Examining Anti-Americanism by Khyron

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Examining Anti-Americanism

POSTED BY: KHYRON
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 06:25
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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 12:07 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Poor Geezer- look at him ranting about anti-Americanism! Do you want to feel aggrieved? Pobrecito!

Well. I'd respond to this, but since maintaining your level of discourse would probably require the use of the words "cooties" and "booger-head", I think I'll skip it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 12:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals."

This is a good bit of mud-slinging. No wonder Americans come across as arrogant and ignorant.

You think pobrecito is a bad word? My, we are touchy today, aren't we. Oh wait a minute. I should just be ignoring the flame-bait. Nevermind.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 12:55 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rue:
As I mentioned earlier, the EU is not a voluntary or happy marriage. What drove them together (and forced them to give up literally two millennia of history and culture) was fear of being subsumed by the US. Not by China, or Russia, or India, specifically by the US and its profit at any cost business model.
You'll note btw that the EU and the individual countries are slowly dissolving the US bond and turning to Russia, China and India as trading partners instead. This is due to hate (dislike, fear) of the US business model and its culturally coercive effect.

I think that's a little simplistic. Reality is that Europe has been having wars on it's teritory for the better part of the last 2000 years. Remember that neither of the two world wars were fought on the continental US. American civilians didn't have to survive a blitz, didn't have to become refuges or deal with ethnic cleansing. The initial idea of the EU was to make a land war in Europe less likely via closer economic and social ties. Later it had an economic component, basically an attempt to create one market that could offer the economies of scale that US companies take for granted. It is only relatively recently that the EU has become a political project and even then only the French see it as a nescessary counterballence to US raw power.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 1:45 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals."

This is a good bit of mud-slinging. No wonder Americans come across as arrogant and ignorant.

This is not my statement. It's just one of the reasons suggested for anti-American feeling which I came across in a couple of places in my reading. Bop back up the thread to see the others. If I get the time I'll try to find a cite.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 4:31 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The EU has evolved FAR beyond the original organization. The EU itself "was established in 1992 by the Treaty on European Union (The Maastricht Treaty)" and "was the result of separate negotiations on monetary union and on political union."

All of the trade articles I've read over the last few decades - having to do with international petroleum, bulk and fine chemicals and pharmaceuticals - and submitted from the EU - make the case that the EU is there to provide economic muscle vis-a-vis the US. No one has been or now is under the impression that the EU was re-created in its current form just 'cause people thought it would be a hoot. The looming presence of the US is ALWAYS a topic.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, don't you know what pobrecito means? It means poor little thing.

Anyway, mine was a personal jab. Not cool. Here are some interesting articles which show how nations view each other is changeable and subject to what they do. The Iraq war had a MAJOR impact on view of the USA.

In Germany, prior to the 9/11 attacks, 80 percent of the Germans had a favorable opinion of the United States. That fell all the way to 45 percent in May 2003, after the war. It's now at 38 percent.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/jan-june04/survey_3-17.ht
ml

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/314/opinions-of-us.html
http://www.compagnia.torino.it/english/comunicazioni/pdf/GMF%20Trends%
202004.pdf
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165
http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/upimagestft/Indonesia%20Bangladesh%2
0TFT%20Final%20Poll%20Report.pdf
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=247
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=825

You will notice in some of these polls (where nations' views of each other are displayed as a matrix) that many nations have unfavorable ratings of eahc other that match our unfavorable ratings. However the USA rates the lowest overall because of our invasion of Iraq.

What I found from these articles is that there is no historically identifiable "anti Americanism" but that it surges and subsides depending on specific circumstances.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 3:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What I found from these articles is that there is no historically identifiable "anti Americanism" but that it surges and subsides depending on specific circumstances.

I have to disagree. Admittedly, anti-americanism is at full boil right now, due in part to understandable political differences, but there has been an underlying simmer, especially in Europe, since colonial days.

This started with the "Degeneracy Theory", which suggested that the very climate of the New World was not conducive to intellectual thought. Lack of culture and a cock-sure attitude(perhaps a positive attribute for people planning to settle a wilderness) were the next complaints. Then fear of American industry as a challenge to European sensibilities and lifestyles. After WWI America's growing world power was resented. In the 1930's anti-semitism was rolled in with the image of the jewish-American moneyman. The after WWII the Leftists start in with American Imperialism.

And I probably left a few out.

See the articles below for more details.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20030301fareviewessay10345/walter-russel
l-mead/why-do-they-hate-us-two-books-take-aim-at-french-anti-americanism.html

http://www.itssd.org/Issues/TheHistoricalAntecedentstotheCurrentWaveof
Anti-Americanism.pdf

http://www.anzasa.arts.usyd.edu.au/a.j.a.s/Articles/1_04/OConnor.pdf

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/the_longburning.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2002/10/09/france_ed3__0.php

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 5:02 AM

KANEMAN

"Despite the myth in Europe that Americans are a bunch of ill-educated louts, there are many more Americans who have studied European history than Europeans who have studied American history."

Any truth to this? I think it is true.....

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 5:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes, there are anti-American comments that can be traced back a few hundred years, just as anti-French comments in Britain can be traced back to William the Conquerer. Enough nations have said enough nasty things about each other that looking at history is like looking at the Bible- you can find anything if you look hard enough.

But don't forget that France, Spain and the Netherlands helped the American Revolutionaries. In that case their hatred of the British was the driving factor, so if they were "anti" anything they would have been anti-British. Rebel Filipinos and Cubans initially allied with us in the Spanish-American War because they were anti-Spanish. Time prevents me from posting more examples at the moment.

Americans whinging about anti-Americanism seem to be peculiarly self-centered. The articles that you linked all manage to avoid that fact that the USA is doing things today that create anti-American feeling.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 5:58 AM

KANEMAN

"Americans whinging about anti-Americanism seem to be peculiarly self-centered. The articles that you linked all manage to avoid that fact that the USA is doing things today that create anti-American feeling."

I think the articles do make a differentiation between anti-US and anti-Bush. And aren't Americans always doing something that other nations resent...Going to the moon, inventing just about everything that makes modern society possible, becoming a superpower so quickly, kicking ass at the Olympics, and doing things like parading Pelosi around in our media.........or worse even, H. Clinton?

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 6:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"inventing just about everything that makes modern society possible"

Uhh, the scientific revolution happened during the European Renaissance, while the Industrial Revolution was steam-powered in Britain.

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Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I wanted to add a hypothetical. Let's say that Germany did something particularly egregious... allying with Iran to establish Chinese oil concessions in the Middle East, wresting currency control away from the dollar, and selling advanced military technology and intel to China, Russia, and Iran. I'm sure American blood would come to a boil. Now if Germany continued to do that over the next ten years despite USA and worldwide protest, anti-German bias would be quite high. Germany could then certainly point to anti-German statements made during the Revolutionary War and WWI and WWII and claim that the USA has been "anti-German" all along.

I may be wrong but that's how I view the current complaints about "anti-Americanism".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:35 PM

KHYRON

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=6681&&&edition=2&
ttl=20070627083006

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:46 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Germany could then certainly point to anti-German statements made during the Revolutionary War

The Revolutionary War had lots of good Germans. Why Baron von Steuben's training program was vital to transforming Washington's collection of misfitting colonial militias into a real Army able to go toe to toe with the British regulars.

But the Hessians...bad folk they were. Bad.

H

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 6:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey Khyron, thanks for the heads up. Since I'm likely to be realy busy this coming weekend, will you link to the scheduled article when it comes up?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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