This Seems Strangely Orwellian to Me by 6ixStringJack

Dude, Osama's dead - he's been dead since approx December 2001 of kidney failure.

The current admin is using him as a modern day emmanuel goldstein, so they're unwilling to admit it.

And yes, he did deny any involvement, and I did point that out, only to be shouted down by resident apologists.

Most of the tapes have been either fairly blatant fakes (I just can't see Osama puttin on a gold band and using grecian formula..) or translated by MEMRI, who have their own agenda, as witnessed with such bullshit as the recent "wiped off the map" shoveljob concerning statements by the Iranian Prez.

That all bein said, I wouldn't buy anythin Osama's sellin either, cause he's generally as fulla shit as our own leaders - the denial rings true tho, cause he'd sure as HELL be takin credit for it if he did it, cause that was his nature.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, July 13, 2007 7:54 PM

SERGEANTX

Sorry guys, I gotta call bullshit on this one. I was paying attention to this stuff when it came out. If anything it seems like a sick joke on his part. "They must have done it for 'personal' reasons".?? To me it wasn't a denial that was meant to be believed in the first place. Seriously, there's too much crap going on out in the open to be chasing down stuff like this.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, July 13, 2007 8:45 PM

I didn't chase it down though. It was posted on Digg.com frontpage where there is so much Bush hatered out there that they're pulling all the stops.

I fracking hate the man too, but anything I ever read or heard about this after the fact was THEY DID IT AND THEY'RE PROUD! There's plenty of stuff to hate on Bush for. I don't have to go diggin anywhere.

I don't think I was clear on my point here. I'm not arguing anything either of you guys had to say here at all. My only point was that this is legitemetely in the CNN "archives" right now, and I'm not at all confident that this article was ever really put out in the first place. It certainly was a viewpoint that got zero spotlight if it really was printed.

The whole thing just reminded me of something Winston would have written today at the Ministry of Truth is all.

EDIT: The fact that it's against Bush is all the more scary to me.......

Most folk been blaming his administration for all of the lies and woes and corruption in our government today. Wonder how many stories like these they can get away with before the sheep wake up and relize that the Demons are just as capable and good at deception.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, July 13, 2007 9:36 PM

Bin Laden isn't Professor Moriarty. Despite the way that the US media likes to paint him he was not some kind of criminal genius, running by direct command some James-Bondian evil empire. In fact most folks that have studied him (including Ron Paul from the quotes posted here) understand that the biggest thing he brings to Al Q is not tactical planning but charismatic leadership.

Consequently I think 9/11 probably went 1000 times better than he could have ever dreamed of. Instead of the large loss of life they expected the result was a massive deathtoll, instead of damaged buildings they were destroyed. I think the result scared even him.

Scared him not because he thought we would be mad at him, the American response would have probably been of the same order had the hijackings failed, no such a massive loss of life risked a backlash from others in the middle east that would otherwise have given him support. If it looked like the Arab street, was appauled by the carnage in New York, if Arab governments and media had reacted violently against it, bin Laden's organisation could have been in trouble.

In short it is possible to be too successfull.

So, in the days after the attack he was uncommital wanting to see how the news played out in his back yard. If the people cheering in the streets were the clear majority then he would admit the attack early, if the backlash happened they would say nothing. In the interim he played wait and see.

We've seen similar things in Northern Ireland. If the attack was relatively small or if most of the damage centered against things the IRA viewed as legitimate targets the boys tended to be quick to claim responsability. However, if things went too well, if the death toll was too large or many children were injured we could go for days without anyone officially admitting responsability.

After 9/11 the folks that supported Bin Laden danced in the streets and were happy to give him credit even without his official say so. However, a lot of the Arab street, the kinds of folks that would be appauled by the carnage simply refused to believe Muslims were responsable, believing the US did it themselves or that it was Mossad. Bin Laden was happy with that status quo.

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Sunday, July 15, 2007 10:28 PM

Very interesting thought, about how he could have been TOO successful. Seems very plausable...

Did you see this story, or similar stories like this in September or November of 2001 though? I didn't. Everything I ever read or heard about this is that Al Queda admitted to this, and Bin Laden was the proud leader of the organization which brought 911 to us.

Was it only me, or did Bin Laden look just like Scottie Pippen from the Chicago Bulls back in the Bulls "Dynasty" days? I always thought they just took pics of Scottie and gave them the Photoshop treatment.

Here's a post I made about it on my blog about two years ago.....

I Know Where Bin Laden Is Hiding

More accurately, it should be said that, believe it or not, Osama isn't even a real person. Insider images acquired earlier today show exactly how the war on terror had begun, with the use of Adobe Photoshop in the basement of Annette Peterson's, a widow from the small town of Deary, Idaho. For years she thought her son wouldn't amount to anything. "He never goes anywhere, he doesn't have any friends.... He's 29 years old and I still do his laundry. All he does all day is play that damn Nintendo or sit in front of that computer screen all day long," said an obdviously frusterated mother of yet another lazy Generation Xer who she says can bareley wipe his own ass whithout complaining that the entire act of wiping ones ass is a conspiracy planned by Charmin to have a never ending stream of consumers to buy their products that we simply throw away after one use. "I never thought he'd amount to anything, but look at my boy now... The Father of the War on Terror. I'm so proud." Tears of joy flooded down her face at the revelation that it was indeed her boy who had created the pictures we've seen for years in newspapers and magazines. Using the popular photo manipulation softare Photoshop from Adobe, Antony Peterson was able to make these horiffic images come to life using nothing but his mouse pointer and some pictures of Scottie Pippen from the Chicago Bulls Dynasty. [see inset]

An example of Antony Peterson's (The Father of the War on Terror) work.

Calls from Scottie Pippen on the revelation were unanswered as we were told that Scottie was out of the office, continuing is neverending quest to prove that the Bulls would have been just as great all those years even if he wasn't living in Michael Jordan's shadow.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, July 16, 2007 4:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Did you see this story, or similar stories like this in September or November of 2001 though?

I did. I remember hearing that Bin Laden had denied responsibily, and I remember talk of the calls from the plane that went down in PA which made the official story a bit suspect. Not that I was or am ready to buy in to that, but the discussions were dismissed and ignored by our country's mob mentality. Nothing would heard but the official line, and nothing could be done but bloody revenge.

Gotta say, I never bought in to W. In 2000, I tried to think positive and hope he'd do minimal damage. The fact that so many sheep continued to support him and voted for him in 2004 proves one thing - we deserve him. As a country, we're sooo stupid.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, July 16, 2007 5:04 AM

Mal...

I wish I could say the same, my friend. I supported bush much longer than I should have. But as soon as we were invading Iraq, I started having visions of the reason we left Sadam alive the first time is so we'd have a familiar enemy to hunt down this time. He was practically Wily Coyote at this point. Probably more well known, worldwide, at the time. Such an easy target. I have my deepley seeded reasons why we're really over there, but none of them have ever been said on the news, let alone much amongst the proles. Most of the Proletariat choose to side with the Demons as a way of protesting where we're at today which is an understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. If we have a Hilary or Obama in office, we're completley f

..... considering they own the other two seats.

I honestly think, our only choice at this point is Ron Paul. He's the only rational voice of freedom our Government has heard for a long time. The soccer moms and everybody on welfare (especially illegals) are never going to go for it though. I'm afraid that it can only get worse.... Demons are no solution to the NeoCon problem. In the end, they both have the same agenda, just a different means to get there.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, July 16, 2007 5:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rue rather persistently says the whole ObL+ 9-11 link was pretty fishy. Something about papers conveniently found in a (Tora Bora?) cave years after the Admin had announced that ObL was the perp. In fact, I recall ObL saying that al Qaida celebrated the attack, was glad it happened, but didn't plan it. If you really want to find out who did it, follow the money.

Oh yeah, BTW- Our whole government and media are Orwellian. I keep telling folks that you don't find out what's happening by watching the news, you pay attention to the silence between the parts that are blared out for mass consumption. You watch the timing and the disappearance of "news" items. Just like in "V". For example,... what is the meaning of the joint Russia-Chinese military exercises http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/2138.cfms especially considering that Russia just suspended the Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) treaty? http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1674174120070716

The "news" is just a dumb-show for the dummies.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I have my deepley seeded reasons why we're really over there, but none of them have ever been said on the news, let alone much amongst the proles.

Did you note that the first thing the troops upon entering Iraq was not to rush to the proposed WMD sites, but to secure the oil rigs and refineries? Kind'a telling, I must say.

And here's another gripe: don't you think that the whole situation over there would now be more secure, the locals happier with the west, the infrastructure actually improved over Saddam's days, and the rush to continue the jihad less popular, if we had given reconstruction contracts to local Iraqi companies instead of handing huge no-bid, no-questions-asked contracts to Halliburton and their ilk? Maybe we could have let the Iraqis run their own country, and profit off their own resources?

But, no. This war is, and always has been, a cash cow for the exact companies that I would have predicted in 2000. I remember an article in the Boston Globe before that election that said that Cheney represented all that is evil about corporate America, and pointed straight to Halliburton. And now these bastards are running a war. Go figure.

Quote:
I honestly think, our only choice at this point is Ron Paul. He's the only rational voice of freedom our Government has heard for a long time.

Very possibly, but like you I doubt it'll happen. Stupid Americans. Things aren't bad for us, really. So why bother changing?

The founding fathers thread is great, but also quite scary. You know what they say about a frog in hot water? You drop a frog in boiling water, it jumps out. You put a frog in cool water and gradually warm it up, it'll cook to death. I read that thread and started thinking, wow this water is hot...

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, July 16, 2007 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Stupid Americans. Things aren't bad for us, really. So why bother changing?

Mal, why do you hate America?

The evil, smirking, snarky Chrisisall

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Monday, July 16, 2007 7:20 AM

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_riverbendblog_archive.htm
l

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Mal, why do you hate America?

Hey, what's not to like about frog soup?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, July 16, 2007 7:28 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
And here's another gripe: don't you think that the whole situation over there would now be more secure, the locals happier with the west, the infrastructure actually improved over Saddam's days, and the rush to continue the jihad less popular, if we had given reconstruction contracts to local Iraqi companies instead of handing huge no-bid, no-questions-asked contracts to Halliburton and their ilk? Maybe we could have let the Iraqis run their own country, and profit off their own resources?

But, no. This war is, and always has been, a cash cow for the exact companies that I would have predicted in 2000. I remember an article in the Boston Globe before that election that said that Cheney represented all that is evil about corporate America, and pointed straight to Halliburton. And now these bastards are running a war. Go figure.

This reminded me of something I read sometime ago, and was thankfully quite easy to find (first result on my first search):

Quote:
...

Yesterday, I read how it was going to take up to $90 billion to rebuild Iraq. Bremer was shooting out numbers about how much it was going to cost to replace buildings and bridges and electricity, etc.

Listen to this little anecdote. One of my cousins works in a prominent engineering company in Baghdad- we’ll call the company H. This company is well-known for designing and building bridges all over Iraq. My cousin, a structural engineer, is a bridge freak. He spends hours talking about pillars and trusses and steel structures to anyone who’ll listen.

As May was drawing to a close, his manager told him that someone from the CPA wanted the company to estimate the building costs of replacing the New Diyala Bridge on the South East end of Baghdad. He got his team together, they went out and assessed the damage, decided it wasn’t too extensive, but it would be costly. They did the necessary tests and analyses (mumblings about soil composition and water depth, expansion joints and girders) and came up with a number they tentatively put forward- $300,000. This included new plans and designs, raw materials (quite cheap in Iraq), labor, contractors, travel expenses, etc.

Let’s pretend my cousin is a dolt. Let’s pretend he hasn’t been working with bridges for over 17 years. Let’s pretend he didn’t work on replacing at least 20 of the 133 bridges damaged during the first Gulf War. Let’s pretend he’s wrong and the cost of rebuilding this bridge is four times the number they estimated- let’s pretend it will actually cost $1,200,000. Let’s just use our imagination.

A week later, the New Diyala Bridge contract was given to an American company. This particular company estimated the cost of rebuilding the bridge would be around- brace yourselves- $50,000,000 !!

...

So instead of bringing in thousands of foreign companies that are going to want billions of dollars, why aren’t the Iraqi engineers, electricians and laborers being taken advantage of? Thousands of people who have no work would love to be able to rebuild Iraq… no one is being given a chance.

The reconstruction of Iraq is held above our heads like a promise and a threat. People roll their eyes at reconstruction because they know (Iraqis are wily) that these dubious reconstruction projects are going to plunge the country into a national debt only comparable to that of America. A few already rich contractors are going to get richer, Iraqi workers are going to be given a pittance and the unemployed Iraqi public can stand on the sidelines and look at the glamorous buildings being built by foreign companies.

I always say this war is about oil. It is. But it is also about huge corporations that are going to make billions off of reconstructing what was damaged during this war. Can you say Haliburton? (Which, by the way, got the very first contracts to replace the damaged oil infrastructure and put out ‘oil fires’ way back in April).

Well, of course it’s going to take uncountable billions to rebuild Iraq, Mr. Bremer, if the contracts are all given to foreign companies! Or perhaps the numbers are this frightening because Ahmad Al-Chalabi is the one doing the books- he *is* the math expert, after all.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 8:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Here's another. Unfortunately I can't find it again.

The main power generating stations in Baghdad were is disrepair. Ducts were leaking, turbines needed spare parts. The Plant Engineer knew what it would take to repair the plant: spare parts and elbow grease. But because the turbines were French and Russian built, the United States refused to purchase those parts and instead gave complete turbine replacement contracts to GE. Which necessitated replacing just about everything.

KA-CHING!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 9:19 AM

Thanks guys, for substantiating everything we suspected about war reps.

Now, a word from the boys at "What the market will bear" Capitalism Carpetbaggers, Inc....

Chrisisall

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Monday, July 16, 2007 9:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks guys, for substantiating everything we suspected about war reps.

Now, a word from the boys at "What the market will bear" Capitalism Carpetbaggers, Inc....

Chrisisall

I knew a guy that worked for a European telecoms equipment manufacturer. Back before 1991 they supplied most of the equipment to Kuwait Telecom. During the Iraqi invasion almost anything technical was ripped out by the Iraqi's and they tried to ship it home when they withdrew. Needless to say most of the telephone equipment was wrecked. Once hostilities were over he was sent to Kuwait to assess the damage. While he was there a complete containerised telephone exchange was flown in to Kuwait City by US airlift command (ie the US Military.) The US competitor that provided this exchange then offered free calls usinging it, allowing many Kuwaities to call family abroad to let them know they had survived.

Needless to say that American company got the lions share of the contracts for rebuilding the telephone system after the war. Is it an unfair advanatge do you think? Is this commerce and government a little too close?

It doesnt surprise me that the US would want to put in GE equipment for the power grid. They know who they are dealing with, have ideas of making a big shiney gift to the Bagdad utility (with doubless other orders to follow.)

This is Americans spending American tax money on American goods, if the contract had gone to Thompson or a Russian company you know they would be pilaried at home, especially by whatever representative has the GE plant in their constituency.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Is it an unfair advanatge do you think? Is this commerce and government a little too close?

The government IS commerce.

No effective seperation there Chrisisall

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Monday, July 16, 2007 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Is it an unfair advanatge do you think? Is this commerce and government a little too close?

The government IS commerce.

No effective seperation there Chrisisall

As I said in the other thread economic concerns become national concerns and politics rides herd on both.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 12:03 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I knew a guy that worked for a European telecoms equipment manufacturer. Back before 1991 they supplied most of the equipment to Kuwait Telecom. During the Iraqi invasion almost anything technical was ripped out by the Iraqi's and they tried to ship it home when they withdrew. Needless to say most of the telephone equipment was wrecked. Once hostilities were over he was sent to Kuwait to assess the damage. While he was there a complete containerised telephone exchange was flown in to Kuwait City by US airlift command (ie the US Military.) The US competitor that provided this exchange then offered free calls usinging it, allowing many Kuwaities to call family abroad to let them know they had survived.

Needless to say that American company got the lions share of the contracts for rebuilding the telephone system after the war. Is it an unfair advantage do you think? Is this commerce and government a little too close?

It's not quite that simple though Fletch. It's a select few companies, not all American corporations. What about contractors from nations that also fought? Would the American Government not know what to expect with them?

Where we're talking rebuilding bridges with outside contractors, that by rights should have lost the bid, I find it a funny definition of 'winning hearts and minds' to freeze out the indigenous population from rebuilding their own country for the sake of Foreign contractors. In fact it's startling similar to something you might expect from the British during the colonisation of India...

Middle East Iraqi Trading Company is all.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Where we're talking rebuilding bridges with outside contractors, that by rights should have lost the bid, I find it a funny definition of 'winning hearts and minds' to freeze out the indigenous population from rebuilding their own country for the sake of Foreign contractors.

I agree. However, politics messes with what should be a simple equation. First, there is an understandable preference to work with known parties and people whose reputation for "getting the job done" is well known. There would likely be a lot of eyes on the project and you wouldn't want to screw up in public. Second you'd want somebody compliant with accounting and reporting standards used for US Gov projects since the work has to be audited. A legal US entity lets you take legal action if they screw up etc.

It is most definately the wrong thing to do, but it's also the safest, least risk way forward when you are spending a lot of tax dollars really quickly.

As an analogy, when I lived in the UK I could do a fast deal with a couple of dodgy gents on the Totenham Court Rd if I needed a cheap motherboard. There is no way I could use that same firm to supply parts for my company computers, no matter how cheap they could sell to me. If I needed parts I had to go through prefered suppliers to get them, not smart, not cheap but infinately ass covering.

Finally this is a US government contract. The way government bidness is done here is that members of congress from company X's state tends to look out for company X's interests because not only is X likely to have dropped a nice campaign contribution but the local economy and many of the congressman's constituents depend on company X. So if Uncle Sam is flashing cash in an area that company X competes in and X doesnt get any of it then "questions" will be asked.

And yes, back home that would sound suspiciously like graft.

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Monday, July 16, 2007 12:27 PM

Oh lordy, this one is too easy.

Might I direct folks once again to the sage wisdom of General Smedley D Butler, a man who's credentials and reputation are unreproachable.

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

War is a racket, always has been, always will be.

From East India Trading, to United Fruit, to Dupont, Standard Oil, Hearst, Rockefellar, Rothschild, and now Cheney and Haliburton, as well as the Bilderbergs and Carlysle Group...

Only the names change, but the game never does.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, July 16, 2007 12:38 PM

Re: Boiling Frogs.

The problem these days is incompetence.
Someone got a little too free with the heat and right now a substantial percentage of the frogs are jumping around the kitchen makin all amount of racket.

It's not even that their evil rapacious bastards, it's that they're so BAD at it, that I find the most offensive.

-F

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Monday, July 16, 2007 1:28 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's not even that their evil rapacious bastards, it's that they're so BAD at it, that I find the most offensive.

If you're going to rape me, at least do it well?

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Monday, July 16, 2007 2:16 PM

Hell yeah, a lil reach-around'd be nice, now an then...

(oh if only I had a webcam to watch reactions to THAT one..)

Seriously tho, the incompetent execution offends me more than the nefarious plan - if we're gonna go for world domination, at least do it right where we stand a chance of actually getting the job done.

-F

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, July 16, 2007 3:22 PM

America loves a winner!

It's called 'spin'. OBL was playing w/ the media. Remember those videos of him praising the attacks and taking credit?

I'm so damn tired of folks making things out of nothing while ignoring the most obvious. It's a sad state of....well, humanity.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, July 16, 2007 5:24 PM

Well..... now I know why the DOW is almost 14,000.

How I miss the days of the dotcom bubble and the Y2K scare....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just in time for the 2008 elections....

Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Al Qaeda will try to tap its allies and resources in Iraq in its efforts to exact another terrorist attack on U.S. soil, according to a top government intelligence report released Tuesday. Officials have expressed concern in the past that the Iraq war is providing a theater for al Qaeda to train insurgents and test the terror network's capabilities.

"In addition, we assess that its association with [al Qaeda in Iraq] helps al Qaeda to energize the broader Sunni extremist community, raise resources and to recruit and indoctrinate operatives, including for homeland attacks," said the declassified summary of the National Intelligence Estimate.

Whatever happened to "fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here?"

Bush: running a nation on twin rails of fear.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:51 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap

"those videos ... and taking credit" I don't think he did - they were praising Allah, but not actually 'taking credit'. And it was small portion of one video - just a few seconds worth - not "those videos". It doesn't help to over-state your case.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:14 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"First, there is an understandable preference to work with known parties and people whose reputation for "getting the job done" is well known."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ... As long as "the job" is putting money in your pocket and the pockets of your friends. As much and as quickly as possible with as little actual investment of time and materials as possible ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:20 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap

"those videos ... and taking credit" I don't think he did - they were praising Allah, but not actually 'taking credit'. And it was small portion of one video - just a few seconds worth - not "those videos". It doesn't help to over-state your case.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a lie, it's a threat to freedom."

Guess you forget his Fatwah, issued back in '98, huh? Well, so many here can't even remember back to 9/11/01, I shouldn't expect much.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just in time for the 2008 elections....
Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Al Qaeda will try to tap its allies and resources in Iraq in its efforts to exact another terrorist attack on U.S. soil, according to a top government intelligence report released Tuesday. Officials have expressed concern in the past that the Iraq war is providing a theater for al Qaeda to train insurgents and test the terror network's capabilities.

"In addition, we assess that its association with [al Qaeda in Iraq] helps al Qaeda to energize the broader Sunni extremist community, raise resources and to recruit and indoctrinate operatives, including for homeland attacks," said the declassified summary of the National Intelligence Estimate.
Whatever happened to "fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here?"

Bush: running a nation on twin rails of fear.

Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Re: Boiling Frogs.

The problem these days is incompetence.
Someone got a little too free with the heat and right now a substantial percentage of the frogs are jumping around the kitchen makin all amount of racket.

It's not even that their evil rapacious bastards, it's that they're so BAD at it, that I find the most offensive.

-F

Yeah, I find that more scary than offensive. It wasn't `till a few months back I began to suspect the true depth of this administration's incompetence. Really, it goes beyond anything I imagined. I always knew they had an evil plan, so to speak, (as in - a plan I disagreed with, flame me all you want!) but I never thought that they'd fail so utterly at it. I had underestimated the severity of Dubya's denial and delusion. I truly think the guy is certifiable.

Thing is, I'm not at all happy to see him go down. It's frightening how much of the world and of our personal freedoms he's dragging down with him.

But then, as you say, he's created an awful lot of pissed-off frogs. That's not necessarily bad. Maybe some fixes will get made to a system that needs it. The founding fathers thread makes it clear that this mess didn't start with George and Dick, they just took it way too far...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
First, there is an understandable preference to work with known parties and people whose reputation for "getting the job done" is well known. There would likely be a lot of eyes on the project and you wouldn't want to screw up in public.

Yeah, as someone who's seen a bit of the system from the inside, I'm with Rue on this. What a joke.

And can I just stress... *No bid* contracts for Halliburton, and mercenary companies that have been formed by buddies of Cheney and company just within the past 7-8 years. Hmm.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

As to the original topic of the thread - I do remember the story. It isn't a retro-plant. But it was quickly drowned out by the Bush administration AND the compliant media.

You may remember the sequence -
Bush claims it's bin Laden - he says they have information that can't be shared with the public.
Bin Laden issues a denial.
Bush escalates his agenda on a daily basis -
* bin Laden brought to justice
* bin Laden dead or alive
* bin Laden and al Qaeda's top leaders
* bin Laden and al Qaeda's top leaders and their supporters Mullah Omar and the Taliban
* the undefined and never-ending GWOT
- any goup of people Bush considers "ter'rists" and any country in the world.
* anyone who disagrees with Bush in any way "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists
Bush demands Afghanistan immediately turn bin Laden over to the US.
Afghanistan says they'll be happy to, but they want to turn him over to the ICC.
Bush attacks Afghanistan to get bin Laden.
The Taliban falls, and Bush immediately forgets bin Laden turns his attention to Iraq.

During the next 20 months or so the US makes a big show of searching for 'proof' it was bin Laden (as I recall correctly, the US said it searched the equivalent of 20 boxcars full of papers, transcripts and videos.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, if Bush had 'proof' - why not let Afghanistan turn bin Laden over to the ICC? Put the proof out in the court so that everyone can see that justice WAS done. And if Bush had 'proof- why did the US have to scour Afghanistan for the faintest trace of evidence ? And if it WAS bin Laden - why let him go ?

"I don't know where bin Laden is and I don't care. To tell you the truth, I don't think much about him."

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:48 AM

SERGEANTX

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.

Bush's response was and continues to be so dysfunctional as to be counterproductive. So we were attacked by terrorists from Saudi Arabia and we attack IRAQ? Meanwhile, back in oblivious-land, first responders STILL don't have a common frequency for multi-agency response.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:55 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap

"Guess you forget his Fatwah, issued back in '98, huh? Well, so many here can't even remember back to 9/11/01, I shouldn't expect much"

I'd be happy to consider it. Got a link or searchable quote for that ? (Though I have to say that claiming a fatwah - which is a position - as proof is laughable.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA *TAKES BREATH, CLEANS SODA OFF COMPUTER SCREEN*
BWBBBBAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Uh..heh heh , you 're killin' me AU!! heh

Wiping the tears of laughter Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ... As long as "the job" is putting money in your pocket and the pockets of your friends. As much and as quickly as possible with as little actual investment of time and materials as possible ...

Well, they tried the "give Paul Bremmer a few palettes of $100 bills and see what happens" method, and that apparently didn't work.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/index.html

After that having someone you could audit sounded like a good idea..............

You can't make stuff like this up, it's too bizarre.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6316057.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4266231.stm

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The founding fathers thread makes it clear that this mess didn't start with George and Dick, they just took it way too far...

So did Billy Joel:

We Didn’t Start The Fire
Storm Front Released: 1989

Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnny Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio

Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe

Rosenbergs, H Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, The King And I, and The Catcher In The Rye

Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Maciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc

Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dancron
Dien Bien Phu Falls, Rock Around the Clock

Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland

Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Khrushchev
Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, Bridge On The River Kwai

Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball
Starkwether, Homicide, Children of Thalidomide
Buddy Holly, Ben Hur, Space Monkey, Mafia
Hula Hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go

U2, Syngman Rhee, payola and Kennedy
Chubby Checker, Psycho, Belgians in the Congo

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Hemingway, Eichman, Stranger in a Strange Land
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion

Lawrence of Arabia, British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson

Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British Politician sex
J.F.K. blown away, what else do I have to say

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, Terror on the airline
Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan

Wheel of Fortune, Sally Ride, heavy metal, suicide
Foreign debts, homeless Vets, AIDS, Crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shores, China's under martial law
Rock and Roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:19 PM

FREDGIBLET

6ix

Somehow I never thought of you as a Billy Joel fan...

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:25 PM

I know on here I must come off as a one trick pony.

I'd like to think that in the real world I'm full of suprises though.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:48 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA *TAKES BREATH, CLEANS SODA OFF COMPUTER SCREEN*
BWBBBBAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Uh..heh heh , you 're killin' me AU!! heh

Wiping the tears of laughter Chrisisall

al Qaeda thanks you for your support.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:50 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.
Bush's response was and continues to be so dysfunctional as to be counterproductive. So we were attacked by terrorists from Saudi Arabia and we attack IRAQ? Meanwhile, back in oblivious-land, first responders STILL don't have a common frequency for multi-agency response.

.

We didn't attack Iraq in response to the 9/11 attacks, and you KNOW that. Unless you're struck w/ amnesia, we invaded Afghanistan a full YEAR before Iraq, and for completely different reasons. Damn, I get so fucking tired of having to repeat myself over this, so I think I'll pass this time.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:07 PM

We should have struk while the iron was hot Auraptor and destroyed Mecca right after 9/11 if we wanted to send a message to NEVER fuck with us again, but we didn't. We never won anything in Afghanistan. We just used it as a means of segueing into invading Iraq for their oil and to make the big H a helluva lot of money.

Remember man. I f

ing hate Demoncrats too.

Vote Ron Paul

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:11 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We should have struk while the iron was hot Auraptor and destroyed Mecca right after 9/11 if we wanted to send a message to NEVER fuck with us again, but we didn't. We never won anything in Afghanistan. We just used it as a means of segueing into invading Iraq for their oil and to make the big H a helluva lot of money.

Remember man. I fing hate Demoncrats too.

Getting Iraq's oil and making money for 'big H' ? Those are cute talking points, buT I can't, won't accept that people actually believe that stuff. This goes well beyond politics, imo. Dems, GOP, it doesn't matter ( or shouldn't ) Alas, some don't live in that world.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This goes well beyond politics, imo. Dems, GOP, it doesn't matter ( or shouldn't )

You're right Auraptor, it goes well beyond politics. Why, Dems, Repubs, Libertarians and even Independents are doing it. It's called common sense.

And you're right, we didn't invade Iraq "because of" 9-11 and al Qaida. But it sure made a helluva good excuse.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:12 AM

Well they do believe it. So get over it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:19 AM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Bush is responding to a threat which others ignored for too long. One of the few good things he HAS done.
Bush's response was and continues to be so dysfunctional as to be counterproductive. So we were attacked by terrorists from Saudi Arabia and we attack IRAQ? Meanwhile, back in oblivious-land, first responders STILL don't have a common frequency for multi-agency response.

.

We didn't attack Iraq in response to the 9/11 attacks, and you KNOW that. Unless you're struck w/ amnesia, we invaded Afghanistan a full YEAR before Iraq, and for completely different reasons. Damn, I get so fucking tired of having to repeat myself over this, so I think I'll pass this time.

Exactly, we didn't go into Iraq over 9/11. So, why did we?
I won't argue that going into Afghanistan was justified, I believe it was. However, to state that going into Iraq was part of the war on terror? Certainly wasn't due to an al-Qaeda connection... Keep in mind your initial statement was pretty vague, "Bush is finally doing something"... I too assumed you meant Iraq. Now, if you -just- meant Afganistan, it would help if you clarified that.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:25 AM