Vermont may secede from the United States! by CrevanReaver

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Vermont may secede from the United States!

POSTED BY: CREVANREAVER
UPDATED: Monday, November 28, 2022 08:01
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Sunday, June 3, 2007 2:01 PM

In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

MONTPELIER, Vt. --At Riverwalk Records, the all-vinyl record store just down the street from the state Capitol, the black "US Out of Vt.!" T-shirts are among the hottest sellers.

But to some people in Vermont, the idea is bigger than a $20 novelty. They want Vermont to secede from the United States -- peacefully, of course.

Disillusioned by what they call an empire about to fall, a small cadre of writers and academics is plotting political strategy and planting the seeds of separatism.

They've published a "Green Mountain Manifesto" subtitled "Why and How Tiny Vermont Might Help Save America From Itself by Seceding from the Union." They hope to put the question before citizens at Town Meeting Day next March, eventually persuading the state Legislature to declare independence, returning Vermont to the status it held from 1777 to 1791.

Whether it's likely is another question.

But the idea has found plenty of sympathetic ears in Vermont, a left-leaning state that said yes to civil unions, no to slavery (before any other) and last year elected a socialist to the U.S. Senate.

About 300 people turned out for a 2005 secession convention in the Statehouse, and plans for a second one are in the works. A poll this year by the University of Vermont's Center for Rural Studies found that 13 percent of those surveyed support secession, up from 8 percent a year before.

"The argument for secession is that the U.S. has become an empire that is essentially ungovernable -- it's too big, it's too corrupt and it no longer serves the needs of its citizens," said Rob Williams, editor of Vermont Commons, a quarterly newspaper dedicated to secession.

"Congress and the executive branch are being run by the multinationals. We have electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war. If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."

Such movements have a long history. Key West, Fla., staged a mock secession from America in the 1980s. The Town of Killington, Vt., tried to break away and join New Hampshire in 2004, and Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Texas all have some form of secession organizations today.

The Vermont movement, which is being pushed by several different groups, has been bubbling up for years but has gained new traction in the wake of disenchantment over the Iraq war, rising oil prices and the formation of the pro-secession groups.

Among its architects:

--Thomas Naylor, 70, a retired Duke University economics professor and author who wrote the manifesto and founded Second Vermont Republic, a group pressing for secession, in 2003.

--author Kirkpatrick Sale, 69, founder of the Middlebury Institute, a Cold Spring, N.Y., think tank that hosted a North American Separatist Convention that drew representatives from 16 organizations last fall in Burlington. The group is co-sponsoring another one Oct. 3-4 in Chattanooga, Tenn.

--author Frank Bryan, 65, a professor at the University of Vermont who has championed the cause for years.

Naylor's 112-page manifesto contains precious little explanation of how Vermont would do without federal aid and programs when it comes to security, education and social programs. Some in the movement foresee a Vermont with its own currency and passports, for example, and some form of representative government formed once the secession has taken place.

The cachet of secession would make the new republic a magnet, Bryan said recently during a strategy session with organizers in Naylor's home.

"People would obviously relish coming to the Republic of Vermont, the Switzerland of North America," he said. "Christ, you couldn't keep them away."

But there are plenty of skeptics.

"It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea," said Paul Gillies, a lawyer and Vermont historian.

While neither the Vermont Constitution nor the U.S. Constitution forbids secession per se, few think it's viable.

"I always thought the Civil War settled that," said Russell Wheeler, a constitutional law expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C.

"If Vermont had a powerful enough army and said, `We're leaving the union,' and the national government said, `No, you're not,' and they fought a war over it and Vermont won, then you could say Vermont proved the point. But that's not going to happen," he said.

For now, the would-be secessionists are hoping to draw enough support to get the question on Town Meeting Day agendas.

"We're normal human beings," said Williams, 39, a history professor at Champlain College. "But we're serious about this. We want people in Vermont to think about the options going forward. Do you want to stay in an empire that's in deep trouble?"

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermon
t_nascent_secession_movement_gains_traction?mode=PF

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermon
t_nascent_secession_movement_gains_traction/?page=2

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 2:11 PM

SERGEANTX

"It's morning in America..."

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:06 PM

REAVERMAN

Huh... Interesting idea. I don't know how viable it is, but interesting, nonetheless.

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"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!

Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"

- from "A Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:09 PM

CAUSAL

I feel like this should surprise me...but it's Vermont--how could I be surprised?

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Monday, June 4, 2007 3:03 AM

HERO

I have this theory about the Constitutionality of Succession. Its never been decided. Goes like this.

The Constitution does not specifically forbid succession, but it can be implied, especially when reading the 10th Amendment. Now who can succeed? States incorporated from US territories can succeed but in doing so they would revert to territorial status and thus there is simply no point. After all the US does not relinquish its ownership of Montana territory by simply admiting Montana as a State, it merely allows for a political reorganization and Montana's soveriegnty comes and goes with statehood. Now there are several states where such a rule would not apply. They are the 13 original colonies and Texas. These fourteen states had pre-existing soveriegnty. This would mean that they owe there creation not to the Constitution and thus are not bound by its authority except by choice.

Some of you may wonder about Hawaii. I'd need to review the details of the original annexation to give you an answer.

While thats a good theory, it will not fly. The American Civil War and its aftermath created an extra-judicial legal precedent that is dispositive of the issue. A state cannot succeed. However, I hope Vermont tries. A little civil war (fought by Vermonts draft-dodgers and pacifists) and re-construction might be just what we need to root out the traitors and commies hiding out behind all the maple trees.

H

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Monday, June 4, 2007 4:59 AM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
A little civil war (fought by Vermonts draft-dodgers and pacifists) and re-construction might be just what we need to root out the traitors and commies hiding out behind all the maple trees.
H

What about all the commies and traitors hiding out behind all the pine trees? And the ones behind the Douglas Firs? Oooh, what about the ones hiding IN the trees, rather than behind them?

And even if we get all the one in and around the vicinity of various trees, what about the ones hiding under your bed?

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:05 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
A state cannot succeed. However, I hope Vermont tries. A little civil war (fought by Vermonts draft-dodgers and pacifists) and re-construction might be just what we need to root out the traitors and commies hiding out behind all the maple trees.

I don't think we have enough national guard troops here at home right now to squash this "insignifigant rebellion"

It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:08 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Yah, because once you're part of the US, you're part of the US 4 life.

Sound kinda more like a gang rather than a civilized nation to me.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:12 AM

SERGEANTX

I don't think the point is to actually secede. Ultimately this is just the strongest way to send a clear message to the neo-cons. "If you insist on running the US as an empire, we're not interested in playing along".

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:14 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Maybe Vermont can link up with Quebec and the two can form their own little empire amid the staggering chaos that is North America.

Do you think they would still expect money from their former Countries, kind of like alimony?

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Monday, June 4, 2007 7:45 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverman:
What about all the commies and traitors hiding out behind all the pine trees? And the ones behind the Douglas Firs? Oooh, what about the ones hiding IN the trees, rather than behind them?

Its the Maple trees that matter. Just another "War for Syrup".

H

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Monday, June 4, 2007 2:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

They ain't quite ready yet, but it's been coming along for a while now.

VT has spent a great deal of effort and foresight, or at least some people there have, on backup infrastructure, but I really don't think they're quite set up for self-sufficiency yet.

MI would be a better choice for defensibility and self-sufficiency, but that's pretty unlikely.

Cause, you know, you just can't have states succeeding, folks might get the idea, yanno, that the union exists *shocked gasp* at the CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED, instead of Federal force.

Lincoln didn't free the slaves, he made us all slaves, bitches of the FedGov, and if you think they'd just open their hand and let go ?
No way in hell - but if a state WERE to do it, now would be a good time, when we have no troops and no military force worth a damn we haven't thoroughly exhausted and redlined from pysch casualties.

-Frem

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 6:39 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

Though there is an Extra-Judicial precedent for secession, there is a stronger one layed down in writing that forms the basis of the United States of America. It is the Decleration of Independence, which reads thusly -

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Paragraph 1, The Decleration of Independence of the United States of America

Because this entire Nation was founded upon the principle that it may be sometimes necessary to break away from one's government and forge a new path, it would be hypocritical of the Congress or others to say that the proposed secession would be wrong. Granted, with the Civil War having happened since, one might argue that the precedent is against Vermont, but said Extra-Judicial precedent has other vectors that would differentiate these two situations. Also, just because the Civil War de facto states that secession would be wrong, the Decleration of Independence is essentially de jure as it is in writing and is held as a document of nearly equal status to the Constitution itself - and it is, as previously stated, the foundation of the nation and therefore somewhat stronger an argument than a civil war, considering the Revolutionary War, between two sovereign nations, was fought at its behest.

Opposition to this proposed secession on the grounds of morality and patriotism are folly in my opinion, and they beg the question of "When did dissent and willingness to stand by one's principles become un-American, un-Patriotic, and nigh Treasonous?"

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 9:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
"When did dissent and willingness to stand by one's principles become un-American, un-Patriotic, and nigh Treasonous?"

March 4, 1861

-F

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:26 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
the Decleration of Independence is essentially de jure as it is in writing and is held as a document of nearly equal status to the Constitution itself

Actually the document is historical, not legal. What legal status it has was confined to the very narrow confines of severing this country's ties with Great Britain, and was rendered moot by the Treaty of Paris, 1783, in which Great Britain legally recognized the individual sovereignty of the original 13 States.

Under the United States Constitution it has no legal status. No one can cite the Declaration for legal authority. When used it is for its moral authority, which is often ambiguous.

There is simply no mechanism for leaving the union. Should a state attempt it, it is rebellion, pure and simple and we have precedent for dealing with that, not just from the Civil War, but from a hundred other examples including the Whiskey Rebellion and Waco.

Further the 14th Amendment makes all persons in Vermont citizens of the United States as well as Vermont. That means that Vermont can't "make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States", this would seem to make it impossible for States to politically or legally sever their ties with the United States. The only exception would be a successful military rebellion and I don't think Vermont is up to the task.

H

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:48 AM

KANEMAN

Show me one state in the union that isn't so dependent on the welfare-state and Fed cash that they could secede...They would have my blessing, but I doubt one exists.........

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 5:14 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Show me one state in the union that isn't so dependent on the welfare-state and Fed cash that they could secede...They would have my blessing, but I doubt one exists........

California has a huge welfare-state vibe going on for sure and that sucks but I've heard the California economy by itself is the world's 5th largest economy. If all the taxes Californians pay to the Feds were to be used for our own infrastructure including defense, with the billions possibly trillion(s) of dollars involved maybe we could pull it off. I know, I know...it'll never happen anyway, just dreaming out loud

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 5:27 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Show me one state in the union that isn't so dependent on the welfare-state and Fed cash that they could secede...They would have my blessing, but I doubt one exists........

California has a huge welfare-state vibe going on for sure and that sucks but I've heard the California economy by itself is the world's 5th largest economy. If all the taxes Californians pay to the Feds were to be used for our own infrastructure including defense, with the billions possibly trillion(s) of dollars involved maybe we could pull it off. I know, I know...it'll never happen anyway, just dreaming out loud

Take away the entertainment industry..You got nothing but lettuce, my friend.......Oh, and Porn counts....

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 5:53 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

Actually, California is an R&D hotbed, with the Skunk Works, Scaled Composites, and Sun Microsystems, just to name a few. Also, with Sun and there neighbors in Silicon Valley, they are a computing hotspot. Both of those are Multi-Billion, possibly Multi-Trillion Dollar markets, which would do well in supporting a separate California.

As to the legal/moral status of the Declaration of Independence, one could argue that because it is the document upon which our country was founded, it has legal status, within the confines of the constitution, the later legal document, which does not expressly state that one cannot secede. Granted, there is no guarantee as to the effectiveness of this argument, but I'm sure that some judges would go for it.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:06 AM

KANEMAN

"Actually, California is an R&D hotbed, with the Skunk Works, Scaled Composites, and Sun Microsystems, just to name a few. Also, with Sun and there neighbors in Silicon Valley, they are a computing hotspot. Both of those are Multi-Billion, possibly Multi-Trillion Dollar markets, which would do well in supporting a separate California."

That is true... and they employ how many people? My original post was that no state in the union can secede...They all rely on the fed welfare state...Well, it's true........After the fed takes away the corporate welfare, and the wages are cut. Who pays for the Millions and Millions of California residents on some kinda welfare? The workers at skunk works making 80 grand? Who? Look into how much the feds pay the states...No state can afford to secede...After all the only reason the feds can afford our welfare state is to print money that does not exist....Well, that is also true........

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:15 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Take away the entertainment industry..You got nothing but lettuce, my friend.......Oh, and Porn counts....

Don't forget Ahhhnold, Gays, and earthquakes! We're not just lettuce and porn you know. I get it Kane, you're jealous. Where are you from anyway Kane? CrankyRepublicanville USA?

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 6:55 AM

KANEMAN

Oops, forgot about gays. But really how many people can a bath house attendant feed? From crankyoldstuffyashellliberalbeyondbeliefconnecticut....Or you can just say Hartford...Well, at least I have good insurance........

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:34 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I’m going to succeed from the Union. I declare my acre of land, the independent sovereign state of the Democratic Republic of Finnland.

In the interest of international relations, let me tell you a little about the great state of Finnland:

We’re an industrious and well-dressed people; mostly white and female, with a strong science and research program and Separation of Church and State. In fact, the Church is located several blocks outside of the state. Politics is mostly conservative, although there is a mild feminist current that resents the male leadership, but their big-blue-eye-and-pouty-lip veto is plenty strong enough to provide the female population of Finnland with considerable political influence.

We have no drug problems. Criminal activity is light and punishable by up to several weeks grounding, but most sentences fall on the leniency of the court and end up with just a good talking to.

We have a strong defense program, which includes a two 16 gauge shotguns and a glock. We are typically a peaceful people but border skirmishes do exist from time to time, especially when neighboring states refuse to control their animal populations that frequently pollute our pristine landscape. But these skirmishes have never become violent. We have a very strict policy against illegal immigrants, but in practice illegals seem to come and go at their pleasure all over the front lawn, particularly about the time school lets out.

Our nation is bounded by natural beauty. We recycle most of our trash, but do export a little of it, at a cost of $14.50 per month. Frequent storms and high winds do make it difficult to advance into the satellite age; however digital cable seems to suffice for the time being.

Our diet consists principally of Italian, Irish and Southern American cuisines, though most of our produce is imported. Fastfood is forbidden by state law. And while we are a bilingual people, English is the official language. We enjoy a very eclectic and wholesome art interests with musical selection dominated by various Ashlees and Justins, and of course Firefly has been nominated as our national TV show, even if I did have to use my veto on Hannah Montana.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:54 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

Is the Traditional Fish Schlapping Dance your official state song//dance combo? Is Swedish outlawed? Are Moose the national animal? Do you hike, camp, enjoy sauna, or just watch TV for recreation? If so, this sounds like a good little country.

((I think that's the bulk of the Spamalot song on Finland, if memory serves.))

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 10:52 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m going to succeed from the Union. We are typically a peaceful people but border skirmishes do exist from time to time, especially when neighboring states refuse to control their animal populations that frequently pollute our pristine landscape. But these skirmishes have never become violent. We have a very strict policy against illegal immigrants, but in practice illegals seem to come and go at their pleasure all over the front lawn, particularly about the time school lets out.

Sounds like a nice country Finn. Also on your border incursion problem, I will suggest you bring in a few bears to live on your spread for a few weeks. In fact!...maybe Bears would work on our country's border, the one which you are no longer a part of Hmmmmm. I bet you won't miss paying taxes huh!

It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites

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Monday, November 28, 2022 8:01 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

'Greater Idaho' Moves Closer To Bi-State Referendum As Two More Oregon Counties Vote To Leave

https://www.theepochtimes.com/greater-idaho-moves-closer-to-bi-state-r
eferendum-as-two-more-oregon-counties-vote-to-leave_4870383.html

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