US crowd beats passenger to death by Khyron

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

US crowd beats passenger to death

POSTED BY: KHYRON
UPDATED: Friday, June 29, 2007 16:03
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5702
PAGE 2 of 2

Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:09 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Sigh ... all this ...

"Well, you asked for details, there were details on the website and I referred you to them, they weren't good enough so I asked you what details you were looking for, and told you that these might be in the references, which I didn't get a proper answer to and the references apparently weren't good enough either."

... is just an extended version of "didn't you read ?" ... How many quotes and questions do I have to cite to prove to you that I DID read ?

And this ...

"I could accuse you of seriously misrepresenting our discussion because that's what you're doing at the moment, but it's not worth my time. And on second thought, I won't insult you personally here, even though you deserve it, because that's what you want so that you can hold it against me for the next few months and indulge yourself further in your innocent-victim-fantasies."

... just more snark, which of course you never do, all your posts are neutral and fact-driven. Riiiiight.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:30 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?

You mean someone was beaten to death in a vertical farm!?!?! oh, the horror!

Legumies vs Carbos I bet. Bad, bad turf war there.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:31 AM

KHYRON

It takes a special kind of... something... to get "didn't you read ?" from this:

"Well, you asked for details, there were details on the website and I referred you to them, they weren't good enough so I asked you what details you were looking for, and told you that these might be in the references, which I didn't get a proper answer to and the references apparently weren't good enough either."

Quote:
How many quotes and questions do I have to cite to prove to you that I DID read ?

Oh you read some of the information, just not the parts that would've answered your questions, it seems.

Quote:
... just more snark, which of course you never do, all your posts are neutral and fact-driven. Riiiiight.

I never denied making snarky comments. In fact I admitted doing so at least twice in this thread alone. Didn't you read?

Now stop putting words in my mouth. Go away and let me enjoy what's left of my evening.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:22 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
A - Cabbies are a rough bunch, and far from the most trustworthy folk in the world, and no, you *shouldn't* trust them, you think imma sit there and defend a collective of people that I know to be corrupt just cause they're my co-workers ?
Burn your strawman somewhere else.

How is that a strawman? You are blaming all American servicepersons for the acts of a few. Kind of like calling all cabbies rapists for the acts of a few. Don't want you to defend cabbies, just see the error of your statement.

Quote:
- At this point, it *is* their decision, when clearly illegal orders are given, and then obeyed, sorry, but the onus of that act lies directly on the troop obeying them.

If the original orders were illegal, why has no one been brought to justice?

Quote:
IF they believed the order illegal, and obeyed it out of fear of what happens to folk who defy illegal orders (that lesson being drummed into them from day one), then yes, that's their responsibility to bear.

Don't you think it's a road to disaster to start empowering servicepeople to decide which orders to follow and which orders not?

Quote:

IF they believed the orders were legal, even if stupid, then why the hell should they ? who here has never executed a boss's dumbass plan before ?

You never mentioned the 'boss' before, just the servicepeople themselves.

Quote:
C - Your point is incomprehensible, I am pointing out some raw and ugly facts about our history and society, and thus fail to understand why you would accuse me of blinding myself with patriotism at this point ?

No accusations were made on my end. You stated the following,

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
America, the america we've built in the last hundred years, is not a nice place, in fact it's downright dystopic, you think I carry a piece just for show ? I neither approve of nor participate in such behavior, but damned if imma blind myself to it in the name of patriotic loyalty, that's just asinine.

I simply asked who in your opinion is blinding themselves to this behaviour in the name of patriotic loyalty. I did not see anyone doing so in this thread, IMHO.

Quote:
Just cause I can see the warts and scars, doesn't mean I don't love the old bitch, you know.

I don't think that was ever in question but thanks for clarifying.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Okay Finn, it's a long one, but it's civil, so don't worry.

Thank you, I appreciate your explanations and your patience. You’re arguments makes a lot more sense to me now and I think it is safe to say that we agree more then disagree.

I think the only cheif source of contention is our respective assessments of the frequency of such events, and that depends heavily on our interpretations of the actual events, which are not very clear at this point. However some further information may help to shed some light on this. It now seems that the incident was not 20 on 1 as was the worst case assessment earlier, but rather the attackers numbered four against two, initially. When the driver escaped, the passenger was left to fend off four against one. Finally, a fifth man attacked the now seriously injured passenger, which may likely have resulted in the fatal injuries. There were 15 to 20 people at the scene, but most of them did not participate in the attack. I’m no longer sure if I would call the attackers a “mob” anymore. I think there was a mob mentality there, but it was not similar to the kind of events that are often associated with the Third world.

I do however think that mob attacks are common in the US and Europe. The riots in Detroit, the riots in Los Angeles are all pretty good examples of unaffiliated gangs taking to the street in mass attacks against individuals. I think Football Hooligans also apply, although you’ve specifically chosen to ignore them, I think that is a mistake. I don’t think there is that much difference between a bunch of people hyped up on a Juneteenth celebration and a bunch of people hyped up on football, other then riots over sports, both in Europe and the US, are probably more common.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I was referring to the Vertical Farming thread. Obviously.

Uh... why? Wazzit just so someone could make a horrible... and I mean HORRIBLE... crack about turf wars???? (You know who you are! Just whip yourself 100X with a wet noodle and repeat: I will not punish my fellow Browncoats with 2/3 puns!)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:11 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I was referring to the Vertical Farming thread. Obviously.
Uh... why? Wazzit just so someone could make a horrible... and I mean HORRIBLE... crack about turf wars???? (You know who you are! Just whip yourself 100X with a wet noodle and repeat: I will not punish my fellow Browncoats with 2/3 puns!)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Siggy,
You have proven yourself a tool already in the 'immigration nation' thread....Why do it now?

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Imma just clarify the one point I have time for with ya, far as that goes.

I got the same problem with cop apologists.
"isolated incident"
"few bad apples"
And other faerytales.

It's bullshit, is what it is, especially when it becomes a known and well documented pattern of behavior - you give a man a gun, set him above other men, and he WILL abuse what you have given him, it's human nature, and a resounding flaw in our society everyone seems hell bent on ignoring.

And frankly, it's even worse when the folks whom you set him above aren't even his countrymen.

Just as we've done with police in general but letting them off easy due to the polite fiction that it's an isolated incident, so too has our military become corrupt due to lax enforcement of the UCMJ and Rules of Engagement, and this is a problem with ANY group of armed folks you set above and start handing authority, military or civvie - the behavior of Dyncorp, which was treated with a blind eye and knowing wink in columbia, when carried over into Kosovo, was no particular surprise, nor is the ill behavior of many UN Peacekeepers in locales around the world, it's the very nature of the beast.

Americans are just somewhat worse for it because we insulate ourselves from each other, and teach ourselves and our children to see "other" as inhuman - it's a fact, look around you even now and watch how arabic muslims are demonized constantly in an attempt to dehumanize them to make them easier to hate and destroy without compassion or regret.

These things add up to an ugly picture, and maybe some folks who live here stand a bit too close to a tree to see the forest of em, but I sure as hell do not.

You wanna case example of the reverse of this behavior, look at Finland, Finns generally see each other as all part of the same tribe or collective, and consequently there is substantially less interpersonal violence and crime becase it's much harder to rob or kill someone you see as a fellow human being.

That's the gist of it, and I can't really put it no plainer than that.

Not that anyone seems to care, but there you have it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"too tired and frustrated by Rue" Amazing - I hadn't even posted in this thread and I got blamed. Some people are incredibly biased (ahem - Khyron).

I don’t know why you’re surprised. Khyron is not saying anything a good number of people on this board haven’t already noticed. You and Signym tag-team flame threads on this board and it irritate the hell out of a lot of people.

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Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
...unless America is far more violent than foreigners are aware of.

Well, I think that's the real point here Khyron. Minus all the pills and laws and, as Frem said, politeness, we (In the USA and the UK) are just as capable of murderousness as anybody else in the world. We've been top dawgs for quite some time, and when you have everything, you're not very likely to get to the point that you'd do something like this unless it were extreme and highly unusual circumstances.

Now I'm not going to try to pick out every action similar to this that happens in the UK on a daily basis (or Europe for that matter), but this happens all of the time. If we're going to be honest about it, it usually is at the hands of minorities too, not because of the color of their skin directly, but indirectly because they are usually the demographic of any society who a) owns less shit and b) has a much tougher life.

Given that 20 black men beat a Mexican to death, what I want to know is why this isn't labled a "hate crime". Well, that's a rhetorical question actually. Everybody knows that there is no such thing as a hate crime unless it's A) A white male attacking someone who doesn't fit both of those demographics or B) anybody who's not gay attacking a homosexual.

If anything, I view this story as further evidence that we need to do away with the "hate crime" all together. If you're breaking the law and harming somebody, you're breaking the law and harming somebody. Race or whatever may have played a part in it, but bottom line is, as an individual you broke the law and initiated an attack on somebody and you diserved to be punished, regardless of what was in your heart when you did it.

Why didn't I ever read this story before? Why wasn't this a hate crime?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.showbiz.gossip/browse_thread/thread
/d89a8105b4f6c149

The only reason I found this story now was because I was looking for a story about a group of kids that beat another kid to death in the UK about a year back while girls cheered them on. Until reading the story in the link above, it was one of the most chilling articles that I've ever read, only because it reminded me so much of Lord of the Flies. Now I'm sick to my stomach from that story on the link. How could anybody be so horrible to another human being, especially somebody they didn't know. If this isn't the most extreme example of pure hatered based soley on race, I don't know what is. I'm torturing myself now imagining what those three days must have been like for that poor girl.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 23, 2007 11:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

" I don’t know why you’re surprised. Khyron is not saying anything a good number of people on this board haven’t already noticed. You and Signym tag-team flame threads on this board and it irritate the hell out of a lot of people."

Nah, only a few whom we question, on topic, of course.

But seriously, here is how you're wrong:

"tag-team" - I don't keep track of when SignyM posts, and I suspect it's true the other way around. When the two of us are posting in the same discussion I almost always back off for a few reasons: 1) since SignyM and I seem to have similar views, I think my questions and observations will probably be represented, 2) I think SignyM might be a more consistent poster and is more likely to carry on a continuous discussion and 3) I don't want to 'gang-up' on anyone. (Though ganging-up is something your ilk seems to have no problems doing. I can say "ilk", can't I ? According to Kyhron it's just snark and not an insult.)

"flame threads" As I understand it flaming is a mutual exchange of snark or insults. One poster who is consistently above that is SignyM. As far as I can see, SignyM is persistent but on topic. Personally, if someone throws snark or insults my way I have no problems responding in kind.

And finally, just 'cause someone says something doesn't make it so. For example, some posters do a great job portraying disagreement as personal attacks. Not only do I invite you, I IMPLORE you to read this thread http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=26208 - read JUST MY POSTS, it won't take long. What do you find? Persistent, logical, informed presentation of the facts - from me. So I invite anyone to show how I provoked a flame war. In fact, check out my posts on vertical farming. And please show me how I provoked a flame war. Just 'cause people - like you - say something, doesn't make it so.

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Only bland agreement is allowed here.

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

What's happenin' Rue? Long time no talk.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I've been busy - again. There's been a lot going on at work and in life so I'll post for a few days, then be off for a bunch. It's been a while since I've seen you too. How are you? And have you been away or have we just been passing each other in posting ?

Edited to add - it's 4AM here and I have to get up early so I'll catch you later.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:13 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

thread hijack...

Ahhhh..... I can't say I have much going on in the outside world where much is ever really going on that I could call myself busy. Tons of stuff always going on between these two ears though. I haven't been on here for a few weeks till a couple of days ago myself. Been hanging out in the non RWED threads pretty much and getting into fights there too. LOL. I don't mean to. My fingers get to typing and nobody ever likes what they have to say. It's funny... in real life, though I'm just as opinionated and I probably do more than my share of bitching about things, I don't get in to many arguements with anybody....

Been good, glad to see you are too. Hope you get good sleep and I'll be talking to ya sometime. I got the next three days off of work so maybe I'll talk to you soon.

/thread hijack...

Sorry RWEDers, especailly Khyron who's thread this is...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 4:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
My fingers get to typing and nobody ever likes what they have to say.

I feel that way about myself too. But I generally like what you have to say. I may not agree with everything you say, and I know you don't agree with everything I say, but I always find your posts interesting.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

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Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:18 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thanks CTS.... I'm sure we've had our rounds of RWEDian bouts, but I know we've at least agreed on as many things as we've disagreed on. One thing that I've noticed is your ability not to fly off the handle like I do..... that's not to say, of course that you don't get under peoples skin like I do, but I've never seen you bludgen thier face in with a hammer either....

Browncoats are cool people. I've never seen blueprints on how we're supposed to act, and if I did, I suppose I wouldn't be a Browncoat.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, June 25, 2007 3:14 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Police are now confirming the incident was not a mob attack but only three or four attackers.

Less critical changes are that the child that was hit by the car was a 2 year old boy, who was not badly injured.

Police still don’t have a lot of information about the killers or their motivation for the crime.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4911213.html
http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/?SecID=278&ArID=186578

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Friday, June 29, 2007 4:03 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I was referring to the Vertical Farming thread. Obviously.
Uh... why? Wazzit just so someone could make a horrible... and I mean HORRIBLE... crack about turf wars???? (You know who you are! Just whip yourself 100X with a wet noodle and repeat: I will not punish my fellow Browncoats with 2/3 puns!)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Well.....I found it amusing.

---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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