a million and gives away ten?

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Do you think the numerous organizations that receive support from the foundation care?

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No, why does this matter? You say he's a good man because he gives money to charity, I say the act of giving money away doesn't automatically make someone good.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Does being rich and therefore having more money to give automatically make someone a better person?

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or should all acts of philanthropy be questioned for ulterior motives?

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Should all acts of philanthropy signify someone as a good person despite past behaviour?

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Originally posted by rue:
"If someone drops a few coins into a salvation army kettle do you not consider that a charitable act because it may be a fraction of the money in their bank account?" If someone drops a few coins into a salvation army kettle should they be labeled generous if it's a miniscule fraction of the money in their bank account?

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"It read to me like you think Bill should not be allowed to play by the same rules as everyone else." It reads to me like you think business decisions should be confused with moral ones.

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"Or are you forming your opinions about him based on incomplete information gleaned from the internet?" Let's see. I've read biographies of Billy boy and histories of u-soft. I read every single page of every single document posted by the DOJ in his trial. And I read up on the way he settled it, his ongoing attempts to weasel out of his European troubles without actually changing his illegal practices, and his same old shit software developments.

I'd say my opinion of Billy boy is well founded.

And yours?

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
My point was Bill Gates could be trying to circumnavigate the globe in a ballon instead of running his foundation. There is no law stating people must give to charity. Bill Gates has every right to horde every single dollar he has and give nothing to charity. He chooses to give and should not be derided for it.

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Who is more charitable, the man who has a million cans of beans and gives away ten, or the man who has a million cans of beans and gives away none?

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Say Bill donates $100,000 to a soup kitchen. Whatever small percentage of his net worth that is, it still buys a heck of a lot of soup.

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I have not stated whether I think Bill is a good man or not, I don't know the guy. But he is a better man than someone who gives 0% of their money to charity IMHO.

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I would have to say no. But larger donations have a more immediate impact which could be seen as a good thing.

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I would like to think that we still live in a world where past indiscretions can be atoned for through philanthropic endeavours.

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And whether Bill has a social consciece or not, many people have benefited from his foundation and will continue to do so. I think that is the main point, not if Bill is a publicity whore or whether his Mother got him his big break or not.

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And in the interests of keeping this thread on topic, I do not think Bill Gates could be president until he cuts his teeth in politics first. Perhaps Govenor of Washington for starters.

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Originally posted by rue:
I wasn't discussing motivation, dude. I was talking behavior. You do know what MO means, don't you?

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