ADHD.... Real disorder, or clever way to get us all on pills for life? by 6ixStringJack

Thanks for the input PR. Don't see you venturing often this way. I reckon it might be because I posted it in what is now the newest Forsaken thread. You genuinely seem happy to me pretty much any time that I've had the pleasure of speaking with you. It's great that you manage to do that and keep yourself busy with things that you enjoy without having to resort to any types of drugs, wheather the pushers are blinged out and carrying handguns or are wearing labcoats and carry stethoscopes.

Personally, I find that the drug dealer who the government allows to advertize on TV is much scarier than your average bud slinger. I've never seen a warning for marajuana in my life, because it's illegal, but I know it would be a much shorter warning than any drug on the legal market, including alcahol. There is not one single recorded case of death from overdose of marajuana or mixing THC with another substance. I'm not trying to advocate marajuana here, though I admit to partaking myself. I am simply stating that it's pretty scary when you see the newest drug ads on TV telling you that the potential side effects, usually in "serious" cases, could include impotence and death...... nice. And yet, the sheeple continue to line up for their Soma and Viagrow.

Anti - As always I appreciate your input. I try to maintain a bit of moderateness myself when it comes to the conspiracy theories when I can because frankly, nobody will listen most of the time so it's not worth my effort to bring it up anymore and the more passionate I am about something, sadly, it seems that people turn their heads even faster. I agree with your opinions here completely and that story about the FDA does not suprise me in the least. If you could find a link for that and wheather it was indeed Reagan, that would be sweet.

Oldenglanddry - Geez.... Now I know my luck can't keep up here too much longer. You too! Damn straight about choice there.

Quote:
The answer? Who knows, but if you still have the choice as to wether or not to take the pills, have the vaccinations, drink the cola with Aspartame, then self-regulate.

Wonderful. SELF-REGULATE. I know that many, including myself, are not religious in here, but does that lack of faith mean that we are slaves to our desires? Do we not have free will do do what we believe is best for us? I know it's hard, but if we don't start doing it ourselves, then our collective governments WILL do it for all of us.

Khyron - I have to say that you especially suprise me. You seem to realize that there may be a problem here as far as indoctrination and forcing people to do things that they don't want or need to do... or at the very least, you never refuted this possibility.

Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature. I must disagree with you very strongly here. Of course Science is a non living entity, completley incapable of thinking for itself or orchestrating an assault on people like the Terminator. But when it comes to defending Science from horrible and misunderstanding people like me who just revel in abusing it, you seem to conveniently forget all about how powerful Science truly is, and how you tout its undeniable power and truth when it serves your needs.

In the hands of the unscrupulous, which unfortunately usually have all of the funding which drives it, Science has been used as a weapon countless times against humanity. Ideally, you're right about Science. Guns don't kill people either, people kill people. I've had do defend a very similar battle here as well with your ability to arm yourself. I'm a firm believer in the right to bear arms. If only the rich were to have guns though while the poor were unarmed and they constantly used them to put holes in the poor, I might have to revise my stance on guns though.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Science, just as I don't like when somebody says we shouldn't have a right to bear arms, but I have control over the weapon I posess. If I was to leave my gun out and the very worst happen and some small kid blows their head off with it, there is accountability. I WILL go to jail for this horrible thing. My carelessness caused somebodie's death and now I have to pay for it. Who pays for it when a "wonderdrug" kills somebody? How many people were sent to jail when High School football players were dying from dehydration from using drugs bought at GNC that the FDA refuses to test? Not one damn person. How about Fen Fen for the weight loss? None. Not a single one of these drug harvesters or trafficers or pushers had to pay for it because as long as you have a degree and you wear a labcoat and it's all in the name of Science it's not a crime if somebody dies because there is unhealthy things being sold to the public, wheather the danger is known about or not beforehand.

I have no control how Science is used around me, particularly if there will be laws in the the future saying that I MUST be innoculated. Where does that stop? How long until there are laws saying we all need to be taking pills because Science determined that we are all more productive, happy and less inclined to strangle each other on them?

There are wings of science that are dedicated to mind control (government experiments resulting in the creation of LSD among them). Just turn on your TV at any time of day and watch the new ads for the happy pills. They're on every channel at any time of day. They're looking for that Soma and they won't stop until they find it. Now technically if you want to look at it the way you tried to tell me my comment "should" read, which by now you "should" know is the easiest way to make people not agree with you, then I suppose it is not directly Science that is causing the indoctrination. There is no question that medicine has a direct role, in that it is the medicine itself which modifies people's behavior.

You'll have a real hard time convincing me that Science is not aiding and abbeting here though. Science, quite possibly an unwilling victim here, is playing a very intregal part in the doping up of mankind. We are still in the very early stages of perfecting the drugs and having full public support for them. We'll all be able to have our "Bread and Circus" in a pill form, three times a day.

The scary difference between Religion and Science to me is that Religion was hard. It was hard to have faith. You had to work at it. It was hard to believe that there was a God that loved all of us no matter how hard it got or how bad times got.... and oftentimes people needed to rely on each other then, their family and friends for support. N

Now we've got things so easy that we don't really need to rely on each other much. Most of us don't really do much either, wheather at work or at home. We have more freetime now than we've ever had, thanks to Science, and what do we choose to do with this great gift of down time? Well.... most of us choose to feel bad about ourselves... how we look, how little money we have compared to the next guy, our looks, our failed marriages, our kids that never live up to our expectations, our parents who just don't understand, child support, alimony, infedility, that f*ing neighbor and his dog that barks all night... ect. Now for many of us the easiest fix of all is here. Who needs the hassle of religion to cope when Science has brought us our wonder drugs?

What ails ya? Whatever you need, they got a pill for it. Most of them haven't been through proper testing and many of them have very undesireable side effects, possibly death or the inability to procreate or even the desire to do such a thing. Who reads the fine print though? Maybe if you don't read the labels and pretend that these horrible side effects don't exist..... well maybe it's like Elmer Fudd and gravity and those side effects only effect you if you're aware of them. Keep your fingers crossed while they steal your emotions and make you crap yourself.

Oh yeah......

Still a tool....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:06 AM

SHINYED

I agree with you on this.....In my day there were no pills and medicines for anti-social behavior, just a long spell in after-school detention, and then some punishment from Mom & Dad....not the worst things in the world.

I also agree with your point of the absurd statistics that get thrown around these days...like the ADHD claims....would you believe that driving in to work today I heard on the radio a Psychiatrist ( talking about the Hardaway gaffe ) say that 1 out of 3 people are Gay!!!...Can ya believe that one?

Pumping people full of drugs is the exact same thing as what the Alliance did to its' citizens on Miranda.....or similar to the drug-based social lifestyles portrayed in Fahrenheit 451.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:09 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Thanks for the input PR. Don't see you venturing often this way. I reckon it might be because I posted it in what is now the newest Forsaken thread. You genuinely seem happy to me pretty much any time that I've had the pleasure of speaking with you. It's great that you manage to do that and keep yourself busy with things that you enjoy without having to resort to any types of drugs, wheather the pushers are blinged out and carrying handguns or are wearing labcoats and carry stethoscopes.

Yeah... *looks around nervously* I don't come down here much, but sometimes I'll throw in an opinion. I just don't debate. I've read some of the debates here; I'm so not that person. But i had my response to this all written from General, so I just moved it over...
I am happy. And when I'm not happy I'm content. Barring flashes of annoyance, that's about where I am.
I have nothing against science, I don't even have anything against proper use of the proper drugs, I just don't see proper use or proper drugs anywhere in Western medicine, just the highest bidder treating people as lab rats. It bothers me more than a little. Eastern medicine seems more on the ball to me, and a lot of that can barely be called 'drugs'...
Anyway, I stand where I stand and I'm never gonna let them drug me.

*scampers out*

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:07 AM

TAKEMEFLYING

I think it would be blind to say that ADHD-type medicines aren't being over-prescribed, especially to children. While there are some children (and adults) who require some medication, in conjunction with counseling and the like, most folk these days simply never learn things we used to take for granted, like self-discipline, self-control, responsibility, respect of self and others, just plain lack of expectation that *everything* should be easy and convenient at all times! And these are things that are taught by parents, caregivers, older siblings, cousins & friends, teachers and mentors - taught directly and by example, and reinforced by societal messages.

Unfortunately, things are very different now than they used to be. Life moves so very fast around us that shortcuts become very tempting, and there is a pervasive sense that hard work is no longer rewarded with the good things in life, but only by even more work. We are prime targets for the 'easy solution', whether it is a pill to keep you up, put you down, make your kid behave, make your friend happy, make your weigh drop...
We could resolve a lot of issues within ourselves and our families if we only took the time... and woke ourselves up from the "I need a big house, three cars, a plasma TV and brand new furniture every year" mode of living. Ever seen that debt commercial where this guy is going around this seemingly idyllic home & garden and saying basically "I'm in debt up to my eyebrows and can't stop; somebody help me!" through this forced grin? There it is, right there! Have one less car, appreciate the free things around you, and spend more time actually raising your kids, supporting your spouse, keeping yourself in balance.

This is not saying that these drugs don't do *any* good, but more that they can and should be prescribed to those who really do need them as part of the treatment of their condition.
The irony - at least in my life - is that while every Tom, Dick and Harry out there are getting meds to compensate for their lack of sleep/excess stress, I'm living with someone who has a medical need for anxiety reducing meds and can't get them (or the accompanying treatment). We do what we can with other coping methods like meditation, creative expression, exercise and healthy living - all the things the well-insured can't seem to take the time for, even though it would solve most of their problems.

You can't expect a government (even if it weren't in the pocket of the big corporations) to do what individuals are responsible for, pulling your own weight and helping those around you to do the same (which includes teaching and supporting those who are younger or weaker than yourself). And you can't expect a little pill to *make* you a better more balanced person - all the pill does is take the edge off so you can focus on that balance, bring it back to center.

Meh... I could go on, but I won't. *distant cheers from the room* It's a subject I'm very... worried over, lets say.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

dbl. must have been when I forgot that I sent it the first time!

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:21 AM

PENGUIN

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Let me start out by saying that my daughter was neurocompromised at birth by a brain bleed so severe she should have died. Because of her, I've met a lot of kids who're neurocompromied in one way or another, and I'm very aware of how many "brain" things can go wrong... go wrong... go wrong... DD was at one time dx with severe ADHD. She couldn't help it - all the signals were getting scrambled from seizure acitivity. SHE was miserable. WE were miserable. But it was not volitional on her part, it was compromising her ability to pay attention for more than about ten seconds at a time, and it was WAAAAY beyond what "punishment" or "reward" could handle. We did NOT give her drugs for ADHD- we were too busy trying to control her seizures- but we can certainly understand why someone would.

I think ADHD is real, and not only that it goes back to before drug treatment. Have you ever read "The Ransom of Red Chief"? Written in 1910, it describes what happens when kidnappers take a boy who is just so full of mischevious activity that they're willing to PAY the dad to take him back.

www.online-literature.com/o_henry/1041/

And then there's Dennis the Menace. a classic description of ADHD if I ever saw one! Calvin and Hobbes is another.

In fact, the brains of children with untreated ADHD are smaller on the average than the brains of treated ADHD and neurotypical controls. Something physical is going on. It think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

There is a successful treatment for many cases of ADHD that is all-natural: fish and fish oil. Our brains need a far larger amount of omega-3 and iodine than most primates (and that says something about the environment in which we evolved... but that's another story). I sometimes wonder if the reason why autism and other brain problems are increasing is the gradual generational depletion of omega-3 oils since the Catholic church did away with "meatless Fridays". I remember eating fishsticks every Friday.

But you know, come to think of it, even when I was a kid they used to refer to fish as "brain food". Huh. Well, anyway...

But for other kids (and other syndromes) there is some evidence that brain disorders ARE increasing and that it is NOT due to mercury in vaccines. (According to a Dutch study, the rates of autism were stable until mercury was REMOVED from vaccines and THEN it went up)

That being said, I think doctors reach for the pill bottle too often. Take obesity as an example- it's a societal problem, caused by urban planning that requires automobile travel and makes walking impossible, games that are produced that entice children to sit for hours at a time, the breakup up the family and/or the requirement that both parents work which encourages use of fast food and the electronic babaysitter, and even safety concerns that keep kids off the streets. But it's far easier (and more profitable) to develop a weight-loss pill than to fix the underlying problems, because THEN we might actually have to change society.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:37 AM

KHYRON

Unfortunately my life is pretty hectic these last few weeks and so I can only give you a short answer.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You seem to realize that there may be a problem here as far as indoctrination and forcing people to do things that they don't want or need to do... or at the very least, you never refuted this possibility.

I don't refute it because you have a very valid point. Absolutely it's a problem the way soft drugs are being forced on people, I completely agree with you about that part. It's a serious issue and I'm glad you brought it up.

My only objection was about blaming science itself.

Quote:
Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature.

Well, yeah, I feel that science is blameless by nature, in the way that, as you said, guns don't kill people, people do. Similarly, it's not science that abuses results and findings, it's people who do it (this includes many scientists).

Quote:
But when it comes to defending Science from horrible and misunderstanding people like me who just revel in abusing it, you seem to conveniently forget all about how powerful Science truly is, and how you tout its undeniable power and truth when it serves your needs.

I don't think I ever forget how powerful science is, in fact it's its power that I think makes it worth defending in the first place. I also don't think you (specifically) revel in abusing it, I think any "abuse" on your part is the result of being misinformed, and not because you have an agenda.

To cut a long story short, I understand your concern regarding the misuse of science and I share it, I just think one should make a distinction between science and the people who use its results for sinister purposes, because otherwise one is just giving science a bad name. The way you phrased the original post sounded a bit like an attempt at making this into a science vs the rest of the world debate, but the issue here isn't science.

We already have a couple of threads discussing the rift between science and non-science and I think it'd be a shame if this became another such thread. The topic you want to discuss is important and our disagreement on the accountability of science shouldn't detract from it.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:40 AM

DEEPGIRL187

*hesitantly decides to post*

I believe ADHD is a real disorder. I believe that there are children and adults that suffer greatly from it. What I don't believe is that drugs are the only answer, or that because it wasn't seen in older times, it's not real. ADHD is widely overdiagnosed, and often used as an excuse to deal with unruly kids. But ADHD does exist, and furthermore, it needs to be studied further in order to treat the disorder appropriately.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I have nothing against science, I don't even have anything against proper use of the proper drugs, I just don't see proper use or proper drugs anywhere in Western medicine, just the highest bidder treating people as lab rats. It bothers me more than a little. Eastern medicine seems more on the ball to me, and a lot of that can barely be called 'drugs'...
Anyway, I stand where I stand and I'm never gonna let them drug me.

I’m not sure that I would go as far as to say that there are no proper use of drugs in Western medicine, in fact, I would say that scientific use of drugs to cure and treat illness is a hallmark of Western medicine and one of the things that makes it superior in many ways to other less scientifically founded practices. Most drugs when properly prescribed and administered by a physician have benefits that far outweigh their adverse effects. But drugs can have powerful and often unpredictable effects; they aren’t and should never be viewed necessarily as a perfect solution nor should they be treated without caution.

I think one attitude that has been lost by many is the concept of reverence for nature or god in the face of medicine. The more apt we become at manipulating the world around us the more certain we are that we are the masters of it, but that is a misguided notion. Drugs should be viewed with a degree of reverence that I don’t always see. The attitude seems to be that a pill will cure anything. I have a good friend who was seriously injured while doing some construction work; doctors were able to save his life and his mobility, but he suffered a great deal of pain afterwards, and as a result is now addicted to narcotic pain medication. An addiction that ended up costing him his job, his house and his family, and if you asked him now, he would tell you that a few months of pain would have been far superior.

When it comes to things like ADHD and ADD, I think we are often too quick to search for a simple solution, trusting in the power of medication to be a simple fix for our problems. In reality, I think most ADHD and ADD can be better treated with behavioral training (a little bit of discipline and some encouragement), not medication. I was diagnosed with ADHD (or whatever they called it back in my day) and dyslexia when I was young; today I have no perceptible symptoms of either, and I’m not sure that either of those diagnoses were accurate description of any kind of medical condition, but simply symptoms of being a kid. When they wanted to put me on medication, I was frantic. I viewed that, correctly, as if I was being told that I was inadequate, retarded, and abnormal. Even as a child it was horribly insulting to me and frightening, because I wasn’t sure if I would be able to convince anyone that it wasn’t true. Eventually I was able to convince my mother that she didn’t need the advice of this schools therapist’s psychobabble. But from then on out, the school viewed me as a sub-standard student. I was never challenged; I was automatically placed in “special” classes, which I had to protest every year. We’ve gotten to a point now where we want to cure people of being kids. Being a child is not a disease.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

6string- It occurred to me that you're asking the question improperly. ADHD is a real disorder. AND it's a way to get us hooked on pills for life. Not an either/ or situation.

Many times the answer is fish oil...
www.unisa.edu.au/researcher/issue/2006January/story4.asp
www.fabresearch.org/view_item.aspx?item_id=805

Controlling sleep apnea in children (and adults) ... www.healthcare.uiowa.edu/cdd/multiple/centerlines/CL_fall_2003.pdf

And behavioral modifications and/or changes in assigned tasks.

For the FEW kids who don't respond to these benign interventions, drugs may be necessary.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:30 AM

DOTCOMEDYARABIA

did you see this: http://www.dotcomedy.com/laugh/

we put it up today

Joss Whedon talking about directing The Office

feel free to link to it or whatever... I'm trying to let as many people know as possible.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:36 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

As someone who is ADHD, I think it is real. It is not behaviorial. It is chemical. My brain scan looks very different from a non-ADHD brain. I am not a discipline problem. I do not have a respect problem. When I am medicated, I feel normal. Still my zany self, but normal, like I can actaully succeed. When I am not on medication, I am hit and miss...more often miss. It's frustrating. It's depressing. Don't say it's all in my head (it is, but you know what I mean)...I've tried various treatments. Very specific drugs work and many drugs/treatments did not work. A modified diet does help somewhat but not as well as meds. I can't afford meds. Woot.

Do I think it's overdiagnosed? Maybe. I think it's more that it is misdiagnosed. Often the children diagnosed have behaviorial problems not ADHD. People who have it don't get diagnosed because they've created coping strategies that hide their problem. This just makes it worse. As a child, I was very good at hiding my problem. It's easy to hide in school; I was just the weird misfit. However, as an adult, the environment does not lend itself to hiding. It became impossible to get by. I had to seek medical help.

I've tried to do it on my own. I used to hate myself because I had to take medicine. It seems so strange. Why can't I just do it! I want to be able to...believe me, I wish I could live without them. It doesn't work. It's just like glasses. You need the lens to focus. The drugs help my mind focus. People that know me can tell if I'm medicated. They know. It's that obvious.

I wish I could afford the medicine I need.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
We’ve gotten to a point now where we want to cure people of being kids. Being a child is not a disease.

Yep. My dad is diagnosed as ADHD and jumps from drug to drug to 'combat' it. He says I have it too.
I forget what's not in front of me...that's why I write notes, and hold my keys in front of me before I lock the house or car door.
Everything's in degrees. Wanna give a full spectrum anti-biotic to someone with a small cold...or should we save it for the serious cases? Better for the pharmasuitical industry to give it to both.
EVERYONE has this attention def thing, EVERYONE has moments where the get distracted, or can't rightly remember stuff.
Save the meds for the serious cases.

Just my two--hey! look at that bird! Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I wanted to re-iterate from my previous post:

In fact, the brains of children with untreated ADHD are smaller on the average than the brains of treated ADHD and neurotypical controls. Something physical is going on. I think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

That's what I used to tell my teachers when they asked me why I didn't "WANT" to remember my homework. Today I'd get drugs for that.

My point is that there's a line where on one side it's a simple life irritation as opposed to a full-blown and physically diagnosable brain problem on the other. Brain problems should be taken seriously and treated; forgetting homework and such should not be in the purview of physicians and therapists.

Just my- Oh look! Another bird! Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I have an even harder time believing this is true than I do that we all need mandatory vaccinations for whatever the disease of the day is. I've even seen advertisements on TV saying that 1 out of every 166 kids born has autism. AUTISM!!!!!

1 out of 166 have Autism!

Autism covers a very large swath of disorders, many of which are relatively mild. When you say Autism you are probably thinking of the mute, windowlicking kind of Autism, but milder forms (like Asperger's) are quite common.

Quote:
WTF? Man.... we keep letting science dictate our lives, especially considering they're always changing their minds anyways, we're all going to be on pills to modify our behavior from birth.

Other people have already mentioned this but I want to support it. Science and scientists are not at fault for this, corporations and capitalism are. Scientists are given a problem and they look for a solution, corporations want to make money off of the research that scientists do, the only way that drug companies can do that is by convincing people that they need the drugs that have just been developed. It is the same thing as when developers try to convince us that we really need a 10000 square foot house or car companies insist that a Navigator will make us happier.

As for your comment about changing their minds, you have used this before and it is still an inappropriate arguement, when new research is done or new effects discovered scientists alter their concliusions, it's the basis of science. If all scientists stayed the course no matter what new evidence came up we would still think that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.

Quote:
How about you tell me, once and for all, if milk from a cow is good for me or not before you start giving my baby anti-autism treatments... thanks.

The thing is that some food have detrimental effects, the question of whether they are still preferable depends on whether or not the detrimental effects are outweighed by the beneficial, opinions on this will vary.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that these kids are just the ones who would have been leaders of their smaller communities in days long gone.

ADHD is vastly overdiagnosed, but if the other option is to let my kids grow up to be political leaders (politicians), then I'm not so sure they aren't better off medicated

Quote:
who needs anybody that's got half a brain and a boatload of energy behind it anyhow?

The drug companies so that they can make new drugs?

Quote:
Wouldn't you rather just watch American Idol on your Prozac and not think about anything important at all?

I'll take the Prozac but I'll pass on American Idol thanks.

Quote:
I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

Perhaps because religion doesn't help sick people? Or maybe because religion pushes people to fanaticism, while drugs make them docile? Or maybe because science answers questions while religion avoids them?

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I agree, and ...

what was I saying?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:05 AM

KHYRON

Nice post, Fred.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

MY ADHD went untreated until way past middle age. Except for a self-perception as a screw-up, I had enough brain power, and/or my ADHD wasn't bad enough, and/or my life situation was forgiving enough, that I muddled on through. But there were many times I literally could not read through a single sentence without getting derailed.

Then life got more demanding and I couldn't afford to spend the extra hours at work trying to get things done.

ADHD is real. If I could have 'made' it go away by willpower, I would have, and spared my self a world of hurt.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:26 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
1 out of 166 have Autism!

As someone else has mentioned, Autism includes many things. There are mild and severe cases. Until you've worked with these children, which I have, you have no idea the range and complexitites you can experience.

Quote:
They are the most intelligent and outside of the box thinkers mankind has to offer...

Why thank you.

Quote:
Aren't intelligent freethinkers boring anyhow with all their talk about things that can make your head hurt? Wouldn't you rather just watch American Idol on your Prozac and not think about anything important at all?

Not one person would ever call me boring. That sounds like an awful way to live...sedated on Prozac and watching reality tv. Ick. I'd rather be institutionalized than live like that.

Quote:
I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

Speaking as a religious person...How about all the war and death overzealous religions have caused?

I'm stepping outside my comfort zone here. You know I'm not up to the sparring standards in Real World discussions.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:21 PM

STARRBABY

Must . .. .resist . . .urge . . . to post. Awww screw it. I'm sickof lurking for the last year. I used to be very mouthy on here, but haven't had time to be since I bcame a slave ..I mean mother.

Anyway, this is a very important issue to me. I have seen both sides of the coin, too.

I personally know an 11-year old with horrid grades that got straight A's after taking medication.

I also am married to someone who has ADHD before everyone else did. He was just told to sit down, shut up, and focus. His teacher would put a timer on his desk to make him do his work.

Now days, that teacher would have gotten in trouble, but my husband got his work done. He also got through childhood without medication - he is now a 6 figure computer geek.

We all have little stories - my point is, differnt things work for differnt people.

I could have just typed that last scentece, couldn't I. Would have saved me a buttload of time.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
it's pretty scary when you see the newest drug ads on TV telling you that the potential side effects, usually in "serious" cases, could include impotence and death...... nice.

Well, if their doctor is forward with the potential side effects then it's their decision isn't it? If the benefit outweighs the risk...

Quote:
Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature. I must disagree with you very strongly here. Of course Science is a non living entity, completley incapable of thinking for itself or orchestrating an assault on people like the Terminator.

Then why do you capitalize it? Your term "Science" seems to refer to something different from science as it is generally understood. You seem to believe that "Science" has the goal of enslaving mankind, science on the other hand wants to figure out how to fix problems. This "Science" you keep refering to seems to be exactly the monolithic, evil entity that you are saying it isn't here.

Quote:
In the hands of the unscrupulous, which unfortunately usually have all of the funding which drives it, Science has been used as a weapon countless times against humanity.

And it has been used to help humanity much more often. You touched on the truth here, the problem is not science, the problem is people.

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I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Science

That seems to be the gist of every post you have made on the topic though.

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Who pays for it when a "wonderdrug" kills somebody? How many people were sent to jail when High School football players were dying from dehydration from using drugs bought at GNC that the FDA refuses to test? Not one damn person. How about Fen Fen for the weight loss? None.

Take at your own risk, personal responsibility. If I sell motor oil and someone drinks it am I to blame? If you want everything sold in "health" stores to be tested by the FDA then you'd better be ready for the tax hike to pay for it. Additionally, I'm fairly certain that lawsuits were filed and won in those cases.

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I have no control how Science is used around me particularly if there will be laws in the the future saying that I MUST be innoculated. Where does that stop?

This is politics that you are worried about not science. Additionally mandatory innoculations are what allowed us to eliminate Polio, Smallpox and the like, you may not like the idea, but if anyone is allowed to opt out of an eradication effort then the disease will continue to hang around. Plus, if you don't get vaccinated then when you get sick MY health care prices go up, I have to deal with a more crowded hospital, I have to get exposed to more virulent strains of disease in the hospitals, and I have to face the possibility that you will breed drug-resistant strains of bacteria.

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How long until there are laws saying we all need to be taking pills because Science determined that we are all more productive, happy and less inclined to strangle each other on them?

Once again, this is politics, not science. Science makes the drugs because there is a demand for happy pills, POLITICS decides to make them mandatory.

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Just turn on your TV at any time of day and watch the new ads for the happy pills. They're on every channel at any time of day. They're looking for that Soma and they won't stop until they find it.

Of course, you live in capitalist society. Drug companies see money to made in the happy pill industry, people want them and want them bad, so the companies make them.

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then I suppose it is not directly Science that is causing the indoctrination.

You've almost got it here...

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There is no question that medicine has a direct role, in that it is the medicine itself which modifies people's behavior.

Ooooooo, you lost it. Most people CHOOSE to go out and look for medication to make themselves feel better, it's been that way since long before science was an industry of its own. The medical community provides the drugs to shut up the people who keep whining about their problems or to actually improve the lives of people who actually have problems.

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You'll have a real hard time convincing me that Science is not aiding and abbeting here though. Science, quite possibly an unwilling victim here, is playing a very intregal part in the doping up of mankind.

Drug companies hire people to develop better drugs because there is a DEMAND for better drugs. If you have a way to make everyone happy without drugs then the demand will go away. Science is merely a tool of capitalism looking to make a profit.

Quote:
The scary difference between Religion and Science to me is that Religion was hard. It was hard to have faith. You had to work at it. It was hard to believe that there was a God that loved all of us no matter how hard it got or how bad times got.... and oftentimes people needed to rely on each other then, their family and friends for support.

If you stop looking at holy books that directly contradict what we know about the world then religion and science can co-exist. The problem arises when religious people insist that scientists are wrong when science disagrees with religion.

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Now we've got things so easy that we don't really need to rely on each other much. Most of us don't really do much either, wheather at work or at home. We have more freetime now than we've ever had, thanks to Science, and what do we choose to do with this great gift of down time? Well.... most of us choose to feel bad about ourselves... how we look, how little money we have compared to the next guy, our looks, our failed marriages, our kids that never live up to our expectations, our parents who just don't understand, child support, alimony, infedility, that f*ing neighbor and his dog that barks all night... ect.

And this is the fault of science? How? This is the result of capitalism not science, a capitalist society runs off of the willingness of the people to consume, the best way to make people consume is to make them unhappy with their life. These problems are a result of capitalism not science.

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Now for many of us the easiest fix of all is here. Who needs the hassle of religion to cope when Science has brought us our wonder drugs?

So religion is an inferior path and that is sciences fault? BS. Once again the capitalist system is one of gratification, people want to be happy and they want it now.

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What ails ya? Whatever you need, they got a pill for it. Most of them haven't been through proper testing and many of them have very undesireable side effects, possibly death or the inability to procreate or even the desire to do such a thing. Who reads the fine print though?

This is between the people taking the pills and their own desires. If the benefits outweigh the side effects, then it's their choice. As for the untested ones, take at your own risk, if you are dumb enough to consume something without checking up on it first then whatever happens is your own damn fault.

Last, there is a couple options, scientific research or willful ignorance and stagnation. One of these is sustainable and beneficial, the other isn't.

Also, for anyone who wants to call me a Communist. I like capitalism, but no system if flawless, and the problems that he points out ARE a product of the capitalist system.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I'm stepping outside my comfort zone here. You know I'm not up to the sparring standards in Real World discussions.

You seem to be doing fine so far, we can use more combatants here

Quote:
---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

Took almost a week for me.

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:34 PM

CANTTAKESKY

6ix,

1. There is a difference between science and technology.

2. There is a difference between science and scientists.

3. ADHD is real (I've seen it with my own eyes), but is often misdiagnosed and therefore overdiagnosed. Just how often this misdiagnosis takes place is subject to debate, but very few people (mostly scientologists it seems) would deny that there aren't SOME people who genuinely suffer from this disorder.

4. The autism epidemic is real. The definition of autism has expanded, and many people who have autism spectrum disorder are highly functional. But the number of severely dysfunctional children and adults with autism itself has skyrocketed. This is an undisputed fact.

5. We don't know what is causing the increase in cases of ADHD and autism. So many changes have occurred in our society in the last few decades. More hospital births, more caesarians, more vaccines, more TV, more electromagnetic pollution, more air pollution, more water pollution, more absentee parents, more divorces, more meds, more lawsuits, more people, more carbon dioxide, more government corruption, more autoimmune diseases, more openness to homosexuality, more openness to racial and gender equality, more Head Start centers, etc.

6. We don't know what is the safest and most effective way to improve the functioning of people who suffer from these disorders. Chances are, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Parents probably have to experiment with what works best, be it diet, occupational therapy, psychotherapy, laissez-faire, acupuncture, homeopathy, vitamins, or meds.

7. There are unscrupulous people in all levels of society who take advantage of science, technology, parental desperation, and teacher frustration, to push products and ideology that serves their best interests more than those of the children in question.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

More chemicals overall. There are hundreds of thousands of chemicals that didn't exist before WWII. (Back in the not so far past when everything was 'organic'.) Who knows what the witches brew is doing?

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:07 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Anti - If you could find a link for that and wheather it was indeed Reagan, that would be sweet.

this first link is a local news network covering aspartame, the second is a clip from a documentary which expands on Rumsfelds relationship in it all

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Friday, February 16, 2007 3:25 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yep. My dad is diagnosed as ADHD and jumps from drug to drug to 'combat' it. He says I have it too.
I forget what's not in front of me...that's why I write notes, and hold my keys in front of me before I lock the house or car door.
Everything's in degrees. Wanna give a full spectrum anti-biotic to someone with a small cold...or should we save it for the serious cases? Better for the pharmasuitical industry to give it to both.
EVERYONE has this attention def thing, EVERYONE has moments where the get distracted, or can't rightly remember stuff.
Save the meds for the serious cases.

I’ve never been convinced that ADHD is real; I suppose that there could be such a disease, but I’ll have to base that squarely on the benefit of the doubt, which after my experience with therapists, I’m not keen to give out too generously.

When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster. I have no doubt that these traits vary in severity from person to person in some more-or-less random distribution, just like every other trait, and it’s entirely possible and reasonable to expect that in a large enough sample some people may end up with a large dose of these traits and fewer of the other traits that they may prefer. And I can see how some people who are particularly hyper, impulsive or have short attention spans may find employment or education in certain fields difficult, but I’m not prepared to say that this is a psychological illness, because to some degree that describes half the people I know, including myself sometimes, and all the teenagers. What about people with no sense of humor? I bet that if you did a study of people with no sense of humor, you would discover that their brains differed slightly from those who did have a sense of humor. Not many of us would accept that being dull is a disease. Our behavior, however benign, is in some way connected with our brains. Our brains also reflect innate subconscious constructs that we may not even be aware of. I recently heard that every male brain (I’m assuming heterosexual) reflects contempt for images of naked men. Does that mean that if you don’t display an attitude of homophobia, you’re sick or abnormal? There are just seems to be so many perils with trying to discreetly label common everyday traits as symptoms some kind of psychological illness.

The problem here is that the world is changing and our lives are no longer dependent on scraping furrows in the dirt or running people throw in the King’s army. More and more our lives are dependent on being highly knowledgeable about the world around us. We don’t live in a world were only 5% of the population reads or understands the latest theories in turning lead into gold. The average person today learns more from books and formal education before they graduate from High School then most people learned in their lifetime only a couple hundred years ago. And what can you do with a high school education? Not much. If you want the good jobs you’ve got to go to college, which further emphasize the burden. The modern lifestyle has begun to place an enormous strain on society’s ability to sit still, and I wonder that this is all ADHD is.

It wasn’t too long ago that people with an aptitude for science and mathematics were viewed with contempt by popular culture. They were nerds and geeks. Why? Because their own particularly personality allowed them to sit and pay attention more comfortably then the average person? Perhaps they suffered from DDD (Distraction Deficient Disorder). Today nerds are almost celebrated, because society has figured that that these guys are ones making all the money in a world where technology has replaced agriculture. Now everyone wants in on it, but not everyone is suited to be a nerd.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 3:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There's more to ADD/ADHD than sitting still. When the Ritalin's kicked in I can think from the beginning of one thought to the next, listen to the end of a sentence, or read to the end of a sentence in less than 10 tries. That doesn't normally require a lot of sitting, just keeping one thought in place for more than 2 seconds.

And there are usually other things that go along with ADD/ADHD, in my case visual processing problems (tho on the plus side subliminal imaging will never work on me).

This kind of thing isn't compatible with life where most people survived as part of a group and every life was full of opportunities to live or die.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There's more to ADD/ADHD than sitting still. When the Ritalin's kicked in I can think from the beginning of one thought to the next, listen to the end of a sentence, or read to the end of a sentence in less than 10 tries.

In my father's case, I remember as a child wondering why he couldn't watch a whole TV show from beginning to end. He channel surfed before the phrase was coined. But he went to school and got his degree with ADHD so I'm assuming it was a mild form. He says he focuses better with ritalin...cool. It's just he's always experimenting with doses, and other meds from Canada, as if he'll somehow reach this perfect awareness, like no amount of focus is good enough now. I think he's a Focus addict! Do you think he needs an intervention? Like in Clockwork Orange- sit him down with no meds and MAKE him watch ALL seven seasons of Buffy, after which there'd be a comprehension test?

Tough Attention Chrisisall

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Friday, February 16, 2007 5:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I bet that if you did a study of people with no sense of humor, you would discover that their brains differed slightly from those who did have a sense of humor. Not many of us would accept that being dull is a disease.

Well I would. Observe Hero; he's a closet Dullard, he tries SO hard to be funny...he's in denial and need help.

Quote:
I recently heard that every male brain (I’m assuming heterosexual) reflects contempt for images of naked men. Does that mean that if you don’t display an attitude of homophobia, you’re sick or abnormal? There are just seems to be so many perils with trying to discreetly label common everyday traits as symptoms some kind of psychological illness.

See, when you go to the funny place, you're both subtle and effective...no DSH there (Dull Sense of Humour).

Okay, seriously, like Signy says, the brains of ADHD peeps measure smaller, and my dad says the purpose of the prescribed drugs is neurogenisis. So I can see that it's an actual disease in some. In the past, these individuals might have made bad farmers (imagine planting row after row of crops all day long with ADD?), but good court jesters (imagine Robin Williams making the King laugh).

And that's- OH CRAP!!! MY FRIES ARE BURNING!!! Chrisisall, not on ritalin

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Friday, February 16, 2007 7:12 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease

Well, that is true. Having one or two "symptoms" or having all the "symptoms" mildly doesn't get you diagnosed with the disorder. And if it does, then there is some serious misdiagnosis going on, which does happen all too often unfortunately.

But there are people who have these "symptoms" or traits, if you will, to the extent that it causes an inability to function productively and much subjective suffering. Good diagnosticians take the whole picture into account, including social dynamics, current functioning vs. current potential, other possible diagnoses/disorders, and personal well-being.

If a child has an IQ of 145, but is getting D's and F's because she refuses to sit still or be quiet in class long enough to do any work or complete tests (despite the most rigorous and consistent discipline), runs around her classroom and her desk at will, disrupts other children, doesn't hear teachers, etc., then something is wrong. Slapping a Dx and shoving Ritalin down her throat is all too often a lazy solution. But suggesting the wrong solution doesn't dismiss the fact that something isn't working for this girl like for other children.

If I were a diagnostician, I would rule out other disorders such as Sensory Processing Disorder or Central Auditory Processing Disorder. I'd investigate family dynamics and lifestyle to see if something else might be contributing to her behavioral problems. I'd look at classroom dynamics for the same thing. I'd look at how she was able to concentrate well enough for the IQ test, and investigate the possibility that these problems might be caused by intellectual understimulation. I would interview her to see how happy she is with various aspects of her life.

It could be that the child actually has SPD, and not ADHD, coupled with a high maintenance personality that needs a lot of emotional reassurance. Maybe the parents don't give her as much attention as she needs and placate her with too much junk food and candy and toys. Maybe she craves stronger intellectual challenges and is running around because she is literally bored out of her mind.

It could be the lasting solution in this case is to take her out of school and homeschool, allowing her to work at her own intellectual level. Occupational therapy can help resolve some sensory processing problems, and help the parents be aware of her sensory needs. Her parents could schedule quality time to give her the emotional attention she craves. Eliminating excess sugar and junk food from her diet could mitigate some of that uncontrolled energy.

Making an accurate diagnosis is a very tedious and involved process to which some school psychologists are not willing or able to commit. Finding a solution that truly meets the child's needs is a very tedious and involved process to which some parents are not willing or able to commit. And the child gets mislabeled and mistreated so everyone else can have an easier life.

But denying her "ADHD" and treating the child like she doesn't have a problem isn't the answer either. Dismissing her dysfunction with platitudes like a "child will be a child" or "she'll grow out of it" is just as much a disservice to her as putting her on Ritalin. It is also an easy way out, without having to do any work.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

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Friday, February 16, 2007 7:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster.

Certainly, but when they are outside the human norm then it is a disorder, just like diabetes or giantism, you just can't see it as easily. So then the question is it causing problems? If yes then does the detriment of the medication outweigh the benefit?

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Friday, February 16, 2007 9:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

*Romulan Lurking Mode:Off*

Aw hell, and here I was gonna go back to lurking cause of the extremely polarized hostility here and y'all had to go and get all reasonable and rational on me.

And now TWG shows up, who's basically a pavlovian trigger for random acts of kindness, not to mention having the same effect on grumpiness that sunlight has on vampires.

Sooo, first things first, in reference to altered brain development, not just accidents of birth, but also extreme trauma and repeated neglect can alter not just the chemical pathways, but even it's physical structure.
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/neuros~1.asp

There's more than one flavor of altered devlopment however, so there is no one size fits all solution - that's where it's between your doc, your therapist and your family and not one bit of the durned governments business.

Just imagine trying to live a normal life with most of your emotions so muted you can't figure out what they are, and having to actually work at it very hard to form any kind of attachment to another person, diminished capacity sucks horribly, and all the worse because it is invisible or often percieved as a strength...

Anyhows, got two things for ya TWG.
http://itc.gsu.edu/academymodules/a304/support/xpages/a304b0_20600.htm
l
Mnemonic Enhancement is a useful thing versus attention span issues, and while it doesn't always work, being able to focus and distill a thought or concept and then *pin* it to an object relies on memory rather than attention span, and sight-recognition trigger can be useful for keeping track of things.

The hard part is getting the thought focused and distilled quick before you lose it, pinning it to the item is a seperate skill that takes practice and seemingly some folk never master it.

Still, it could be useful - I know of two people who use this technique with refrigerator magnets and one who uses a PDA with a symbol keyboard, so maybe you'll find some use of it.

Second thing...
http://www.seelecttea.com/product_info.php?products_id=43

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/PrintablePages/herbMonograph/0,11475,4093
,00.html

This stuff's an old folk remedy for rowdy children and PMS miseries, Catnip is a mild calmative with little or no side effects outside of rare cases of slightly increased sex drive.

Unless of course you chug a whole bag of it like a college fratboy trying to impress the masses, then you might get a little ill

A more recent common use of it is to mediate symptoms of PTSD, slowing down the chemical escalation into fight/freeze/flight mode long enough to think it over and try to chill out, rather than going straight to the freakage.

If it works for ya, try growing your own, just don't carry it around with you in a baggie, boy oh boy THAT was an interesting incident with the cops indeed.... i'm sure you can imagine.

Anyhows, there's yer TWG-pavlovian-reaction act of kindness for the day, and i'm gonna go lurk for a while some more...

-F
*Romulan Lurking Mode:On*

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Friday, February 16, 2007 10:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I still wonder if it isn't related to lack of omega-3. Since the body can't make it and the only source is food, and it makes up a huge part of the brain dry-weight, if you don't get in in your food you inevitably short the brain.

As the fetus develops it draws omega-3 from the mom's bloodstream (which is moblized fomr her brain if she doens't get enough in her diet). Over generations the store of omega-3 gets smaller and smaller. Not that this is the ONLY factor, but it's certainly worth looking into.
----------------------
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Children of mothers who ate more fish and other seafood while pregnant are smarter and have better developmental skills than kids of women who ate less or none, researchers said on Thursday in findings they called surprising.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070215/hl_nm/seafood_pregnancy_dc;_ylt=Av
sv98oil16bBa04QveSs5fMWM0F

---------------------------------
Fish- they don't call ir "brain food" for nuthin'!

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Friday, February 16, 2007 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Children of mothers who ate more fish and other seafood while pregnant are smarter and have better developmental skills than kids of women who ate less or none, researchers said on Thursday in findings they called surprising.

Did you check the source Signy? It seems fishy.

*They don't call me "Easy Joke Chrisisall" for nuthin'

*

I read that consuming fish oils can take care of very mild ADHD....

The Chrisisall from Atlantis

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Friday, February 16, 2007 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Aw hell, and here I was gonna go back to lurking cause of the extremely polarized hostility here and y'all had to go and get all reasonable and rational on me.

Well we can go back to be irrational and hostile if you want us to

, I think if you wait for a few minutes...

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Friday, February 16, 2007 1:19 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster.

Certainly, but when they are outside the human norm then it is a disorder, just like diabetes or giantism, you just can't see it as easily. So then the question is it causing problems? If yes then does the detriment of the medication outweigh the benefit?

I don’t want to appear insensitive to other people’s problems. I realize that a lot people take this very seriously, and I’m not necessarily saying that it’s not a serious thing. What I’m saying is it doesn’t appear to be something that rises to the level of a disease. Some people are assholes, and that kind of thing can seriously impair a person’s ability to function, both socially and at work. My cousin recently got fired essentially for being an asshole. But assholism is not a disease; I would consider it a serious problem, but it’s not a disease. And I’m not saying or implying in any way that people diagnosed with ADHD are assholes, I’m simply pointing out that extreme personality traits do not a disease make. I also realize that the experts, perhaps most or all of them, disagree with me; although at least one expert on the subject that I know of is an idiot. You’ll have to take what I say on this matter with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert, I have my experiences and this is the impression that I have. That’s all.

I think Signym point of nutritional deficiencies being a culprit is a salient one. Poor nutrition plays a big roll in most people’s personality, far more so then most people realize, I think. For instance, dehydration is a common cause of chronic headaches that can lead people to be very irritable. Just drinking more water in a day can make you a nicer and more productive person.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 3:34 PM

I'm not in the mood, nor do I have the time to rehash the science good/bad debate here. I think we're very close to agreement about a lot of that but there are some fundamental differences in our views that aren't going to change so I'm opting not to split those hairs with you all. This is a dead end, and I'm not going to take the bait.

For now, I'll just ask you if you think that PAX from Serenety is any good indication of where we're heading. Are we, as human beings who aren't known for our good judgement, bound to find ourselves in a PAX/AI/Terminator 2/Matrix type future, even though we have all of the warnings out there already about being responsible with our use of science? People want to take away gun ownership rights because there are a few careless and unscrupulous people who do wrong with them. I think if anything we've agreed that science is a gun. Science is a very powerful thing that can be used to help and protect the human race, prolong life, and raise the quality of life for all if in the right hands and used for good, but a double edged sword which so often in our lifetimes has been responsible for cancer, birth defects and holocausts. Sadly, the people who fund and, in essence, own science so often tend to be the latter. I'm not saying we need to "take science away", but considering how powerful it is, I would feel safer if I knew somebody I trusted more than your governments or mine were the ones who ran it.

The warnings I mentioned above, of course, consist not only of the great sci fi novels we've all read or blockbuster Hollywood movies, but warnings from thousands of years ago such as Revelations which said that we would all live in a one world government (The UN) and all listen to one leader who will be able to communicate with every person on the planet (wireless, satellite, computers), and we'll all be unable to work/eat without the mark of the beast (cashless, credit-based society anyone?). I can't say for sure because I've never read about it, but I would imagine that Christianity is not the only religion with such a grim outlook on the future.

Again, I reiterate, I am not a religious man. I am, however, pretty well read in things that interest me and the Bible's predictions of the future in Revelations enthrall me. I can't seem to get my head around some of the undeniable coincidences when compared to our current state of affairs. Anyone who actually reads any of my posts knows that I am not a believer in coincidence, so not being a religious man either I find myself in quite a conundrum.

I believe the stage is set. I think we're too smart for our own good. IMHO we have far too much power with far too little knowledge and common sense and foresight to back it up. I'll even give you that it wasn't the scientist's intent in his/her heart to create the devices which will enslave/destroy us, but as my Gram says, the path to hell was paved with good intentions.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, February 16, 2007 3:56 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some people are assholes, and that kind of thing can seriously impair a person’s ability to function, both socially and at work. My cousin recently got fired essentially for being an asshole. But assholism is not a disease; I would consider it a serious problem, but it’s not a disease.

Sometimes it is. Narsassistic Personality Disorder essentially means someone acts like an arsehole but is nonetheless a disease, or disorder, either way.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm not in the mood, nor do I have the time to rehash the science good/bad debate here. I think we're very close to agreement about a lot of that but there are some fundamental differences in our views that aren't going to change so I'm opting not to split those hairs with you all. This is a dead end, and I'm not going to take the bait.

So instead of backing up an indefensible position you are just going to dodge the arguement? Alright works for me.

Quote:
For now, I'll just ask you if you think that PAX from Serenety is any good indication of where we're heading.

Not in our lifetimes, probably not in our childrens or grandchildrens. Honestly I think by the time we get to that stage we will have already proven Einstein right "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Quote:
Are we, as human beings who aren't known for our good judgement, bound to find ourselves in a PAX/AI/Terminator 2/Matrix type future, even though we have all of the warnings out there already about being responsible with our use of science?

Yes, no matter what we do to "Science" we will find a way to self destruct, it's in our nature.

Quote:
People want to take away gun ownership rights because there are a few careless and unscrupulous people who do wrong with them. I think if anything we've agreed that science is a gun.

No, guns exist for only one purpose, shooting things. There is legitimate purposes for shooting things, but all to often people use guns for non-legitimate purposes. OTOH science has a vast array of uses, most of which are incapable of harming anyone even accidentally. As a side note, I am pro-gun control, but anti-gun-ban, I think that a society void of weaons is just asking for trouble, but at the same time heavy machine guns shouldn't be sold on street corners.

Quote:
Science is a very powerful thing that can be used to help and protect the human race, prolong life, and raise the quality of life for all if in the right hands and used for good, but a double edged sword which so often in our lifetimes has been responsible for cancer, birth defects

True, but if you want to talk numbers... Science has done far more good than bad in the cancer and birth defect areas, more people get cancer now than before because they live long enough. Cancer is inevitable, it's just a question of if you live lng enough to get it. As for birth defects science can be used to determine what is causing the birth defects and correct it.

Quote:
and holocausts.

???????????? I say again ??????????? what the hell are you talking about?

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Sadly, the people who fund and, in essence, own science so often tend to be the latter.

BS, the vast majority of science is beneficial to mankind. I'd like to see you prove this.

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I'm not saying we need to "take science away"

Maybe not explicitally but you are constantly on the verge of saying it.

Quote:
but considering how powerful it is, I would feel safer if I knew somebody I trusted more than your governments or mine were the ones who ran it.

Like who? This is a people problem not a science problem, power corrupts so whoever we put in charge will likely end up acting against your wishes. Besides that huge swaths of scientific research are in the hands of universities, and corporations instead of the government.

Quote:
but warnings from thousands of years ago such as Revelations which said that we would all live in a one world government (The UN) and all listen to one leader who will be able to communicate with every person on the planet (wireless, satellite, computers), and we'll all be unable to work/eat without the mark of the beast (cashless, credit-based society anyone?).

I fail to see what this has to do with science. The one world government thing is political and social in nature, not scientific. As for communication, if the other option is taking weeks to comminicate with the next town over I know what my choice is (bring on the Armageddon baby). As for the last thing, once again it's social in nature, I prefer cash myself anyways and I don't think cash is going away for a few more generations.

Quote:
I believe the stage is set. I think we're too smart for our own good.

Most definitely not, this is the only real point that you have though, most people aren't smart enough to deal with the tools and abilities that science gives us, but that is more of a people probem still.

Quote:
IMHO we have far too much power with far too little knowledge and common sense and foresight to back it up

'nother people problem, unrelated to science.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 4:59 PM

I'm through arguing with you Fred. You are a bullheaded idiot. You miss my points entirely. You are quite a boring person, and a broken record to boot.

I think I'd have more luck getting through that tunnel-visioned head of yours if I stuck to 2 syllable words and only one thought per post.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, February 16, 2007 5:35 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And now TWG shows up, who's basically a pavlovian trigger for random acts of kindness, not to mention having the same effect on grumpiness that sunlight has on vampires.

Well, that brightened the day for me.

Thank you, all of you, for the links and references. I'm always up for trying modifications in diet and habit. There are things I do that help. For instance, I keep a calendar...and it's always beeping at me. oi. Meds can get expensive.

That is an interesting idea about fish. I try to get as much omega3 as I can. I love fish and seafood. In fact, I eat a fairly balanced diet.

ADHD can be debilitating in some people. It is also a disorder that is often accompanied by something else. Comorbidity can cause misdiagnosis or poor treatment. For instance, if someone suffers from depression, treat that first and then treat the ADHD. Some disorders can look like ADHD early in diagnosis: Conduct Disorder, OCD, Bipolar and drug addiction just to name a few. Obviously treating an addict like she has ADHD won't help. However, a lot ADHD are addicts of some kind. They constantly try to find something to self medicate...but once again, you must treat the addict before you can treat the ADHD.

I guess Sixstring really just wants to know if we're overmedicating as a society. Perhaps. I don't know. Some doctors give out too much, some not enough. Do I think this will lead to a PAX event? No. Why? Because as much as I want to function like a normal human being, I want to be me. I want to keep my unique personality and outlook on life. I think that is true for most people. Call me an idealist, but I like to believe people will stand up for themselves and each other.

*cue new debate about the oppression of societies worldwide...

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Friday, February 16, 2007 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm through arguing with you Fred. You are a bullheaded idiot.

Likewise.

Quote:
You miss my points entirely.

Try explaining them then. What exactly is your point?

Quote:
and a broken record to boot.

I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself, if you throw out a new argument, or bring some proof that science is really as bad as you say it is then I will not have to repeat myself. But all you do is say "science is bad" and throw out a bunch of things that can't be attributed to science, or are incorrect.

Quote:
I think I'd have more luck getting through that tunnel-visioned head of yours if I stuck to 2 syllable words and only one thought per post.

Actually I have one of the most extensive vocabularies of anyone I know (especially in my age group), and almost everyone who knows me personally thinks I'm very smart. I've spent many a night in extensive discussions with my friends about philosopy, governemnt, science, religion and the like, frequently in one discussion.

The issue at hand is that you are either unable or unwilling to articulate your points, and when I call you out on something that is incorrect like when you blame science for social or political problems you just shut down. Try giving me facts instead of unsubstantiated opinions and clearly articulating your points and we will see where things go.

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Friday, February 16, 2007 5:46 PM