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But at a profit margin of around 9% , they're doing far better than many other industries.

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Every March-to-May, there's a cluster or rash of "incidents" resulting in astonishingly little harm or damage, and a nice fat price spike - every single year.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I mean, surely the CIA has cut off their funding by NOW?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Really? I thought the Left was dangerous because they extrapolate from one word uttered by one person with connections to the American Left (which by no means constitutes THE left), into being indicative of 'the Left', and thus everyone who can be identified as having left leaning politics, as being dangerous.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Does America even have a political "left" as we understand it in European politics?

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Pretty much like the Las Vegas and Snohomish power plants that were specifically taken offline during a critical energy shortage to allow Enron to jack up energy futures through the roof.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
FINN: I have been accused of being an "attention whore" because I ask questions.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
ETA It sounds to me like YOUR definition of patriotism is a convenient way to forestall criticism of specific administrations. ANY administration is subject to criticism, and the more they fuck up, the more criticism they should get.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
ETA I don't know of ANY liberals who go around saying "I want my country to be a failure." I want my country to be a success. To me that means a transparent government, self-reliant production and energy, the availability of a decent-paying job for everyone who wants to work, safety from foreign enemies, and environmental stewardship so that generations of Americans after us can continue to prosper. It does NOT mean rampant corporatism. And I don't think we need to sacrifice our ideals in order to meet these goals.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And once again you correlate your opinion about how America could be successful with the desire for American success and therefore continue to confuse patriotism with politics. Patriotism is not qualified by a political agenda it is independent of it. You either want America to be successful or you don’t, and then you decide how to go about it. A person can believe that American success hinges on not going to war with Iraq, but once involved in such a war, a patriotic person does not wish for an American defeat to validity their political positions. There is a danger with entwining patriotism with politics. I think some people end up supporting causes they later regret or routing for the US to fail, because they end up confusing their love for their country with their political opinion on policy.

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Originally posted by citizen:
and thus everyone who can be identified as having left leaning politics, as being dangerous

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Originally posted by citizen:
Wanting to leave Iraq would not necessarrily be unpatriotic to America, but would be viewed by some as a defeat.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
The 'left' is so dangerous because those who claim to represent the 'right' (neo-cons) have traded in the virtues of conservatism in exchange for power. In doing so, they've given liberals the ammunition they need to tear down the last vestiges of freedom. Nice going assholes!

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Many others imply it by supporting positions they know would lead to an American failure

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And once again you correlate your opinion about how America could be successful with the desire for American success and therefore continue to confuse patriotism with politics.

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Patriotism is not qualified by a political agenda it is independent of it. You either want America to be successful or you don’t, and then you decide how to go about it. A person can believe that American success hinges on not going to war with Iraq, but once involved in such a war, a patriotic person does not wish for an American defeat to validity their political positions. There is a danger with entwining patriotism with politics. I think some people end up supporting causes they later regret or routing for the US to fail, because they end up confusing their love for their country with their political opinion on policy.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You know I've never thought we should have been there in the first place Cit. I hated on Bush before it was the cool thing to do.

I don't feel one little bit less patriotic for it either.

And when we do finally bring our kids home from the unwinnable "war", it won't be America that lost, but the Evil Administration which decieved the entire world. The faster we get this behind us the better, I say.

God Bless America.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Citizen, my German consists of two semesters at univerity 35 years ago. What did you just say????

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Citizen, my German consists of two semesters at univerity 35 years ago. What did you just say????

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By Cit:
Just some crazy stuffs.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
He reposted my post in German, and I must say, I don't think he put it in Babel Fish either. Either he has a much better translator, or he has a fine grasp on two languages.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Actually it was Babel Fish, most of my german is limited to basic conversation picked up from my time working for the Man in Germany.

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Sargeantx-
The 'left' is so dangerous because those who claim to represent the 'right' (neo-cons) have traded in the virtues of conservatism in exchange for power. In doing so, they've given liberals the ammunition they need to tear down the last vestiges of freedom. Nice going assholes!

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
Ayup

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Originally posted by antimason:
"Antimason's Entire Post as opposed to Sarges'

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Ya don't say....

Babel must do a much better job translating from English to German than vice versa...

(Try putting that German back into English now.)

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Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Was ist mit dem deutschen Herrn douche beutel?

You know? You're right. English is so passe. You're just too cool for school Cit.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, I have this weird feeling that we're going to keep going round and round unless we find the nub of our discrepancy. You keep using the word "patriotism" to mean something that I'm just not getting, altho I'm trying.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Then you say that attacking the "government" is unpatriotic.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't find anything is this definition that contradicts my definition of patriotism. If you think that your definition of patriotism los matches this decription then we are clearly reading different things from the same document.

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Originally posted by Veteran:
Finn,

Your point, that a major change in philosopy may be dangerous to our liberty and econcomy is a good one. However, there's a good case that this administration is the cause of just such a change.

For instance, the appointment of Judge Alito and Chief Justice Roberts pushed the Supreme Court further to the right and more likely to support the postions against abortion while supporting big business, and the "unitary executive" interpretation of the constitution.

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Originally posted by antimason:
conservatism used to be a strict adherence to the constitution, but i think the precedent set under president Wilson and the 'new deal', forever compromised the competitiveness of the message of consistutional liberty, and ushered in a new era of liberal politics.

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Originally posted by rue:
Did I do it again ... miss a joke by thinking it was serious ? My only excuse is that some pepole say that stuff and mean it - it's so hard to tell the ironic from scary but sincere sometimes.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m using the word patriotism exactly as the dictionary suggests it should be used. If you don’t get it, I don’t know what I can do about that. It means love for one’s country, not love for one’s country, as long as its government leans to the Left.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You're definition of Patriotism seems to suggest that you'd have to want any action taken by the government to succeed, or you are unpatriotic, even if those actions are detrimental to the country, and it's ideals.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t see how anything I’ve said suggests that.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t see how anything I’ve said suggests that.

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It seems, to me, that you are equating 'government' with 'country', and assuming that patriotism is therefore the desire for the government to succeed.

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I’m not equating government with country though. In fact, I’ve stated that they are different things.

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And if you do, you’ll find that my interpretation of patriotism as a love for one’s country is a far more consistent with that definition then your description as attacking the government.

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I’m using the word patriotism exactly as the dictionary suggests it should be used. If you don’t get it, I don’t know what I can do about that. It means love for one’s country, not love for one’s country, as long as its government leans to the Left.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If you had said Patriotism is love for one's country, not attacking one's country that would have made logical sense. But what you did was use the words "country" and "government" in an equivalent sense. So my question remains, although I've asked it several times in several guises:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Under what circumstances might love of country conflict with support of government? What happens in the instance you posed where you love your country but the government is an oppressive tyranny? What would patriotism look like in such an instance?.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
AFA Republicanism and patriotism, you said
It’s probably better described as republicanism. I assumed that you meant Patriotism is probably better described as republicanism but perhaps that's not what you meant.

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No what I did was point out how YOU are using the government and country in an equivalent sense.

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Under what circumstances might love of country conflict with support of government? What happens in the instance you posed where you love your country but the government is an oppressive tyranny? What would patriotism look like in such an instance?.=SIGNY

Let’s hope we never have to find out.= FINN

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not equating government with country though. In fact, I’ve stated that they are different things.

Actually, your argument would better explain signym position. It is signym that is trying to equate government with country. Signym is trying to correlate his particular theory and opinion of how the government should work with love for your country.

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