Meanwhile, in Zimbabwe... by Geezer

We ain't the world police.

That bein said, if it bothers folk so much, instead of shovelling more money and resources in that'll be confiscated and misused by the ruling regime, gather up some donations and put some Ak-47's in the hands of the locals - and then stand back as they correct the situation internally.

Will it be bloody ? sure.
In comparison to the amount of blood shed already, however, probably not.

It's not up to us to fix the worlds problems, it's up to the people under the lash, and if they will not do it, then there is no help we can offer that'll change that very much.

You can't ram 'freedom' down someones throat on a bayonet.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
We ain't the world police.

That bein said, if it bothers folk so much, instead of shovelling more money and resources in that'll be confiscated and misused by the ruling regime, gather up some donations and put some Ak-47's in the hands of the locals - and then stand back as they correct the situation internally.

Will it be bloody ? sure.
In comparison to the amount of blood shed already, however, probably not.

No, That would make you terrorist supporters ??

" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Run to the hills run for your lives "

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12

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Monday, August 20, 2007 2:25 AM

Quote:
No, That would make you terrorist supporters ??

So were the French in 1777.

-F

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Monday, August 20, 2007 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

ARRRRGHHH! Make we wanna rip some heads off.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, August 20, 2007 11:57 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
gather up some donations and put some Ak-47's in the hands of the locals - and then stand back as they correct the situation internally.

Once again, thank you.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Monday, August 20, 2007 1:08 PM

So if somebody else does it, they should be able to right?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2D06A033-A9AC-4C13-B534-5C6EDD8
E0BD4.htm

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Monday, August 20, 2007 1:51 PM

I don't have a problem with it - but hell, you already know that I think everyone on the planet should have an assault rifle and six clips for it.

Only people should be scared of that are tyrants, cause most folk ain't political till politics steps in their front yard and starts taking from them - it's only when the yoke becomes too heavy to carry anymore that they'll take up arms and use em.

-F

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Monday, August 20, 2007 1:58 PM

How about this:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6E10D1C0-5064-494E-8DD9-93C38A3
DC443.htm

The battle of Serenity Valley, today...

70 guys and they need an airforce to bomb them out ?

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Monday, August 20, 2007 4:13 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How about this:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6E10D1C0-5064-494E-8DD9-93C38A3
DC443.htm
70 guys and they need an airforce to bomb them out ?

So if the Lebanese army gets a couple hundred of their troops killed or maimed assaulting dug-in positions manned by fanatics due to lack of proper artillery and air bombardment, that's all right with you? You're sure profligate with other people's lives. Why don't you run down to Lebanon and clean that problem up yourself?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 20, 2007 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How about this:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6E10D1C0-5064-494E-8DD9-93C38A3
DC443.htm
70 guys and they need an airforce to bomb them out ?

So if the Lebanese army gets a couple hundred of their troops killed or maimed assaulting dug-in positions manned by fanatics due to lack of proper artillery and air bombardment, that's all right with you? You're sure profligate with other people's lives. Why don't you run down to Lebanon and clean that problem up yourself?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Actually I'm applauding the courage of the seventy guys holding out for 11 weeks of artillery bombardment, against a force at least 10 times their number. Fanatics because they dont give in huh,

Sorry Geezer all hail the mighty frigging Alliance.... not

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Monday, August 20, 2007 5:57 PM

That's one of the things I tried to explain to folk before we even stuck our nose in Afghanistan, much less Iraq...

As a general rule, one the Russians learned to their detriment, as many have before them, a middle-easterner will NOT throw in the towel on his home ground, ever, ever - they'll go on to the last bullet, spit a curse at you over the sights of their empty rifle, then hunker down with a grenade and a knife and wait for you to come get em - you shell em, bomb em, they just dig deeper, and even if/when you finally pay the butchers bill to dig them out, you can never be sure how many slipped away in the night to come back at you another day.

Unless you are prepared to quite literally, kill every single living thing upon it, you do not take turf in the middle east - they got nowhere to retreat TO, a lot of em, not to mention being THE most stubborn jackasses on the planet when it comes to foreign invasion.

Which brings you down to essentially two options, negotiation, or massacre, both of which have a long traditional history in the region, and in the case of the latter, you must be prepared to pay dearly to get it done and even then you'd best damn well make SURE you got every last one and every last descendant, or you'll pay for it later.

They are not americans, they do not think like americans, they do not act like americans, and any presumption based on those assumptions is foolish at best.

A lack of cultural understanding has severely hampered our efforts over there more than ANY other factor, and it's one we could, and should, correct as soon as possible - we don't have to agree with em, but to negotiate with em, or even fight em effectively, we have to understand them enough to do so... and we don't.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 20, 2007 6:14 PM

Hey Frem,

You ever read the story of Hiro Onada ?

quite a story, I think you'd like it.

On this topic, the more you understand the enemy here, the more you think hold on, they do have legit beefs and no other way to do anything about it.

Thats the tragedy, it all could have been avoided but for some pig headed arseholes who are now cheering the war from the sidelines.

Geezer invited me to go to Lebanon, screw that... I'm waiting for the frigging Yanks to come up here. Then I hope to cause them as much grief as those boys are. Maybe some of them will be sitting in an internet cafe cheering me on.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:06 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Actually I'm applauding the courage of the seventy guys holding out for 11 weeks of artillery bombardment, against a force at least 10 times their number.

I suspect that the Palistinian refugees they used as human shields might have a different opinion of their courage. At least the ones still alive. The 30,000 or so folks who had to flee the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp might also not consider them worthy of applause.

Here's a profile of your heroes.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9F412C30-0DBB-4933-9C69-9CB5526
CE911.htm

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:19 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

And back to the original thread...

looks like a quarter of Zimbabwe's population has already fled the country, and the UN expects the flood of refugees to increase.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6956383.stm

Too bad the leaders of southern Africa can't see that their old revolutionary buddy Mugabe has gone over to the dark side.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:16 AM

It's hilarious to watch you bitch about Muggy, Geeze, and how he treats the Zimbies....

And yet hold the position you do when folks with nowhere else to run to in the middle east, stand up to folk just like him.

How do you reconcile that ?

Would you be bitching the same if the Zimbies, instead of running, formented a terrorist bombing and sabotage campaign against Muggy ?

It doesn't make sense, Geeze, what's your angle here ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:44 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's hilarious to watch you bitch about Muggy, Geeze, and how he treats the Zimbies....

And yet hold the position you do when folks with nowhere else to run to in the middle east, stand up to folk just like him.

How do you reconcile that ?

Easy.

First off, the government of Lebanon has nothing in common with that of Mugabe, what with the Lebanese govt. being freely elected, not running the economy into the dirt, not having a quarter of the population leave the country just to find something to eat, etc.

Second, Fatah al-Islam is hardly the people of Lebanon, having about 200 members, mostly from outside the country. These guys are so far out of the box that even the main Fatah organization disavows any connection(see the Al Jazeera article above). Quoting Wiki, "According to Reuters, Fatah al-Islam's primary goals are to institute Islamic law in Palestinian refugee camps and to target Israel". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_al-Islam

Quote:
Would you be bitching the same if the Zimbies, instead of running, formented a terrorist bombing and sabotage campaign against Muggy?

As opposed to the terror campaign Mugabe is using against the Zimbabwean people? what with the forced relocations, distribution of food based on party loyalty, etc.? I'd rather see the people kick the bastard out and get a government that doesn't use starvation as a political weapon.

Quote:
It doesn't make sense, Geeze, what's your angle here ?

Couple of angles.

1. Since the governments in Africa don't want outside interference in what they consider African affairs, it would be nice if they would do something themselves about the disaster building in Zimbabwe. I'm disappointed that they won't bring the slightest pressure on Mugabe to do anything to prevent this trainwreck.

2. I disagree with your and Gino's praise of Fatah al-Islam as brave rebels standing up against a corrupt government, since I don't consider the Lebanese government that corrupt (certainly not in comparison to Zimbabwe's), or a 200 person organization of mostly non-Lebanese jihadists (as noted in both Al Jazeera and Wiki articles) to represent the Lebanese people.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:01 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Southern Africa's strongmen, presidents-for-life, and dictators give their fellow tyrant Robert Mugabe another pass."

Looking up these states in the CIA World Factbook:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Angola - elections
Botswana - parliamentary republic
Democratic Republic of Congo- democratically elected government
Lesotho- democratic parliamentary elections
Madagascar - democratic elections
Malawi - democratic elections
Mauritius - stable democracy
Mozambique - elections
Namibia - democratic elections
South Africa - democratic elections
Swaziland - kingdom
United Republic of Tanzania - democratic elections w/ voting irregularities
Zambia - 2006 election declared free and fair
Zimbabwe - rigged elections

-----------------------------------

From SADC (the countries that met):
http://www.sadc.int/

The Member States are Angola, Botswana, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, United Republic of Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

SADC headquarters are located in Gaborone, Botswana.

-----------------------------------

To be sure, many of these countries have had dictators, strongmen, coups etc since independence in the 1960's. But currently most are struggling their way to making democracy the norm.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:08 AM

Fair enough assessment, Geeze - I think the way to deal with folks like that is more civvie militias of equally devoted folk rather than artillery, for obvious tactical reason, and if one can muster a superior force thereof from the locals, well then the locals don't support em, it's as simple as that.

I think trying to bribe Muggy with aid packages has proven to be a total bust, and in lieu of the carrot, it's time for the stick - now, I do NOT see it as our business or worthy of our tax dollars as it is outside our borders, you understand...

But if individual folks wanted to put arms in the hands of Zimby locals who were willing to try throwing him out, I wouldn't gainsay that.

We tried blockade running in Biafra, a ways back, with food, in a similar situation and it just did not work, so there's no real reason to believe it might in this case, maybe by sea, but that doesn't look too viable either.

The simplest way to get rid of a cabal like Muggies is to go around to the locals, slap assault rifles in their hands and tell em..
"You want him out ? YOU throw him out - good luck with that, and all."

Any other way and folks wind up resenting your intervention more than the dictator you just toppled, they want freedom, they have to TAKE it, and be willing and able to pay the heavy price to do so - or they're never keep it and will in fact resent you for shoving it down their throat.

I guess it's kinda cliche to say justice flows from the barrel of a weapon, but historically, it really does, in the end.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:28 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The simplest way to get rid of a cabal like Muggies is to go around to the locals, slap assault rifles in their hands and tell em..
"You want him out ? YOU throw him out - good luck with that, and all."

Your answer to everything these days it seems. You don't see any problems with doing that?

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 2:59 PM

Quote:
Your answer to everything these days it seems. You don't see any problems with doing that?

I see a lot of em, whether that's worse than what we got ? doubt it.

Sure, it means setting up puppet dictators to run other countries for the benefit of american corps isn't gonna happen no more, but in light of recent events, that program is wholly unworkable in the long term anyway.

Does it mean that some folk will put up with a tyrant rather than cause the violence and bloodshed necessary to evict em ? sure - but that's not OUR business or jurisdiction.

Does it mean some of them folk are gonna kill each OTHER ? yeah, that happens, hell it happened here on a mass scale in the 1860s, and it happens on a small scale every day in any major city.

Does it mean some of those weapons might be pointed at us ?
Well why are we in someone elses country militarily when we have no business being there in the first place ?

Trade, sure - diplomacy and negotiation, sure - mutual tours for citizens of each others country to foster understanding, sure... military conquest, hell no.

Governments don't solve nothin, they're just a framework to allow larger and larger collectives of folk to operate without gettin in each others way, and they're piss poor at that, even - PEOPLE solve things, it's a fact.

If a Tyrants own population will not throw him down and cast him out, there's really nothing an external force can do but kinda nudge it along - which is how it should be, much as I can't stand the high chimperator, if the russians were to come here militarily, arrest bush and have him shot at down, I'd kill every fekkin russian on american soil till there weren't none left, dealin with an unwanted leader is the business of he population he's intending to lead, and no one elses.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:19 PM

LEADB

Um, be sure that they shoot Cheney first. But yeh, off the dang russians who do that!

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:15 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
To be sure, many of these countries have had dictators, strongmen, coups etc since independence in the 1960's. But currently most are struggling their way to making democracy the norm.

Look a bit deeper at the CIA world fact book and you'll note that the elected heads of state of several of these countries are the first one they've ever had, and most are in their first term. Mugabe was democratically elected before he decided to slip back to dictator mode. The fact that the leaders of all these newly-minted southern African democracies can't find even a little criticism of someone who's taken a free country back to a de-facto dictatorship doesn't bode well for continued representative government in the region.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:47 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think there's a more going on than that. They don't like western 'intervention' and are trying to forestall it.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:51 AM

Pretty bad when keeping the bloody Americans out of the neighborhood trumps all other consideration, but I think you hit it on the head Rue...

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:50 PM

Quote:
CIA world fact book

That one ranks right up there with "Army Intelligence".

The CIA and Facts ain't even passing aquaintences.

-F

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:29 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think there's a more going on than that. They don't like western 'intervention' and are trying to forestall it.

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Pretty bad when keeping the bloody Americans out of the neighborhood trumps all other consideration, but I think you hit it on the head Rue...

So there's a growing humanitarian and political crisis in Zimbabwe, and SADC is trying to respond to it and forestall western 'intervention' by ... doing nothing? Good plan.

I'm afraid you guys got such a bad case of "It's All America's Fault" that you're incapable of seeing anything without those filters. Zimbabwe is of course an African problem which needs an African solution. I just note that it'd be a lot better for the Zibabweans and the region in general if they at least acknowledged Mugabe as part of the problem and tried something to try and get Zimbabwe back on the democratic track.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:33 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
CIA world fact book

That one ranks right up there with "Army Intelligence".

The CIA and Facts ain't even passing aquaintences.

-F

Just like Wiki, if you use it looking for hard info, not political analysis, it can be pretty useful. If you pull your tinfoil hat down over your left eye, the subliminal messages don't even affect you too much.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:43 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I just note that it'd be a lot better for the Zibabweans and the region in general if they at least acknowledged Mugabe as part of the problem and tried something to try and get Zimbabwe back on the democratic track."

You don't know what's going on privately.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey Frem

I was looking for a site Geezer wouldn't complain about as being radically left-leaning.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:29 AM

ARCLIGHT

"I was looking for a site Geezer wouldn't complain about as being radically left-leaning."

this sure as hell ain't one of 'em.
-------------------------------------------------if liberals read so much how come they don't know anything!

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:41 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I just note that it'd be a lot better for the Zibabweans and the region in general if they at least acknowledged Mugabe as part of the problem and tried something to try and get Zimbabwe back on the democratic track."

You don't know what's going on privately.

True. Privately, the other leaders of SADC countries could be trying to straighten Mugabe out. They might also be asking him for tips on how to rape their own countries. I just have to base my opinion on public actions, statements, etc. rather than supposition.

Zimbabwe isn't a new subject for the SADC. The worsening situation there over the past few years leads me to believe that private lobbying either a)isn't working, or b) has never been used. Maybe it's time that SADC develop a plan B.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:46 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hey Frem

I was looking for a site Geezer wouldn't complain about as being radically left-leaning.

Nationmaster is another good one for me. http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

BBC World and Al Jazeera English usually get the facts straight, if you expect a little editorial bias. AP feeds to local news sites aren't too bad.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:13 PM

I think it's kind of ironic tho, for all our bitchin an personal axes to grind - we DO seem to have reached the consensus that this is an African problem, and Africa needs to solve it, something I call progress, since our direct intervention would likely be disastrous.

Point taken about sources, Geeze, but I couldn't resist that slam on the CIA - any source is useful if properly crosschecked, I just felt the need to mock the folk who indirectly caused a lot of the mess we're in cause of pipedreams of puppetmastering the middle east.

We may disagree about the methods, but I think we've all at least gotten to the point of understanding only Africa can solve Africas problems, and starting with Muggy would be a damned good idea - it gives me to wonder however, as long as they continue to take in refugees, what's Muggy gonna do when he runs out of people to run his little empire ?

It's not necessarily a bad idea to bleed his ass dry of resources in that fashion, cause if he's got no one left BUT his goon squads, who's gonna feed and supply them, ehe ?

Problem with that is where to put all the refugees, my solution would be to arm em and send em back - but that has problems of it's own when it's a government doing it rather than individuals, obviously.

I'm open to suggestions on this one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:25 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's not necessarily a bad idea to bleed his ass dry of resources in that fashion, cause if he's got no one left BUT his goon squads, who's gonna feed and supply them, ehe ?

Why, the western nations will have to do it. Otherwise we'll be blamed for not providing relief for the starving Zimbabweans. How could we be so heartless? Aren't we better than that? Isn't it our responsability to 'give back' a fraction of the wealth we stole?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:13 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FremD

"I'm open to suggestions on this one."

As my African friend says - you (meaning the US) are always so critical of African nations. But they've only been in existence less than 50 years. And even your own country fought a major internal war 100 years after independence. Give us time.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:22 PM

MAZAEN

Quote:
No, That would make you terrorist supporters ??"

Terrorism is about scaring women and children and civilians. Therefore arming the civilians wouldn't be terrorism if the procedure of civil war was followed. Civil war is about civilians scaring the government/ Army and leaving women and children and unarmed civilians out of it the best they can. Would it be successful? I don't think so although if the strategy was successful, Zimbabwe-ans, would probably be carrying around less cash.

The People in Zimbabwe have to carry suitcases of money around to buy 1 loaf of bread because of the inflation. The UN aid may actually not be helping. It may stretch the reign of Magabe out by supporting people and the result being more Zimbabwe-ans suffering for many more years. Taking away UN aid may help. Although considering most UN aid actually goes to funding private 5 star accommodation and perks for the the UN employees and corruption for relatives of UN staff, the disappearing funding would probably not be noticed.

I was quite disgusted that in the recent tsunamis, the UN arrived and spent their first week organising their accommodations and luxuries in their 5 star hotels while military assistance actually helped survivors of the waves. Most of the help needed for the tsunami was required in the first week. Priorities. Priorities.

I'm not saying the UN have never been useful. In fact they have been very good at helping create peace between different countries.

Quote:
we DO seem to have reached the consensus that this is an African problem, and Africa needs to solve it

I don't know if people have to be the same race or background in order to solve a problem.

There are also other wars/ things happening in the world that are receiving media attention at the moment.

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Friday, August 24, 2007 10:41 AM