Immigration nation by kaneman

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You have a very basic contradiction within your own reasoning. On the one hand, you say that we need immigrant labor because otherwise cheap foreign labor will out-compete us. On the other hand, you say that no Americans will lose any jobs because of cheap immigrant labor. You can't have it both ways. Either cheap labor is a threat or it is not.

Ok, this is the only one I’m going to answer. The others are either strawman arguments or you really are unable to understand a simple point. This is done in my afternoon break ---so it won’t be pretty.

Basic definition, --there is a difference between wealth and profit. Wealth is in effect the gross difference between the value of raw materials and the value of finished goods. Profit is the difference between manufacturing costs and sale price.

That means that where a product is made has consequences.

Imagine I make widgets in the US. A widget is a small, manufactured item of high value and relatively small mass. Each widget retails for $10 of which $2 are plant and materials, $4 labour and $4 profit. The job is labour intensive so I employ 5000 Americans to make widgets for me in a plant in Bugspit, Idaho.

For each widget made my workers create $8 worth of wealth transforming raw materials into manufactured products. In doing so we generate $8 of industrial activity $4 I keep as profit and $4 of which goes to the workforce. Some portion of that money goes directly into the local economy, my workers buy goods, see movies, eat out etc and some of the money made from widgets ends up as taxes that pay for schools and roads and other good things in Bugspit.

So far so good but I’m a greedy B*d and it comes to my attention that if I could make widgets in Wi-Me China the labour costs are half. So in Wi-Me my fixed costs are still $2, but my workers cost only $2 a widget, which means that I make a whole $6 in profit all of which I repatriate to the US of A.

My profits just went up 50%, the stockmarket loves the news because to the investor better return for investment is always good news. Here’s the problem though. When I made goods in Idaho the wealth created was $8 all of which stayed in the US and funded other businesses and local taxes in Idaho. Now making widgets still produces $8 of new wealth but $2 of that stays in China and very little of the $6 coming back goes to Bugspit Idaho. Instead of Idaho having tax revenues from widget makers they actually have unemployed folks both from layoffs from the widget factory and from the numerous local businesses widget makers used to frequent.

Meanwhile in Wi-Me folks actually start to have buying power to purchase goods and this in turn results in secondary business that sell to widget makers. Now an internationalist will tell you that eventually Wi_Me’s widget makers will buy US made goods and send some of the $2/widget back to the US. However while that is true it doesn’t happen in even a medium timeframe.

So in short, when an illegal works in the US the value of his labour and the wealth he produces becomes part of the US economy and generates secondary economic activity. These people need to buy food, buy clothes ride the bus or buy fuel depending on your viewpoint. All of which puts a portion of that wealth back into the US economy. A worker in China creates wealth in China that is part of the Chinese economy and generates secondary economic effects there.

So you see there is no contradiction. If the choice is between creating wealth in the US and creating it abroad and just repatriating profit, there is a bigger economic lever effect in creating wealth here.

In your world the choice is between hiring an illegal at $3/hr and paying an American $8/hr. That's actually a false choice. In truth the industry could not pay $8/hr and remain competative with imports at $3/hr. If the immigrants went the work would go abroad. In work that produces movable product the $8/hr American worker loses nothing to the $3/hr illegal because he would never be offered that job anyway, it would go abroad to a producer with a lower cost base. There are industries like construction and some services, work that has to be done at a fixed local or where the product isnt movable where you could easily replace illegals with better paid Americans but profits are unlikely to fall instead the costs would be passed to the end customer.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:29 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Illegal aliens murder dozens of US citizens every day in USA. I agree 100% with Alex Jones today. Send all soldiers to the borders and massacre all illegal aliens with helicopter gunships. THAT'S what the military is for, not slaughtering 2.5-million innocent folks in Iraq who never invaded USA. Then arrest all employers, landlords and banksters of illegal aliens, and seize their assets.

Mexico invaded USA in both World War 1 and World War 2 to support the Germans, in the Plan of San Diego. THIS IS WAR!!!
www.vdare.com/Sailer/060129_sandiego.htm
www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/deisyseis_partone.htm

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE BY MIND CONTROL: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

Heh, Heh, Heh.
Soon our Mexican allies will be in control of your helpless land. Already they are peeing in your swimming pools and infesting your burgers with their bodily fluids.
You are doomed Gringo.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:37 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And somehow you missed ALL the undeserved snipes Fletch2 was making all along - like these:

Would be nice if you would stay on topic.
I think my understanding of economics is actually ahead of yours
I find opening my mouth to speak is better than mumbling through clenched teeth, which I suspect you do a lot.
So your "observation" proves nothing, unless you stopped and asked her which of course you didn't because that would mean you'd have to treat her as a person and not a political football.

Now how did that happen?

Remember how important context is Rue. 'Would be nice if you stay on topic' came first. It was Fletch's opinion that Signy was veering off topic, it's been known to happen. The rest of your pulled quotes came after Signy's snipes which proves Fletch has human emotions. BTW, it wasn't Fletch lamenting 'what did I do to deserve this', it was Signy. Loyalty, while admirable, does not make right.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And somehow you missed ALL the undeserved snipes Fletch2 was making all along - like these:

Would be nice if you would stay on topic.

Well it would be nice, he changes focus when his ideas are refuted.

Quote:

I think my understanding of economics is actually ahead of yours

Which is in answer to---

Quote:

There are so many excpetions to this statement - both specific and theoretical- that I think you should go back and REALLY study economics, and not the gobbledy-gook that someone filled your head with.

Quote:

I find opening my mouth to speak is better than mumbling through clenched teeth, which I suspect you do a lot.

In answer to --

Quote:

Except illegal aliens, who ride the bus. You're sort of arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

Quote:

So your "observation" proves nothing, unless you stopped and asked her which of course you didn't because that would mean you'd have to treat her as a person and not a political football.

Which I charge is fair comment. He saw this woman loaded down and waiting for a bus and came to the conclusions

1) She's illegal
2) She's riding the bus because she is poor
3) the family is too poor to own a vehicle
4) all illegals are too poor to own a vehicle

However he never once actually stopped and confirmed any of that. He didnt need to because it fitted with his pre-existing prejustices.

He then uses his interpretation of what he saw to refute my position based on fact.

Sorry Rue if you will be blind to the remarks of your friends dont expect anyone to see you as an unbiased observer.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

This should cover you both.

FLETCH2
Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:09
Would be nice if you would stay on topic. (attack)

SIGNYM
Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:59
the distribution of wealth and the effect that illegal- and therefore cheap- -labor has on American wages is a BIG part of anti (illegal) immigrant passion (answer)
you should go back and REALLY study economics, and not the gobbledy-gook that someone filled your head with (return)

FLETCH2
Monday, June 18, 2007 - 13:42
I think my understanding of economics is actually ahead of yours at least I realise that it is possible to price yourself out of a job (new attack)
I find openning my mouth to speak is better than mumbling through clenched teeth, which I suspect you do a lot. (and another one !)

SIGNYM
Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 09:37
So just out of curiosity, how much economics did you study? (neutral approach)

FLETCH2
Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 20:51
The problem both you and Rue have is that you never let reality get in the way of your preconceptions. (yet another undeserved personal attack)

And so on ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:02 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Context Rue. What about all the other posts between the two? You can't just go through the posts and pick out the stuff you want and pronunce "HA! I'm right and you're all wrong".

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:11 PM

Oops! sorry Fletch2. In my head I thought you had already won this argument...I forgot how relentless ruse can be.........and irrational.......Well, it's true.........

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Context Rue. What about all the other posts between the two? You can't just go through the posts and pick out the stuff you want and pronunce "HA! I'm right and you're all wrong".

Why not? Nothing has stopped her before.........Well, it's true.........

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You're right Fletch, it's not pretty. And instead of just saying "I won't answer you because you're too stupid" humor me. Show me HOW I'm stupid. Be detailed. Explain it to me like I'm the idiot that you think I am, step by step. I don't bite.

I have a different definition of "wealth" which you have not asked about.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BDN- I didn't attack Fletch2, at least not the the extent that he attacked me. If you feel otherwise, show me where and how. BTW- Fletch2 has contradiicted himself sevral times in this thread. I pointed out specifically where and how and that was what I meant by "talking out of both sides of his mouth". I have not heard any refutation. Fletch2 refuses to address those points.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:42 PM

Actually you ceased to interest me a while ago when I realised that the general pattern of your interactions on these boards is a passive-agressive cry for attention.

From this thread we have the "look at me" behavior.

Quote:

Fletch, apparently you did not see my previous post. so here it is....

Quote:

I'm trying to have a decent conversation here. My point about expensive transport was humor. But you will not respond to the more theoretical portion of my post. Why is that?

ie

"I will not be IGNORED."

and my favourite, the martyr

Quote:

WOW. I looked back on my posts and i KNOW I didn't deserve anything like this!

From the evolution thread

Quote:

Helloooo? Anti, are you home?

and from the everything is just Dandy thread.

Quote:

I assume Geezer is too busy to reply to my post.

So we have a modus operendi. You basically take a position in the thread, you deliberately act dumb and expect everyone to pay you attention by refuting your posts. If they are dumb enough to try to do that they get more of your rubbish. Wash and repeat when nescessary. If they try and ignore you and cut you out of the discussion you pout and whine about it. You play the victim if anyone calls you on it and I suspect you decide you won when the thread eventually closes down.

Game over sport. You have everything I'm going to say to you in this topic in the posts I've made. I have no further interest in your opinions, definitions or political viewpoint. I have answered you repeatedly with examples in areas where I conceed there could be confusion. Your pattern of behavior suggests you want the attention far more than you want a discussion. I don't have time for you.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Game over sport."

YES ! It's an evil twisted plot to - CONVERSE ! And - EXCHANGE IDEAS ! Is there no end to the perversity ? Is there no shame ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Fletch2, I like to ask questions which I hope will either clarify someone else's opinion, or lead them to realize that there is a logical flaw in their approach. Usually the other person ducks out when I ask a question they they refuse to answer, such as

Quote:
If all of the species' archetypes were present to begin with and there was a massive flood, what you would expect to find is a large layer, rather uniform, with fossils of all types jumbled together. And yet clearly, there are a lot of "archetypes" missing from the earlier sediment layers followed by other layers which contain other kinds of fossils. You would have to somehow account for the fact that many archetypes are separated from each other by sediment layers that would have taken hundreds of thousands to millions of years to lay down.

The reason why Anti came to a skidding halt on this one is because s/he cannot answer that question without running into the internal contradiction with

Quote:
I don't doubt the basic sciences

... just as you cannot counter my opinion that you'e contradicted yourself several times in this thread without confronting those very contradictions. Strangely, all I ask people to do is explain themselves in detail. And strangely, that's where they duck out. It's a shame, because wrinkles get ironed out when people discuss stuff in detail. That's where God is,... or the devil.

And the funny thing, no one has thought to ask me to explain myself in detail. For example, you have never asked me how I define "value" despite the fact that it is essential to the discussion. Why is that? Are you afraid you might get a detailed explanation?

Perhaps you have never heard of the Socratic Method:

Quote:
In this method, a series of questions are posed to help a person or group to determine their underlying beliefs and the extent of their knowledge. The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those which lead to contradictions. It was designed to force one to examine one's own beliefs and the validity of such beliefs. In fact, Socrates once said, "I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others."

Leave it to the "intellects" of FFF not to even recognize the basis of western philosophy.

--------------------------------
Socrates was passive aggressive.

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:09 PM

They made him take poison ---are you really sure you want to emulate that kind of "success."

You haven't been able to show one contradiction. When you act dumb with me I explain it "captain simple" in response you claim flaws and then dont actually bother to say what they are. Oh and the fact that capitalism isnt socialism isn't a flaw, the fact that capitalism doesn't work the way you think it should is also not a flaw.

So no I thought about it and I was right, you are an attention whore. I strongly suspect that the reason other people stop talking to you is that evntually they figure it out and understand that wasting their time going over the same ground 1000 times is futile.

B Bye

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Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:09 PM

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You haven't been able to show one contradiction.

You missed this:

Quote:
You say that cheap labor isn't a threat, and then you point out the threat of cheap foreign labor. You say that maximal profit isn't the driving force, and then you come up with a prime example. You say that laborers can afford their own products, and then you turn around and immediately point out that they can't.

Anyway, to address your posts in detail:

You keep hammering home the same basic example that Profit= sale price - cost I get it, I get it! That is why manufacturing has shifted from the USA to Japan to Korea to China to Vietnam. But at the same time that you point to cheap labor costs being the driving force for bringing down wages worldwide you turn around and say that it won't matter with illegals in the United States, because something magical happens when they cross the border: and "their" contributions suddenly become "our" wealth, generating "secondary" economic effects. You have failed to note that those "secondary" effects are less than what would have occurred had they not driven down wages in the first place. The goods that they can buy are not going to support the person who was layed off from his decent-paying maufacturing job. While our living standard may decline less quickly with illegals within our borders, it will still decline. Do you have an answer for that?

Prolly not. So while you have fully described a worldwide mechanism for wages to go down there is - in your process - no mechanism for wages to go up. It's a "bend over and enjoy it" premise. But the market, as Adam Smith (You have heard of him?) described it, operates without force or fear. For meaningful negotiations to occur the worker should be just as able to meaningfully w/draw his labor as the owner is to w/draw his employ. But as I said before- a point which you have not addressed- that would require owners and workers to be on a level playing field, and clearly they are not. Therefore, the labor market is broken.

What you are positing is a system that requires stupid consumers. You've said that the owners cannot reliably sell to their own workforce so they look instead towards markets where they can persuade people with more money than sense to let go of $120 for a $5 product. What I have asked you to do is consider a global situation (BIG picture) where people still may not have much sense, but they don't have much money either.

And therefore - by YOUR description- capitalism is on is a one-way road to poverty for everyone except the owners. Aside from being unfair, your particular road leads to economic collapse: declining retail market leads to layoffs leads to declining retail market leads to layoff. This is otherwise known as a depression. (You may have heard of those too.)

I'm not talking about socialism, dude. I'm talking about the flow of capital (money): where it goes, who gets it, what it's used for, where it accumulates, etc. .

You apparently are not used to rigorous intellectual discussion. Anyone worth their salt would immediately look at profit and say: AHA! Profit is distributed through pension funds and their stocks, and banks, to a great many more people other than the owners, and therefore recycles money back into circulation Or, we could have examined how Keynes (Have you heard of him?) tried solve the problem, and whether his solution is a complete solution. (Many say not.)

BTW- You have yet to ask me how I define "value". Are you afraid to find out?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It occurs to me that the problem is that we're discussing something in words that needs math. So, let's look at your proposition:

Profit= sale price - labor cost - material cost

Mathematically rearranging:

Labor cost = Sale price- Profit- Material cost

In other words, wages are always less than the amount it would take to buy the product, whether we're talking about a closed system (bowling ball workers trying to buy a shift's worth of bowling balls with a shift's worth of wages) or the entire world. While it is possible to have one group produce, and another consume, in the end when you total it all up workers cannot buy back what they've produced.

So the key question is: what happens with the Profit? (I could go into detail about material costs but they are, in the end, labor costs.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:37 AM

Fletch - "I strongly suspect that the reason other people stop talking to you is that eventually they figure it out and understand that wasting their time going over the same ground 1000 times is futile."

And he hates America.........And he is a condescending douche bag........And I think he rubs camel balls in the evening.......and he said I was a lost cause once.....And he EATS BUGGERS........And.........

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It occurs to me that the problem is that we're discussing something in words that needs math. So, let's look at your proposition:

Profit= sale price - labor cost - material cost

Mathematically rearranging:

Labor cost = Sale price- Profit- Material cost

In other words, wages are always less than the amount it would take to buy the product, whether we're talking about a closed system (bowling ball workers trying to buy a shift's worth of bowling balls with a shift's worth of wages) or the entire world. While it is possible to have one group produce, and another consume, in the end when you total it all up workers cannot buy back what they've produced.

So the key question is: what happens with the Profit? (I could go into detail about material costs but they are, in the end, labor costs.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Still waiting to see those contradictions here. When you show them we may talk, otherwise we are done.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It occurs to me that the problem is that we're discussing something in words that needs math. So, let's look at your proposition:

Profit= sale price - labor cost - material cost

Mathematically rearranging:

Labor cost = Sale price- Profit- Material cost

In other words, wages are always less than the amount it would take to buy the product, whether we're talking about a closed system (bowling ball workers trying to buy a shift's worth of bowling balls with a shift's worth of wages) or the entire world. While it is possible to have one group produce, and another consume, in the end when you total it all up workers cannot buy back what they've produced.

So the key question is: what happens with the Profit? (I could go into detail about material costs but they are, in the end, labor costs.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Still waiting to see those contradictions here. When you show them we may talk, otherwise we are done.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:23 AM

RAZZA

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...In other words, wages are always less than the amount it would take to buy the product, whether we're talking about a closed system (bowling ball workers trying to buy a shift's worth of bowling balls with a shift's worth of wages) or the entire world. While it is possible to have one group produce, and another consume, in the end when you total it all up workers cannot buy back what they've produced...

Signym:

Not to pile on here with Fletch, but you have a HUGE contradiction here in this statement. Why would a worker at the bowling ball plant want to buy a shift's worth of bowling balls? He wouldn't, obviously, and therefore your point is a little ridiculous. The bowling ball plant worker would only buy one bowling ball, and to make the giant assumptive leap from "he couldn't buy a shifts worth of bowlling balls at the wage he makes in a shifts worth of work" to "he would never be able to buy a bowling ball" is a bit ludicrous. Maybe that wasn't what you were trying to say, but that is how it came across.

Your statement that "workers cannot buy back what they produce" is so obviously flawed that it undercuts any point you are trying to make, though I'm not sure what that point is to tell you the truth. Workers buy the product they produce all the time! So let me get this straight, you believe the Ford Motor Company offers its employees a discount on Ford cars because they know they will never be able to afford them and thus will never have to honor the discount? There are so many flaws in that logic I don't know where to start.

While I agree with some of your earlier statments about immigration, which by the way this thread was originally about, I have to fall on Fletch's side in this whole economics debate you two have derailed the thread to.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:59 AM

RAZZA

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
He's the thing. We live in a world where there is real slavery. Where a girl can be snatched off a farm in Romania and end up in a brothel in Nice. Someone who didn't decide to leave her home did not chose the work she does, gains nothing from it and will be killed or injured if she refuses. By contrast most US illegals came here of their own free will, made the journey under their own power, found their own employment and can leave it at any time. And we find that SigNY resents them for taking American jobs and you do it because they are being used by the man. Unless you are 100% native American your ancestors made the same choices these guys did. They probably had the same hardship getting here and may even have lived 15 to a room while they got a start. And yes that means they were probably exploited by those capitalists along the way. You know what? The illegals today and your ancestors back then shared one thing, they both thought themselves better off in America doing shitty jobs than being back where they came from.

Fletch:

No one blames immigrants for making the obvious choice for a better life in our country. You are right, we are all the result of immigrants who came to america seeking the same opportunities, and no one begrudges them that. I support immigration and think we should be raising our set quotas for the number of immigrants coming here and allowing more to enter legally. There is obviously a need for them or else they wouldn't be coming. I do have a problem, however, with people beginning their search for a better life in the United States by thumbing their nose at our laws. You can't blame them when they know our spineless politicians will eventually cave and give them amnesty anyway. Their decision to come here is a no brainer really, and if I were in their shoes I'd probably be doing the same thing. That doesn't make it right, just prudent. My anger is with useless and hypocritical politicians not people seeking a better life.

In another post you said:

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
In your world the choice is between hiring an illegal at $3/hr and paying an American $8/hr. That's actually a false choice. In truth the industry could not pay $8/hr and remain competative with imports at $3/hr. If the immigrants went the work would go abroad. In work that produces movable product the $8/hr American worker loses nothing to the $3/hr illegal because he would never be offered that job anyway, it would go abroad to a producer with a lower cost base. There are industries like construction and some services, work that has to be done at a fixed local or where the product isnt movable where you could easily replace illegals with better paid Americans but profits are unlikely to fall instead the costs would be passed to the end customer.

These are good points and I think you talked about the benefits of the economic activity of this cheap illegal labor force adding to the local economy as well. This is something I hadn't thought of in the past and bares some consideration. I have to wonder though if that economic benefit outweighs the ancillary costs incurred as a result of the illegal labor being present. We hear anectdotes of hospital emergency rooms closing, schools being overwhelmed with the children of illegals, insurance costs rising, and many others. Couple these costs with the fact that many illegals send a large part of their income back home to their native country and you have to ask, are these local economic boosts resulting from their presence worth it? I don't know the answer to tell you the truth and I think it would be very difficult to quantify either the benefits or the costs. Your thoughts?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Razza- I'm talking economic theory.

Lets' say that in one week, all wages paid in the world totalled $0.9 trillion dollars. That's the money in-hand available for purchasing goods. Lets' say capitalists want to sell those produced goods for a 10% profit, for a total of approximately $1 trillion dollars. WHO is going to buy all those products? Certainly not the people who made them, because they only have $0.9 trillion in-hand.

You're right, it IS a conundrum and that's what leads to nasty boom and bust cycles. It took economists a century to figure out what to do about it while still keeping capitalism alive. The first was to institute mandatory dedistribution through taxes. The second was to "inject" money into the economy by extending credit to wage-earners who would otherwise not be able to purchase the totality of what was poduced.

What precipitates depressions is a large and growing inequality in money distribution. That is why economists are looking at the wealth distribution today, the past seven decades, and immediately before and after the Great Depression.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:01 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Not to try to answer for SignyM, but since I think it was I who came up with the argument: you have to extend the idea to it's ultimate end to see why workers can't buy what they produce.

Let me come at this a different way - it's been many decades since I went to school so I don't know - do they still teach about 'the company store' ? In effect the entire world is the company, and people have to buy from the company store.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:22 AM

RAZZA

Signym:

Okay, I see what you are getting at now, but there are a couple of problems with your hypothesis. It assumes that the only consumer of the goods are the people who produced them and completely discounts the existence of the concept of credit. Corporations also consume goods using the profits they garnered by selling the goods their workers produced. I think your statement is a gross oversimplification of a very complex subject.

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"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Umm... I specifically metioned credit as one solution to the problem. And yes, corporations are themselves "consumers". And I haven't even touched on the action of rent and interest, and what happens with "profit". It is a very complex topic which I deliberately simplified for the sake of discussion. But what it turns out is that no matter how many pathways you follow the money through... whether a corporation is a consumer or whether you are looking at retail goods or services... the equation is still the same each time you turn the production/ consumption crank, and the critical parameters are: What is the rate of profit? What happens to "profit"? What is the rate of the increase of money supply? What is the increase in productivity?

I don't want to get into mathematical modeling, but I imagine it can be modeled akin to an elctronic circuit with positive and negative feedback, because the economy oscillates under circumstances where positive feedback takes over.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:34 AM

siggy,
Your argument does not take into account that the owners and the companies that make the 10% profit also make purchases. It also does not take into consideration the service industry for one(There are many others). Nothing is 'made', however wages are paid. This whole thread shows what a full of shit tool you are.........See, economics isn't JUST manufacturing you fucking nutter.....

Edit.....So I guess, in a retarded way you are... correct, the 500 hundred factory workers couldn't buy all the cars they make, but the gardeners, supermarket worker, police officers, firemen , etc....could.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Quote:
I have to wonder though if that economic benefit outweighs the ancillary costs incurred as a result of the illegal labor being present. We hear anectdotes of hospital emergency rooms closing, schools being overwhelmed with the children of illegals, insurance costs rising, and many others. Couple these costs with the fact that many illegals send a large part of their income back home to their native country and you have to ask, are these local economic boosts resulting from their presence worth it? I don't know the answer to tell you the truth and I think it would be very difficult to quantify either the benefits or the costs. Your thoughts?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

I think that's difficult to quantify in absolute terms. However bear in mind that the wealth created will always be more than the pay someone takes home. Even if the immigrant repatriated his whole check to Mexico muc of the wealth he created would stay in the US.

Depending on the industry there could also be multiplication effects. Let's say that Argentine beef costs $1.5/lb to produce and by the time it reaches US stores it retails at $3.20. US beef costs $2.50/lb to produce and retails for $3.00.

Argentine beef is so cheap because the cost base in that country is much less. Land is less expensive, so is labour and there are lower taxes. With the cost base that exists in the US it would be impossible to match Argentina head to head. I'm sure Sig would be the first to scream if the beef states started paying South American wages. The $3.00/lb US beef price includes the cost of employing cheap immigrant labour. One day the Sig/Rue ticket is elected and evicts all of the imigrants, replacing them with American at a decent wage. This adds an additional 50c/lb to the cost of US beef, which in turn means that fewer people buy it which in turn reduces economies of scale which it turn pushes up prices.

This impacts other folks, ranchers and the people that work for them, guys that sell to ranchers, guys that repair refrigeration equipment, lots of people because the economic benefit of some workers has knock on effects.

On the other hand deporting Juanita who works the late counter at Taco Hell is probably not got going to have a big economic effect.

I'm a legal immigrant. Which means I've waited in line for hours on multiple occasions paid about $1000 in assorted fees collected the mountain of supporting documentation and cant leave the country for more than 6 months without having to do the whole thing over. So yeah from the point of view of fairness I'm not thrilled that other folks can just sneak in. Of course I also make decent pay, I was never in any risk of dying in a desert or drowning to get here.

While I don't like how they got here I am willing to conceed that them being here has benefits to the economy.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Fletch2- I thought I had been very specific about the contradictions within your own posts. And I see that once again you fail to see the big picture. But, as you say, I have a job and a family and I'll be extremely busy for the next couple of days. So when I get the time I will puzzle out how best I can lay it out so simply that even you can follow it.

And yes, that was snarky. I've been pretty much refraining from calling you an idiot, but I don't see the point.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Kaneman, so I guess you get my point in a retarded way. (With apologies to the retarded.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:50 AM

Siggy, there is a village in Texas that needs an idiot...You should go there.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:55 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It's probably Crawford. Don't worry, they'll get him back soon.

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Siggy, there is a village in Texas that needs an idiot...You should go there.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:13 PM

Back to the topic........

The American Indian has learned all to well what happens when you don't control immigration

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:43 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
The American Indian has learned all to well what happens when you don't control immigration

Lol! Nice one, KM.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
It's probably Crawford. Don't worry, they'll get him back soon.
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Siggy, there is a village in Texas that needs an idiot...You should go there.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Hey, we are on the same page for once........fucking, somebody shoot me.........

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
The American Indian has learned all to well what happens when you don't control immigration
Lol! Nice one, KM.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

It gets funnier every time I read it.........

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:49 PM

DRAGONWINE

Reform won't do anything, a new "fence" or more agents won't do anything. I've got no problem with those that follow the rules and enter legally. Illegal means illegal. They ignore our sovereignity. It pretty much is an invasion, too bad most of our troops are out of town. A country that can't hold it's borders seems pretty sad. I don't expect any answers to come from our wonderful elected officials. They just like it the way it is.

It's a nothing part til you don't got one, then you have to go to ebay.....aaaaagh!

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:24 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Get out your pitchforks, tar and feathers:

Quote:

VIDEO: Jewish Lawyers Teach How To NOT Hire An American citizen in USA

www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/6/18/22435/0365

Quote:
"Our goal is clearly NOT to find a qualified U.S. worker. Our objective is to get this person a green card. So certainly we are not going to try to find a place where applicants would be most numerous."
-Lawrence M. Lebowitz, Vice President of Marketing, Cohen & Grigsby

It's on video, believe it or not, and even presented as a selling point to peddle their services by Cohen & Grigsby Law Firm. That's right, this group of attorneys put an entire seminar on how to screw over the American worker on YouTube. Imagine that, a seminar from lawyers on how to make sure one doesn't have to hire an American worker! In the video attorneys explain how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and how they disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers.

Note that Comedy Central's Jewish superstar Jon Stewart's real name is Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_stewart

"Stewart" is well-paid to NOT talk about serious topics, but to joke about them instead, or censor them altogether (such as NeoCon Jews perping the 9/11 Massacres to blame the Arabs). Why is it most "Jews" have zero loyalty to USA or the Constitution, but unlimited loyalty to non-Semitic Khazar "Jews" who are not US citizens? "Stewart" calls himself a "socialist".

British Fabian Socialism is incremental Communism. Socialist is defined as the Nazi National Socialst Party. The Communist Manifesto was written in London England by Jew Karl Marx. Mexican illegal aliens are often Communists, and prefer the Commie "red fist" logo or Marx/Lenin/Trotsky photos on signs during parades and riots in Mexico and USA. Communist China is also staging massive immigration to USA (including jobs in US nuke weapons factories), in addition to stealing millions of US jobs and factories.

So "Stewart" is hired to roast George DWI Bush at the White House Correspondants Dinner, along with his sidekick Steven Colbert.

Will this treason change, before its too late? Is it already too late?

"Son, you're not the first man to piss off a woman and end up stranded on the side of the road. That's why I always take my keys with me when I get out."
-Trucker, Drive

DRIVE VS POLICE STATE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
OOPS! CANCELLED!!! FINAL EPPS ON JULY 4 8PM EST
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FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
This is one place where my liberal friends and I part company. The only "reform" that our immigration laws need is to drop the allowance that children born in the USA are automatically citizens.... the "anchor baby" provision. IMHO, only children born to USA citizens should be citizens.

I would be willing to trade THAT for amnesty, but not anything else. The current proposal is so unworkable that it is no solution at all.... it's main purpose is to muddy the illegal status of people working in the USA.

That's the funny thing Signy....

The American people on either side of the coin don't want to see this happening and their will is being ignored on this issue. At the same time American politicians in a bi-partisan effort want it to happen because they are the only ones that have anything to gain from it, and at the very same time they'll tell us our economy will collapse without them.

This is just another reason why I will vote for Ron Paul.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Will this treason change, before its too late? Is it already too late?

It's already too late.

I appreciate your trying to get the truth out there though PN, no matter how many "Heros" there are out there that will try to discredit what you have to say.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:31 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I suspect Hero is starting to wake up. My diabolical plan is working...

If it's already too late, that just means the Revolutionary fun is starting...

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:35 PM

I've been out of the loop at fff.net for a few weeks, so I have no idea what you mean by that, but if it's true, I must say I have no idea how you're doing it.

Maybe beating people over the head with the truth repeatedly does have its merits.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:59 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Get out your pitchforks, tar and feathers:
Quote:

VIDEO: Jewish Lawyers Teach How To NOT Hire An American citizen in USA

www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/6/18/22435/0365

Ok, the world is coming to an end. I get sent a link today by a coworker and watch it; later, I come home and see that PN has posted the same link. I should start to worry ;-)

Edit: Notes to congress people enroute. If there's a proposal tomorrow to do away with H1-b visa's, I'm taking credit for it ;-)
====
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Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
If it's already too late, that just means the Revolutionary fun is starting...

Hehe..... Shiny. Let's be bad guys.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 22, 2007 4:15 AM

Funny video about Immigration....Indian style.....

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Friday, June 22, 2007 7:05 AM