the cold hard scientific facts: 9/11 was an inside job by antimason

So, none of you three even bothered to watch the video, right?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 2:42 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

This has nothing to do with anything except the photo - I like how they can use one toe-thumb to pick the other toe-thumb.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 2:49 PM

GLADIATOR32

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So, none of you three even bothered to watch the video, right?

Nope, I didn't!

I just wanted to give my opinion regardless. I'm an idiot like that!

-------------------------------

www.myspace.com/32dan32

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 2:56 PM

i notice that none of you are willing to debate me on the statistics.. you are still relying solely on your initial, emotional responses to the events and the immediate impressions implanted by the CIA and FBI- in collusion with the mainstream media networks

how about i toss out this one simple nugget for you to debate me on:

-the 9/11 commission report states that both towers collapsed to the ground in approximately 10 sec- or in other words the equivelant to FREE FALL speeds(ie in a vuccuum absent resistance). these buildings were 110 stories, and overengineered... with 47 steel collumns.. NOT HOLLOW like the 9/11 commission claims; thats lie #1. in order for the pancake theory to be true, fire alone would have had to compromise 80+ stories, symetrically in a matter of 10 seconds! if we were to estimate that it took half a second for each individual floor to fail..it should have taken 40 seconds to collapse... not 10! the other floors were perfectly intact guys... there is no possible explanation for this amount of energy to have been released from a minimal amount of jet fuel. that is just rediculous... and Bushs bro Marvin was the head of Securacom, the company in CHARGE of the Towers security!(convenient to strategically prewire the thermate that brought the towers down)

should we talk about FAA and Norad mysteriously loosing track of the airplanes?? i guess these 19 hijackers.. some of whom are still alive today, somehow made this happen by combining their box cutters and chanting allah or seomthing. they also were able to fly a 757 10 ft off the ground at 200 mph without any training, and make it entierly dissapear inside a newly renovated portion of the pentagon.. the most highly protected building in the country.

think about it and quit being so damn foolish

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 2:59 PM

JONGSSTRAW

All these freakin' conspiracy assholes are farging insane..they're also fargin' traitors to America.

To even suggest such an absurd concept is quite an admission of their utter lack of reality, outright hatred of America, and an open testimonial to their pea-brained intellect...how fucking sad & pathetic!

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:02 PM

GLADIATOR32

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
quit being so damn foolish

Awww, but being foolish is so damned fun!

Oh, in case y'all didn't realise, I'm way out of my intellectual depth here (at least I'm honest, right??), hence my resorting to sillyness. It's too late for this deep a discussion. I'm off to be bed, night guys, happy debating!

-------------------------------

www.myspace.com/32dan32

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:08 PM

jongsstraw- so debate me on the facts?

youre the traitor.. you support the same terrorists who caused the murders of 9/11.. and you fearmonger and use those lies as an excuse to destroy american liberties and plunge us into global conlfict. keep goosestepping along with your neo Nazi idol Bush and his plan for a global government... youll soon be revealed for the traitors to AMerica that YOU are

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:18 PM

KANEMAN

If the 9/11 commission report is wrong on the facts (how long it took the buildings to come down etc.) that would not surprise me, it is after all a government report and they are always full of inaccuracies. But to take the fact the the report has inaccuracies and say it must be an inside top run conspiracy is bull shit. The videos of the planes going into the buildings, videos of the buildings collapse, coupled with testimony from the people that were in the building is much greater evidence than what this clown says. Hey, just watch the videos... there are plenty out there. Or are the videos fake? The thousands of eye witnesses hypnotized? They are all incorrect as to what they saw and lived through because someone sees perceived natural law violations in a GOVERNMENT report? Duh!

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gladiator32:
I never believed 9/11 to be any kind of inside job. I found this website rather interesting:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

It's heavy going, takes friggin ages to read, but pretty much destroys any conspiracy theorist's arguments...

oh... you mean the article written by Benjamin Chertoff, Homeland security secretary Michael Chertoffs brother????

talk about a conflict of interests... get real!! why dont you just ask the CIA what they want you to believe; but while youre at it, research MKULTRA and other CIA black ops projects created to condition and propogate the masses through deliberate disinformation

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Don't really have the hour to invest in watching the video right now, and the time to formulate an opinion and response. Maybe tomorrow.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
If the 9/11 commission report is wrong on the facts (how long it took the buildings to come down etc.) that would not surprise me, it is after all a government report and they are always full of inaccuracies.

like the warren commission for example... but inaccuracies is an understatement. more like "ommissions and distortions"

Quote:
But to take the fact the the report has inaccuracies and say it must be an inside top run conspiracy is bull shit.

no.. its not just the report- its the evidence that the report conveniently withheld.. or basically every peice of data those of us in the 9/11 truth movement seize onto, like the molten steel at the base of the towers weeks after the attacks(which is impossible from fire)- that kind of information contradicts the official claims, so you never heard about it! thats how deep this coverup goes

Quote:
The videos of the planes going into the buildings, videos of the buildings collapse, coupled with testimony from the people that were in the building is much greater evidence than what this clown says.

like the firemen who heard explosions in the towers, and their testimonies which were put under gag order from the DOD...or like the eye witnesses who saw something other then a commercial airliner hit the pentagon? those are accounts that you didnt hear for a reason!

Quote:
Hey, just watch the videos... there are plenty out there. Or are the videos fake? The thousands of eye witnesses hypnotized? They are all incorrect as to what they saw and lived through because someone sees perceived natural law violations in a GOVERNMENT report? Duh!

the government has not released ANY FILM OF THE PENTAGON CRASH; they even went as far as confiscating local servelience cameras... now why?? because witnesses never saw the claimed 757.... period

its a matter of details.. it really all comes down to the evidence, and whether you will actually measure it objectively or not

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:32 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So, none of you three even bothered to watch the video, right?

Yes, did you?

It's poorly reasoned and nothing I've not heard before.

"The WTC was designed to withstand plane strikes". Yeah from smaller aircraft taking off/landing, not larger aircraft travelling at maximum speed. I could go on and on, but there's nothing new here that hasn't been debunked a hundred times.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:36 PM

BUFFALOPHIL

All you conspiracy theorists are looking for is attention.

I'll be honest, I have no opinion on how it happened, as I'm still in high school, but I do know it was a tragedy, and I do know that if Americans do the right thing it won't happen again.

That said, Americans hardly ever do the right thing, and this tragedy will likely repeat itself. I think anyone is foolish for arguing about it at all.

Bush's power will be gone shortly, Republicans have lost their power in congress, and soon we'll all be complaining about how dumb the democrats are (just like right now we're complaining about how dumb the republicans are).

So why do you conspiracy theorists continue the argument? To become famous, to have your voices heard, and the foolish American public will eat up anything that is fed to them.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Citizen-

I've seen no evidence that compels me to believe that the buildings collapsed from anything but by being hit by two fucking great big flying bombs.

I've seen plenty of evidence that requires the people masterminding and carrying off the various conspiracies to be super human.

youre right... 19 hijackers, whos names werent on the flight manifests.. turned off all four flight data recorders and tracking systems, seized control with box cutters, and put COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS through maneuvers that trained airforce veterans would struggle with.. and hit 75% of their targets, *causing the first 3 highrises to fall in history due to fire- and an entire 757 to dissapear within the pentagon (without leaving a mark)

now that sounds super human! i guess if 19 cave dwelling disinfranchised muslims can do it, anythings possible right???????????????????

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffaloPhil:

All you conspiracy theorists are looking for is attention.

exactly ... we're trying to wake people up to the truth! otherwise you will go on living your life believing that government is GOOD*- it is not, its purpose is control, and goverments will create terror if it leads to that end. you would never know this otherwise, because corporate media was long ago coopted by these same forces who have hijacked government.. so understand it is the common worldview and paradigm that we are resisting

Quote:
I'll be honest, I have no opinion on how it happened, as I'm still in high school, but I do know it was a tragedy, and I do know that if Americans do the right thing it won't happen again.

the "right thing" is exposing the true purpetrators behind 9/11.. otherwise it certainly will happen again. the "war on terror" will NEVER EVER EVER PREVENT TERRORISM... it is a front to implement every servelience method under the son, so that one day no one can do anything without being monitored. it wont be evil "islamofascists" behind this afront to freedom, it will be OUR OWN GOVERNMENT- if only we had the wisdom to recognize it as its happening in the present

Quote:
That said, Americans hardly ever do the right thing, and this tragedy will likely repeat itself. I think anyone is foolish for arguing about it at all.

i am not arguing, i am debating... a debate is an dialogue to uncover truth. those who wish to stifle debate, those in the "if your not with us your with the terrorists" crowd are the most anti- american people i can think of.. dont allow yourself to be conditioned like these neonazis

Quote:
Bush's power will be gone shortly, Republicans have lost their power in congress, and soon we'll all be complaining about how dumb the democrats are (just like right now we're complaining about how dumb the republicans are).

exactly.. because both arms are controlled by the same body of Bankers and elitist money runners. the whole system is flawed, and it must be exposed to the lights of public scrutiny before the status quo can be broken

Quote:
So why do you conspiracy theorists continue the argument? To become famous, to have your voices heard, and the foolish American public will eat up anything that is fed to them.

no, because protecting the liberties of innocent people is the right thing to do, and because avioding war and conflict is the right thing to do. these days its rare, but more vital than ever to put your name and life on the line for truth

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 4:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
All these freakin' conspiracy assholes are farging insane..they're also fargin' traitors to America.

To even suggest such an absurd concept is quite an admission of their utter lack of reality, outright hatred of America, and an open testimonial to their pea-brained intellect...how fucking sad & pathetic!

I don't think they're traitors. Our forefathers said that a public that believes whatever its government tells them diserve to be slaves. It is every American's patriotic duty to question things like this and not just believe what the media says.

I haven't made up my mind about 9/11. I want to give our Government the benefit of the doubt here, but there is compelling evidence against what we have been led to believe.

Perhaps, there were explosives rigged in the building at the time it was erected, for the very purpose of destroying the building in the fashion they went down. For the simple reason that towers that big would kill countless more people if they fell like a tree a lumberjack just cut down.

I think it's possible that the red button to self destruct the towers was pushed, even with people still trapped inside. That would be a tough call to make, but in that instance, whoever had to make that call had to balance the lives of the people still trapped in the building that may fall over at any minute and the lives of any of the people in the buildings nearby that may have toppled like dominoes.

Not to mention the money aspect of such a tragedy. New York would shut down for years if 20 or 30 buildings were destroyed.

If this were the case, do you think anybody would honestly tell the American people that the building had been destroyed in this fashion for this reason? They would have to hang somebody by their balls to appease the wrath of a people who do things like take great joy in watching Saddam hang on YouTube.

Don't go calling people questioning the "facts" traitors. Maybe you need to keep a more open mind and realize that in a world that's all about the bottom line above the people, maybe the big companies and big Government aren't always looking out for you. And perhaps, our Government isn't the same Government your grandparents grew up with and loved.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 4:17 PM

SEVENPERCENT

A child could argue against the claim you made in this post.

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

youre right... 19 hijackers, whos names werent on the flight manifests..

I haven't seen evidence that this was the case. But are last minute ticket purchases always on flight manifests?

Quote:
turned off all four flight data recorders and tracking systems, seized control with box cutters,

Flight personnel had up until this point been trained NOT TO RESIST hijackers, idiot. Normally they land in Cuba, no one is hurt, and everyone goes home. No one had done this before.

Quote:
and put COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS through maneuvers that trained airforce veterans would struggle with..

Since when did turning a plane become a complex maneuver? I'll bet 99% of this board could "turn joystick to the right" on a plane. It's not like they were doing loops in the air. I'd like to know what maneuvers were complex, since they weren't evading any attack aircraft. The plane was already in the air, and - if you had forgotten - the terrorists were trained pilots.

Quote:
and hit 75% of their targets,

They hit 2 110 story buildings and the pentagon. Have you been to NY? Or Washington? I have, both. I got lost in Washington near the pentagon once - it takes you 20 minutes to drive around it. It's not like they were aiming at a human target; it was like hitting barns with bb's.

Quote:
*causing the first 3 highrises to fall in history due to fire- and an entire 757 to dissapear within the pentagon (without leaving a mark)

They were hit by PLANES! Filled with FUEL! No shit they fell. It's like saying you saw someone shot with a cannon and were surprised it blew them in half. Why is it so hard to believe? And there are pics of debris outside the pentagon, which you seem to ignore (one of which has an engine and a wing in it).

Quote:
now that sounds super human! i guess if 19 cave dwelling disinfranchised muslims can do it, anythings possible right???????????????????

What of any of that sounds superhuman? It all sounds logical, to any rational person. To say though, that a crack team of agents infiltrated the towers on government order; planted explosives which would take down the towers; created a national disaster in plain sight; (some theorists believe) that some of the other passengers are still alive somewhere; no one involved has ever spoken out (they found all these people willling to betray their own country (i.e., everyone followed orders - what happened to those who said no, I won't do this - were they all killed?); scientists at reputable mags are in on it; video and pics have been altered; yet only a crack team of two people living in a basement looking on the web could figure it out?

What are you smoking?

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 4:31 PM

BUFFALOPHIL

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

exactly ... we're trying to wake people up to the truth! otherwise you will go on living your life believing that government is GOOD*-

Funny, I don't recall endorsing the statement that the government was "good". Although I can hardly stand the status quo, that doesn't mean I believe the government would be so foolish as to attack their own country.

However, the idea you are endorsing could hardly be considered "truth". Sevenpercent gives a good argument, I'll just go with what he said.

Quote:
the "right thing" is exposing the true purpetrators behind 9/11.. otherwise it certainly will happen again. the "war on terror" will NEVER EVER EVER PREVENT TERRORISM... it is a front to implement every servelience method under the son, so that one day no one can do anything without being monitored. it wont be evil "islamofascists" behind this afront to freedom, it will be OUR OWN GOVERNMENT- if only we had the wisdom to recognize it as its happening in the present

We shouldn't be in the middle-east, that much I agree on, and we certainly aren't helping to prevent terrorism by accidentally killing of thousands of innocents. We should go back to the isolationist days before WWI, at least then we couldn't be blamed for everything under the sun.

Quote:

i am not arguing, i am debating... a debate is an dialogue to uncover truth. those who wish to stifle debate, those in the "if your not with us your with the terrorists" crowd are the most anti- american people i can think of.. don't allow yourself to be conditioned like these neonazis

I'm just fine with debate. You're absolutely right on that, debate should not be stifled.

Quote:
exactly.. because both arms are controlled by the same body of Bankers and elitist money runners. the whole system is flawed, and it must be exposed to the lights of public scrutiny before the status quo can be broken

Agreed. The system is majorly flawed.

Quote:
no, because protecting the liberties of innocent people is the right thing to do, and because avioding war and conflict is the right thing to do. these days its rare, but more vital than ever to put your name and life on the line for truth

That, I can agree with. All by itself, that statement rules. Rights are important.

And I agree completely with Sevenpercent.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 5:54 PM

SEVENPERCENT

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffaloPhil:

However, the idea you are endorsing could hardly be considered "truth". Sevenpercent gives a good argument, I'll just go with what he said.

Thanks for the compliment.

Look, Antimason, take a look at what you're asking anyone to believe-

If it was (as most people believe) as the news media says, you would need:

*1 Leader Type (to come up with the plan, or to organize)
*1 Lieutenant type (or contact type, to give direction)
*19 volunteers with a creative plan, which only included: Taking advantage of a weak airline system with lax security and policies, flight training with no oversight available to anyone with money, and finding a (huge) target (gigantic buildings).

It's not overly complex, or unimaginable.

To have a conspiracy of the magnitude you suggest, you need:

*A leader type capable of plotting the deaths of his own citizens
*A cabal of behind the scenes men with the same goals capable of getting that man into power
*A number of men to contact the people you'd need to carry out that type of mission (CIA chief, FBI chief, ATF chief, NSA chief, Homeland Sec chief)
*A number of specially trained personnel capable of laying the foundation (demolition experts, intelligence people, etc.), all willing to murder innocent people and say nothing
*A number of people paid off to not notice what those specialists are doing (building security, police, witnesses), all willing to murder innocents and say nothing
*Enough funds, persuasion, people to pay off scientists to "agree" to reports that the buildings could fall if they really couldn't; and to stay secret, basically covering up the murder of innocents and remaining silent
*Enough cash to bribe photographers to alter pictures of the aftereffects of the disasters; and to stay secret, basically covering up the murder of innocents and remaining silent
**(two stars for this one) Some survivors of the planes paid off enough to remain on a desert island somewhere, complicit in the murder of innocents (as some of the more radical have suggested)
**Logically, a number of people who could murder people who chose not to be complicit, thereby threatening the secrecy of the operation.

Yet, all of this able to be figured out by a couple guys using grainy video footage, posted to a website or two? And, after all the behind the scenes work needed to get that conspiracy off, them able to get that info out without being killed and that info vanishing?

What is suggested by the conspiracy theorists is so complex and improbable as to be ludicrous.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 6:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i want it to be clear by the end of this thread that only elements within the US government could have orchestrated 9/11. the relevence of this subject is so great that it alters all that is generally accepted among corporate mainstream media and popular history. unless you include the coverup of 9/11 as a premise to your worldview, along with its subsequent ramifications.. you will forever be stuck within the controlled paradigm of corporate media and its banking slavemasters

Good. Unless we agree with Dr. Fetzer’s unsupported interpretation of events we are slaves? The typical argument of cultism. In order to free our minds, we must stop thinking for ourselves and let Dr. Fetzer think for us. For godsakes don’t drink the Kool-Aid, kids!!!

Dr. Fetzer is entitled to his opinion, but he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and he’s not even qualified to speculate on the topic. He’s a history professor, not a scientist. Few of the arguments he’s made are cogent or supportable and most of them are refuted by real scientists.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 6:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So, none of you three even bothered to watch the video, right?

HKCavalier
.

After y2k, I made a vow to stop wasting my time on conspiracy theories and nut case claims. A brief list of claims that I won't bother even wasting my time 'looking into' -

The Earth is flat.

The Earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 yrs old. ( The timeline of the Bible is 100% accurate )

9/11 was an inside job

The Lochness Monster is a long lost Plesiosaur type sea lizard from the Mesozic era.

The 'face' on Mars was made by an ancient civilization.

The Holocaust didn't happen, or was vastly exaggerated.

We've been 'visited' by aliens from outter space.

There was more than 1 gunman that murdered JFK

Global warming is 'man made' , or even remotely influenced by mankind.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 6:49 PM

Hey 7%,

I mean no disrespect to Antimason, but I think the video he posted makes a much more troubling argument for conspiracy than his posts here do. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the video, particularly the twenty minute clip from the documentary at the end.

I think what's needed for the kind of conspiracy Antimason is suggesting is true believers. People who think human survival against the international muslim conspiracy is worth taking extraordinary risks and suffering extraordinary loss of life to combat. People convinced that the smoking gun is gonna be a mushroom cloud, for instance. What you need is a central hub of corrupt folk willing to manipulate the hell out of these true believers.

I guess what you need is some kind of "secret society" or "secret government" made up of fanatics who think they alone know "what's really going on." Keepers of "secret knowledge," dangerous knowledge that would drive ordinary people mad if they were to grasp "the truth." Yes, elitists who think that ordinary people are inferior, irredemably confused, sheeple.

Look at the Final Solution. Corrupt cabal at it's center (Hitler and his inner circle had nothing but contempt for ordinary Germans), true believers doing a lot of the dirty work (propagandizing the general populace so their proper "masters" can go about the great business of history undisturbed), and still a huge number of "orders followers" who simply trusted their government. Did the Nazis have to pay off vast numbers of people to keep the destruction of the jews quiet?

We have a media that voluntarily censors itself where "national security" is at stake. And an "opposition party" who's interests are so vested in the status quo that the kind of governemental upheaval needed to deal with a Nazi-esque conspiracy in their midst is "unthinkable."

And we have no end of people who simply refuse to believe that such a thing is even possible. When such people are scientists, they come up with their best explanation for what "must have happened," free of charge. When they're in the media, they dismiss the "tin foil hat brigade" out of hand, free of charge. When they are members of the government, they keep any "wild supposition" they may have to themselves out of loyalty or the need for job security, free of charge. They just keep telling themselves, "It couldn't have happened, it couldn't have happened, it couldn't have happened."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 7:12 PM

For those people who would like to see what the experts have to say on the topic: here is the FAQ on the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) website which refutes every claim made in Dr. Fetzer’s interpretation.

NIST investigated the collapse, using actual science.

"In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 9:00 PM

Hey Finn,

That is the best analysis of the WTC catastrophy that I have read. Thank you.

I'm so glad NIST does not endorse the "pancake theory," for instance. I thought Fetzer's debunking of that theory was one of his strongest points. It's also very gratifying to see an analysis of the calapse of the buildings which accounts specifically for the seismic record, and the "plumes of smoke." The only thing they missed from Fetzer's video (maybe I missed it) was the concrete "ash" in the lobbies "consistent with high explosives."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 9:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
------------------------------

Something has always bothered me about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories generally follow a simple pattern.

1) Something happens. (Well, the theory has to be about something.)

2) Someone benefits from something happening/someone benefits from something happening but remaining secret.

3) A super-complex series of events is set in motion by the party referenced in #2 above which either caused #1, caused #1 to remain a secret, or caused #1 to be blamed on a third party.

Now, I'm not naive or a fool. I believe that things happen. Things happen every day. These things sometimes benefit someone, and sometimes knowledge about them would hurt someone. Sometimes people take steps to make things happen, sometimes people take staps to keep those things secret, and sometimes they take steps to see that someone else is blamed for it.

I'm with you so far, conspiracy theorists. In fact, most premeditated murders fall into the conspiracy formula rather nicely.

But why does #3 universally include a super-complex series of events? Why do the conspirators in these theories always use 999 mirrors and smoke machines when 1 will do quite adequately?

Let's take 9/11 as an example.

Supposedly we're dealing not with terrorists, but with highly trained operatives (or sometimes specially converted robot planes under military control.)

Sometimes, we're not dealing with passenger liners, but rather with special military airplanes.

Sometimes, we're not dealing with military airplanes, but rather with cruise missiles.

Sometimes, they add hundreds of specially made and secretly planted demolitions charges into the mix.

Now, this all seems needlessly complex to me. Rediculously so. Wouldn't it be easier to use intelligence sources to fund real terrorist cells to provide real terrorists to a real terrorist plot to steal and crash airliners? I mean, why the fuss? These people don't even need to know who they are working for.

And why would the conspirators need demolition charges or missiles or any of that nonsense? If airliners plummet into buildings, you've got stark raving terror and a cessation of air travel and all the disruption you could ask for. Whether the buildings collapse or not is immaterial. At least hundreds and possibly thousands of people will die anyway. All the disruption will happen anyway. No demolitions? No problem. We're still disrupted.

Just for once I'd like to hear a reasonable, plausible conspiracy theory. One that's simple and straightforward. You know... the kind that actually might happen.

Conspiracy theorists actually remind me of the Men In Black as they appeared in the television show The X-Files. In that show, when people saw real extra-terrestrial craft, they were visited by mysterious Men In Black. These men would drive up in mysterious black cars and wear mysterious black suits and black glasses and then they would tell the witness ominously, "What you saw was swamp gas reflecting light from the planet Venus!" And then they'd drive away. The story of the Men In Black was so rediculous that when the witness told the story about what he saw, and the following encounter with the Man In Black, he was laughed at. The addition of the rediculous detail of the Men In Black made the sighting unreasonably strange and stupid.

That's what Conspiracy Theorists do. They take a situation that might be believable, and then cock it up with rediculous complexity. Thus making the situation unbelievable.

Maybe they work for the government?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 9:30 PM

Anthony, I'm with you on the general obsession of the avid conspiracy theorists to get pretty baroque with their explanations. And certainly, part of it has to do with serious oedipal weirdness about authority and evil--I mean, it can be much easier for the psyche to deal with a specific evil enemy than it is to deal with ambiguity and happenstance, incompetance and failure. People want explanations and they want romance.

But part of the wacky extravagance of some theories is due to the official stories just not holding water and having nothing else to go on. They know the official story is crap, but they have nothing solid with which to counter it. So, they let their imaginations go...where they go.

You lost me here though:

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Just for once I'd like to hear a reasonable, plausible conspiracy theory. One that's simple and straightforward. You know... the kind that actually might happen.

Okay, let's take a real conspiracy, a real doozie that did happen, like the Final Solution. By your reasoning, it would be acceptible that the Nazis made laws restricting jews' movement, maybe ghettoizing them. But roaving bands of killers in trucks rounding them up and shooting them in the back of the skull and throwing the bodies into mass graves? C'mon! But the conspiracy theorists don't stop there, oh no, the Nazis shipped jews--get this--to "extermination camps," gassed them in gas chambers disguised as showers and burned the evindence in giant ovens! That kind of thing would require a vast beaurocracy, hundreds if not thousands of people would have to be kept silent--it's just not possible.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, January 9, 2007 11:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I find it quite amusing that nobody has responded to my previous post.......

You got a point Anthonyt. I look at some of the people who post here, and although I agree with much of what they say, I realize that if I take an extremeist and fanatical approach to it, I will be ignored, laughed at, ripped on, etc....

Unfortunately, I've been at work all night and I haven't been able to watch the video because we don't have audio here. I'm well aware of the many conspiracy theories regarding this and other similar incidents, such as Pearl Harbor.

A lot of it is hard to grasp, but being a person who has absolutely no faith in our Government's desire to protect its people, or at least no more faith that they do than they don't, I am inclined to stay somewhere in the middle on issues such as these, leaning more twoards the "Our Government is out to fuck us, or at least lies when it says it gives a shit" point of view. There are eleventy billion different things that could have happened that day. They could be reported and witheld many different ways. I won't pretend to know all of them or even attempt to discuss all of them.

Government is a business, like any other. The only difference is, America's Government is the biggest business in the world. Presidents and other PR people come and go, but the gears in the Pentagon and beyond never stop turning. For the many reasons that HKCAVALIER said and more, it would be very plausable for manevolent intentions stateside to be the root cause of 9/11, and I don't believe that it would have been all that difficult to cover up. I think the way things are run today just lend to things getting covered up almost by themselves.

The very fact that these ideas are scary are enough to turn 80% of the population away from them because, to tell you the truth, I wish I didn't ever think them myself. Sometimes I just want the blue pill. I find no enjoyment swimming against the tide, and there is no way in hell that I would ever want to be famous. I feel terrible for celebritys and the shit they put up with everyday.
---------------------------------------------

Anyways, you asked for it, so here's my theory:

As I stated above, perhaps there were explosives rigged in the building at the time it was erected, as a last resort self destruct mechanism created to minimize any impact any tragic event may have caused if the towers were to fall over and cause a dominoe effect thruought the city of New York. Think about how long it took just to clean a couple of wrecked buildings up. Now imagine 10, or 20 or 30 or more. Imagine all of those lives from the other buildings that could have been saved if proper safety measures, such as tactically placed and well hidden charges of C4 that would explode when certain conditions were met under the most dire of circumstances, had been put into place.

This may seem far fetched, but think about the buildings we're talking about. This wasn't your local McDonalds and Burger King. Look at the Skyline of New York and see how different it looks now. They were both very prominant and easy targets. Not only that, but we're talking two of the strongest symbols of Capitalism the world has ever known, if not the strongest. I'm going to go as far as to say that those towers were begging to be destroyed by outside forces with an agenda. Somebody had to know this, or at least be wary of the possibility of it, before the towers were built and business was conducted there. Higher ups in Big Gov didn't get where they were at because they were stupid or were severly lacking in foresight.

I've worked in small unmarked buildings in the middle of nowhere, or in industrial parks whose purposes are to do things that may or may not make them a target for outsiders. The people who chose these buildings had the foresight to pick small, inconspicuous and unmarked buildings that blend into the American landscape. I just can't swallow that the creators of the Towers and the people behind the curtain didn't have the same sage foresight.

Yes. I believe that explosives were used.

No. I do not believe that our Government or even terrorists blew those buildings up.

The way the buildings went down, if one of those two organizations were to do it, it would be far more likely that our Government blew them up than terrorists, simply because of the fact that they fell inside themselves so perfectly. No... I believe the terrorists would have wanted to topple them like a lumberjack would and then we would have really witnessed chaos on a massive scale and 9/11 as we know it would have been a walk in the park.

------

Now, assuming that the charges were put there for the reasons that I believe they would be, there are a couple of situations that would also have to take place:

1. For obvious reasons that need no explanation, it's very probable that nobody working in the building was even aware of the fact that these charges existed in the first place.

2. Being a matter of extreme secrecy, the need to know level of these explosives would reach far beyond local law enforcement and Government. I should imagine that not only didn't any of the firefighters or cops know about them, but Gulianni and the rest of the New York State government didn't know either. In a situation like this, it would be very possible that the first time even the President of the United states heard about them was after he was interrupted from reading to those kids in school to be informed that we had been attacked. Maybe even his own authorization would be one of the conditions needed to be met for the charges to go off.

3. All these years later, now more than ever, all knowledge of these explosives by anyone in the know would need to remain secret. And the people who knew about it would not say a damn word to anybody for the reasons that HKCAVALIER said in his post and even more. When you're part of that level of secrecy, I'm sure it's not even necessary to state that you're entire family and anybody you care about might suffer a tragic "accident" if your lips start saying things they shouldn't be... and for good reason.

4. You would have to have a media there on the spot that could tell the people what to think about the incident all day every day for weeks afterwards. Do you remember the 24 hour coverage of that event during the aftermath?

----------------------

Now... I know this could still be a very hard pill to swallow, but I leave you with these thoughts.

1. If this were how it went down, than countless lives have been saved. How many tens of thousands of people may have died had those buildings fallen at an unfortunate angle?

2. To bring the money aspect into it, how much do you think it would cost America in money and jobs if New York were to shut down almost completely for years while they cleaned up the rubble from dozens of buildings and high rises?

3. It would have been one of the hardest choices the President (or anyone else who would have pressed that button) would have ever made in their lives, but they were also fully aware of the severity of #1 and #2 before they pressed it.

4. I am not saying the Government does this for all of its buildings, or that any other building in America had even been primed in this fashion. For the reasons stated above and because of what the Towers stood for and the fact they were such a delicious target for enemy forces, it would be very plausable for precautions such as this to have been taken. I wouldn't be suprised if other buildings stateside were rigged like this before, and you can bet your ass after the events of 9/11, there have been buildings pre-charged, or at the very least, plans for buildings which will be charged.

Now... that's my thoughts on the how the buildings fell down. When you look at it that way, it doesn't even sound so bad, does it? Maybe you'd like to discuss them. I won't get into the why (I think) yet. I think this is plenty for us to ponder now. Now, of course, I don't believe in this theory 100%, but it is my own and I happen to give it a great deal of probability.

I seriously don't think anybody could find any point of this idea that they can refute with 100% certainty.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Jack, i'm beginning to suspect we're related somehow - those exact thoughts occured to me when I saw em freefall.

My own take on it is the usual mishmash of what happens when you have a government involved at all - some folk caught wind of the plot, helped it along, some folk were just plain incompetent, some folk were playing petty power games instead of doin the job, and most of them never took it seriously, and some of those folk sandbagged the hell out of folk who woulda brought it up via the usual round of office politics, and a couple folk played on it for their own benefit and financial gain, before and after the fact.

I don't think we're lookin at one grand all-encompassing conspiracy, I think we're lookin at a whole crapload of nasty, petty little ones on top of each other due to the greedy, corrupt, self-serving nature of government officals.

This thing likely came to be in the same fashion an avalanche does, some pebble dropped somewhere, and it kept hittin other pebbles and whammo.

Did some folks "know" ?
Hell yes.
Did some folks "not know" ?
Of course.
Did some folks just out and out fumble the ball ?
Obviously.

A true FUBAR isn't usually the work of a great grand conspiracy, but rather more often a crapload of little petty ones playing off each other, and I really think that's what we should be looking for here.

You wanna find the folks who "knew" - find out who the shortsellers of airline stock were that day.. notice how quickly THAT investigation was buried, for example.

Malice, stupidity, incompetence, office politics, and good old fashioned beauracracy are the prime suspects - matching those to specific individuals isn't too hard once you break it down.

You think about it from that aspect, review the evidence, and you'll probably be able to figure out who was where in that chain of events.

Human nature betrayed us, is what it is.

-Frem

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:50 AM

TATHRASEVENTEEN

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
this here is basically the video that removes all speculation and debate (
although certainly not the first and only)
and i challenge everybody to watch this video and still affirm (if not completely dissassociate)your allegience with the "establishment"

its no longer up for debate.. the governments account, as summarized by the 9/11 commission report, is SCIENTIFICALLY AND PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! the only conclusion to be drawn from the evidence is that it was not arab "terrorists" with 'alqaeda'

if you want to debate me on this issue... specifically the events of that day, bring it on! Hero, Auraptor, Geezer...and those of you on the fence:

i want it to be clear by the end of this thread that only elements within the US government could have orchestrated 9/11. the relevence of this subject is so great that it alters all that is generally accepted among corporate mainstream media and popular history. unless you include the coverup of 9/11 as a premise to your worldview, along with its subsequent ramifications.. you will forever be stuck within the controlled paradigm of corporate media and its banking slavemasters

I'll make this quick: we'll never know. In fact, we'll be better off not knowing. Imagine what would happen if it were proved - ie actual government documents, not someone giving his opinion on YouTube (I know it was a recording of an actual speech) - what would happen next? I'm not saying the War On Terror is a good thing (far from it), but what do you think would happen to the world if it were known that the United States Government had some hand in orchestrating the events of that day?

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:15 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
That kind of thing would require a vast beaurocracy, hundreds if not thousands of people would have to be kept silent--it's just not possible.

That's a very good point, HK.

I spent a couple of weeks talking to an octogenarian dad of a high school classmate. A German citizen, he was drafted to serve in the German army during WWII. He said that during his service, there were rumors, here and there, that there were concentration camps killing Jews. But he and fellow soldiers just dismissed those rumors, even from purported eyewitnesses, as impossible conspiracy theories devised by people who want attention or were drunk or can't stand authority, etc. He explained that nobody believed that their own government would be capable of such extremes, until post-war exposure of those camps.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
--Tom Robbins (1936 - )

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:51 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
this here is basically the video that removes all speculation and debate (
although certainly not the first and only)
and i challenge everybody to watch this video and still affirm (if not completely dissassociate)your allegience with the "establishment"

its no longer up for debate.. the governments account, as summarized by the 9/11 commission report, is SCIENTIFICALLY AND PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! the only conclusion to be drawn from the evidence is that it was not arab "terrorists" with 'alqaeda'

if you want to debate me on this issue... specifically the events of that day, bring it on! Hero, Auraptor, Geezer...and those of you on the fence:

i want it to be clear by the end of this thread that only elements within the US government could have orchestrated 9/11. the relevence of this subject is so great that it alters all that is generally accepted among corporate mainstream media and popular history. unless you include the coverup of 9/11 as a premise to your worldview, along with its subsequent ramifications.. you will forever be stuck within the controlled paradigm of corporate media and its banking slavemasters

I'd be interested to see what info you have on the faked Apollo moon landings.

And the Kennedy assassination.

And the UFO landings at Roswell.

And that the earth is flat.

And how Santa can drive that sleigh around the Earth in 24 hours.

Fascinating stuff, all.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Well, I watched the video up until the point at which he started talking about "...the temperature at which steel melts...", and then I knew it was a waste of time. The temperature at which steel melts is of no consequence to the argument.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I've seen no evidence that compels me to believe that the buildings collapsed from anything but by being hit by two fucking great big flying bombs.

I've seen plenty of evidence that requires the people masterminding and carrying off the various conspiracies to be super human.

Maybe satan is behind it, he's about the only guy who could, Bush sure as hell couldn't.

Stop the presses! Alert the media! Citizen and I agree 100% on something.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:55 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i want it to be clear by the end of this thread that only elements within the US government could have orchestrated 9/11.

Damn! There goes my Canadian-Micronesia Cabal theory.

I think that you are ignoring the possibility that Islamic Terrorists infiltrated the WTC and set it to implode, then hyjacked the planes and crashed them into the WTC to cover up their real plot.

Or the really outside chance that superheated steel and damaged structural supports caused the upper floors to collapse and start a chain reaction that resulted in the complete destruction of both buildings.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that, if it was an inside job...Nicholas Cage would make a good villian for the movie. Now I watched World Trade Center the movie and Cage's character does not "appear" to be involved. Maybe the director's cut will show it.

H

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Well, I watched the video up until the point at which he started talking about "...the temperature at which steel melts...", and then I knew it was a waste of time. The temperature at which steel melts is of no consequence to the argument.

Yep, classic ‘magic bullet’ bullshit. Ignore the details and force the issue to fit a single shallow intolerant argument in order to compel a preconceived notion. It’s a card trick. And Dr. Fetzer thinks we’re stupid enough to buy it. I actually watched the whole thing from beginning to end, and it just got more stupid as it when it along. I am now dumber for having wasted an hour of my life watching that nonsense.

For anyone else who wants to watch it, be my guess, but you would be better off reading the NIST FAQ, which will give you actual honest answers, not card tricks. (Or if you have time, you may read the NIST Final Report on the WTC collapse, which is very technical reading, but much more detailed.)

Now personally, I think it was aliens who hired Bigfoot to shoot the towers with the magic bullet.

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:09 AM

HERO

Hey! Its the Table of Contents to the 'Hitchhikers Guide to Crazy Talk'

Introduction by Barbara Steisand
Chapter 1: Moon Landings...Yeah Right
Chapter 2: Kennedy Really Killed by _________
Chapter 3: Elvis has not left the Building
Chapter 4: No Holocaust, All those Jews are still alive and secretly running the world from an underground bunker in Hollywood.
Chapter 5: 9/11...Not only did it never really happen, but the US Govt. is Responsible
Chapter 6: Fixed Elections since 1872
Chapter 7: Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton
Chapter 8: Reality TV and You
Chapter 9: They want your guns
Chapter 10: 101 Uses for Tin Foil
Chapter 11: Aliens from Space
Chapter 12: Aliens from Mexico
Chapter 14: Aliens from NAFTA (With a special analysis of Ross Perot's ears)
Chapter 15: What really happened to Chapter 13
Chapter 16: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Chapter 17: The Even Vaster Left Wing Conspiracy
Chapter 18: The Really Really Vast Centrist Conspiracy
Chapter 19: Contrails
Chapter 20: DUI Laws and PirateNews

Its goes on...its a long book, but doesn't really say anything.

H

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Okay, let's take a real conspiracy, a real doozie that did happen, like the Final Solution. By your reasoning, it would be acceptible that the Nazis made laws restricting jews' movement, maybe ghettoizing them. But roaving bands of killers in trucks rounding them up and shooting them in the back of the skull and throwing the bodies into mass graves? C'mon! But the conspiracy theorists don't stop there, oh no, the Nazis shipped jews--get this--to "extermination camps," gassed them in gas chambers disguised as showers and burned the evindence in giant ovens! That kind of thing would require a vast beaurocracy, hundreds if not thousands of people would have to be kept silent--it's just not possible.

HKCavalier"

Not that much of a conspiracy there, Cavalier. The general population had been told by the administration that the jews were a menace that needed to be erradicated. The jews were rounded up, placed into ghettos, then trucked or trained away, never to return. What happened next didn't take a large imagination or a leap of faith. The holocaust worked so well, not because the government lied to the people, but rather because the people were ready, able, and willing to lie to themselves.

Anyway, if a modern conspiracy theorist observed the holocaust story, it would go much differently.

"You see all those jews being taken away? I bet you think the government is getting rid of them. Not so. That would be the obvious impression, but in reality, they are being taken to a secret Semetic base in the Black Forest. They have seized control of the government, and are consolidating their power base. Meanwhile, we think the Jewish threat is ended. Hitler? He's in on it! You've seen his spirited posturing, you don't think that's serious, do you? He's so bombastic it's an obvious lie. He's working with them. He keeps the German citizens in the city, subject to firebombings, while the Jews are safe in their secret compound. While we think the jews are gone, they are really controlling everything... it's probably already too late."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:25 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Hey! Its the Table of Contents to the 'Hitchhikers Guide to Crazy Talk'

Introduction by Barbara Steisand
Chapter 1: Moon Landings...Yeah Right
Chapter 2: Kennedy Really Killed by _________
Chapter 3: Elvis has not left the Building
Chapter 4: No Holocaust, All those Jews are still alive and secretly running the world from an underground bunker in Hollywood.
Chapter 5: 9/11...Not only did it never really happen, but the US Govt. is Responsible
Chapter 6: Fixed Elections since 1872
Chapter 7: Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton
Chapter 8: Reality TV and You
Chapter 9: They want your guns
Chapter 10: 101 Uses for Tin Foil
Chapter 11: Aliens from Space
Chapter 12: Aliens from Mexico
Chapter 14: Aliens from NAFTA (With a special analysis of Ross Perot's ears)
Chapter 15: What really happened to Chapter 13
Chapter 16: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Chapter 17: The Even Vaster Left Wing Conspiracy
Chapter 18: The Really Really Vast Centrist Conspiracy
Chapter 19: Contrails
Chapter 20: DUI Laws and PirateNews

Its goes on...its a long book, but doesn't really say anything.

H

Personally, I'm not sure I approve of posts which cause people to snort Pepsi out their noses, then choke on triscuit crackers whilst pounding the table trying to get air back in lungs evacuated by hysterical laughter.

Seriously, Hero--I think I need to see a doctor!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:04 AM

FLETCH2

This is magical thinking. When you look at a skyscraper it seems massive and extremely solid, it doesn't seem reasonable that a plane could damage it enough to bring it down. Once you decide that can't happen you have to find some explanation as to why it DID happen and from there things get screwy.

The problem with any structure is that it has to be able to support its own weight. For the kinds of buildings most of us live or work in, 2 or 3 story buildings, this is not an issue because the strength of the materials used greatly exceeds the forces being applied to it.

For high rise buildings though there is a problem. Usually strong means heavy, so the stronger you make a structure the heavier it is, the heavier it is the stronger it needs to be to support the extra weight. To build high you have to manage the weight and build a structure just strong enough to deal with the forces you expect to encounter. Over engineer too much and the weight/strength paradox escallates. In addition the stronger you build something the more space the structure takes up, space that you could be renting for profit.

So despite bing huge and solid looking the WTC was not massively stong, just as strong as it needed to be much like the airliner that hit it (aviation being another area where weight/stength is a tradeoff.) So despite appearences what you saw was what you got. You are right in thinking that a single plane could not destroy the WTC, but the weight of the WTC was more than capable of pulverising most of the materials used to construct it. All that was needed was something to greatly upset the ballence between the forces trying to tear the building appart and the structure holding it together.

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:04 AM

MAVOURNEEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

And how Santa can drive that sleigh around the Earth in 24 hours.

Hate to break it to you, Causal...but if Santa starts his journey on the other side of the world, due to time zones he actually has 48 hours to complete his journey. Actually, very do-able considering his magical powers.

Side note to Hero - Your list is wonderful, but now my monitor has Fresca all over it.

Quote:
Chapter 20: DUI Laws and PirateNews

Classic stuff. Classic.

*wishes she could play a .wav file of Mr Burns saying "Excellent" in this place.

I'm sorry, what was the topic?

oh, yeah. September 11th.

Is there any way I can charge someone back for the hour of my time I just wasted? Where would I send the bill?

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:25 AM

FIVVER

Antimason, this is for you...

Well I just got back from Roswell,
where the aliens have been.
And if you ask the feds the cause well,
they'll only lie again.

Now I'm hunted by the gumshoes
and I'm wanted by the cops.
Cause they think that I may be the guy
Making circles in the crops.

And I know that there's a conspiracy,
from the voices in my head.
Elvis lives it's clear to me
it's McCartney who is dead.

And if the Mars men
should come again,
and take me, I will go.
I will take a trip
on their rocket ship.
God bless the UFO.

Wish I could take credit for that but I'm not sure where I heard it.

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Not that much of a conspiracy there, Cavalier. The general population had been told by the administration that the jews were a menace that needed to be erradicated. The jews were rounded up, placed into ghettos, then trucked or trained away, never to return. What happened next didn't take a large imagination or a leap of faith. The holocaust worked so well, not because the government lied to the people, but rather because the people were ready, able, and willing to lie to themselves.

Exactly. The Holocaust worked, because of conspiratorial thinking about the Jews. The Jew was always at the center of the ills that plagued the world, sitting in his big office in his big bank, conspiring with other wealthy Jews to steal the wealth and the livelihood of the German people. The Holocaust is, in fact, a perfect example of the damage that conspiracy theories can cause when taken to their natural extreme. And the reason why we need to avoid them, particularly when they're used to generalize groups of people.

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:20 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The Holocaust is, in fact, a perfect example of the damage that conspiracy theories can cause when taken to their natural extreme. And the reason why we need to avoid them, particularly when they're used to generalize groups of people.

Wow, thats extremely well stated and an excellent point and we, if not all mankind, are enriched by having it stated so well. Thus it has no place on this board.

Didn't you read the disclaimer...

"Abandon all thought ye who post here."

H

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Back to WTC - until given solid evidence I tend toward LIHOP.

Though, I've changed my mind about Bush's potential involvement. I used to think Bush didn't know - he was so effin clueless in the class and scared spitless during his WH speech. OTOH it could be that the ones in the know told him something was going to happen, got him out of the way and clearly forgot to give him instructions. Maybe they didn't realize quite how brainless he was. And maybe they didn't tell him how BIG it was going to be and that's why he was so scaredy. So I've reversed my thinking to believe perhaps he did know something.

Many of the hijackers were Saudis. And the Bushes had close relations to the Saudi royal family and their intelligence sources. A word on the QT could easily have spread among a select group. It never came to light why Bush said he 'knew' it was bin Laden within days of the attack. But then why the US had to spend months combing through millions of papers and video tapes in Afghanistan trying to find proof.

At the same time the US was already plotting to invade Iraq because Iraq was breaking OPEC and the Saudi fortune. So the US was welcoming to the idea of an excuse to invade Iraq.

Like the Iraq war, I see 9/11 as the perfect storm of mendacity.

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Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:06 AM