Despite what doom/gloomers say, economy roars on. by AURaptor

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn- are you going to come out and play?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, March 26, 2007 12:46 PM

TELCOD

I believe that every corporation in America in fact around the world has my best interest at heart and is truly interested in the environment. That they would be personally upset if I have to eat out of a dumpster. All we need to do is get those 3rd world 12 year olds to work 14 hours a day instead of 12 hours and our way of life will flurish for another 2 or three years. More if we send our own 12 year olds out to help.

Sign the petition or fadehttp:// www.petitionspot.com/petitions/bringbackfirefly Captain B

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Monday, March 26, 2007 4:29 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- are you going to come out and play?

Well, you have to look at this from my point of view. I’m very busy, so when I get involved in a debate, I like for it to be about something interesting. Now I find the economy interesting, but I don’t find anything interest about listening to people rag on their own political grievances. I spent much of this thread going around and around in circles with Citizen, only to have him confirm exactly what I said would happen in the beginning. Essentially the economy is just a metaphor for peoples’ sociopolitical grievances. If you’re an anti-Capitalist, like Citizen, the US economy will never be good because it’s not what you want to hear. If you hate Bush, the economy will never be good, because such a thing might reflect well on Bush. It would be nice to have a discussion about the economy, but what are the odds that it would actually be about the economy?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, March 26, 2007 5:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

But I've been so good about staying on-topic. So what would you like to talk about?

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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:34 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- are you going to come out and play?
Well, you have to look at this from my point of view. I’m very busy, so when I get involved in a debate, I like for it to be about something interesting. Now I find the economy interesting, but I don’t find anything interest about listening to people rag on their own political grievances. I spent much of this thread going around and around in circles with Citizen, only to have him confirm exactly what I said would happen in the beginning. Essentially the economy is just a metaphor for peoples’ sociopolitical grievances. If you’re an anti-Capitalist, like Citizen, the US economy will never be good because it’s not what you want to hear. If you hate Bush, the economy will never be good, because such a thing might reflect well on Bush. It would be nice to have a discussion about the economy, but what are the odds that it would actually be about the economy?

In other words you agree with finn or he gets to call you this or that and dismiss anything you say out of hand and you're not worth talking to. Thank you Finn.

So it's fair to say that since you're pro-Capitalism the US-economy, nor any aspect of it WILL never be bad, because it's not what you want to hear.

For someone who hasn't much time to post you sure have a lot of time to make personal statements on other posters

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:26 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Home defaults swamp counselors, followed by:

Consumer confidence drops in March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_bi_ge/economy;_ylt=AraHuflr1
4DYGiGR_X5Mp1jMWM0F

Stocks fall on weak housing report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street;_ylt
=AkAmiIzl4qCjH17TfMvvbTnMWM0F

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:36 AM

So consumer confidence is dropping and the housing market is cooling. If these are the two indicators being used to gauge the health of the economy, than I guess the economy was 'roaring on' back at the outset of this thread. So what was all the arguing about?

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:44 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Posting to stir stuff up."

Actually, the initial post was about the stock market, not the housing market and consumer confidence. So, yeah, it's quite evident you're only posting as a troll and not posting facts.

Most of the dispute was about getting people to stake their opinions on specific markers rather than shift from one to the next. Evading whatever was down and focusing on whatever was up that day..

Personally, my markers have always been percentage in poverty and wages. A GOOD economy floats all boats. If en masse people are getting poorer, how good can the economy be?

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Actually, the initial post was about the stock market, not the housing market and consumer confidence. So, yeah, it's quite evident you're only posting as a troll and not posting facts.

So why are you providing links regarding the housing market and consumer confidence?

Quote:

Most of the dispute was about getting people to stake their opinions on specific markers rather than shift from one to the next. Evading whatever was down and focusing on whatever was up that day..

Please see my above question.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:03 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Cause the original poster then shifted ground, again, to include them. So why are YOU posting about them, seeing as they weren't "at the outset of this thread" (as you claimed)?

Please see my question, above.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BTW, if you don't want people calling you a troll, you better stop advertising yourself as one, as in: "Posting to stir stuff up."

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Which is why I persistently tried to get Auraptor to define what he considers "the economy". He hopped from one indicator to the next. He left the thread rather than (I speculate) enter into a substantive discussion.

But the question "What is the economy?" is worthy of a PhD dissertation and could sustain a lengthy and lively debate. I personally would like to talk about "the economy" because it's a hobby of mine, and because I always learn something new from discussions here (provided the topic doesn't degenerate into a flame war.)

And yes "Posting to stir stuff up" is a troll's motto. Might want to reconsider your signature.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Cause the original poster then shifted ground, again, to include them. So why are YOU posting about them, seeing as they weren't "at the outset of this thread" (as you claimed)?

Because, most recently in this thread, you and SignyM started to use housing and consumer confidence as your economic indicators. If both are now dropping as you state, than both must have been in a better postion at this thread's outset, hence a 'better economy'. You, in effect, legitimized the original point of this thread. That was why I asked what all the previous arguing was about.

And call me troll all you like, it matters not to me. We are what we do, not how other's perceive us. At least I'm up front about my intentions.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Whatever.

What I'm trying to get going is a discussion on what indicators we should choose to take the pulse of "the economy". But the indicators that we choose say a lot about what we think "the economy" SHOULD be doing, which is rooted in our ideological views.

For example, if you were to chose the stock market as one of fundamental indicators, it means that you think of "investors" as the appropriate focus of economic activity because "investment" is a primary driving force. Investment is important because it is the engine that eventually creates a better life for all.

That's one theory.

What's yours?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:49 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I already said mine - percent in poverty and working wages. It's rooted in the view that the economy is a human construct made to serve people. Seems simple and common-sense enough to me.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
That's one theory.

What's yours?

Gross Domestic Product.
http://www.bea.gov/

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Anyway, I'm gone for the next week.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So in your view, "production" is what an economy should be doing. However, GDP is not a good measure of "standard of living". For example, an economy that produces a lot but exports nearly all of its production would have a low standard of living. Given that, do you still think GDP is a good measure of "the economy", and why?

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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey Rue- safe flight. Hope things are good at the other end. Let me know.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So in your view, "production" is what an economy should be doing. However, GDP is not a good measure of "standard of living". For example, an economy that produces a lot but exports nearly all of its production would have a low standard of living.

GDP has it's uses to measure standard of living but I agree it is not the best indicator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp
GDP per capita is often used as an indicator of standard of living in an economy. While this approach has advantages, many criticisms of GDP focus on its use as a sole indicator of standard of living.
The major advantages to using GDP per capita as an indicator of standard of living are that it is measured frequently, widely and consistently; frequently in that most countries provide information on GDP on a quarterly basis (which allows a user to spot trends more quickly), widely in that some measure of GDP is available for practically every country in the world (allowing crude comparisons between the standard of living in different countries), and consistently in that the technical definitions used within GDP are relatively consistent between countries, and so there can be confidence that the same thing is being measured in each country.
The major disadvantage of using GDP as an indicator of standard of living is that it is not, strictly speaking, a measure of standard of living. GDP is intended to be a measure of particular types of economic activity within a country. Nothing about the definition of GDP suggests that it is necessarily a measure of standard of living. For instance, in an extreme example, a country which exported 100 per cent of its production would still have a high GDP, but a very poor standard of living.
The argument in favour of using GDP is not that it is a good indicator of standard of living, but rather that (all other things being equal) standard of living tends to increase when GDP per capita increases. This makes GDP a proxy for standard of living, rather than a direct measure of it. GDP per capita can also be seen as a proxy of labor productivity. As the productivity of the workers increases, employers must compete for them by paying higher wages. Conversely, if productivity is low, then wages must be low or the businesses will not be able to make a profit.

Quote:

Given that, do you still think GDP is a good measure of "the economy", and why?

I do, because GDP takes more than just production into consideration. GDP also includes consumption and differentiates between net exports and imports. The GDP formula is fairly standardized worldwide so 'apples to apples' comparisons can be made.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I had to look up how GDP is calculated. (See? I SAID I learned a lot here!) GDP tries real hard not to "double count", as would be the case if you counted production AND consumption. It can either be counted as production OR consumption.

We can measure GDP either by adding up all the money spent by all individuals, the expenditures approach, or by adding up all the money made by all individuals, the income approach. The expenditures approach adds all personal spending, all investment (investment meaning money spent on the things that produce like machines and buildings, etc.), and government spending, and net exports (exports minus imports). The income approach involves adding up all private income. It adds all the money that people earn (which does not count things like government help, etc.) and profits made by companies.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004323/low/basics4.html

ALSO

GDP measures production, not exchange.... {but} GDP is represented as the sum of consumer spending, housing and business investment, net exports, and government purchases. Behind this accounting facade lurks the truth: GDP is generated by individual labor combined with both proprietors' and business capital, raw materials, energy, and technology in a myriad of different industries. The Bureau of Economic Analysis (the agency within the Department of Commerce that is responsible for GDP statistics) does show these relationships in the input-output tables and in the GDP-by-industry data tables (now produced annually).
http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/GrossDomesticProduct.html

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway, I'm gone for the next week.

Thank god. Is it possible to request a plane crash, I'll take inbound or outbound........

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:20 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap,

How 'bout that economy, eh ?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070815/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/home_sales; _ylt=A0WTUcPTFsNGaSwAXQys0NUE
Existing home sales fall in 41 states

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070815/pl_nm/usa_economy_poll_dc; _ylt=AiU5hNYd6bCkUqGh_ke05IOs0NUE
Voters cooling on economic outlook: poll

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070815/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc; _ylt=Aqf7SPS.0MKUbolk5TQ_Qq6s0NUE
The Dow industrials have lost nearly 1,000 points in just four weeks

"It was in http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20100 where you claimed consumer confidence, existing homes sales and consumer spending, were the marks of a strong economy. SignyM pressed pretty hard for a definitive list from you that you would stick with. After a long, long time you shifted ground citing consumer confidence (again) 'the rate of growth' and the unemployment. When SignyM asked you about your new criteria, you bobbed and weaved, shifted the discussion to how much money (a few) people made during the Great Depression, China's and India's strong economies, threw some kind of slur on Europe, and well, completely abandoned the topic. That was your last point on the issue, on April 29. Only to post a WHOLE NEW THREAD ON THE SAME TOPIC (this one) just two days later.

In this one you shift ground yet agin to the stock markets.

So consumer confidence falls, the market falls, existing home sales fall, and you ... refuse to address the very items you launched.

Why is that?"

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thanks Rue. Auraptor has an MO, and that is to bring up a topic, get thoroughly discredited on it and disappear from the thread, only to bring it up again later/ elsewhere. That's why the first thing I did when Auraptor brought up "real growth" (once again) in the "Chiquita banana" thread was to ask him HOW he defined growth. As soon as I asked, he dropped the topic. He probably had bad memeories of being asked detailed questions and being unable to answer.

I've been in his shoes, defending heartfelt positions aginst people who were older and way more politically sophisticated, feeling like I was being misunderstood and misinterpreted at every turn. I can't tell you the number of time But you know what I mean! crossed my lips. But I learned a lot of things- among other things, that what I felt deeply was sometimes quite mistaken.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:12 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, I brought this up partly to mess with Rap a little, and partly b/c a similar topic (currency) has come up.

The problem with the way the government is running is not JUST about currency. It's about government spending way out of control going from a surplus to a record deficit in under 4 years. It's about the US economy now able to be extorted by both China and Japan, who own the currency. It's about sweet-deals paid by tax dollars for preferred companies and sectors while the rest - California, minority home owners, people with crushing medical debts, veterans - get shafted. I have to say that's one thing the republicans have done well - they've picked their victims and kept the damage relatively isolated from the 'rest' of society so that most people --- don't give a crap. It's about fudging the books - putting Iraq spending into the "emergency spending bill" year after year rather than in the budget. It's about a failing infrastructure being sold off to foreign interests b/c taxes are considered the greatest evil while greed is the greatest good.

The current US administration and cronies are not so slowly taking the country's economy apart for their own benefit.

Oh, and I thought this from SignyM was worth repeating.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29694
We're rapidly advancing to third-world status. I know my persistent anti-corporatism prolly bugs a lot of Libertarians, but you know what? Business has had it's shot for decades, especially in health care. With four times as many lobbysists as Congressmen, they've had all the opportunity to create an efficient shining model of free enterprise, and all they've done is prove that venality, corruption, ineffectiveness and greed doesn't work.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:27 AM

How about Sentinel Group freezing it's 1.5 Billion dollar fund, because everyone is trying to sell and there are no buyers...All because of the credit crunch....Gotta love when markets are artificially inflated to look good. They will always correct themselves, letting the truth be known...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:28 AM

MALBADINLATIN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

Ummmm....what the (explative) year is this anyway?.....godless communism??.

Also...I'm not blaming anyone else for my choices, I'm educated, and I work hard at the best job I could find, but if communism were implemented now it would be a raise for me. I'm on the poor side of that rich poor gap. I bet a lawyer such as yourself is not. Forgive me if I don't lend a ton of credibility to your attempt to minimize said rich poor gap

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:31 AM

"This economy needs something to step up and lead it forward and it looks like the export sector has become the savior" - Joel Narof, chief economist @ Naroff economic Advisers.

Commenting on the 705 billion dollar trade deficit....I'm I the only one that finds this hilarious...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Eh, no. But I'm laughing and crying at the same time....

This topic needs a new thread.

But I won't forget you, Auraptor. *sigh*
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"This economy needs something to step up and lead it forward and it looks like the export sector has become the savior" ... well, yeah ! - look at all the industries and jobs being exported.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:29 PM

America loves a winner!

You dig up a post started over a fucking year ago ? Man, that's desperate. Very desperate.

Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know...

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:37 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

mmnnn .. dbl ...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:37 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Just following up on something you ran away from, b/c the topic came up again.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:44 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just following up on something you ran away from, b/c the topic came up again.

You truely are a neurotic fuck. No offense. I didn't 'run away' from anything. After wasting 1/2 a day, and now 3 days removed still, yo'ure talking in circles over basically nothing, I'm realizing you're more than a bit obsessed.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:16 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You never did address the questions that were posted to you about the metrics of a "roaring economy". And now that the metrics you were shifting between have crashed, you've avoided the topic completely (economy topics in "... and other outrages").

So, as long as we're exchanging personal pleasantries, does that make you a confused, 'effed-up coward ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know

Auraptor, I can't tell which sucks worse: your arithmetic or your logic. Have you ever attempted to balance a checkbook? Do you suppose it's possible that, while receiving the same or less income you could go into debt more than you have ever gone into debt before? Nah..... it'd never happen.....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:57 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You never did address the questions that were posted to you about the metrics of a "roaring economy". And now that the metrics you were shifting between have crashed, you've avoided the topic completely (economy topics in "... and other outrages").

So, as long as we're exchanging personal pleasantries, does that make you a confused, 'effed-up coward ?

Confused ? Hell yeah, because there's no question this economy has been doing very well. That you have to go back to dig up a post from 15 months ago to finally spin in your favor, NOW, is pretty fucked up.

You sure seem caught up on the coward thing a bit. Seems that's far more telling of you than anyone else.

btw...exactly how much time did you waste scrolling though past posts to dig up this thread ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:00 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know
Auraptor, I can't tell which sucks worse: your arithmetic or your logic. Have you ever attempted to balance a checkbook? Do you suppose it's possible that, while receiving the same or less income you could go into debt more than you have ever gone into debt before? Nah..... it'd never happen.....

Superlatives, son. Larger economy allows for a bigger defecit, but that defecit will be a smaller % of the budget. It's all been said before, and if you want to play that game again, have at it. I'm done w/ this merry-go-round.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:13 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"because there's no question this economy has been doing very well ----"

housing down in 41 states, DOW off 1000, low voter confidence - these aren't from months ago, they're from the week. You have a funny idea about what a good economy is.

How do YOU explain a "good economy" with those stats ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:59 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"because there's no question this economy has been doing very well ----"

housing down in 41 states, DOW off 1000, low voter confidence - these aren't from months ago, they're from the week. You have a funny idea about what a good economy is.

How do YOU explain a "good economy" with those stats ?

Dumbass, look at when this thread was started. 16 months ago.

And you never did answer my question about how long it took you to find this thread again, so you must be an effing coward too.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:29 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"And you never did answer my question about how long it took you to find this thread again"

Less than a minute. I know how to do efficient searches.

So to YOU it doesn't matter that the economy is tanking now ? Is that what you're implying ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Superlatives, son. Larger economy allows for a bigger defecit, but that defecit will be a smaller % of the budget. It's all been said before, and if you want to play that game again, have at it. I'm done w/ this merry-go-round.

Because what you just said doesn't make any sense, either generally or specifically.

It's possible to have a smaller income but record debt AND record percentage of debt at the same time. But why argue about "coulda"? Thanks to the chart you so nicely linked (but didn't read) I can see a few trends:

www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=200

Except for the 30's and 40's THE Federal deficit, as a percent of GDP, was higher in the REPUBLICAN years and highest at 6% under that Republican hero Ronnie Reagan

The ONLY President to have a surplus since 1960 was a Democrat (Clinton)

For all the fuss that Republicans make about lowering taxes, it is Democrats who take the smaller percentage of GDP as taxes, and Clinton who took the smallest percentage in 40 years, at 16.5% of GDP.

As a percent of GDP, George Bush is neither the biggest spender not the biggest debtor. However, he is the only President to create a 5% of GDP increase in debt during his tenure.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

bump for Rap. Because artithmetic still works..

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Always look upstream.

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:18 AM

Midday, DOW off another 165 at this time...Roar on..

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:35 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There's a certain irony to Auraptor's original statment about this economy being on fire. Yep, its roaring like a bonfire.

Carry on.

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Saw THAT comin'.

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Down 250 now ... fascinating - like watching a train wreck.

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Midday, DOW off another 165 at this time...Roar on..

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:59 AM

New York Stock Exchange.

"After the numbers from the Philly Fed came out, the Nasdaq erased all its gains for the year."

Roar on.....

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:04 AM