REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Bitter Harvest

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, July 13, 2007 15:14
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Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Initial followup, Re: Gardasil.

Judicial Watch Uncovers Three Deaths Relating to HPV Vaccine

Event Reports Obtained from FDA Detail 1,637 Adverse Reactions to Gardasil

(Washington, DC) -- Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today released documents obtained from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, detailing 1,637 reports of adverse reactions to the vaccination for human papillomavirus (HPV), Gardasil. Three deaths were related to the vaccine. One physician’s assistant reported that a female patient “died of a blood clot three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine.” Two other reports, on girls 12 and 19, reported deaths relating to heart problems and/or blood clotting.

As of May 11, 2007, the 1,637 adverse vaccination reactions reported to the FDA via the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) included 371 serious reactions. Of the 42 women who received the vaccine while pregnant, 18 experienced side effects ranging from spontaneous abortion to fetal abnormities.

Side effects published by Merck & Co. warn the public about potential pain, fever, nausea, dizziness and itching after receiving the vaccine. Indeed, 77% of the adverse reactions reported are typical side effects to vaccinations. But other more serious side effects reported include paralysis, Bells Palsy, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and seizures.

“The FDA adverse event reports on the HPV vaccine read like a catalog of horrors,” stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “Any state or local government now beset by Merck’s lobbying campaigns to mandate this HPV vaccine for young girls ought to take a look at these adverse health reports. It looks as if an unproven vaccine with dangerous side effects is being pushed as a miracle drug.”

Judicial Watch filed its request on May 9, 2007, and received the adverse event reports from the FDA on May 15, 2007. Judicial Watch has posted the adverse event reports below.

(A recent study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, also questioned the general effectiveness of Gardasil.)

Links to the actual PDF files are at the original site here:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_6299.shtml

The FDA allowed Merck to use a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo. A reactive placebo can artificially increase the appearance of safety of an experimental drug or vaccine in a clinical trial. Gardasil contains 225 mcg of aluminum and, although aluminum adjuvants have been used in vaccines for decades, they were never tested for safety in clinical trials. Merck and the FDA did not disclose how much aluminum was in the placebo.

Animal and human studies have shown that aluminum can cause nerve cell death and that vaccine aluminum adjuvants can allow aluminum to enter the brain, as well as cause inflammation at the injection site leading to chronic joint and muscle pain and fatigue.
Nearly 90 percent of Gardasil recipients and 85 percent of aluminum placebo recipients followed-up for safety reported one or more adverse events within 15 days of vaccination, particularly at the injection site. Pain and swelling at injection site occurred in approximately 83 percent of Gardasil and 73 percent of aluminum placebo recipients.
About 60 percent of those who got Gardasil or the aluminum placebo had systemic adverse events including headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, diarrhea, myalgia.
Gardasil recipients had more serious adverse events such as headache, gastroenteritis, appendicitis, pelvic inflammatory disease, asthma, bronchospasm and arthritis.

"Merck and the FDA do not reveal in public documents exactly how many 9 to 15 year old girls were in the clinical trials, how many of them received hepatitis B vaccine and Gardasil simultaneously, and how many of them had serious adverse events after being injected with Gardasil or the aluminum placebo. For example, if there were less than 1,000 little girls actually injected with three doses of Gardasil, it is important to know how many had serious adverse events and how long they were followed for chronic health problems, such as juvenile arthritis."

According to the Merck product manufacturer insert, there was 1 case of juvenile arthritis, 2 cases of rheumatoid arthritis, 5 cases of arthritis, and 1 case of reactive arthritis out of 11,813 Gardasil recipients plus 1 case of lupus and 2 cases of arthritis out of 9,701 participants primarily receiving an aluminum containing placebo. Clinical trial investigators dismissed most of the 102 Gardasil and placebo associated serious adverse events, including 17 deaths, that occurred in the clinical trials as unrelated.

It completely boils me, ain't much point in discussing it here, as experience has shown, but these are just the immediate short-term, obvious side effects - I cringe to think of what any longtime effects might well be.

And I cringe even worse at the idea of allowing Merck to lobby huge amounts of cash into political pockets in exchange for forcing this on kids as a mandatory measure.

How many dead and crippled are we willing to accept for a vaccine that *might* work, maybe, against only a few infectors that *might* cause HPV, which apparently rarely leads to cervical cancer in an of itself.

Try explaining "acceptable losses" to a parent burying her little girl because her school district made this stuff mandatory.

The FDA has clearly failed in thier duty in regards to this, and should be held accountable.

-Frem

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Clarification:

Although I still am of the *personal* opinion they should sent this stuff back entire till they get it right, that isn't what my issue is here.

It's that whole mandatory thing.

If a parent thinks it's worth the risk, has read the relevant disclaimers and fine print and is willing to sign a release - that's fine.

If a parent thinks the risk is too high and doubts it's usefulness or effectiveness, that's also fine.

The line comes when a politician mandates that choice FOR you, without regard to parental rights, or the risks and dangers involved.

Not Safe ?
Not Mandatory!

Sorry for not being clear in the first post, my bad.

-Frem

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Isn't this the same drug which the Gov. of Texas tried to force all girls in the state to be given? I think the issue of individual rights clearly trumps the 'risk' factor here, and that no such mandatory inocculation be forced onto the children.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:31 AM

PENGUIN


I've always felt the whole idea was absurd...a vaccine that "may" treat "some" types of a disease...20 years down the road how the heck do you tell if the disease you have "should" have been treated by the vaccine??

Snake oil...



King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:12 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Having grown up largly unvaccinated, I can say with complete confidence that parents always have a choice. You have to dig and do your research on the options (YES I agree it should be the other way around) but there is always a choice. My mom would claim a religious reason for keeping my body pure, both because it was true and it was easier. But a medical concern can be claimed, if you're willing to deal with the red tape. When I was registered for school and my mom received the card demanding proof of vaccination, she would flip it over, sign her objection to it, and they would have to admit me. I think a doctor's opinion is required for a medical concern against is.
I'll say again, YES I absolutely believe that, instead of having to sign something to keep potential hazards away from your children, you should have to sign something saying you think it's worth the risk. However, since it doesn't work that way, since the drug companies are so huge and so rich and so powerful, since the government is perfectly happy to tell people what's best for them and many people are perfectly happy to listen, those who are concerned should be aware of the ways around the system.
I have not received this vaccine. There are countless others I also haven't received. I won't. No children I may have in the future will. Unless there is an epidemic akin to the polio devestation of so long ago, or there's a strong local possibility of infection. I see no reason to subject a baby, a young child, a teenager, to something that could potentially wreak havoc with their delicate and developing systems. Even as an adult, I shun flu shots and 'boosters' because I've always been able to shake off something simple like a cold or flu without too much trouble, and if the situation was dire and my temperature was dangerously high, there are ways to deal with that. It's never happened. Most years I don't even get sick, and if I do I have a far easier time with that than most people I've seen dealing with complications from a flu shot. I've seen more than one person become ill, feverish, and miserable after getting the 'preventitive' shot.
It's all about weighing risk. What's the possibility that I'll catch something? That it will kill or cripple me if I do? What are the side effects of something meant to prevent an illness? I weigh my choices and find myself more often than not staying home and away from needles (which, as an aside, I have a rather violent aversion to just from my brief encounters with them). Sometimes I get the sniffles. Someties I'm sore and slightly fevered for a couple days. Sometimes I even throw up. Oh ing well. Better than having my body, which I know is sensitive to drugs and treatments, reacting in ways that will leave me miserable or weakened for life.
There is always choice. It's harder to swim against the mainstream, but it's possible.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:26 AM

ANTIMASON


i know someone around here(chrisisall or canttakesky)has made the argument many times that vaccines have the potential to cause more damage then well being; maybe they havent seen the article yet. ive personally always been against the idea of enforced vaccination.. i kind of knee-jerkingly avoid them, out of spite, because of the Orwellian overtones.

i think its interesting that you can opt out by claiming a religious preference, but otherwise are required to get permission by a doctor. why is that? ... i wonder if it has to do with the concept of sovereign rights(under a Creator), rather then 'state' issued (by human beings)

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:45 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i think its interesting that you can opt out by claiming a religious preference, but otherwise are required to get permission by a doctor. why is that?

I think it's because otherwise there are many people who could (and would) claim discrimination, persecution, or other lawsuit-worthy grievances. Same with being told by a medical practitioner that such things are inadvisable and being forced into it anyway. School districts would obviously prefer not to deal with that; they have little enough money as it is.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 10:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i think its interesting that you can opt out by claiming a religious preference, but otherwise are required to get permission by a doctor. why is that? ... i wonder if it has to do with the concept of sovereign rights(under a Creator), rather then 'state' issued (by human beings)


That is interesting. I think it's indicative of the fact that most people don't understand why we have freedom of religion in the first place. It's not because religious folks should have some privileged position in society. It's an extension of the more basic notion that people have the right to think their own thoughts, and to decide for themselves what's good for them and what's not.

Many of the founders were reluctant to include a list of specific rights, like the freedom of religion, in the constitution. They were concerned that making a list, which would inevitably be incomplete, might encourage people to see the list as the only rights guaranteed by government, all others being up for grabs.

Madison made the point that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were already implied by the constitution - the constitution didn't grant the federal government the power to do the sorts of things the Bill of Rights purported to protect against. He worried that listing the rights would inversely imply that the government did have those sorts of powers, powers not expressed in the constitution. It's seems his concerns were well founded.


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 11:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I got a polio shot that was government mandated back in 1958...I've been under the mind control of The Surgeon General ever since....really, you gotta watch out for those Government conspiracies, they'll get you every time...one day it's Polio vaccine shot, next they'll ship you off to a detention center on the Malabar Front....I still wake up with cold sweats in the middle of the night with an irrational compulsion to get a Life Alert...The Big Bad Government is so scary.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:22 PM

ANTIMASON


government exists to serve the people, but the government we have serves itself. do you think youre wise to trust that this government,(unlike its representatives) is benevolent? sounds more foolish to me

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Your government is incompetent and self-serving because the people allow it to be so.

In other words, you can't bitch about how the government serves only itself when the ultimate responsibility for that lies with the voting public.

What you don't realize is that you comment on the people far more than the government.



Just another drive by posting by SigmaNunki.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

http://www.newsoftheverse.net
Searching the 'Verse so you don't have to.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 3:22 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
What you don't realize is that you comment on the people far more than the government.


That's probably the most important point that can be made here. That's why I feel it's so important to talk to people and raise awareness about the proper role of government. It's the apathy and insecurity of everyday voters that drives us toward overbearing government. We can vote Bush and the neo-cons out of office, but if we don't learn any lessons from it, if we fail to acknowledge our implicit support of everything that they did, we're liking to see the same kinds of shenanigans again, probably sooner rather than later.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 6:29 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:


Sigmanunki-Your government is incompetent and self-serving because the people allow it to be so.


i agree. what do you mean by 'my' government though.. do you live somewhere other then the US? if so, please explain why yours is more effective

Quote:
In other words, you can't bitch about how the government serves only itself when the ultimate responsibility for that lies with the voting public.


i can too bitch about it... if no one complained, then the apathetic voters would be sheltered from debate, and continue to vote for bigger government. i vote on principle.. so i fulfill my responsibilities. in the meantime, i can criticize and argue about it all i want, im not the one supporting the stuff

Quote:
What you don't realize is that you comment on the people far more than the government.


thats a good point, and i do realize that... but for the clarity of our discussion, we should refer to our body of elected officials by their proper name. i understand we elect them, and are equally responsible for the outcome, but i also know that a lot of corruption and conspiracy and opportunism takes place behind closed doors, without the knowledge or consent of the public. whether its poisonous vaccines, or faulty war intelligence, we are not immune to diception, and falling victim isnt necessarily our fault(although we are expected to gain wisdom from these experiences)

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 7:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Hard to vote on something they keep secret from ya, Sigma.

Or just DO, without bothering with even the pretense of having a vote on.

Not to mention between voter suppression initiatives, gerrymandering and other less blatant chicanery, the whole process is quickly becoming a mockery.

Folks ARE working on that, Bev Harris comes to mind, amongst others, but as I stated earlier, we're already "down to box three" and I sure as hell would prefer it not come to "box four".

All this hellraising comes to that exact purpose, doesn't it ?

Locally, my political district and the one's close to it tend to be awfuldamnfast with a recall vote when the politicos around here screw up - I forsee another one coming in short order over demanding yet another blank-check budget for a police force that could cover the whole little podunk town with THREE cops and a bicyle...

We oughta have decent provisions for doing that to congressfolk who muff the job too, for damn sure Levin and Conyers would be out of a job in short order, one for selling us out to foreigners and one for being so much of a wuss that his WIFE has had to step up locally and put the arm on him to get him to do his job, grrr.

Start removing the layers of bullshit that protect an entrenched politician from the wrath of his constituency and the problem tends to self correct in short order, believe it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:44 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Not to mention between voter suppression initiatives, gerrymandering and other less blatant chicanery, the whole process is quickly becoming a mockery.



Becoming?


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Hard to vote on something they keep secret from ya, Sigma.

Or just DO, without bothering with even the pretense of having a vote on.



You've missed the point. Everyone knew what Bush was going to do through what he'd /already/ done, and what /he/ /said/ he do /again/. This was no secret. In fact, it was pretty much his entire campaign.

The American people /voted/ in a known issue.


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Start removing the layers of bullshit that protect an entrenched politician from the wrath of his constituency and the problem tends to self correct in short order, believe it.



Definitely agree with this one. But again, just not voting in known issues will do a world of good and this is effective without having to make /any/ changes to the current system.

In all honesty, when it comes to voting for the president, to get to this point, the politician will have a long track record telling of who they are. To ignore this is profound stupidity. Believe /that/.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

http://www.newsoftheverse.net
Searching the 'Verse so you don't have to.

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Sunday, July 8, 2007 9:28 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

i agree. what do you mean by 'my' government though.. do you live somewhere other then the US? if so, please explain why yours is more effective



EDIT: I did reply to this, but have decided to edit it out. I did this because why my gov is more (or less) effective is exactly not the point and is exactly not what is being discussed. My gov has absolutely NOTHING to do with how effective your gov is. So, I deleted it because I have no inclination to get into the inevitable pissing contest about who's country is better. You had me for a little bit, though. Nice try, almost worked.


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

i can too bitch about it... if no one complained, then the apathetic voters would be sheltered from debate, and continue to vote for bigger government. i vote on principle.. so i fulfill my responsibilities. in the meantime, i can criticize and argue about it all i want, im not the one supporting the stuff



Complaining does exactly /nothing/. Since all "you" (seem to) do is complain, people will stop listening b/c that's all "you" do. A great example of this is your democrats. It doesn't matter one little bit that what they are complaining about "needs" to be complained about. People will start to ignore them. Which is good chunk of the reason why Bush won.

This is also why complaining will _not_ get people into the debate. All complaining will do is back people against the wall and turn them off. They'll just dig in and not be willing to see another side b/c they've become very defensive. That's human nature. A great example of this is the "debate" in your country. Just look how polarized the entire thing is and how it resembles a screaming match with no-one actually listening *far* more than people actually debating.

Btw, your responsibilities when things are going down the shitter (as they are now) is more than just voting. What must be done is actually doing something. There are several initiatives about that you could join. I imagine that they have lots of stuff that a volunteer could do.

In other words, you don't get a free pass to bitch about everything because you took a /small/ amount of time, one evening, every FOUR YEARS to vote. You actually got to do something. Sure, you /can/ /just/ bitch, but it is exactly meaningless if you don't get off your ass from time to time to actually make your voice heard. After all, how are your representatives going to know what you want if you don't tell them? A silent voice is a voice of approval to a politician.

I contact my representative regarding several different things that are near and dear to me. How about you?

Also, you /are/ supporting this stuff. You are after all paying taxes, right? If not I'd really recommend that you start as I hear that they IRS isn't terribly pleasant.


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

but i also know that a lot of corruption and conspiracy and opportunism takes place behind closed doors, without the knowledge or consent of the public.



This happens in every government to one degree or another. It's nothing new, and will never stop. The only thing that can be done is to minimize it.

Bush pardoned that guy, right? Why don't I see people with petitions, etc again?


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

whether its poisonous vaccines



This is a problem with the incompetence that is your FDA. They trust *way* too much the corps decisions and results.

There is a reason why it takes several more /years/ to approve drugs here than in your country. Basically, we actually test the drugs.


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

or faulty war intelligence



Well, you guys /can/ and /should/ be blamed for this one as it was no secret and basically the rest of the world new it from the get go. So, why you guys didn't is beyond me. The info was freely available even at the time.


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

we are not immune to diception, and falling victim isnt necessarily our fault (although we are expected to gain wisdom from these experiences)


Neither is anyone else. But, one /can/ and /should/ be blamed when deception is the result of simply not using ones brain. Which "you" clearly didn't b/c Bush got in again. So, "your" fault as no wisdom gained there.

And this is where the post ends, probably prematurely, because I really really really need sleep.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

http://www.newsoftheverse.net
Searching the 'Verse so you don't have to.

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Monday, July 9, 2007 7:52 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i know someone around here(chrisisall or canttakesky)has made the argument many times that vaccines have the potential to cause more damage then well being; maybe they havent seen the article yet.

No surprises here.
BTW, Since age 10, I've not had puss-hitchin' dead virius crap injected directly into my bloodstream, and guess what? Never caught anything. And I worked in Manhattan for five years. If I was gonna get something, there would be it- a hub for world-virius transmission. Just don't lick the sidewalk or share needles or take a deep breath as someone near you coughs, and more likely n' not you'll make it through.

Make the white cells God gave ya strong with good nutrition Chrisisall

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Monday, July 9, 2007 8:07 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Make the white cells God gave ya strong with good nutrition Chrisisall

Don't forget not weakening them with a lot of dead virius crap injected directly into the bloodstream for them to deal with all at once.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Monday, July 9, 2007 8:21 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Don't forget not weakening them with a lot of dead virius crap injected directly into the bloodstream for them to deal with all at once.

That too, definitely.

Like all things though, I'm sure some vaccines have their place- the polio one for example. But to me, it's an emergency measure when confronted by a known danger, not a condom for living in.

Chrisisall, PhDuh

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Monday, July 9, 2007 9:46 AM

JONGSSTRAW



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Monday, July 9, 2007 11:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


JONGSSTRAW

"All the un-imagineable blunders, and pathetic circus-show events that have become our norm now, seeming to have totally changed and screwed up America will pale into comparison when Cindy Sheehan runs against Pelosi next year; that is unless Nancy brings up impeachment against Bush in 2 weeks as demanded by Citizen Cindy."

Is there a comment about vaccines anywhere in here ? Or do you belong to the "bash anyone but Bush" crowd, festering with so much hate it splats everywhere ... ??? Hhhhhmmmm ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, July 9, 2007 11:43 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm happy to see people are making vaccine exceptions for diseases like polio.

This particular vaccine was not on my 'to do' list for anyone - partly b/c it came out of the emasculated, industry-friendly FDA. But maybe friendly is to weak of a word.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, July 9, 2007 11:55 AM

JONGSSTRAW



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Monday, July 9, 2007 12:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Since your post was a partisan diatribe and had nothing to do with the topic - not even peripherally - it stood out.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, July 9, 2007 1:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm happy to see people are making vaccine exceptions for diseases like polio.

Gotta have balance

Reasonable Chrisisall

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Monday, July 9, 2007 1:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Yeah, it's all about risk v benefit. You have to be able to make a reasonable judgment and not panic in either direction.

But the latest vaccine - - man, as a product of mega-industry and accomplice-government, it's giving medicine and vaccines a bad name.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, July 9, 2007 2:12 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yeah, it's all about risk v benefit. You have to be able to make a reasonable judgment and not panic in either direction.

That's what I said! Only, you know, not as succinctly.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Monday, July 9, 2007 2:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh, sorry then.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, July 9, 2007 2:17 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


LOL don't be. I seriously doubt anyone read through my whole post. Not venturing down here very often and posting even less, I feel the need to defend what I say before anyone has the chance to put spin on it, so I sometimes go on. Plus, you know, I was agreeing with ya :)


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Monday, July 9, 2007 2:18 PM

CHRISISALL


GENTLEMEN! WE CANNOT ALLOW A VACCINE GAP!!!

Turginsonisall

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Monday, July 9, 2007 2:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Glad to see a reasonable discussion on this topic around here, quite a pleasant surprise in fact.

Nice to see you too, PR.. RWED can be a rough place, but i'm always happy to see ya, this world gets a little closed at times, and fresh ideas and opinions should always be welcome.

Anyone else gettin annoyed at Jongstraw yankin posts after makin em ?
Cause it's really damn disruptive to the thread of conversation, specially after folks have replied.

Anyhows, topic at hand - I think we need to remove all external funding from the FDA if we're ever to get them to do the job, it's one use of my tax dollars I don't mind so much, but only if the process cannot be influanced by big pharma corps.

It's not like it would cost a lot more, given the financial mess of cleaning up after bad medicines they never should have approved in the first place, and how much of that comes out of our pockets.

We should also, as mentioned elsewhere, open the door a little for alternatives, with the additional step of signing a waiver/disclaimer stating that such and such medication/process has not undergone the FDA approval process and thus only the manufacturer can be held responsible in case of... yadda yadda.

It's not really a huge step, but it'd make a difference - and it's a start to breaking the big pharma stranglehold on conventional medicine as well.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, July 9, 2007 3:03 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'd also go along with the idea that the US cooperate with Canadian and German agencies b/c they are well ahead of the US in that regard.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA


This may sound a bit callous, but I daresay the Chinese might have the right idea, here.

China executes ex-food and drug chief
By ALEXA OLESEN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 39 minutes ago

China executed the former head of its food and drug watchdog on Tuesday for approving untested medicine in exchange for cash, the strongest signal yet from Beijing that it is serious about tackling its product safety crisis.

The execution of former State Food and Drug Administration director Zheng Xiaoyu was confirmed by state television and the official Xinhua News Agency.

During Zheng's tenure from 1998 to 2005, his agency approved six medicines that turned out to be fake, and the drug-makers used falsified documents to apply for approvals, according to previous state media reports. One antibiotic caused the deaths of at least 10 people.

"The few corrupt officials of the SFDA are the shame of the whole system and their scandals have revealed some very serious problems," agency spokeswoman Yan Jiangying said at a news conference held to highlight efforts to improve China's track record on food and drug safety.

Yan was asked to comment on Zheng's sentence and that of his subordinate, Cao Wenzhuang, a former director of SFDA's drug registration department who was last week sentenced to death for accepting bribes and dereliction of duty. Cao was given a two-year reprieve, a ruling which is usually commuted to life in prison if the convict is deemed to have reformed.

"We should seriously reflect and learn lessons from these cases. We should step up our efforts to ensure food and drug safety, which is what we are doing now and what we will do in the future," Yan said.

Zheng, 63, was convicted of taking cash and gifts worth $832,000 when he was in charge of the State Food and Drug Administration.

His death sentence was unusually heavy even for China, believed to carry out more court-ordered executions than all other nations combined, and indicates the leadership's determination to confront the country's dire product safety record.

Fears abroad over Chinese-made products were sparked last year by the deaths of dozens of people in Panama who took medicine contaminated with diethylene glycol imported from China. It was passed off as harmless glycerin.

Yan said she did not have any information about whether the Chinese manufacturer, Taixing Glycerin Factory, and the Chinese distributor, CNSC Fortune Way, had been punished.

"We will try to get more information from the department concerned and we will release it to you," Yan said. She wouldn't elaborate.

China admitted last month that it was the source of the deadly chemical that ended up in cough syrup and other treatments but insists the chemical was originally labeled as for industrial use only. Beijing blames the Panama traders who eventually bought the shipment for fraudulently relabeling it as medical-grade glycerin.

In North America earlier this year, pet food containing Chinese wheat gluten tainted with the chemical melamine was blamed for the deaths of dogs and cats.

Since then, U.S. authorities have turned away or recalled toxic fish, juice containing unsafe color additives and popular toy trains decorated with lead paint.

Yan said the food and drug administration was working to tighten its safety procedures and create a more transparent operating environment. The administration has already announced a series of measures to tighten safety controls and closed factories where illegal chemicals or other problems were found.

But Yan acknowledged that her agency's supervision of food and drug safety remains unsatisfactory and that it has been slow to tackle the problem.

"China is a developing country and our supervision of food and drugs started quite late and our foundation for this work is weak, so we are not optimistic about the current food and drug safety situation," Yan said.

Chinese officials have already said the country faces social unrest and a further tarnished image abroad unless it improves the quality and safety of its food and medicine.

The government has faced increasing pressure from its international trading partners to improve quality controls after a series of health scares attributed to substandard or tainted Chinese food and drug exports.

The list of food scares within China over the past year includes drug-tainted fish, banned Sudan dye used to color egg yolks red, and pork tainted with clenbuterol, a banned feed additive.

China has also stepped up its inspections of imported products and said some U.S. products are not safe.

In the latest case, the official Xinhua News Agency reported Tuesday that a shipment of sugar-free drink mix from the United States had been rejected for having too much red dye.

Last week, China's food safety watchdog said almost 20 percent of products made for consumption within China were found to be substandard in the first half of 2007. Canned and preserved fruit and dried fish were the most problematic, primarily because of excessive bacteria and additives, the agency said.

URL - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_as/
china_tainted_products&printer=1;_ylt=Ageuot.2tiDgnC8yf_ekgTz9xg8F
(spaced to avoid screen stretch)

I wouldn't mind seeing some of those FDA jerks who approved bad drugs from companies they also happened to be serving on the board of, or working for - swingin from a rope.
What else can you really call it, but Negligent Homicide ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 7:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The nasty part of me says

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


But... but... but... Fletch2 says that counterfeit products are very bit as good as the real stuff! OH NO. I feel my faith in the capitalist system crumbling....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 9:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Sadly, the only reason why anyone cares is because it's China. If US companies were to, say rig power production to defraud US citizens of tens of billions of dollars, or perhaps profiteer on war for hundreds of billions - you'd get a big thumbs-up for good capitalist business.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:35 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But... but... but... Fletch2 says that counterfeit products are very bit as good as the real stuff! OH NO. I feel my faith in the capitalist system crumbling....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.





I refer you to my previous statement. Given your tendency to misrepresent arguments, quote out of context and assign positions to people that they haven't actually said (see above) I am no longer willing to enter into discusions with you.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Meh, Siggy, just go back and look at any of my comments in regards to free market/capitalism in discussion with such folk - it all falls apart immediately when someone mentions customer retaliation for being defrauded or mistreated, something inherent in a true free market system, something that most capitalistas emphatically do not want to be allowed to happen.

Whenever they say "Free Market" just read it as "Government Protected Monopoly(Mine)" and it'll present itself a bit clearer to you.

In essence they're saying "Free Market for ME, not those pesky competitors" as they start clinging to stuff like regulations and IP rights to protect them from actual competition, yanno.

In a true free market system however, instead of a government execution this likely woulda been a public lynching, but yanno... the end result this time is quite the same.

Imagine what woulda happened to Enron's execs ?
The capitalistas only want a "Free Market" up to the point of facing consquences for their actions, then they scuttle right back to the Gov to hide behind.

That's a harsh way to say it, but it is in essence, true.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I refer you to my previous statement. Given your tendency to misrepresent arguments, quote out of context and assign positions to people that they haven't actually said (see above) I am no longer willing to enter into discusions with you.
I was joking. It was a mild poke in the ribs! Jeez!

But fortunately, the fact that you don't want me to talk "to" you doesn't mean I can't talk "about" you. Now, more than ever.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:29 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

But fortunately, the fact that you don't want me to talk "to" you doesn't mean I can't talk "about" you. Now, more than ever.


True -- you can use the tactic of liars, propagandists and cowards but then you were doing that anyway.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Fletch,

In this case, I think people can always go back and check the truth for themselves. For example I DID go back, and yes, you claimed at various times that people who made goods (in this case sneakers) could get the exact ones at a discount, or if not the exact same sneakers ones where the quality was just as good, that there were no such things as counterfeits, but if there were the quality would be the same ... you wiggled all over the place on that one.

The fact is, you did say those things. Here's an actual quote (one of many I saved)

Fletch2:
"No they are real. If you examine the goods you will find them to be of the same quality so if they are not the real deal then the counterfeit is equivalent."

SignyM:
But... but... but... Fletch2 says that counterfeit products are very bit as good as the real stuff! OH NO. I feel my faith in the capitalist system crumbling....


Fletch2:
Given your tendency to misrepresent arguments, quote out of context and assign positions to people that they haven't actually said (see above)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Wow! Talk about humorless! I thought it was funny anyway.
Quote:
True -- you can use the tactic of liars, propagandists and cowards but then you were doing that anyway.
I was? Show me where. As I recall, in the last thread I laid out a rather comprehensive statement of my views on economics... which you kept naggin me for... and you didn't respond. I suspect you don't even recognize basic macroeconomics when you it's summarized for you, so you decided to attack instead of discuss.

Well when you decide you'd rather discuss I'd be happy to exchange views.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:35 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Fletch,

In this case, I think people can always go back and check the truth for themselves. For example I DID go back, and yes, you claimed at various times that people who made goods (in this case sneakers) could get the exact ones at a discount, or if not the exact same sneakers ones where the quality was just as good, that there were no such things as counterfeits, but if there were the quality would be the same ... you wiggled all over the place on that one.

The fact is, you did say those things. Here's an actual quote (one of many I saved)

Fletch2:
"No they are real. If you examine the goods you will find them to be of the same quality so if they are not the real deal then the counterfeit is equivalent."

SignyM:
But... but... but... Fletch2 says that counterfeit products are very bit as good as the real stuff! OH NO. I feel my faith in the capitalist system crumbling....


Fletch2:
Given your tendency to misrepresent arguments, quote out of context and assign positions to people that they haven't actually said (see above)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."


Right.... sneakers and fake drugs being the same thing and all.

In the context in which it was stated (which can be determined as you say) I was trying to show that there isn't such a thing as sneakers that are intrinsically worth $200. That shoes are shoes are shoes if they are functionally equivalent.

Are you REALLY claiming that fake drugs and real ones are functionally equivalent? If not you just misrepresented my argument.


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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I know you're not talking to me, but you raise an interesting question: Are there PILLS intrinsically worth $200?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Fletch, my ORIGINAL argument was that the luxury car worker could only afford the economy car ... etc. Perhaps you remember it. You responded in a very general way with this:

"In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles."

This was a general argument that you applied to the entire sequence: cars, motorcycles, bicycles and ... sneakers. I'm not extending your argument out of context.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:59 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


It's too bad Fletch isn't talking to you. You have interesting things to say.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I know you're not talking to me, but you raise an interesting question: Are there PILLS intrinsically worth $200?
And the answer is - no.

Added:
I can think of some things that would have intrinsically high value. For example when Mme Curie spent years isolating radium and polonium, the small amounts isolated for research meant that they were intrinsically very valuable. ("Because of the low concentration of these newly discovered elements, it required approximately one ton of the pitchblende to produce 0.1 gram of the salt. Much of the work was done as the subject of Mme. Curie's doctoral thesis in Physics in 1898.")

The people I know who got their doctorates from isolating or synthesizing new compounds, enzymes etc often spent years generating milligram quantitites.

But these kinds of valuable things are found in reserach labs, not on the market.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:18 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
It's too bad Fletch isn't talking to you. You have interesting things to say.......


No wet kissing in a public forum.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But ass-f*cking is allowed ? You seem to think so.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:22 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Fletch, my ORIGINAL argument was that the luxury car worker could only afford the economy car ... etc. Perhaps you remember it. You responded in a very general way with this:

"In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles."

This was a general argument that you applied to the entire sequence: cars, motorcycles, bicycles and ... sneakers. I'm not extending your argument out of context.



No I didn't that is at best YOUR interpretation. Do you think that fake drugs (and by this we mean poison since that's the interpreation YOU chose to give it) are functionally equivalent to real ones? If yes then you're just a fool, if no then you are misrepresenting me.

Which is it? Yes or no?



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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Fletch -

You made very general economic arguments. We talked abour cars, motorcycles, bicycles, shoes - and lipstick, steel, deodorant and food, even antimalarials. It was a general discussion not specific to one product, like sneakers. I'm sorry that you can't stand by your own words. But they are in this thread http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29217 for anyone to read.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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