It almost happened here. by Fremdfirma

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"coup plot ... by right-wing American businessmen" ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:03 AM

Well, aside from anti-capitalist propaganda, it’s hardly news that Fascism existed in the US during the 30’s. The term “international Jew” was coined by Henry Ford. It was a fairly widespread ideology. Some countries lost their bid against it, Germany, Italy, Spain – most however did not.

As for how close the US came, I doubt very, and so do most historians, I think. Extremist ideologies have a hard time asserting themselves with enough strength to topple the government in liberal democracies, because it’s hard to find enough people that dissatisfied with the country or the government.

But during the Great Depression things were really bad for a lot of people, and if it was going to happen, it would have been then, when there were a lot of desperate and starving people in search of anything to give them hope. And the policies of the Government didn’t really help matters that much. Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped, and many capitalists during that period were very concerned that the government was moving so quickly towards State control of the economy.

Fascism certainly existed in the US – that’s not news, shouldn’t be to anyone. It also shouldn’t be news that the Great Depression was an extremely tumultuous and desperate time in our history. But if people point to this period in time and insist capitalism is fascist try to see through the party line.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:07 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:28 AM

....
I was gonna say something, but on second thought, never mind.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:49 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:07

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 08:49

Any ??

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Save your goddamn party bickering, it's meaningless.

I'm with ya.

Tired of divide and conquer Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 9:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I wonder how long it will take some folks- including some so-called Libertarians- to realize that business has its own agenda which is not the agenda of the people, the government, or the free market. It doesn't matter whether they achieve their goals by overthrowing the goverment or taking over the political process, if in the end they get what they want.

And what DO they want, one might ask? 100% market share. Favorable treatment in tax, civil, and criminal law. The police and courts to ensure they get to keep their money- and yours too. Union-busting. The driver's seat when it comes to writing trade and banking rules... making sure that enviromental, social, labor concerns are never represented. Protection overseas by the USA military. Government in service to business. Fascism.

It didn't "almost" happen here.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

It didn't "almost" happen here.

Quiet takeovers are the most effective.
It happens on small scales that we can see, and large scales that we, as a country, turn a blind eye to.
Say "Corpor-fascism", and many just compare us to Cuba or Italy under Mussolini to say we're free.
Free as puppets.
And when there's two or three big Corporations running everything, where will we be?

Welcome to the late 21st Century Corporate Wars.

@Finn- as much as I respect your intelligence, knowledge of history, and general common sense, can't you see this as the road we're on?
The world is gonna get a whole lot meaner, it's not supposed to, but it will.
Unless we can see it, and stop it before it's too late.

But...put a plasma screen in every household, and genetically-modified potatoes on every plate, and our complacency might just land us there. It might not be so bad...freedom of choice IS highly over-rated, it's been said.

Baaaaa Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:22 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

It's interesting to see just how many Socialists there are out there that dont realise it.

Looking at the posts on this thread so far allmost all of you are taking a Socialist standpoint, but at the same time the same people would deny being Socialists.

Very interesting.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
It's interesting to see just how many Socialists there are out there that dont realise it.

I admit to a socialist (as in Star Trek) streak...but socialism, like capitalism, can lead to fascism. It's an eternal balance, go too far left, too far right, too capitalist, too socialist, and you end up where you DON'T want to be.

I was thinkin' a place in the middle Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:38 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
It's interesting to see just how many Socialists there are out there that dont realise it.

Looking at the posts on this thread so far allmost all of you are taking a Socialist standpoint, but at the same time the same people would deny being Socialists.

Very interesting.

You have the name England in your name.

I was told by an American recently that Britain is almost completely socialist.

So shut up comrade before the Yankee learns our glorious plan!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:58 PM

I am not a socialist, I am an Anarchist.
But all in all, a fairly tolerant one - people wanna structure, fine, dandy...

But when that structure starts harming or taking from me and mine, I get snippy about it, sure.

In times past and current, folks like me have allied with communists, socialists, libertarians, even conservatives like Ron Paul, we don't take a single line and then stick to it in spite of plainly obvious realities - we go with what is likely to net us the most freedom, rather than a rigid party line.

Cause that's what it's about, innit ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:22 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:07

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 08:49

Any ??

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 14:22

At all ????

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:37 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think a lot has to do with what people define "socialist". I suggest that "socialism" is government intervention in the distribution of wealth, "communism" as government acqusition of the "means of production", and "fascism" as private business acquisition of the means of government.

What say ye?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[B]@Finn- as much as I respect your intelligence, knowledge of history, and general common sense, can't you see this as the road we're on?
The world is gonna get a whole lot meaner, it's not supposed to, but it will.
Unless we can see it, and stop it before it's too late.

Stop what?

There will always be people trying to scare you into accepting their version. But they can’t see the future anymore then anyone else. If you want to buy into the pessimistic road to hell stuff, be my guess. But the pessimists are the one’s who are least likely to stay on top of things. If you’ve convinced yourself we’re on some road to hell, then why bother? I don’t see the worst case scenarios pushed by people with ideological bents as inevitable. What I see is a country of people with many different opinions and backgrounds that has lasted for over 200 years. And in those two centuries we have gone from poor backwater nation where freedom and prosperity were limited to certain white men to a wealthy and influential nation where freedom and prosperity are available for almost everyone, even by pessimistic standards.

Now I have to admit that the prospects for my side of the story don’t look all that great. In 08 Hillary will be president, and you’ll get your socialism and probably your withdraw from Iraq, which will solve certain problems, but it will cause others. There is no magic solution, but we’ll get through it, like we always have.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:08 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:07

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 08:49

Any ??

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 14:22

At all ????

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 15:08

I thought not. As usual. Another stellar Finn post.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But they can’t see the future anymore then anyone else.

Bah. Some people can't even see the present.

Quote:
But the pessimists are the one’s who are least likely to stay on top of things.

In reality? That's not true. It turns out that the people our modern-day psychologists would call "slightly depressed" are MORE accurate predictors of the future. Our stupid culture apparently requires a certain amount of mania to survive it.

Quote:
If you’ve convinced yourself we’re on some road to hell, then why bother?

Who the f*ck wants to dive off a cliff? YOU?

Quote:
I don’t see...

So far, the most accurate thing you've said.

Quote:
What I see is a country of people with many different opinions and backgrounds that has lasted for over 200 years. And in those two centuries we have gone from poor backwater nation where freedom and prosperity were limited to certain white men to a wealthy and influential nation where freedom and prosperity are available for almost everyone

On the backs of poor people everywhere

Quote:
even by pessimistic standards

You're the one playing the zero-sum game, not me. No wonder you're in the land of denial.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 3:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

If you want to buy into the pessimistic road to hell stuff, be my guest. But the pessimists are the one’s who are least likely to stay on top of things. If you’ve convinced yourself we’re on some road to hell, then why bother?

1) seeing the road leading to a cliff dropoff means you can try and change direction
2) even if the worst happens, as in Dark Angel, we can still find a way to cope, or even bounce back

Quote:

In 08 Hillary will be president

WHO'S BEING F**KING PESSIMISTIC NOW?!?!???

Quote:
There is no magic solution, but we’ll get through it, like we always have.

Ice Age, Plague, Depression...hmmm...your probably right.

Uplifted Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 3:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:07

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

I'm doing the work here:
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/greatdepression/tp/greatdepression
.htm

Quote:
4. American Economic Policy with Europe
As businesses began failing, the government created the Hawley-Smoot Tariff in 1930 to help protect American companies. This charged a high tax for imports thereby leading to less trade between America and foreign countries along with some economic retaliation.

This is as close as I could come in the time I had to search...

Chrisisataloss

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:09 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:07

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Links, quotes, references ?

I'm doing the work here:

Nice work Chris, or how about this one,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_deal
Does a good job of giving both sides of the story IMHO. Makes me think Rue is more interested in baiting than in learning, if that can be believed.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In 08 Hillary will be president
WHO'S BEING F**KING PESSIMISTIC NOW?!?!???

Just thought you’d like that one.

It’s not pessimism to accept a possibility. It might be pessimism to think we're doomed after realizing that possibility.

Of course sometimes, we are doomed, but it rarely does a lot of good to dwell on it. And Hillary isn't enough woman to doom this country.

Frankly, I'm far more concerned with the way people are so quick to assume the worst about America and about where we are going. That will have far more impact on where we end up then whether Hillary is elected in 08.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm doing the work here:
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/greatdepression/tp/greatdepression
.htm
Quote:
4. American Economic Policy with Europe
As businesses began failing, the government created the Hawley-Smoot Tariff in 1930 to help protect American companies. This charged a high tax for imports thereby leading to less trade between America and foreign countries along with some economic retaliation.
This is as close as I could come in the time I had to search...

Chrisisataloss

That’s part of it. But there were other factors as well. Unemployment was the real problem during the Great Depression and this was prolonged by two New Deal policies, National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 and the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. These policies had the effect of restricting prices and restricting productivity, which of course lead to firms with less reason to hire new employees or keep the employees they have.

New Deal Policies and the Persistence of the Great Depression: A General Equilibrium Analysis. H.L Cole, L.E. Ohanian
http://www.economics.hawaii.edu/research/seminars/02-03/02-21.pdf

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Does a good job of giving both sides of the story IMHO. Makes me think Rue is more interested in baiting than in learning, if that can be believed

You know BDN I don't think it unfair or unreasonable to expect people to provide links or references when they're proposing a concept, hypothesis or fact. It's done all the time in higher-level discussions. Not that you'd know anything about that because you're a big damn vacuum.

I could add that you suck at one end and blow at the other, but I won't.

---------------------------------
Well, it's true.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...business has its own agenda which is not the agenda of the people...

Just to dip a toe back in the pool after a nice vacation, what exactly is "...the agenda of the people..."? While we're at it, are you quite sure that all business has the same agenda?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:45 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Agenda of "the people"... however you define what "people" I can tell you what people are NOT: People are not businesses by any measure: legally, pratically, definitionally.

Agenda of business: As any good corporatist (Fletch2, Finn) will tell you business (except non-profits so I'm not sure they qualify as a "business") are in business to make a profit. Publicly traded businesses have the additional motivation to show good quarterly returns. What that means is that they try to reduce costs while increasing revenues. So, yeah... all businesses have the same agenda. Any other questions?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
what exactly is "...the agenda of the people..."? While we're at it, are you quite sure that all business has the same agenda?

The people want to get the most for their money. Businesses want to give the least for your money. They should meet somewhere in the middle, and when they don't, someone's getting screwed.

Definitionally Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 8:23 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

DAMN

"Makes me think Rue is more interested in baiting than in learning, if that can be believed.

"

Why would you think that ? Surely Finn had something specific in mind when he posted. Why should I try to fill in the blanks of his thoughts ?

Now, if he didn't have anything specific in mind and was just BSing, then of course it would be hard to come up with the specifics.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:49 AM

MALBADINLATIN

What you need Frem are angry villagers, lots of torches, pointy dangerous things with long handles, and say 10,000 or so angry followers dressed in black robes......wait.....this is starting to remind me of The Omega Man.....

Ok!.....maybe you just need to drag one republican and one democrat into the village and stone them both, and whomever dies last, you can burn them....then you'll feel alot better I'm sure

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:53 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know BDN I don't think it unfair or unreasonable to expect people to provide links or references when they're proposing a concept, hypothesis or fact. It's done all the time in higher-level discussions.

Could not agree with you more. Did not think there was some set response time when one Poster asks another for links or references. Rue was being an ass, though the odds of you ever agreeing with that are none.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not that you'd know anything about that because you're a big damn vacuum.

Please provide some links or references which back up this assertion, please and thank-you.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:25 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Economists and historians today are beginning to realize that the New Dealers probably caused more Depression then they helped"

Economists and historians - wow, they're all over the place, they should be falling out of the trees.

Instead what we find is two authors and one paper, dug up after nearly a full day, that refers to "Some economists" which, when looking at the reference is one economist (Atelson, James). And in fact it wasn't about the New Deal per se with Social Security and other supposedly socialist programs.

WOW. It was just like Finn said. Not.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Please provide some links or references which back up this assertion, please and thank-you.

http://newyorktimesnot.com 746hfch7

Quote:
July 14 2007
The poster known as 'BigDamnNobody' has been identified as a vacuum, and a damn big one at that. Measuring over 220 ft. long, it is the biggest vacuum currently posting online. Theories as to exactly how it posts are a mystery, however some form of magick is thought to be involved...

Happy to oblige Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:58 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Please provide some links or references which back up this assertion, please and thank-you.

http://newyorktimesnot.com 746hfch7
Quote:
July 14 2007
The poster known as 'BigDamnNobody' has been identified as a vacuum, and a damn big one at that. Measuring over 220 ft. long, it is the biggest vacuum currently posting online. Theories as to exactly how it posts are a mystery, however some form of magick is thought to be involved...

Happy to oblige Chrisisall

Wait! The style of that posting looks suspiciously like Faux News! Be carefull or they will claim journalistic pugulism, pragmatism, paganism.... something that starts with P and ends in "ism."

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
July 14 2007
The poster known as 'BigDamnNobody' has been identified as a vacuum, and a damn big one at that. Measuring over 220 ft. long, it is the biggest vacuum currently posting online. Theories as to exactly how it posts are a mystery, however some form of magick is thought to be involved...

Quote:
Wait! The style of that posting looks suspiciously like Faux News! Be carefull or they will claim journalistic pugulism, pragmatism, paganism.... something that starts with P and ends in "ism."

If anyone had passed my cube a couple moments ago they would have suspected risus sardonicus.
www.vaccineinformation.org/tetanus/photos.asp Some folks were having a discussion next cube over and I was laughing my head off... silently.

---------------------------------
SMILE when you say that!

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:22 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
http://newyorktimesnot.com 746hfch7
Quote:
July 14 2007
The poster known as 'BigDamnNobody' has been identified as a vacuum, and a damn big one at that. Measuring over 220 ft. long, it is the biggest vacuum currently posting online. Theories as to exactly how it posts are a mystery, however some form of magick is thought to be involved...

Like any one would believe that 'lefty' rag anyways, except the 220 ft. long part.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tsk tsk! READ CAREFULLY. You are credited with OVER 220 ft! Could be... 400 ft!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:30 PM

Imma go with "10000 angry villagers" for $400, chuck...

Actually, I'd settle for 1 Democrat, 2 testicles, 1 spine and a really good surgeon.

Not that it would accomplish MUCH, mind you, but it'd be a start.

Of course, that begs the question of whether they'd still be a dimmocrat... post-op transpolitical, maybe ?

-F

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 3:16 PM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Of course, that begs the question of whether they'd still be a dimmocrat... post-op transpolitical, maybe ?

Maybe if this were Buffy or something, one would find themselves voting for Hillary and not remembering it in the morning, which is waaay worse than hangovers.

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:59 PM

Yanno, I was planning to editorialise a bit, and stumbled on something earlier...

It's not often I get beaten to the punch on something of this nature and rare indeed by someone who does so well a job.

This Jason Miller dude did a pretty blistering rebuke of Capitalism in general, and without the inevitable snark, profanity and slam that yours truly would have added out of sheer viciousness.

http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=168#more-168

I may not wholly agree with his assessment, and in fact I do not - but he brings up all the salient points that should be addressed.

Regrettably, it's probably too long and involved for the faux news dittoheads, but they wouldn't read it anyway, they'll just fall back on the old standby of jamming both fingers in their ears and screaming "liberal/socialism communist propaganda" over and over again like some mantra supposed to bring em closer to heaven or something.

Figured i'd post it for thems actually interested in discussing it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:09 PM

Quote:
what exactly is "...the agenda of the people..."?

And I say to that -
Consider our situation, sir: go to the poor man, and ask him what he does. He will inform you that he enjoys the fruits of his labor, under his own fig-tree, with his wife and children around him, in peace and security. Go to every other member of society, — you will find the same tranquil ease and content; you will find no alarms or disturbances. Why, then, tell us of danger, to terrify us into an adoption of this new form of government? And yet who knows the dangers that this new system may produce? They are out of the sight of the common people: they cannot foresee latent consequences. I dread the operation of it on the middling and lower classes of people: it is for them I fear the adoption of this system.
Patrick Henry, 1788.

"The People" wanna keep what they got, and not be robbed and molested by anyone, and that includes governments, corporations, and agents of the state.

That's what they have ALWAYS wanted, all throughout history, and pressed hard enough to the wall, they can and will commit violence over this plain, simple, thing.

I swear, i'm { } thiiisss close to wanting to literally beat some folk senseless with a history textbook.

-Frem

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Friday, July 27, 2007 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Could not agree with you more. Did not think there was some set response time when one Poster asks another for links or references. Rue was being an ass, though the odds of you ever agreeing with that are none.

You know, I didn’t even know that rue had thrown this little fit until you said this. Rue has been acting like such a little cuss lately that I just passed right by his posts without reading them. Of course, he doesn’t really need me to respond, evidently, he’s perfectly capable of dismissing opinions and facts he doesn’t want to hear all by himself.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I swear, i'm { } thiiisss close to wanting to literally beat some folk senseless with a history textbook.

I'll hold 'em for you & feed them to ya.
A lot need whackin'

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 27, 2007 3:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"The People" wanna keep what they got, and not be robbed and molested by anyone, and that includes governments, corporations, and agents of the state.

That's what they have ALWAYS wanted, all throughout history, and pressed hard enough to the wall, they can and will commit violence over this plain, simple, thing.

I swear, i'm { } thiiisss close to wanting to literally beat some folk senseless with a history textbook.

So in your opinion the agenda of the people is to maintain the status quo in their lives. I agree that not being robbed and molested is a good thing, but as a member of the People, if this was all I wanted I would still be dirt poor in the hood. Now I have to admit that given the lack of ambition I’ve seen in many poor people, that a good number of people would be perfectly happy with the status quo, but not everyone. Some want to be successful. They want a reason to believe that tomorrow will be better then today. They want to pursue happiness – which could mean just sitting around enjoying one’s status quo, or it could mean something more.

Of course the "agenda of the People" is such a general idea that it may be near impossible to actually define it exactly.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 4:20 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So in your opinion the agenda of the people is to maintain the status quo in their lives. I agree that not being robbed and molested is a good thing, but as a member of the People, if this was all I wanted I would still be dirt poor in the hood. Now I have to admit that given the lack of ambition I’ve seen in many poor people, that a good number of people would be perfectly happy with the status quo, but not everyone. Some want to be successful. They want a reason to believe that tomorrow will be better then today. They want to pursue happiness – which could mean just sitting around enjoying one’s status quo, or it could mean something more.

Of course the "agenda of the People" is such a general idea that it may be near impossible to actually define it exactly.

I think what is true is that "the people" expect a certain stability in their institutions and systems and become disturbed if that status quo is threatened. You can see that in the "not in my backyard" mentality in many suburbs. Adaption to change requires work and resources so minimising unnescessary change is certainly a priority of *most* of the people. That is why in the delaration of independence they talk about how reluctant people are to throw off a system of government long established, even when they view it guilty of persecution. To get folks to accept change it's often nescessary to show that doing nothing is not an option because left to their own devices society will tend to do nothing.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 4:28 AM

FIVVER

Quote:

from the link Frem posted:

the obliteration of the moronic, sociopathic American myth that individuality and personal rights supersede the well-being of the collective

and from his next post:
He will inform you that he enjoys the fruits of his labor, under his own fig-tree, with his wife and children around him, in peace and security.

I would be truly fascinated at the logic (sic) process you use to reconcile these two statements. Instead of hitting people with books you might try reading them.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 7:26 AM

Not at all necessary, I flat stated that I did not agree with his assessment, did I not ?

I just felt he raised some salient points that oughta be raised, is all.

As far as success goes Finn - what the heck is wrong with it ?

Exploitation now, if you make your success by either ripping people off, or imploring the state to assist you in shifting other peoples assets to YOUR pockets (in and of itself you could call that a form of socialism) via forced and protected monopolies like vehicle insurance, that's a whole different ball of wax, mind.

But if you make a good product folks need and want, and are willing to pay your price for, then make a nice chunk of change on it - ain't a damned thing wrong with that, and wouldn't it be nice to actually get to keep it instead of agents of the state grabbing a chunk on every sale, another chunk when you pocket it, another chunk when you sock it away, another chunk every year just cause you have it, and yet another on top of that for every bit of value it gains, all the while DEvaluing it with the stealth tax of inflation ?

There's the rub, when most folks say "Capitalism" what they MEAN is "Exploitive Government-Protected/Assisted Racket" or sheer, rampant unchecked greed at the expense of others while hiding behind agents of the state to protect them from the consequences - this form of so-called Capitalism is outright ruinous to all involved, because as I pointed out above, the very self-same agents of the state will bend YOU over the sawhorse too, every chance they get.

I may not be an economist, but even I can see the idiocy of such a system - the state and it's agents produce nothing, and yet take and take, and most of the taking is wasted on things that benefit the state, often at the expense of the very folk they were taken from.

It comes full circle, and once you start involving the state and it's agents in the process, the resultant effect of either socialism or capitalism is downright screwery of everyone involved, to the benefit of the state.

What "The People" want, is to enjoy what they have, and believe you me, without the endless interference of the state, I would probably make 2-3 times what I do now, and have to work less hours to get it.

AND I wouldn't be so damned annoyed at watching them take from me, and use it on programs to my detriment - case in point, them using all those tax dollars to give the scummiest, slimiest, worst cab company in this state a no-bid contract with a massive advance, making a mockery of anything resembling competition around here.

Our current system, while lauded by the ignorant as Free Market Capitalism, is nothing of the sort, not when corporations (via corporate personhood, yet another tangle of this issue) use their resources to bend agents of the state to enforce their will by writing and bending laws for their benefit, something that in the end can and will result in corpo-facism muchlike Mussolini practiced.

Either extreme is detrimental, and in either extreme it is not the businesses themselves that become the direct opponent of the people, but rather the state and it's agents.

I dunno if that's as clear as I am trying to make it, but it was worth a try to write.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, July 27, 2007 7:38 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"it is not the businesses themselves that become the direct opponent of the people"

Read about 'company towns'. They don't teach it in US history anymore.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, July 27, 2007 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

There's the rub, when most folks say "Capitalism" what they MEAN is "Exploitive Government-Protected/Assisted Racket" or sheer, rampant unchecked greed at the expense of others while hiding behind agents of the state to protect them from the consequences - this form of so-called Capitalism is outright ruinous to all involved, because as I pointed out above, the very self-same agents of the state will bend YOU over the sawhorse too, every chance they get.

I think a lot of folk are either in denial of these realities or accept them as actual okay practices...

Chrisisall

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Friday, July 27, 2007 8:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The agenda of the people...

Unlike business (which has a predictable agenda) pesky people who insist on having some members three standard deviations from the norm cannot be catagorized into a single group or agenda. But I think it's fair to say what MOST people need and want:

Shelter, food, water, and safety.
A chance to secure to above for themselves and their group.
Cooperative social interactions.
Freedom and justice.

It's possible to innovate, invent, produce, sell, save, and trade without capitalism. Why, people have been doing that for millenia. LONG before capitalism came into existance. We don't need it.

What capitalism is about is the glorification of greed. What some people call "Freedom To...". That invariably conflicts with what most people want "Freedom From". Freedom from being stuck in a system where you have no power, no control over your destiny, and freedom from your life-blood being sucked away by that system.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 9:07 AM