Quote:

---

Wilson claimed he was sent to Niger via orders of the V.P.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:
So, bottom line. We don't really need silly things like courts and due process. We just ask the decider. Should save some money anyway.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:
So, bottom line. We don't really need silly things like courts and due process. We just ask the decider. Should save some money anyway.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quick question Sarge, are you against the presidents power to pardon or just Bush's?

---

Quote:

---

SergeantX wrote:
Thursday, July 05, 2007 02:00
So, bottom line. We don't really need silly things like courts and due process. We just ask the decider. Should save some money anyway.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

Wilson claimed he was sent to Niger via orders of the V.P.

---

NO, he didn't. And I dare you to find the quote where he did.

---

Quote:

---

The other claims - about the chemical and biological weapons - only really resonated with those who are on the lookout for the black helicopters

---

Quote:

---

Saddam Hussein's regime did not pose a nuclear threat to the United States. This administration claimed they did. Wilson was publically repudiating those claims. In the process of attempting to discredit his message this administration sacrificed Valerie Plame. And they didn't lose a wink of sleep over it. When one of their own was found guilty of obstructing justice and temporarily halting the investigation the President doubled down and engaged in some obstruction of justice of his own.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor- It is one thing to say "the VP ordered me", it is another thing to say "I was told that the VP's office had question". I know how you like to slide one thing into another but really they're different, and they require your "interpretation" to make them conform. I will read statements as I read them, not as YOU think I should read them seeing as your judgement so far has been abysmal.

---

Quote:

---

It was the WILSONS who were engaged in a strategy, not Cheney.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Wilson was ordered to go to Niger by the CIA Directorate of Operations. The Directorate got its marching orders from someone other than Valerie. I don't know where you get this junk from. Why don't you take Soup up on his offer and read the transcript?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

It was the WILSONS who were engaged in a strategy, not Cheney.

---

Wilson was ordered to go to Niger by the CIA Directorate of Operations. The Directorate got its marching orders from someone other than Valerie. I don't know where you get this junk from. Why don't you take Soup up on his offer and read the transcript?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I submit to you Bill Clinton's commutations and pardons.
COMMUTATIONS :
Benjamin Berger
Ronald Henderson Blackley
Bert Wayne Bolan
Gloria Libia Camargo
Charles F. Campbell
David Ronald Chandler
Lau Ching Chin
Donald R. Clark
Loreta De-Ann Coffman
Derrick Curry
Velinda Desalus
Jacob Elbaum
Linda Sue Evans
Loretta Sharon Fish
Antoinette M. Frink
David Goldstein
Gerard A. Greenfield
Jodie E. Israel
Kimberly Johnson
Billy Thornton Langston Jr.
Belinda Lynn Lumpkin
Peter MacDonald - President of the Navajo Nation
Kellie Ann Mann
Peter Ninemire
Hugh Ricardo Padmore
Arnold Paul Prosperi
Melvin J. Reynolds - Democratic Congressman from Illinois - bank fraud and obstruction of justice
Pedro Miguel Riveiro
Dorothy Rivers - lead official in Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, plead guilty to theft of 1.2 million dollars in federal grant money
Susan Rosenberg
Kalmen Stern
Cory Stringfellow
Carlos Anibal Vignali - convicted of cocaine trafficking
Thomas Wilson Waddell III
Harvey Weinig
Kim Allen Willis
Kimba Smith
Antonio Camacho Negron - FALN militant

PARDONS :
Verla Jean Allen (1990 false statements to an agency of the United States)
Nicholas M. Altiere (1983 importation of cocaine)
Bernice Ruth Altschul (1992 money laundering conspiracy)
Joe Anderson Jr. (1988 income tax evasion)
William Sterling Anderson (1987 defraudment of a financial institution, false statements to a financial institution, wire fraud)
Mansour Azizkhani (1984 false statements in bank loan applications)
Cleveland Victor Babin Jr. (1987 using the U.S. mail service to defraud)
Chris Harmon Bagley (1989 conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine)
Scott Lynn Bane (Unlawful distribution of marijuana)
Thomas Cleveland Barber (Issuing worthless checks)
Peggy Ann Bargon (Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act)
David Roscoe Blampied (possess with intent to distribute cocaine)
William Arthur Borders Jr. (Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery)
Arthur David Borel (Odometer Rollback)
Douglas Charles Borel (Odometer Rollback)
George Thomas Brabham (Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank)
Almon Glenn Braswell (1983 mail fraud and perjury)
Leonard Browder (Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud)
David Steven Brown (Securities fraud and mail fraud)
Delores Caroylene Burleson, aka Delores Cox Burleson (Possession of Marijuana)
John H. Bustamante (wire fraud)
Mary Louise Campbell
Eloida Candelaria
Dennis Sobrevinas Capili
Donna Denise Chambers
Douglas Eugene Chapman
Ronald Keith Chapman
Francisco Larois Chavez
Henry Cisneros (former HUD Secretary)
Roger Clinton, Jr. (half-brother of President Bill Clinton)
Stuart Harris Cohn
David Marc Cooper
Ernest Harley Cox Jr.
John F. Cross Jr.
Reickey Lee Cunningham
Richard Anthony De Labio
John Deutch (former Director of Central Intelligence Agency)
Richard Douglas
Edward Reynolds Downe
Marvin Dean Dudley
Larry Lee Duncan
Robert Clinton Fain
Marcos Arcenio Fernandez
Alvarez Ferrouillet
William Dennis Fugazy
Lloyd Reid George
Louis Goldstein
Rubye Lee Gordon
Pincus Green
Robert Ivey Hamner
Samuel Price Handley
Woodie Randolph Handley
Jay Houston Harmon
Rick Hendrick
John Hummingson
David S. Herdlinger
Debi Rae Huckleberry
Warren C. Hultgren Jr.
Donald Ray James
Stanley Pruet Jobe
Ruben H. Johnson
Linda Jones
James Howard Lake
June Louise Lewis
Salim Bonnor Lewis
John Leighton Lodwick
Hildebrando Lopez
Jose Julio Luaces
James Timothy Maness
James Lowell Manning, (1982, aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate income tax return)
John Robert Martin
Frank Ayala Martinez
Silvia Leticia Beltran Martinez
John Francis McCormick
Susan H. McDougal
Howard Mechanic
Brook K. Mitchell Sr.
Samuel Loring Morison
Charles Wilfred Morgan III
Richard Anthony Nazzaro
Charlene Ann Nosenko
Vernon Raymond Obermeier
Miguelina Ogalde
David C. Owen
Robert W. Palmer
Kelli Anne Perhosky
Richard H. Pezzopane
Orville Rex Phillips
Vinson Stewart Poling Jr.
Norman Lyle Prouse
Willie H.H. Pruitt Jr.[1]
Danny Martin Pursley Sr.
Charles D. Ravenel
William Clyde Ray
Alfredo Luna Regalado
Ildefonso Reynes Ricafort
Marc Rich - tax evasion fugitive
Howard Winfield Riddle
Richard Wilson Riley Jr.
Samuel Lee Robbins
Joel Gonzales Rodriguez
Michael James Rogers
Anna Louise Ross
Dan Rostenkowski - Former Democratic Congressman convicted in the Congressional Post Office Scandal
Gerald Glen Rust
Jerri Ann Rust
Bettye June Rutherford
Gregory Lee Sands
Adolph Schwimmer
Albert A. Seretti Jr.
Patricia Campbell Hearst Shaw
Dennis Joseph Smith
Gerald Owen Smith
Stephen A. Smith
Jimmie Lee Speake
Charles Bernard Stewart
Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins
Fife Symington III - former Arizona governor
Richard Lee Tannehill
Nicholas C. Tenaglia
Gary Allen Thomas
Larry Weldon Todd
Olga C. Trevino
Ignatious Vamvouklis
Patricia A. Van De Weerd
Christopher V. Wade
Bill Wayne Warmath
Jack Kenneth Watson
Donna Lynn Webb
Donald William Wells
Robert H. Wendt
Jack L. Williams
Kavin Arthur Williams
Robert Michael Williams
Jimmie Lee Wilson
Thelma Louise Wingate
Mitchell Couey Wood
Warren Stannard Wood
Dewey Worthey
Rick Allen Yale
Joseph A. Yasak
William Stanley Yingling
Phillip David Young
Keith Sanders
Darren Muci
John Scott (not a full pardon)
Anthony M Pilla

---

Quote:

---

Then you say The 'Directorate of Operations' for this case was none other than Val Plame herself.

---

Quote:

---

The idea of Cheney, who is probably the most powerful man in the world, as a victim is quite funny.

---

Quote:

---

The reason why it was so important to Cheney to discredit Ambassador Wilson was because the evidence for Saddam Hussein having a nuclear weapon that he would provide to al Qaeda so they could blow up an American city was crap.

---

Quote:

---

You can continue to defend the casual outting of a CIA operative who was working to protect our country from WMD proliferation. You can continue to defend what should be considered treason. But the people you are defending haven't earned your support.

---

Quote:

---

This administration came into office promising to bring integrity back to the oval office. Instead, they have done everything that the Republicans accused the Clinton administration of doing, and done it to an even worse extent.

---

Quote:

---

It would be laughable if all they were doing was shitting on the carpet. But they're actually tearing down walls and ripping up floorboards and we may never get our system back in the shape it was before they came in through the side door.

---

Quote:

---

Simply put, she's the reason her husband went to Niger, not anyone from the V.P.s office.= Auraptor

---

Quote:

---

You're putting words on screen for me, words I never said.= Auraptor

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/07/obstruction-o
f-.html

In fact, our forefathers gave us clear instructions what to do at a time like this, when a President uses his pardon authority to cover up his own crimes.

Quote:

---

In the same convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection."

James Madison responded: f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty..

---

It doesn't take minutiae to prove that Bush has "sheltered" someone whose crime was "advised by himself." It takes Libby's notes and grand jury testimony.

---

Quote:

---

I cut and pasted your words exactly. They came from this paragraph: The 'Directorate of Operations' for this case was none other than Val Plame herself. How you can't see that is beyond belief. The 'transcripts ' are nothing mnore than the ad hoc attempt by the CIA and the Wilsons to play C-Y-A. Only in this scenario, it didn't work. There was too much external intel that showed Iraq was indeed looking to buy yellow cake iranium.

So, how is it that you "never" said them? Are facts tough to hang onto for you? Auraptor, I have a simple question for you: Did Plame create the mission to NIger or did the mission originate someplace higher in the CIA?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
Auraptor please.... the Iraq war has been in the making since the '98 liberation act during Clintons tenure. the timing was secured to provide the Bush cronies the fodder to hoodwink and swindle the American public for all we were worth, based on untold numerous lies, disinformation and secrecy. why cant you see this? you need to stop defending them as if they arent the most despicable liars and traitors currently holding high offices. CLinton isnt president anymore.. Bush is, so i care about the crimes and injustices currently being committed, more then school grade, partisan apologetics and hypocracy

---

Quote:

---

Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, October 8, 2002

Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to this resolution, which regardless of what many have tried to claim will lead us into war with Iraq. This resolution is not a declaration of war, however, and that is an important point: this resolution transfers the Constitutionally-mandated Congressional authority to declare wars to the executive branch. This resolution tells the president that he alone has the authority to determine when, where, why, and how war will be declared. It merely asks the president to pay us a courtesy call a couple of days after the bombing starts to let us know what is going on. This is exactly what our Founding Fathers cautioned against when crafting our form of government: most had just left behind a monarchy where the power to declare war rested in one individual. It is this they most wished to avoid.

As James Madison wrote in 1798, "The Constitution supposes what the history of all governments demonstrates, that the executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has, accordingly, with studied care, vested the question of war in the legislature."

Some – even some in this body – have claimed that this Constitutional requirement is an anachronism, and that those who insist on following the founding legal document of this country are just being frivolous. I could not disagree more.

Mr. Speaker, for the more than one dozen years I have spent as a federal legislator I have taken a particular interest in foreign affairs and especially the politics of the Middle East. From my seat on the international relations committee I have had the opportunity to review dozens of documents and to sit through numerous hearings and mark-up sessions regarding the issues of both Iraq and international terrorism.

Back in 1997 and 1998 I publicly spoke out against the actions of the Clinton Administration, which I believed was moving us once again toward war with Iraq. I believe the genesis of our current policy was unfortunately being set at that time. Indeed, many of the same voices who then demanded that the Clinton Administration attack Iraq are now demanding that the Bush Administration attack Iraq. It is unfortunate that these individuals are using the tragedy of September 11, 2001 as cover to force their long-standing desire to see an American invasion of Iraq. Despite all of the information to which I have access, I remain very skeptical that the nation of Iraq poses a serious and immanent terrorist threat to the United States. If I were convinced of such a threat I would support going to war, as I did when I supported President Bush by voting to give him both the authority and the necessary funding to fight the war on terror.

Mr. Speaker, consider some of the following claims presented by supporters of this resolution, and contrast them with the following facts:

Claim: Iraq has consistently demonstrated its willingness to use force against the US through its firing on our planes patrolling the UN-established "no-fly zones."

Reality: The "no-fly zones" were never authorized by the United Nations, nor was their 12 year patrol by American and British fighter planes sanctioned by the United Nations. Under UN Security Council Resolution 688 (April, 1991), Iraq's repression of the Kurds and Shi'ites was condemned, but there was no authorization for "no-fly zones," much less airstrikes. The resolution only calls for member states to "contribute to humanitarian relief" in the Kurd and Shi'ite areas. Yet the US and British have been bombing Iraq in the "no-fly zones" for 12 years. While one can only condemn any country firing on our pilots, isn't the real argument whether we should continue to bomb Iraq relentlessly? Just since 1998, some 40,000 sorties have been flown over Iraq.

Claim: Iraq is an international sponsor of terrorism.

Reality: According to the latest edition of the State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq sponsors several minor Palestinian groups, the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). None of these carries out attacks against the United States. As a matter of fact, the MEK (an Iranian organization located in Iraq) has enjoyed broad Congressional support over the years. According to last year's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq has not been involved in terrorist activity against the West since 1993 – the alleged attempt against former President Bush.

Claim: Iraq tried to assassinate President Bush in 1993.

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq was behind the attack. News reports at the time were skeptical about Kuwaiti assertions that the attack was planned by Iraq against former President Bush. Following is an interesting quote from Seymore Hersh's article from Nov. 1993:

Three years ago, during Iraq's six-month occupation of Kuwait, there had been an outcry when a teen-age Kuwaiti girl testified eloquently and effectively before Congress about Iraqi atrocities involving newborn infants. The girl turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to Washington, Sheikh Saud Nasir al-Sabah, and her account of Iraqi soldiers flinging babies out of incubators was challenged as exaggerated both by journalists and by human-rights groups. (Sheikh Saud was subsequently named Minister of Information in Kuwait, and he was the government official in charge of briefing the international press on the alleged assassination attempt against George Bush.) In a second incident, in August of 1991, Kuwait provoked a special session of the United Nations Security Council by claiming that twelve Iraqi vessels, including a speedboat, had been involved in an attempt to assault Bubiyan Island, long-disputed territory that was then under Kuwaiti control. The Security Council eventually concluded that, while the Iraqis had been provocative, there had been no Iraqi military raid, and that the Kuwaiti government knew there hadn't. What did take place was nothing more than a smuggler-versus-smuggler dispute over war booty in a nearby demilitarized zone that had emerged, after the Gulf War, as an illegal marketplace for alcohol, ammunition, and livestock.

This establishes that on several occasions Kuwait has lied about the threat from Iraq. Hersh goes on to point out in the article numerous other times the Kuwaitis lied to the US and the UN about Iraq. Here is another good quote from Hersh:

The President was not alone in his caution. Janet Reno, the Attorney General, also had her doubts. "The A.G. remains skeptical of certain aspects of the case," a senior Justice Department official told me in late July, a month after the bombs were dropped on Baghdad...Two weeks later, what amounted to open warfare broke out among various factions in the government on the issue of who had done what in Kuwait. Someone gave a Boston Globe reporter access to a classified C.I.A. study that was highly skeptical of the Kuwaiti claims of an Iraqi assassination attempt. The study, prepared by the C.I.A.'s Counter Terrorism Center, suggested that Kuwait might have "cooked the books" on the alleged plot in an effort to play up the "continuing Iraqi threat" to Western interests in the Persian Gulf. Neither the Times nor the Post made any significant mention of the Globe dispatch, which had been written by a Washington correspondent named Paul Quinn-Judge, although the story cited specific paragraphs from the C.I.A. assessment. The two major American newspapers had been driven by their sources to the other side of the debate.

At the very least, the case against Iraq for the alleged bomb threat is not conclusive.

Claim: Saddam Hussein will use weapons of mass destruction against us – he has already used them against his own people (the Kurds in 1988 in the village of Halabja).

Reality: It is far from certain that Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds. It may be accepted as conventional wisdom in these times, but back when it was first claimed there was great skepticism. The evidence is far from conclusive. A 1990 study by the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College cast great doubts on the claim that Iraq used chemical weapons on the Kurds. Following are the two gassing incidents as described in the report:

In September 1988, however – a month after the war (between Iran and Iraq) had ended – the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds...throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies – Iran and elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of the operation – according to the U.S. State Department – gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with, there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds – in Turkey where they had gone for asylum – failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee...

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.
Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action.

Claim: Iraq must be attacked because it has ignored UN Security Council resolutions – these resolutions must be backed up by the use of force.

Reality: Iraq is but one of the many countries that have not complied with UN Security Council resolutions. In addition to the dozen or so resolutions currently being violated by Iraq, a conservative estimate reveals that there are an additional 91 Security Council resolutions by countries other than Iraq that are also currently being violated. Adding in older resolutions that were violated would mean easily more than 200 UN Security Council resolutions have been violated with total impunity. Countries currently in violation include: Israel, Turkey, Morocco, Croatia, Armenia, Russia, Sudan, Turkey-controlled Cyprus, India, Pakistan, Indonesia. None of these countries have been threatened with force over their violations.

Claim: Iraq has anthrax and other chemical and biological agents.

Reality: That may be true. However, according to UNSCOM's chief weapons inspector 90–95 percent of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons and capabilities were destroyed by 1998; those that remained have likely degraded in the intervening four years and are likely useless. A 1994 Senate Banking Committee hearing revealed some 74 shipments of deadly chemical and biological agents from the U.S. to Iraq in the 1980s. As one recent press report stated:

One 1986 shipment from the Virginia-based American Type Culture Collection included three strains of anthrax, six strains of the bacteria that make botulinum toxin and three strains of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three...

The CDC, meanwhile, sent shipments of germs to the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission and other agencies involved in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. It sent samples in 1986 of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxoid – used to make vaccines against botulinum toxin – directly to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons complex at al-Muthanna, the records show.

These were sent while the United States was supporting Iraq covertly in its war against Iran. U.S. assistance to Iraq in that war also included covertly-delivered intelligence on Iranian troop movements and other assistance. This is just another example of our policy of interventionism in affairs that do not concern us – and how this interventionism nearly always ends up causing harm to the United States.

Claim: The president claimed last night that: "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles; far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey and other nations in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work."

Reality: Then why is only Israel talking about the need for the U.S. to attack Iraq? None of the other countries seem concerned at all. Also, the fact that some 135,000 Americans in the area are under threat from these alleged missiles just makes the point that it is time to bring our troops home to defend our own country.

Claim: Iraq harbors al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

Reality: The administration has claimed that some Al-Qaeda elements have been present in Northern Iraq. This is territory controlled by the Kurds – who are our allies – and is patrolled by U.S. and British fighter aircraft. Moreover, dozens of countries – including Iran and the United States – are said to have al-Qaeda members on their territory. Of the other terrorists allegedly harbored by Iraq, all are affiliated with Palestinian causes and do not attack the United States.

Claim: President Bush said in his speech on 7 October 2002: " Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. Well, we don't know exactly, and that's the problem..."

Reality: An admission of a lack of information is justification for an attack?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sergeant - That's how you reply when you've run out of false conclusions ? Sad.

---

Quote:

---

the reason " for her husband being sent to Niger isn't by any stretch of the imagination the same thing as saying " she ORDERED " him there. All she had to do was to reccomend to her higher ups that Joe was the man for the job. What we have here are the Wilsons, both opposed to the war in Iraq and willing to do anything to trip up the Bush administration, conspiring together to accomplish their goals. Then, pinning the 'outting' on someone else, close to Bush , only makes the plan all that more appealing. They can publicly debunk one of the minor details for the war in Iraq, and then claim victim status as being part of some heavy handed move on behalf of the office of the V.P.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'd like to hear now from the morons who still support this administration. Care to dance for us?

---

Her name is Ann Coulter, and trust me, you don't want to see her dance, or even talk, eeesh! all those lanky fingers and scrawny legs.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'd like to hear now from the morons who still support this administration. Care to dance for us?

---

I just love being the Devil's advocate, moron that I am. Libby, while spared jail time, must still pay a $250,000 fine, get 2 years probation, and have a criminal record. How can that be equated to skating?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

the reason " for her husband being sent to Niger isn't by any stretch of the imagination the same thing as saying " she ORDERED " him there. All she had to do was to recommend to her higher ups that Joe was the man for the job. What we have here are the Wilsons, both opposed to the war in Iraq and willing to do anything to trip up the Bush administration, conspiring together to accomplish their goals. Then, pinning the 'outing' on someone else, close to Bush , only makes the plan all that more appealing. They can publicly debunk one of the minor details for the war in Iraq, and then claim victim status as being part of some heavy handed move on behalf of the office of the V.P.

---

So, the mission to Niger originated someplace higher up than Valerie. Her role was to "recommend" her husband, and she was high up enough in the food chain where her recommendations carried some weight but not so high up that she could move all the pieces into place by herself. Did the CIA dream up this inquiry on its own as part of a plot to bring Cheney down? Or did a request come from some place outside of the CIA? The reason why I'm asking you to take me though this, step by step is because I don't quite see how this was supposed to work. Are you saying that the Wilsons "outed" Valerie themselves? How did they manage that, when even YOU said that Armitage was the source?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Did the CIA dream up this inquiry on its own as part of a plot to bring Cheney down?

---

Quote:

---

Or did a request come from some place outside of the CIA?

---

Quote:

---

Are you saying that the Wilsons "outed" Valerie themselves? How did they manage that, when even YOU said that Armitage was the source?

---

Quote:

---

I've heard Armitage was the source for Novak, but that there were multiple times when Joe and Val both outed themselves, based on their own actions.

---

Quote:

---

As for the details of how the trip to Niger panned out from inside the CIA, I can't diagram, nor do I think it matters. It didn't come from Cheney's office, as Joe claims it did. That alone is good enough for me.

---

Quote:

---

And no, I don't get a news letter from Rove's office, so don't even try to claim I'm simply parroting his views. It's just common sense, and a dose of reality, that's all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
...And no, I don't get a news letter from Rove's office, so don't even try to claim I'm simply parroting his views. It's just common sense, and a dose of reality, that's all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

So who forged the memo?.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

So who forged the memo?.

---

The answer to that comes from NPR. As I heard it a NY Times reporter was offered the Niger documents by an Italian source. It failed the sniff test so she refused to buy it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
...And no, I don't get a news letter from Rove's office, so don't even try to claim I'm simply parroting his views. It's just common sense, and a dose of reality, that's all.

---

I'll take your word for it. But I'd wager the blogs you're getting this stuff from do. Have you asked them?

SergeantX

---

Quote:

---

rue wrote:
Monday, July 09, 2007 12:51
Immediately after Bush's SOTU speech ("The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa") the Senate convened an inquiry to determine how that phrase got into the speech. It was known at the time that it was in fact a bogus claim.

---