We're celebrating what, again ? by Fremdfirma

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn, don't you ever wonder why so many independent-minded folk thing you're a boot-licker?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 12:38 PM

No.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 12:44 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!

I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!

I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?

I don’t think any of it means America is not worth celebrating on July 4th, do you?

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 1:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?

I guess I didn’t make myself clear enough, the issue here is not that there are things we don’t agree with, but rather despite these things, is America still worth celebrating? Is it?

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 1:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Celebrating? Yes. There is much to be happy with: Woman have the vote and slaves were freed. But mindlessly celebrating? No.

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams

But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government. -- Andrew Jackson,

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. -- Edmund Burke

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 1:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Celebrating? Yes. Mindlessly celebrating? No.

What does this mean? Either you believe America is worth celebrating or you don’t, but this sounds like you’re saying that someone can celebrate America, as long as you agree with how they’re doing it or what they believe in.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 1:46 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You asked me my opinion and I gave it, and now you're trying to imply that I'm going to ram it down everyone's throat? Obviously not.

But I personally think that the bar the Founding Fathers set for most people is too high. Most folks want to set off fireworks and have a brewski. As long as they're comfortable they really DON'T care much about freedom. And freedom really DOES require eternal vigilance because most people with a little bit of power will use that power to gain more, and it snowballs unless others actively oppose it.

I think the FF were well aware of the trend of power concentrating into fewer and fewer hands. Beign educated historians I'm sure they were aware of the fall of the Roman Republic, as well as the excesses of monarchies. They did their best to avoid it by creating three Branches (which Cheney is not part of!

) and by creating the vote, which is a lot easier than having to shoot a government out of power. But despite all of these structural and procedural improvements, Ben Franklin was not particularly optimistic about our prospects. When asked about the form out government would take, he reputedly said "A Republic, if you can keep it".

I think we've kept the form but lost much of the substance.

PS: I think freedom is worth celebrating.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:20 PM

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:31 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
....and the asshats supporting them - that's you!)
SergeantX

That's the best you got Barney?...pretty sad and lame. Read my post again Herbert...you might learn something about life...live it and enjoy it...save your whiny bullshit for explaining to your mate why you can't perform properly due to your "nation being raped" mental problems.

I got better... read past post....enjoy the pancakes.....

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:34 PM

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:35 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Read my post again Herbert...you might learn something about life...

Well I took your advice, and indeed, I did learn something. I learned don't think people should complain when they see their country being hijacked. That's too bad, cause we're not shutting up. What you guys are failing to face is that it's not America we hate. It's you. You and all the fear obsessed weenies that endorse the Bush administration. You've betrayed your country, and if we have to, we'll run your asses out of town on a rail to save it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 2:43 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
What? You're free!...free to pontificate and spew at your leisure in air-conditioned luxury ...certainly not being forced to strap dynamite sticks to your chest, and certainly not getting whipped to death 'cause your beard is too fucking short, and certainly not seeing your sister raped and stoned to death 'cause she blinked at some guy...right? Well that's the other side pal, I bleed not a drop, and sweat not a bead for them. Why don't you form your own country somewhere.."

If this is a statement that defines our freedoms...We are in bigger trouble than I thought. How about an illegal income tax, turning a cheek at a subpoena, a fairness doctrine, monopoly money from the private entity known as the Federal reserve bank, Patriot Act...etc. So, let us not use the "We are not as bad as a Muslim state" argument to defend the "we are still free" position....It is as laughable as shit pancakes..........Well, it's true....

What the hell happened to you Kaneman? Where's all you abusive words?...You're not living up to your ID Tag. Has "the man" beaten you down so low that you are now ready to tow the line and be all nice and fuzzy? Jeeeez, I'm not ready to see that from you.

My tag may stay forever...If you call my post towing the line.............WoW!!! See..I have no prob telling people to rape and kill unwanted black fetuses so we can build a fence against illegal immigrants...but down play my right to say it...?and you got a little testy over my Chinese food post...........Don'tcaremuchisall.....Well, it's true....

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:03 PM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
My tag may stay forever...If you call my post towing the line.............WoW!!! See..I have no prob telling people to rape and kill unwanted black fetuses so we can build a fence against illegal immigrants...

I can vouch for Kane's black crack baby fence because I helped...

If you're not on our side of the fence, you'll have to look the crack babies in the eye!

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:18 PM

Give the sheep cake and circus and you can do whatever you want to behind their backs.

If there is any hope, it lies with the Proletariat...

Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:31 PM

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 3:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Bold words Rosie...but I seem to recall that your ilk are the folks who always threaten/promise to leave the country every election, but none of you ever do.

Not true, Sally, oh how I do love Dr. Cox's character on scrubs. You're real original there Susan.

Anyhow... I hate Demoncrats and I hate celebrities who decide their political opinions matter, particularly the ones that say they'll leave and then don't. (I belive that Johnny Depp is the only one who threatened it and actually went through with it)

My hatered and distrust for our Government is bipartisan from top to bottom.

I love America. I love Freedom. I am a Patriot. Not a mindless zombie watching fireworks while I guzzle my beer and wave my flag around, and not have a clue what any of it means.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:10 PM

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:40 PM

LOL.... Sheeple..

I love how you still equate me with the MSNBC-Bush-Bashing-base as well. I hate the man, but admittedly, I was happier to have him in than either of his alternatives. Why would I give MSNBC's lies any more creedance than FOX News?

Anyhow, it is your interpretation of my words that I don't reflect what I believe in my writing. You are so closeminded that you would never even begin to be able to understand where I'm coming from, and talking to people like you is as effective as hitting my head repeatedly with a hammer.

Why should your kids give a rat's ass about their loss of freedom and what the Government has already taken, and why should they ever even know about what was already taken from them that their ancestors here had? It's not as if they're learning about these issues in a Federally Funded School System or your household. You just keep being a good consumer and watch FOX News (or MSNBC) and don't ask any questions, or teach your kids to ask why they're going to grow up having video cameras watching them all day at school "for their protection".

Meanwhile.... the adults are having a conversation here and you're becoming quite a pest.

If it truly is "total nothingness" to you, why don't you just disappear? I surely don't want you here questioning my patriotism.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:45 PM

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 7:49 PM

Quote:
What you guys are failing to face is that it's not America we hate. It's you. You and all the fear obsessed weenies that endorse the Bush administration. You've betrayed your country, and if we have to, we'll run your asses out of town on a rail to save it.

Hear, Hear, Sarge!

You get the tar, I'll get the feathers, and I'm sure Jack can find us a fencerail...

I find it rather ironic that the same slams bein thrown in my direction were also thrown in the direction of Patrick Henry when he said it would come to this, and explained how in chapter and verse, something we've addressed in other threads.

And for the record, given the choice, I'd do more than leave this country, I'd leave this PLANET - but till that's a viable option imma do everything in my power to drag the country of my birth back to the Constitutional Republic it's supposed to be.

Be damned to the Federalists, I say.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, July 5, 2007 9:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And for the record, given the choice, I'd do more than leave this country, I'd leave this PLANET - but till that's a viable option imma do everything in my power to drag the country of my birth back to the Constitutional Republic it's supposed to be.

Damn right Frem.... this planet is just getting too small. I'd love to go to another country that was better, if there were one, but I don't imagine that once you strip away all of the layers of bullshit surrounding the pride of any nation there's really any place on this rock that has it right, or anymore right than we do.

You're more than welcome to get in on my plans to build a rocket and start a pot and tobacco farm on the dark side of the moon. (Darkside, cause the FEDS will be less likely to detect me, and we can just use mirrors for light anyhow) Don't suppose they'd let me leave the atmosphere even if I figured out how to on my own though. Don't exactly have the tools necessary to execute those plans yet, either.

However, I do have this spare fencerail lying around here somewhere.... Wonder what we could use that for?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, July 6, 2007 2:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Should I be happy that we are a de-facto corporate oligarchy instead of a constitutional republic, no matter what it says on paper ?

Not at all.
But Frem, amidst all you understandable (and shared) anger, can you see a light at the end of this Neo-Con tunnel? Will corporate American government fall at some point, in favour or the rule of law and will of the peeps? Or are we ultimately headed toward revolution of some kind? Shrubbie's ratings domestically and worldwide is shrinking- is that not a sign of at least a partial awakening?
Just fishing here for something positive...

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
Except that I never said such a thing.

Well then, you implied is stongly...
"It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America."
Wouldn't ya say?

Just sayin' Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I think we've kept the form but lost much of the substance.

Much like season three of BSG...

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Plausible deniability etc, etc,...

"Dude, what happened to all the slaves working on the south wall? Looks like they're all dead!"

"Ah, Imo-Tep said he wanted that side of the pyramid done today, no matter WHAT!"

"But he didn't say to work 'em to DEATH!!"

"Well...he didn't say NOT to...."

And there it began

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
then I'm wasting my time.

You do that a lot.

So do I Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way.

Actually I define it by the level of corruption, the erosion of freedoms, and the condoned illegal activities perpetrated in the name of National Security that bring shame to America.
This is a road I don't want my country on, and one, that in the past- for certain other countries, has led to all manner of unpeasantness.

Satan Clause is out there, best be prepared, son. Always be prepared.

Willis-quoting Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
Except that I never said such a thing.

Well then, you implied is stongly...
"It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America."
Wouldn't ya say?

No. I didn't imply anything. What I said was that a particular paragraph written by Frem was pure anti-Americanism. (Whether that interpretation was Frem’s intent, I can’t say, but certainly it was a valid interpretation.) What Serg thinks this has to do with him hating America, one can only wonder. Perhaps he was just speaking rhetorically.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What Serg thinks this has to do with him hating America, one can only wonder. Perhaps he was just speaking rhetorically.

Anticipatory pre-emptive strike?

Looking back, yeah, you weren't talking to or about him with that.

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 3:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, don't you ever wonder why so many independent-minded folk thing you're a boot-licker?

Nah, he has a point of view- that this system works- on most levels at least.
Some view American Government as in need of a tune-up, other think it needs a major overhaul.

I'd save 'boot-licker' for Hero and AU

The early bird gets to post Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 4:21 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way.
Actually I define it by the level of corruption, the erosion of freedoms, and the condoned illegal activities perpetrated in the name of National Security that bring shame to America.
This is a road I don't want my country on, and one, that in the past- for certain other countries, has led to all manner of unpeasantness.

And how different would things be if two airplanes hadn't flown into the World Trade Centre towers? Perhaps the present administration went overboard with the terrorist threat but something had to be done. Would everyone be happy if after the attacks Bush simply stated that we shall do nothing because we are free and liberty comes before life? What if there have been no further terror attacks on American soil because of the measures taken by this administration? What if Iraq was a preemptive strike (not when it was struck but who knows down the road)? Will the 'war on terror' ever end so the patriot act can be shelved? Will it be shelved by the next president regardless? Have there been other times in America's history where the future looked grim to some before the ship righted itself?

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Friday, July 6, 2007 4:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

And how different would things be if two airplanes hadn't flown into the World Trade Centre towers?

Bush n' Cheney would be doing their Pinky and the Brain schemes to try and grab the power that Bin Laden served them on that silver platter.

Quote:
Would everyone be happy if after the attacks Bush simply stated that we shall do nothing because we are free and liberty comes before life?

No.

Quote:
What if there have been no further terror attacks on American soil because of the measures taken by this administration?

They (terrorists) mostly shot their wad with 911, I suspect.

Quote:
What if Iraq was a preemptive strike (not when it was struck but who knows down the road)?

It wasn't, so we needn't discuss that point.

Quote:
Will the 'war on terror' ever end so the patriot act can be shelved?

Bureaucrats give up power...are you mad?

Quote:
Will it be shelved by the next president regardless?

One can hope...

Quote:
Have there been other times in America's history where the future looked grim to some before the ship righted itself?

Yes, and I'm hoping our darkest days are almost behind us.

Itemized Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:20 AM

What if we didn't overthrow a democratically elected leader and replace him with a brutal dictator back in 1953 ?

Full Circle - you DO shit, other shit follows, it's called cause and effect, and some day down the road, future generations will curse at US for the blowback from invading Iraq, just as imma cussin the bastards who propped up the Shah.

Is that any kinda legacy to leave our youth ?
No wonder they hate us so, not only watching us crush their freedoms before they even experience them, but many of them are indeed smart enough to know how badly our current international idiocy is going to blow back on them down the road.

As for hope, Chris - I am of the mind that Ford made a dire mistake in pardoning Tricky Dick, and that we should have cleaned house and shut down these totally *ruinous* mad dog alphabet agencies then, or it would not have come to this... and that leads us to the decision point we're soon to be at here.

Impeach em, not just Bush and Cheney, but a full-on purge, clean house of the whole little cabal, Kristol, Rove, Wolfie, Scooter and every single damned one of the madmen who got us into this, lock em up and pitch the keys into the sagebrush so their lingering influance a'al Kissinger won't keep coming BACK to haunt us over and over again.

Believe me, there's plenty and plenty of evidence for prosecutin em, RICO for starters, as what they've done most certainly constitutes a criminal conspiracy and subversion of our system of government for personal and idealogical gain without regard to the consequences, and in Scooters case this isn't exactly the first time he's played it fast and loose with classified info.

And enough with the damned gestapos already, DHS, TSA, CIA, NSA - all they've ever accomplished is contributing to the destruction of the society they're supposed to be protecting, we cannot win against dictators and madmen by BECOMING them, but rather refusing not only to bow to them, but also refusing to sacrifice what we are because of their actions, you don't break a siege by burning down your own castle, which is what we've mostly done in the past ten years or so.

Drag these jackboot goons out in public and put em on the stand like Church and Pike did (See Also: Church Commission) and let em have it, throw the ones who've really stepped over the line in prison with the rest of those mentioned above, and clean house, then slash the budgets, break their charters and be done with the whole misery.

Will some apologists scream "witch hunt" ?
Sure.
Will there probably be some personal agendas and partisan bickering ?
The nature of the thing assures it, alas.

BUT IT *MUST* BE DONE!

It's like bugbombing for roaches, you either put up with the temporary fallout, stink, and cleanup, or you put up with the roaches forevermore.

None of this pardon shit neither, Ford totally fucked it up by not cleaning house when he had the chance and the american people damn well wanted it cleaned - as they do now.

We cannot waste this second chance, cause we might not get another, we need to not only impeach tweedledumb and tweedledumber, we need to go right on down the list and sink the lot of em, no sweetheart deals, no pardons, no probation, no club fed - hard time in the pen for the lot of em.

Look at the list already, Abramoff, Ney, Foley, on and on it goes, a culture of corruption on BOTH sides of the political fence (That jackass who took the $100,000 bribe too) that's been allowed to fester so very long that at the bottom of it, it gets so damn sick and woo-woo *strange* that it's almost beyond belief, I don't even wanna think about where it'd go from there if unchecked for another decade.

So purge em, and do it now while the complete rampant arrogance of the current administration has pissed off enough joe sixpacks to support it, get the pitchforks and torches and go to town on them while we've got some chance, and some hope to do so - their own actions have stuck their necks out this time, and as stated in the beginning of this thread, it is out RIGHT, and our DUTY, to bring the axe to them and use it.

Otherwise, we're screwed.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

So the way I see it Chris, we got this ONE chance, we may not ever get another, and be damned if I wanna squander it, you see.

For my part, I'm not sure even Ron Paul has the balls to stand and deliver when such action must be taken given the trouble it'll cause in the short term, but I am of the opinion he's the best bet we got, as the rest of the feckless curs are simply more of the same and part and parcel of the established culture of corruption.

Us Americans got four boxes with which to make these arguments, the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.... and the first two have been subverted or failed utterly, and thus we're down to box three.

Does anyone here REALLY want it to HAVE to go to box four ?

Sure, it's unlikely to go that far to hell in MY lifetime, but the hell if I want my nieces to face the future of MY failures.

Time to kick some ass, I say.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
They (terrorists) mostly shot their wad with 911, I suspect.

Al Qaeda just hated the WTC. It obstructed their view of Venus. But after they got rid of that, they were cool.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:36 AM

Re: Twin Towers.

What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.

All we got now is a big hole in the ground and a political sop instead.

I'm also of the mind that all american flagpoles oughta have an extra two feet on em, painted bright silver, and when the enemies of liberty or our nation attempt to cow or threaten us, we should raise old glory HIGHER, in pure american defiance of tyranny - but that's not the course we've taken.

I am NOT afraid of terrorists, to be so is to hand them victory without even a fight.

-F

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
What if we didn't overthrow a democratically elected leader and replace him with a brutal dictator back in 1953 ?

[sarcasm]Why even bring this up, Frem? Do you expect us to learn from our mistakes? You must be mad.[/sarcasm]

Quote:

Impeach em, not just Bush and Cheney, but a full-on purge, clean house of the whole little cabal, Kristol, Rove, Wolfie, Scooter and every single damned one of the madmen who got us into this

I'm for that.

Definitely. Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Re: Twin Towers.

What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.

Whackin' Al-Queda in Afghanistan was good, but why not round them up and make the prisoners work on a rebuild-chain-gang?
Make 'em useful.

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 5:53 AM

Not that it ain't been said before, mind you.

But let's dump the usual politically correct cut and paste editing and post the WHOLE thing here as a reference - rather than the cleaned and clipped american public school history class version.

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope that it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.

This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty towards the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?

For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth -- to know the worst and to provide for it. I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House?

Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation -- the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motives for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies?

No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing.

We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer.

Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament.

Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope.

If we wish to be free -- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending -- if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

I dun think we're that far yet, as stated above, but the sentiment is quite clear.

-F

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Friday, July 6, 2007 6:07 AM

Nice to read again.

Thankful Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 6:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

That was worth all the fireworks. Thanks Frem.

Oh BTW- Wudja hand me a brewski?
Thanks
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 7:58 AM

THERIGHTSTUFFRETURNS

I return to discover this bored has not changed one bit but stayed full of Godless American-haters and theives of the soul! People KILLED Jesus so his rating was low too at one time so President Bushes low ratings are just fine with ME!!!!!!!!!!
All you American citizens that dont celebrate Our Fourth Of july are anti-Americans!!!
You are fools of the Nth degree, and of course will go to the resting place you deserve- HELL, and there suffer your worst nightmares night and day for all eternity, and I will be laughing at you with the Angels!!!
President Bush has stayed true to course in protecting Gods land of ours, and you redicule him endlessly it never stops!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all good at quoting parts from the Constitution where it says to throw out your government when it suits you but not quoting the parts where ir refrences GOD as the reason we exist as a country!!!
The more things change the more YOU idiots remain the same as always!!!!!!!!!!!
I extended my hand to you lost idiots last time and now I just come to gloat!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember all your names too.
I wrote them down and I see some new ones to take.
Pray terrorists dont kill you before you make peace with HIM!!! The LORD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The one that I and President Bush serve!!!!!!!!

TheRightStuffReturns

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Friday, July 6, 2007 8:09 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?

Oh boy, I can just see the new signatures now.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 8:30 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Re: Twin Towers.

What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.

The American thing to do would be to build them again 20 feet higher with AA missiles on the roof.

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Friday, July 6, 2007 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRightStuffReturns:
I return to discover this bored has not changed one bit but stayed full of Godless American-haters and theives of the soul!

How's it hangin' TRSR? Long time no vomit.
'Bored' now? (That's a Buffy refrence, BTW)
I see you're still dictionary-challenged.
(This is too easy....)
Effue, and the Angels you rode in on

And remember; I'm EVIL! I'll swallow your SOUL!

Dead by dawn dead by dawn dead by dawn Chrisisall

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Friday, July 6, 2007 8:32 AM