Vegetarians Are Stupid! by CrevanReaver

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"eating meat is what gave rise to intelligence"

More like eating fish, shellfish, eggs, bugs ...

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 4:25 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Oooo, this is gonna start somethin'.

Sit's back to watch.

Btw, meat is tastey, did people know that?

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~*Peter* Peter*; power *re-peater*~
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*Petrelli for President. Together we can soar.*
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HEROE'S IS MY CRACK!
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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 4:35 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Nah. I gotta boogie ...

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 4:39 PM

Animal flesh and organs are a good source of Omega-6 fatty acids, which are required by the brain, and very well could have played a part in human evolution.

One of the lectures on Roman history that I heard once said that one of the main reasons why the Roman, Greek and Punic cultures were so successful, and therefore why Western culture was so successful, was because of the Mediterranean diet, which was and is very high in ω-3, ω-6, and ω-9 fatty acids. All of which are crucial to human brain function and two of which are not produced naturally within the body. I don’t know if you can really go that far, but I do believe that one of the principle reasons why Roman culture was so successful was because of the consumption of Olive Oil, and I think most historians agree with that.

The Mediterranean diet is considered by many, maybe even most, nutritionists today as one of the healthiest traditional diets around. And it’s tasty too.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 5:28 PM

SIGMANUNKI

This isn't without problems. One being India. A lot of math, etc has come out of that country.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 9:29 PM

I really don't have the background to comment beyond that human beings are obviously omnivorous by design, and I think it has less to do with intelligence than raw survivability and adaptation.

Being able to eat almost ANYTHING has it's advantages you know.

-F

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:58 AM

KANEMAN

What about those that don't eat their veggies?

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:03 AM

WHODIED

Wait-- does this mean that the missing link is a piece of sausage?

--WhoDied

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This is a shrimp fork. He's going to eat the guy's brains with a shrimp fork?

Well pardon me if our ancient ancestors didn't leave behind any... brain-eating forks.

Get a soup spoon, you moron.

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:28 AM

HKCAVALIER

Yeah, and eating meat increases aggression and is the root cause of wars, rape and child abuse.

What I want to know is why so many folks who eat meat feel the need to malign vegitarians. Is it just revenge against the one or two vegan nazis they've maybe met? Or is there something vaguely shameful inherent in meat consumption? Ah, that's it, eating meat is also the source of alcoholism and religious fundamentalism.

Any of you familiar with the "field" of sociobiology? Back in the late 70's it was fashionable to make all kinds of asinine assertions based on flimsy false analogies and post hoc ergo propter hoc arguments like this. Human rape is healthy because malard ducks do it! That sort of thing.

Truth is, a very small amount of meat in one's diet--infinitesimal by modern American standards--will get you enough of the acids in question. And red meat is by no means the best source, anyway.

So what?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:49 AM

WHODIED

Wait-- mallard ducks rape humans?

Sorry.

I agree. I work at a very large health food store and the battle between the vegans and the carnys can get, er, bloody. I understand that 80% fruits/veggies to 20% meats/dairy is a healthy mix.

--WhoDied

_______________________

All those secrets you've been concealing
Say you're happy now...

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:54 AM

RAZZA

We're all vegetarians! Meat is just processed vegetation afterall.

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"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:38 AM

HKCav, you'd be surprised just how offensive and nasty some of those people can be, and even more so how willing they are to push their beliefs if not outright ram them down someone elses throat on an asparagus spear.

Me, I don't care what someone else eats, long as they grant me the same courtesy, which unfortunately is not often the case.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:54 AM

GORBISHUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
We're all vegetarians! Meat is just processed vegetation afterall.

HAHA! Nice.

Though, I tend to agree with Frem. Eat what you want whether it be plants, animals or space monkeys, just don't shove your food in my face.

_________________________________________
«°-:-°»Also... I can kill you with my brain.«°-:-°»

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 12:29 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
HKCav, you'd be surprised just how offensive and nasty some of those people can be...

Not in the least, I'm a vegan myself so I've known plenty! (Didn't say there was anything wrong with seeking revenge, just looking for clarification.

) Next time you encounter one, just tell 'm the lack of B12 in their diet has made them cranky.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 1:02 PM

Actually, I look em straight in the eye and point out that they too, are made of meat, and I find myself wondering what a little long pig might taste like.

They tend to leave in a hurry after that.

-F

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 1:49 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"omega-3 fatty acids (marine) comprise approximately eight percent of the average human brain"

Humans can add double bonds and elongate fatty acid chains to make 'meat'-type omega-6 fatty acids. But humans cannot add a double bond in the right place to make a 'fish' omega-3 fatty acid, and can only poorly convert short-chain 'plant' omega-3 fatty acids into long-chain ones.

Two omega-3 fatty acids, DHA and EPA found in fish, have been designated as essential dietary fatty acids.

Together these two fatty acids account for 8% of the brain's weight. Human brain development and functioning aren't normal if there's a dietary deficiency.

The best source for these fatty acids are insects and marine animals, and the human requirement is so large that biochemists have concluded humans must have evolved on a marine diet.

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 5:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Humans can add double bonds and elongate fatty acid chains to make 'meat'-type omega-6 fatty acids.

Not according to the U of Maryland Medical Center.

“Omega-6 fatty acids are considered essential fatty acids (EFAs), which means that they are essential to human health but cannot be made in the body.”

Also:
“...a Mediterranean diet is made up of a healthier and more appropriate balance between omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids.”
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-6-000317.htm

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Biochemically, humans can saturate the double bond in the omega-3 position to leave an omega-6 fatty acid, but can't do the reverse - ie unsaturate an omega-6 fatty acid to make an omega-3. So as long as there is plenty of omega-3 there will be no need for omega-6

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:30 PM

According to you. According to the University of Maryland Medical Center, they cannot.

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 10:25 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well darn, I got rid of my textbooks on the subject a couple of years ago. (It was interesting to me so I studied it specifically.) What you'll find is that humans can't desaturate (double-bond) before the omega-9 position. That means humans will never be able to make an omega-3 from an omega-6 or an omega-9. However, you can saturate (single-bond) those positions.

The very general public nutrition information is full of easy-breezey broad-brush statements. For one thing they don't want people to try to go on an all omega-3 diet b/c it hasn't been studied and they don't want liability. (Indeed it wouldn't be possible b/c some omega-6s and omega-9s are found in any natural source).

But that kind of reference isn't a biochemical source.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:16 AM

I consume the ocassional dead tuna, but other than that I have eaten no meat since 1977. As a result, I have been consistantly plagued with un-natural flexability, a constant weight of 155lbs, and a somewhat lower than normal blood pressure.
I'd better get with the red-meat program...

Chrisisall, sporting needless incisors

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:25 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Meat goooood, Veggies baaad.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 4:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
That is not my opinion, that is prevailing scientific theory.

yada yada yada ya right like person could survive 55 years on just meat and water only sonisall

That' my boy Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 5:07 AM

CRUITHNE3753

The Neanderthals had a diet that consisted mostly of meat. Not many of them around these days. Maybe they all died of bowel cancer and heart disease.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 6:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I know that was a joke. But actually it's a mystery. There are some who say modern humans killed Neanderthal humans off. Others say the Neanderthal humans were too well adapted to the ice age. Some say what kept modern humans going as compared to Neanderthal humans was dietary adaptability. Others say modern human specialization (between the sexes) allowed humans to outbreed Neanderthal humans.

Neanderthal humans did have burials and rites and big brains so they weren't stupid.
Given that they must have had some form of communication.

Some other strange facts: even in the short time since the 'ancient' Greeks modern human genetics has show some drift. For example, studies show that modern Olympic athletes could barely (if at all) keep up with Greek rowers who rowed the warships. Genetically many modern Africans and Polish people can operate at 80% max O2 uptake for hours ... but no one else. So perhaps (my question) the Greeks could row that way b/c they had that genetic characteristic, which was lost to most of humanity in the last few thousand years.

Current humans have smaller brains than fossil modern humans, and smaller teeth as well.

Others have noted that domesticated animals are different from their wild ancestors (generally weaker, more susceptible to disease, and not as smart), and that humans have self-domesticated.

Anyway, just some things I find interesting.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 6:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The most common worldwide trace deficienies are vitamins A & D, and iodine. You will find these deficiencies in ANY inland area where salt is not iodized and food is not supplemented. Lack of iodine in the maternal and subsequent diet causes thyroid hormones to mis-fire, which causes brain damage in the developing child resulting in "cretinism".

Quote:
Endemic cretinism arises from a diet deficient in iodine and has affected far more people worldwide and continues to be a major public health problem in many countries. Iodine is an essential trace element, necessary primarily for the synthesis of thyroid hormones. Although it is found in many foods it is not universally present in all soils in adequate amounts. The soils of many inland areas on all continents are iodine deficient, and plants and animals grown there are correspondingly deficient*. Populations living in those areas without outside food sources are most at risk for iodine deficiency diseases.

*That is, deficient for human consumption. Most other animals get along fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism

Interestingly, one of the unintended consequences of reducing salt is the re-emergence of iodine defiency in areas where it has not recently been a problem. Salt used in food processing is not required to be iodized, so when people cut out their "table salt" they're cutting out perhaps their ONLY source of iodine.
www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/Issues%20Paper%20-%20Mandatory%20Fo
rtification%20with%20Iodine.doc

Our biochemical requirements very clearly point to a marine/ estuarine evolutionary history. I speculate that we evolved on frogs, little fish, bird eggs and shellfish on a seashore, where we conveniently learned how to use stones to crack shells. We eventually transfered those skills to scavenging bones and cracking them for marrow, which allowed us to transition from the litoral environment of the Afar Triangle http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/East_Africa.html and the Great Rift Valley (which was a lake at the time) to an inland life.

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Always look upstream.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 2:19 PM

Quote:
humans have self-domesticated.

THIS is civilization ?!! Thank Crom I am a barbarian!
-Conan, on first sight of Shadizar.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I consume the ocassional dead tuna, but other than that I have eaten no meat since 1977. As a result, I have been consistantly plagued with un-natural flexability, a constant weight of 155lbs, and a somewhat lower than normal blood pressure.
I'd better get with the red-meat program...

I’m pretty sure that’s got less to do with your lack of consumption of meat then you think. Most people are not fat because they eat meat, but rather because they eat too much sugar and simple carbohydrates, or in general, just eat too much. In fact, meat rich diets have helped people lose weight. Flexibility seems more likely a product of activity, not diet. High blood pressure could be caused by diet including unsaturated fats from meat or any number of other things. In short, inflexible, fat, hypertensive people can be vegetarians as likely as not.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 7:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Most people are not fat because they eat meat, but rather because they eat too much sugar and simple carbohydrates,

Well, colour me Simple Carb-man! I literally live on pizza (extra cheese, of course) and peanut M&M's.

Quote:
Flexibility seems more likely a product of activity, not diet.

I'd give 60/40 on that point; growth hormone-saturated meats can clog up your joints and reduce possible flexability- but then, so can an excess of margerine, probably...

Leafy-green-challenged Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 8:28 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"In short, inflexible, fat, hypertensive people can be vegetarians as likely as not." Though of all the vegetarians I've known (a dozen or so), none were any of those. If they followed US norms slightly over 6 of them would have been overweight, and 3 of those obese. Make of that what you will.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"In short, inflexible, fat, hypertensive people can be vegetarians as likely as not." Though of all the vegetarians I've known (a dozen or so), none were any of those. If they followed US norms slightly over 6 of them would have been overweight, and 3 of those obese. Make of that what you will.

Yeah, well there's this veggie down the block from me and he's always crammin' carrots and romaine lettuce into his maw, and he's bigger'n a house- he told me he spends $500 a week on tofu alone, and his cholesterol is through the ceiling!!!

not really

Kidding Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, colour me Simple Carb-man! I literally live on pizza (extra cheese, of course) and peanut M&M's.

I think you’re fibbing about something. I don’t know what, but I do know that you are not healthy if you live on cheese pizza and M&Ms, unless you’re a pod-person, or something. My guess is that you’re one of these eastern cuisine types who eat lots of rice and vegetables.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"In short, inflexible, fat, hypertensive people can be vegetarians as likely as not." Though of all the vegetarians I've known (a dozen or so), none were any of those. If they followed US norms slightly over 6 of them would have been overweight, and 3 of those obese. Make of that what you will.

Most vegetarians are healthier then the average, because they eat a healthy selection of fruits and vegetables with smaller selections of fish and eggs, not because they don’t eat meat. They could include moderate meat portions in their diet and be just as healthy. The typical vegetarian propaganda is that not eating meat makes Heresy’s Bars healthy, but a “vegetarian” who eats nothing but candy will not be healthy.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 12:04 PM

Uhmm? Yeah.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think you’re fibbing about something. I don’t know what, but I do know that you are not healthy if you live on cheese pizza and M&Ms, unless you’re a pod-person, or something. My guess is that you’re one of these eastern cuisine types who eat lots of rice and vegetables.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
LOTS OF RICE AND VEGETABLES!!!HOHOHOHO
Ah Finn, tell that to my wife who makes fun of me for my diet!!!!

Pod-person Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Uhmm?

Okay, to be serious, I drink lots of water, take STUPID vitamins, stretch ALL the time (no catchin' ME in a dark alley unable to kick someone's throat), and do isometrics at work where I can't lift weights (get some funny looks from peeps, but they're usually the fat ones

). My diet is mainly pizza and pasta, eggs and tuna fish, and one small bag of peanut M&M's daily. And lettuce. And the ocassional apple or carrot.
I plead guilty to being fiber-challenged.
All but two of my friends who made fun of me in our teens for not eating meat could make it over a chain link barbwire fence like I can today (admittedly though, they do eat of the cow).

Last laugh Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My diet is mainly pizza and pasta, eggs and tuna fish, and one small bag of peanut M&M's daily. And lettuce. And the ocassional apple or carrot.

Hmmm, that’s so not kungfu.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 2:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Hmmm, that’s so not kungfu.

I go to China for my philosophy and fighting techniques, but I look to Italy for my sustainance.

Olive oil drenching Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 2:30 PM

Yep, Italy has China on food.

I only do Tai Chi, no fighting. But lately I’ve given it up for my new love: the Tango and the Cha Cha. They’re from Spain.

But I did learn Tai Chi from an real Chinese Kungfu Master. Believe or not. If that's any consolation.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

But I did learn Tai Chi from an real Chinese Kungfu Master. Believe or not. If that's any consolation.

You mentioned that when I first joined here, a 'who here does martial arts' thread I started, I believe.
Very cool.

When it gets cold, do Tai Chi on ice, that's fun.

Kung Fu On Ice, starring Dorothy Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2007 3:18 PM

I live in Alabama. The only ice we’ve got is in my freezer. Where I grew up in Detroit we had plenty of ice. But I was more likely to play hockey on it then Tai Chi, back in those days. That was a whole other world.

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Monday, June 18, 2007 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I grew up in Detroit

Where they built Robocop!

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Monday, June 18, 2007 3:35 PM