What ever happened to honor? by bullhor

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What ever happened to honor?

POSTED BY: BULLHOR
UPDATED: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:05
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VIEWED: 1823
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Monday, June 25, 2007 3:02 AM

In the world we live in today, with nothing but lies and deceit from people in important positions, and with most ppl only looking out for themselves or to make a buck. I ask you this what happened to honor and chivalry. Chivalry is not something that says just to be kind to women either, it is a code of conduct to live by. Do good for your fellow man and help people out without there being some kind of reward or "perk" for you. So I ask you this what has happened to chivalry and honor?
/discuss

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Monday, June 25, 2007 4:11 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Today the term Chivalry is highly romanticized in reference to Medieval European Knights that are thought to have acted in accordance with certain “chivalrous” rules. In reality, however, Chivalry was as romanticized in medieval times as it is today. It is an invention of medieval authors not knights, who often wrote about knights, knighthood and heraldry in very aristocratic terms, presenting them virtuous and courageous warriors. In practice, the lives of knights was a lot more messy and grey-ish then medieval authors portrayed it, but knights did live and fight by a code of honor. Knights believed themselves to be virtuous and courage and skilled in combat, and all of this was probably true in one way or another. Although I’m not sure that the ideals of chivalry that medieval knights lived and fought by would have translated well into the modern era, and by modern sensibilities, chivalry is alive and well today in the faces and actions of our soldiers. On the whole our modern servicemen are far more honorable and chivalrous even by medieval romanticized standards then medieval knights ever were. So I don’t think that it is fair to say that chivalry is gone. I don’t think chivalry as it is widely perceived ever existed, and I think that we are much closer to that ideal of chivalry today then we have ever been.

It is also important to note that not even medieval authors necessarily extended the ideal of chivalry to politicians. Chivalry was a characteristic of noble warriors, not politicians. And it was also heavily seated in the ideals of aristocracy. The concept of the inalienable right of freedom was a serious deathblow to the medieval political aspect of chivalry. Today, in America, all man are born with an expectation of liberty, but Medieval Europe was still very, very aristocratic, and liberty was not something a man was born with, unless the man was born to certain families. The only way to achieve that liberty without having noble or royal lineage was to be knighted.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, June 25, 2007 4:33 AM

FLETCH2

I think the problem is that there is no social consequences to these kinds of actions. True if you are caught doing something illegal you may go to "Club Fed" but once you get out you get the book deals and the other perks of celebritee.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 4:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by bullhor:
In the world we live in today, with nothing but lies and deceit from people in important positions, and with most ppl only looking out for themselves or to make a buck. I ask you this what happened to honor and chivalry. Chivalry is not something that says just to be kind to women either, it is a code of conduct to live by. Do good for your fellow man and help people out without there being some kind of reward or "perk" for you. So I ask you this what has happened to chivalry and honor?
/discuss

Honor and chivalry are very much alive and well. It's there all around us, every day...subtle things that people do for eachother out of kindness and civility. Unfortunately, it's the misfits and rude aggressors of the world who garner the headlines, and tintilate our purient interests.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:02 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Chivalry...
Now THERE's a can o' worms ifI ever saw one!
Problem with that, see, is that there is no real NEED to be honorable, because, being Capatilist, we place an emphasis on getting (and keeping) money, and it is rather hard to get/keep lots a cash if you are honorable to any large degree.
Now, while it still exists, it is overshadowed by such big buisness folks (Not naming names,though) what make a habit of selling other peoples souls for perks.
(Actually, that's true. You CAN sell your soul on E-Bay, which just says a LOT about us in general)
So, in the end, Chivalry is still ALIVE (technically), but it is not emphasised, so folks will not do it unless pressed, which they mostly aren't. No honor needed in an Office, eh?

-Danny

Could it have been something I said,
Or was it something that I did,
Did I ruin my chance, have you written me off?
Tell me, where did I cross the line,
And can I work my way back this time?
Will I always regret this decision...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!

I LIKE CHEESE!!!

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:13 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by bullhor:
In the world we live in today, with nothing but lies and deceit from people in important positions.....Do good for your fellow man and help people out without there being some kind of reward or "perk" for you. So I ask you this what has happened to chivalry and honor?

Great question bullhor. In my opinion, it's largely cultural due to the prevailing economic circumstance. We have tons of Russian imigrants here in Sacramento, when they first get here, a lot of them start out being pushy, rude, suspicious, selfish, and so on. They must have had to be that way to survive back home, but as time goes by the ease up, and become polite, freindly, and more likely to feel capable of doing good for thier fellow man. As for non imigrant Americans, I'm sure you'll find that the amount "chivalry and honor" you'll see within social groupings correlates to the economic hardship each group faces. As for afluent individuals raised in a positive environment, and they're still selfish! Genetics are a big thing, some people are just predisposed to be assholes

I'm not sure people are much different now then they were before. There just seems to be so many more of them, that you're 10 times as likely to bump into an asshole that pisses you off during the day. Bad moods are corrosive and contageous. Also, the busy lives we've been forced into prevent us from noticing opportunities to help our fellow man. We gotta get the minivan home, feed the kids, give em baths, and start the battle to get them to bed. Oh, and the dishes, shit!....

So...in conclusion. We're either in too big of a rush, too busy trying to survive, or just don't care.

"How drunk was I last night?"
"I don't know I passed out"

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm going with the word in your thread title (Honor)

You talk about two different sorts of people: important people and most people.

"Back in the day", peasants, knights, and nobility didn't all live by the same rules. The nobility were supposed to protect their vasssals, and the knights to follow a code of honor in return for having life-and-death power over the peasants, on whom they depended for sustenance. I'm not sure how well that worked in reality bc there were "peasant revolutions" througout the Middle Ages when the nobility or their knights failed to meet their obligations.
www.h-debate.com/cbarros/english/articulos_ing/medieval/berlin.htm
The important thing about that system which is different from today is that "important people" were expected to follow a code that was different from "most people" in exchange for their power.

But under capitalism, everyone is supposed to be equal in the market, and everyone is supposed to be able to aspire to the same success if they follow the same code: Greed is good. Even though most people still follow their inclination to cooperate, to be honest, and to meet their obligations to their families, neighbors and country it is easy to see how that moral code will eventually erode in the face of sociopathic greed wielded by the important. Ultimately, it will become obvious that naked greed is not a value that can hold an entire society together. and that the notion of equality in the market is just a cover for the powerful. When that happens, a sense of honor will return.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 5:54 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by bullhor:
So I ask you this what has happened to chivalry and honor?

IMHO, nothing happened. It still exists in folks today as it existed in a folks in ages past. Customs of civility may have changed, but people haven't changed.

As one poster said, honor and chivalry don't get the headlines, so we don't hear about it. My husband once rode a bike from Alaska to Alabama. Having a small gas tank, he had to be careful not to run out of gas in the boondocks of Alaska. On one long stretch of road, there was only one gas station on the map where he could fill up, but there was no town there. Taking a leap of faith, he continued and sure enough, there was a gas station where the map indicated. However, it was completely unmanned. There was a money box with a sign that said, "Make your change here." He filled up, paid, and went on his way. Now that gas station wouldn't exist if there were no more honor in the world. But things like that don't get on CNN.

Another point is that folks who practice honor and chilvary don't get ahead much. Generally speaking, people with power and wealth are those who don't have scruples stepping on others on the way up. So all the folks we tend to "look up to," the politicians, the business leaders, and the wealthy celebrities, by and large are a group of people without honor and chilvary to begin with.

I travel a lot around the world, and meet tons of people internationally. With the exception of a small minority, most people I've met have honored their verbal deals with me even when they could have cheated me easily. Chilvary is slightly a bit harder to come by, but I've been helped by enough strangers that I wouldn't say it was rare either. Strangers have fed me, given me rides, put me up in their homes, etc--just out of the kindness of their hearts. This happens regardless of the social customs of the country. There are still plenty of good people everywhere. They just don't get a lot of attention, since they do what they do for nothing in return.

I think there is definitely less honor and chilvary in some circles than others. For example, when I was a social worker working to help people get on welfare, lots of people asked me for small personal loans, a couple of dollars here and there. They beg and plead and promise on the lives of their children that they would pay me back next week. But out of dozens that I felt sorry for, only one ever came and paid me back. I've met plenty of very poor people who were honorable and chilvarous, but very few of them were amongst the folks who begged for money.

So yeah, honor and chilvary is out there. Just not in politicians, leaders, celebrities, and panhandlers--the people that make themselves the most visible to the public.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

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Monday, June 25, 2007 8:10 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by bullhor:
Do good for your fellow man and help people out without there being some kind of reward or "perk" for you. So I ask you this what has happened to chivalry and honor?

Maybe we've all just stopped pretending. The real question is was there ever REALLY chivalry and honor?

H

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Monday, June 25, 2007 8:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Most people do not "pretend" to be good. Moral code is built into our behavior. To quote from a link in the evolution thread:

Quote:
What if mice showed greater distress at the suffering of familiar mice than unfamiliar ones? (They do.) What if monkeys will starve themselves to prevent their cage-mates from receiving painful shocks? (They will.) What if chimps have a demonstrable sense of fairness when receiving food rewards? (They have.)

Primitive humans could not have survived w/o some form of inbuilt cooperation. But like all creatures, we exist on a contiuum. Some people are profoundly empathetic and some are sociopaths. Unfortunately, as a prosecutor you see the worst and it may skew your view of humanity.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:05 AM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I think the problem is that there is no social consequences to these kinds of actions. True if you are caught doing something illegal you may go to "Club Fed" but once you get out you get the book deals and the other perks of celebritee.

Thats not it at all. If the only reason people are acting honorably is the fear of punishment, then it's not honor at all; it's pure self-interest.

I visited Sweden a couple of years ago. While there, I saw one of the most amazing things I've (as an American) ever seen. I was walking through a park in Gothenberg with a Swedish friend, when we came across a hat that had been dropped. My friend picked it up, held it in the air and asked several passersby if it belonged to them. It didn't. So he took it, and placed it on the top of a fence that bordered the park. When i asked why he put it there, he said that when the owner realized that he'd lost his hat, he would return and find it on the fence.

I asked him how he knew someone wouldn't steal it, and he replied "Why would they do that? It's not theirs." He was genuinely confused. I also noticed that all along the fence there were other things that had been dropped in the park. There were lighters, hats, pens, and even wallets that people had found and left for the owners to pick up. Nothing was stolen because, as my friend said, "It's not theirs."

The people that found those things din't leave them because of a punishment that they would have suffered if they didn't. They left them because their culture values honesty.

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"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!

Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"

- from the song "Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth

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